2076 Seeking the origins of "syncopation" usage differences (was : competition)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:29:53 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Seeking the origins of "syncopation" usage differences (was : competition)
Philip wrote:
>...Syncopation is accenting a normally
>unaccented beat or failing to accent a normally accented beat.
Tom replied:
>>>
Tango has lots of rhythmic decorations. Are they sometimes syncopations by
Philip's clear definition?...If milonga is normally stepped 1-2, 1-2, and we
occasionally insert a tras-pie on the candombe beats in-between, does that
count as syncopation?
<<<
It can be interesting to consider how "syncopation" came to be used so
differently by dancers & musicians, in terms that don't just assume someone
is stupid/wrong, and that look for the underlying truth in each viewpoint.
Tom's comment perhaps reflects a deeper unity between dancers and musicians
on the subject of syncopation that may transcend and include their
terminology differences - namely, "The Expected" and "The Unexpected" are
the common experiences which both dancers and musicians are trying to
describe with the word "syncopation."
Every musician when learning their instrument practices reading/playing both
quarter-notes and eighth-notes. Thus musicians are not particularly
surprised by playing eighth-notes instead of quarter-notes, for example,
because the exercise is considered trivial - and thus "expected" - thus no
syncopation.
Partner dancers, in addition to hearing and feeling the music, also must
manage their instrument (legs/feet) AND their partner's instrument through
the lead/follow dynamic, and manage movement of bodies through space, and
respond in the moment to navigational concerns, etc. Perhaps as a result,
partner dancers do not find doubling the rate of stepping
(Slow-slow-quick-quick-slow, for example) to be nearly so trivial - thus
"unexpected" - thus syncopation.
May each remain "correct" within their sphere, (but stay vigilant at the
boundaries!)
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 05:14:29 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Origins
To: tango-L@mit.edu
As for the evolution of tango and its origins (apropos the remarks of
Konstantine, Sergio, et al)...
I've read various arguments, each of which centers on a different
"pivotal" moment, emphasizing different details to arrive at the desired
historical climax.
Some claim that the dance came first (when treating its urban history),
and that the music developed afterward, to support & encourage the dance.
Others claim that the early city-dance was an import of the gauchos who
moved into (or were at any rate nearby) the city outskirts, and who
influenced the compadritos. And also that the gauchos had campfire
dances, which skewed the (not from the Pampas) habanera into the
earliest milongas.
Others claim that the compadritos were mocking traditional (?) dances of
the blacks.
Others claim that the blacks were the original tango dancers.
Then there's the whole brothel thing, which Borges said not many
aficionados even believed.
So how it started, and who gets the credit, is anyone's guess. The only
verifiable fact seems to be that some schmucks took it to Europe, and
that by the time it came back to Argentina, there were lower-class
people dancing it "old-school," and bourgeois types learning it
new-school Euro style.
THEREFORE...
Since the original export eventually became a different dance (aka
Ballroom)...
And since the re-import clashed with the pre-import, which hardly had a
national character...
... the only viable conclusion, however you slice it, is that the first
_inauthentic_ tango dancers were Argentine.
According to each other, anyway.
I hear the first exporters were idolized in Europe as the genuine
article though.
Spatz
DC
Konstantin Zahariev wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It seems to me that the statements below need some significant qualifiers.
>
>
> On 7/17/07, Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> [...] Little does she know about the history of the dance. That the
>> Argentines on the turn of the last century condemned Tango (and disowning
>> it)and the French welcomed with open arms.
>>
>
>
> That is not true on its face. A more accurate statement would be that
> the _wealthy_ or high society Argentines (i.e. the ones that could
> shape the discussion, the ones with the voice to be heard the loudest
> and recorded) condemned tango (before the French accepted it). This is
> not an insignificant detail. The working class Argentines created
> tango and obviously embraced and liked tango from its beginning. I
> don't think they were less Argentines than the upper class were.
>
>
>
>> That theTango is not an
>> Argentine product, but the product of fusion between afro-Caribbean and
>> European rhythms.
>>
>
>
> Rhythm is only one of several parts of a musical form though. Even so,
> pre-1920 tangos borrowed the Cuban habanera rhythm pattern of
> dotted-eight, sixteenth, eight, eight. However this pattern was
> imported from the slaves in Haiti, and they were brought to Haiti from
> West Africa. I do not know what European rhythms are referred to here
> when we talk about tango (and not vals, for example), but in any case
> the evidence shows that any syncopated rhythm pattern (one example is
> the habanera pattern above) that was imported in "civilized" Europe
> ultimately came from West African and other black people's drum lines.
>
> In fact the theory is that the habanera pattern came as a 3-2 rhythm
> pattern (alternating or mixing 3-long and 2-long rhythm blocks is
> something common in African drum lines) which was something
> incomprehensible, with its implied 5/8 time signature, to western
> Europe. So the sailors and others distorted the 3-long block and
> shortened it to fit into a 2-long block, thus "straightening" the time
> signature into a 2/4 or 4/8 and the pattern into the habanera pattern
> mentioned above. The other consequence was that whenever songs had
> accents or notes on all three eights of the original 3-long block,
> this became a triplet (to fit into 2 eights). Habaneras are filled
> with these triplets, as were very early tangos. See even Bizet's
> Carmen - the famous habanera (which was really Sebastien Yradier's El
> Arreglito habanera that Bizet borrowed thinking it was a folk tune.)
>
> I don't think all this rhythm genealogy business makes tango less
> Argentine or somehow a derivative from Europe. The habanera rhythm
> pattern is not tango.
>
> Rhythm aside, it was Argentines who took, at first, whatever portable
> instruments they had, later the bandoneon and piano and violins of
> different sizes, and created the musical form, and it was Argentines,
> mostly immigrants from Italy and Spain, and others, who created the
> dance form in conventillos.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Konstantin
> Victoria, Canada
>
>
>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 5:14 AM
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] Origins
As for the evolution of tango and its origins (apropos
the remarks of
Konstantine, Sergio, et al)...
I've read various arguments, each of which centers on
a different
"pivotal" moment, emphasizing different details to
arrive at the desired
historical climax.
Some claim that the dance came first (when treating
its urban history),
and that the music developed afterward, to support &
encourage the dance.
Others claim that the early city-dance was an import
of the gauchos who
moved into (or were at any rate nearby) the city
outskirts, and who
influenced the compadritos. And also that the gauchos
had campfire
dances, which skewed the (not from the Pampas)
habanera into the
earliest milongas.
Others claim that the compadritos were mocking
traditional (?) dances of
the blacks.
Others claim that the blacks were the original tango
dancers.
Then there's the whole brothel thing, which Borges
said not many
aficionados even believed.
So how it started, and who gets the credit, is
anyone's guess. The only
verifiable fact seems to be that some schmucks took it
to Europe, and
that by the time it came back to Argentina, there were
lower-class
people dancing it "old-school," and bourgeois types
learning it
new-school Euro style.
THEREFORE...
Since the original export eventually became a
different dance (aka
Ballroom)...
And since the re-import clashed with the pre-import,
which hardly had a
national character...
... the only viable conclusion, however you slice it,
is that the first
_inauthentic_ tango dancers were Argentine.
According to each other, anyway.
I hear the first exporters were idolized in Europe as
the genuine
article though.
Spatz
DC
Konstantin Zahariev wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It seems to me that the statements below need some
significant qualifiers.
>
>
> On 7/17/07, Amaury de Siqueira
<amaurycdsf@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> [...] Little does she know about the history of the
dance. That the
>> Argentines on the turn of the last century
condemned Tango (and disowning
>> it)and the French welcomed with open arms.
>>
>
>
> That is not true on its face. A more accurate
statement would be that
> the _wealthy_ or high society Argentines (i.e. the
ones that could
> shape the discussion, the ones with the voice to be
heard the loudest
> and recorded) condemned tango (before the French
accepted it). This is
> not an insignificant detail. The working class
Argentines created
> tango and obviously embraced and liked tango from
its beginning. I
> don't think they were less Argentines than the upper
class were.
>
>
>
>> That theTango is not an
>> Argentine product, but the product of fusion
between afro-Caribbean and
>> European rhythms.
>>
>
>
> Rhythm is only one of several parts of a musical
form though. Even so,
> pre-1920 tangos borrowed the Cuban habanera rhythm
pattern of
> dotted-eight, sixteenth, eight, eight. However this
pattern was
> imported from the slaves in Haiti, and they were
brought to Haiti from
> West Africa. I do not know what European rhythms are
referred to here
> when we talk about tango (and not vals, for
example), but in any case
> the evidence shows that any syncopated rhythm
pattern (one example is
> the habanera pattern above) that was imported in
"civilized" Europe
> ultimately came from West African and other black
people's drum lines.
>
> In fact the theory is that the habanera pattern came
as a 3-2 rhythm
> pattern (alternating or mixing 3-long and 2-long
rhythm blocks is
> something common in African drum lines) which was
something
> incomprehensible, with its implied 5/8 time
signature, to western
> Europe. So the sailors and others distorted the
3-long block and
> shortened it to fit into a 2-long block, thus
"straightening" the time
> signature into a 2/4 or 4/8 and the pattern into the
habanera pattern
> mentioned above. The other consequence was that
whenever songs had
> accents or notes on all three eights of the original
3-long block,
> this became a triplet (to fit into 2 eights).
Habaneras are filled
> with these triplets, as were very early tangos. See
even Bizet's
> Carmen - the famous habanera (which was really
Sebastien Yradier's El
> Arreglito habanera that Bizet borrowed thinking it
was a folk tune.)
>
> I don't think all this rhythm genealogy business
makes tango less
> Argentine or somehow a derivative from Europe. The
habanera rhythm
> pattern is not tango.
>
> Rhythm aside, it was Argentines who took, at first,
whatever portable
> instruments they had, later the bandoneon and piano
and violins of
> different sizes, and created the musical form, and
it was Argentines,
> mostly immigrants from Italy and Spain, and others,
who created the
> dance form in conventillos.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Konstantin
> Victoria, Canada
>
>
>
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:25:23 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Origins
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com) <spatz@tangoDC.com> writes:
>
> THEREFORE...
>
> Since the original export eventually became a different
> dance (aka Ballroom)...
> And since the re-import clashed with the pre-import, which
> hardly had a national character...
>
> ... the only viable conclusion, however you slice it, is
> that the first _inauthentic_ tango dancers were Argentine.
>
> According to each other, anyway.
An interesting argument were this 1920, perhaps,
but then that primitive coal of a dance went through
decades of crunching in the milongas of Buenos Aires,
the Golden Age, etc., finally emerging as the diamond
we know today as Argentine tango, so to pretend that
that diamond is anything but Argentina's culture is
patent nonsense.
On the other hand, I think it's also nonsense
to think that nobody but an Argentine can dance
"world-class" (whatever that is supposed to mean)
Argentine tango. But tango is Argentine (rioplatense
for the sticklers), and the overwhelming majority of
the best dancers do happen to be Argentines who have
been dancing for many years.
The best teachers are also Argentine. But of
course that does not mean that simply being Argentine
guarantees that you'll be good, far from it.
Huck
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:29:18 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Origins
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600707181029q749f6e02oa40f7c176aa798e2@mail.gmail.com>
Hi,
While many have claims have been made, and we do not really have
copious amounts of primary documents for incontrovertible proof of one
hypothesis over another, I think that we can still (A) identify and
separate obvious biases that got woven into the narrative, as well as
claims that are made to reinforce or conform to the preferred
narrative (B) separate less systematic analyses and famous people's
opinions from more systematic analyses and (C) distill more probable
>from less probable realizations.
In regards to biases and prejudices influencing the narrative, it
seems quite self-evident now that (1) tango originated with the
working classes, and because of that (2) high-society argentines did
not accept it at first because of class prejudice. What the upper
class did then was the usual for the times with their racial and class
prejudices - it claimed that tango is dirty, born in brothels,
practiced by homosexuals, ugly/unseemly dirty scandalous dance, etc. I
am not even saying that they were willfully lying - it must have
seemed that way to them because this is how they saw low class people
- they had to be dirty and into any sin in fashion at the time. BTW,
this was not some peculiarly Argentine behaviour - the same patterns
stemming from racial and/or class prejudices can be seen elsewhere.
Later, when tango was forced on the upper class by Paris, it became
imperative to reject any black influence in it because of racism.
Separately, because Europeans were titillated with 'exoticism', with
'natives' and 'authenticity', whole storylines were invented about
gauchos (being identified with Argentina the most) being the
dancers/creators of tango, and tango performers in Europe were
apparently required or encouraged to dress in what was thought to be
gaucho dresses. Also the pimp/whore or knife-wielding dangerous
man/devoted woman as a dancing couple, which seems to have been
borrowed as a narrative directly from the french 'apache'
dance/performance that also originated within low class people in
Paris at about the same time tango was exported there.
To see how strongly the upper class (Argentines and Europeans)
influenced the narrative, to this day we still hear about tango
described as exotic, sexual, born in brothels (very very unlikely and
frankly nonsensical). It did not help that tango celebrities were
reinforcing or conforming to that over the last few decades - for
example Piazzolla's 'tango is vertical rape', or perhaps he was
quoting a poet or someone else.
So we throw in famous people expressing opinions, quoting poets, or
re-re-re-telling anecdotes found in books that were not systematic
analyses of primary sources as much as one can find them. I am not
saying that oral history is not important - it is extremely valuable,
but it has to be balanced with a systematic investigation whenever
possible.
>>From what I have read, it seems to me the most probable story has the
working class creating tango in conventillos in Buenos Aires, in the
inner yard while socializing in the evening, just like with other
nations that had traditional gatherings every night and almost
everyone could play an instrument or dance or recite a poem or tell a
story, and dances and songs were created, and that's where things were
generally happening..
Of course tango might have been danced (not created) in brothels, just
like other dances were danced there or in US brothels - whatever was
popular, people will dance it.
There seems to be a confusion also about dancing halls versus
brothels, with a tendency to conflate one with the other, which might
be part of establishing the whole 'dancing in brothels' idea to an
extent larger than it might have been happening. Dancing halls (and
dancing) were big everywhere in the world at the time (turn of the
century to the big depression). These came in various configurations,
some with taxi dancers (which was a perfectly respectable profession).
That's apparently who you would give chips to to dance with, with
typically half going to the owner. This seems to have been corrupted
into 'paying a prostitute to dance with at brothels' or at least it
bears a disturbing similarity to it. I am talking here about Europe
and the US, not just Argentina.
As an aside, the term 'gigolo' meant a taxi dancer, and the female
counterpart would be a 'gigolette'. Rudolf Valentino was a gigolo,
i.e. a taxi dancer in a dancing hall, when he was discovered by the
film industry. There is some evidence that 'gigolo' acquired its
'dirty' connotations later, as a result of either (i) some gigolos
branching into expanded services, or especially (ii) the societal
stigma of a man getting paid by women thus his job/profession being
dishonourable, or likely both.
Then there are some confusions in terminology or context.
The milongas before 1930 came in several flavours - most famously the
milonga campera, a slow, 3-3-2 pattern, sung by payadores accompanied
by guitar, but also some 2/4 livelier tunes, yet none of them had
anything to do with the post-1930 milonga as we know it.
However the post-1930 milonga and the pre-1920 tangos share the
habanera rhythm pattern of dotted eight-sixteenth-eight-eight, which
is why Sergio could say that some outside Argentina confuse early
tangos (in pre-1920 arrangement) with post-1930 milongas. This cannot
be an argument about the primacy of milonga, though - at least not
about the milonga as we know it now.
This is my current opinion about various myths and concepts to do with
tango history and influences. It is all subject to correction and
refinement. It is also important to realize that I am not making
absolute claims here. but more in the sense of most likely, or most
supported by systematic analysis or evidence, or most common.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
On 7/18/07, Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com) <spatz@tangodc.com> wrote:
> As for the evolution of tango and its origins (apropos the remarks of
> Konstantine, Sergio, et al)...
>
> I've read various arguments, each of which centers on a different
> "pivotal" moment, emphasizing different details to arrive at the desired
> historical climax.
>
> Some claim that the dance came first (when treating its urban history),
> and that the music developed afterward, to support & encourage the dance.
>
> Others claim that the early city-dance was an import of the gauchos who
> moved into (or were at any rate nearby) the city outskirts, and who
> influenced the compadritos. And also that the gauchos had campfire
> dances, which skewed the (not from the Pampas) habanera into the
> earliest milongas.
>
> Others claim that the compadritos were mocking traditional (?) dances of
> the blacks.
>
> Others claim that the blacks were the original tango dancers.
>
> Then there's the whole brothel thing, which Borges said not many
> aficionados even believed.
>
> So how it started, and who gets the credit, is anyone's guess. The only
> verifiable fact seems to be that some schmucks took it to Europe, and
> that by the time it came back to Argentina, there were lower-class
> people dancing it "old-school," and bourgeois types learning it
> new-school Euro style.
>
> THEREFORE...
>
> Since the original export eventually became a different dance (aka
> Ballroom)...
> And since the re-import clashed with the pre-import, which hardly had a
> national character...
>
> ... the only viable conclusion, however you slice it, is that the first
> _inauthentic_ tango dancers were Argentine.
>
> According to each other, anyway.
>
> I hear the first exporters were idolized in Europe as the genuine
> article though.
>
> Spatz
> DC
>
>
> Konstantin Zahariev wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > It seems to me that the statements below need some significant qualifiers.
> >
> >
> > On 7/17/07, Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> [...] Little does she know about the history of the dance. That the
> >> Argentines on the turn of the last century condemned Tango (and disowning
> >> it)and the French welcomed with open arms.
> >>
> >
> >
> > That is not true on its face. A more accurate statement would be that
> > the _wealthy_ or high society Argentines (i.e. the ones that could
> > shape the discussion, the ones with the voice to be heard the loudest
> > and recorded) condemned tango (before the French accepted it). This is
> > not an insignificant detail. The working class Argentines created
> > tango and obviously embraced and liked tango from its beginning. I
> > don't think they were less Argentines than the upper class were.
> >
> >
> >
> >> That theTango is not an
> >> Argentine product, but the product of fusion between afro-Caribbean and
> >> European rhythms.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Rhythm is only one of several parts of a musical form though. Even so,
> > pre-1920 tangos borrowed the Cuban habanera rhythm pattern of
> > dotted-eight, sixteenth, eight, eight. However this pattern was
> > imported from the slaves in Haiti, and they were brought to Haiti from
> > West Africa. I do not know what European rhythms are referred to here
> > when we talk about tango (and not vals, for example), but in any case
> > the evidence shows that any syncopated rhythm pattern (one example is
> > the habanera pattern above) that was imported in "civilized" Europe
> > ultimately came from West African and other black people's drum lines.
> >
> > In fact the theory is that the habanera pattern came as a 3-2 rhythm
> > pattern (alternating or mixing 3-long and 2-long rhythm blocks is
> > something common in African drum lines) which was something
> > incomprehensible, with its implied 5/8 time signature, to western
> > Europe. So the sailors and others distorted the 3-long block and
> > shortened it to fit into a 2-long block, thus "straightening" the time
> > signature into a 2/4 or 4/8 and the pattern into the habanera pattern
> > mentioned above. The other consequence was that whenever songs had
> > accents or notes on all three eights of the original 3-long block,
> > this became a triplet (to fit into 2 eights). Habaneras are filled
> > with these triplets, as were very early tangos. See even Bizet's
> > Carmen - the famous habanera (which was really Sebastien Yradier's El
> > Arreglito habanera that Bizet borrowed thinking it was a folk tune.)
> >
> > I don't think all this rhythm genealogy business makes tango less
> > Argentine or somehow a derivative from Europe. The habanera rhythm
> > pattern is not tango.
> >
> > Rhythm aside, it was Argentines who took, at first, whatever portable
> > instruments they had, later the bandoneon and piano and violins of
> > different sizes, and created the musical form, and it was Argentines,
> > mostly immigrants from Italy and Spain, and others, who created the
> > dance form in conventillos.
> >
> > With best regards,
> >
> > Konstantin
> > Victoria, Canada
> >
> >
> >
>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:20:38 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Origins
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Thanks for this.
I also noticed that Sergio ran together the categories of historical
milongas from the previous century with our modern concept of milonga
which dates from the 1930s. As you say, there are very few primary
sources that allow us to figure out the exact truth when we go back
before the 1920s.
"Brothel" may or may not be the same thing as "Dance Hall" or
"nightclub". One would assume that men met women at locations that
varied from respectable to dis-reputable, and from high-class to low-
class. One would assume that women were protected, controlled or
allowed freedom, paid or not paid depending on numerous factors. In a
culture of extreme poverty and wealth, the difference between a
prostitute, mistress, and girlfriend may also be ambiguous.
Certainly, wealthy "jailaifs" would go "slumming" in downtown
nightclubs, which to me presumes (but doesn't prove) that there was
tango in brothels at least in the occasional sense.
On Jul 18, 2007, at 11:29 AM, Konstantin Zahariev wrote:
> Hi,
>
> While many have claims have been made, and we do not really have
> copious amounts of primary documents for incontrovertible proof of one
> hypothesis over another, I think that we can still (A) identify and
> separate obvious biases that got woven into the narrative, as well as
> claims that are made to reinforce or conform to the preferred
> narrative (B) separate less systematic analyses and famous people's
> opinions from more systematic analyses and (C) distill more probable
> from less probable realizations.
> Then there are some confusions in terminology or context.
>
> The milongas before 1930 came in several flavours - most famously the
> milonga campera, a slow, 3-3-2 pattern, sung by payadores accompanied
> by guitar, but also some 2/4 livelier tunes, yet none of them had
> anything to do with the post-1930 milonga as we know it.
>
> However the post-1930 milonga and the pre-1920 tangos share the
> habanera rhythm pattern of dotted eight-sixteenth-eight-eight, which
> is why Sergio could say that some outside Argentina confuse early
> tangos (in pre-1920 arrangement) with post-1930 milongas. This cannot
> be an argument about the primacy of milonga, though - at least not
> about the milonga as we know it now.
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:51:53 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Origins
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600707181151i796900e3i4a7fd265c66d94b8@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/18/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> [...]
> Certainly, wealthy "jailaifs" would go "slumming" in downtown
> nightclubs, which to me presumes (but doesn't prove) that there was
> tango in brothels at least in the occasional sense.
Dear Tom,
Thank you for great comments. In regards to your last sentence
(above), I just wanted to make it clear that what I consider a myth is
the claim that tango _originated_ or was _born_ in brothels. That it
was subsequently danced there - more or less occasionally, is fairly
likely or perhaps even documented (although one can question the
definition of 'brothel' or the provenance of the evidence, or the
motive of the source). However, there is a very significant difference
between that and the claim that it originated there.
I just think that it is time to put some of these well-worn myths to
bed. To me the likely real story (as I indicated in my previous
posting) is so much more interesting, tender, and beautiful than the
tired cliches about prostitution, violence, and exoticism.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 21:27:35 +0200
From: Andy Ungureanu <abungureanu@googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Origins
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hi Konstantin
Am 18.07.2007 19:29 schrieb Konstantin Zahariev :
> In regards to biases and prejudices influencing the narrative, it
> seems quite self-evident now that (1) tango originated with the
> working classes,
>
What makes you believe, it was the "working" class? I rather believe
someone working 10-12 hours a day as usual at the end of the 18th
century cannot spend too much time hanging around and dancing. It was
certain the lower class, but it is more likely they were not working,
unless you define any kind of money earning as work, not much difference
today in BA, where you see the same guys night after night in all
milongas from 0 to 5 am. You see people with ordinary daylight jobs only
at the weekend and maybe once between Mo and Fr.
I don't believe it is useful to describe tango history in terms of
marxist dialectic.
Andy
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:53:58 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Origins
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600707181253k4de3557ei902cc79a801eda58@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/18/07, Andy Ungureanu <abungureanu@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi Konstantin
>
> Am 18.07.2007 19:29 schrieb Konstantin Zahariev :
> > In regards to biases and prejudices influencing the narrative, it
> > seems quite self-evident now that (1) tango originated with the
> > working classes,
> >
> What makes you believe, it was the "working" class? I rather believe
> someone working 10-12 hours a day as usual at the end of the 18th
> century cannot spend too much time hanging around and dancing.
I don't have to believe; it is what makes most sense and it is what
was done in other countries in similar circumstances. That was
ordinary people's entertainment. You have to remember the 1900s was an
era without radio, television, movies, or recorded music of any kind.
Secondly, do not assume long hours or hard work meant no fun and play
in the evening; people are amazingly resilient and adaptive even under
most difficult conditions. A friend likes to say that they composed
tangos even in Auschwitz. I don't know if this is true, but it is
perfectly plausible because this is the nature of people.
> I don't believe it is useful to describe tango history in terms of
> marxist dialectic.
>
> Andy
Wow, give me a break! It never occured to me that this term also has
marxist relevance. In any case (1) I obviously used it interchangeably
with "low class", and (2) as it turned out after I did google searches
it is in general usage where 2/3 of the time it is used outside any
socialist/marxist context. Also, do you know that the term "low class"
is used 3-4 times less often than "working class" (outside marxist
context)?
I guess I should have kept saying "low class", and then get trashed by
someone else.
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:49:40 -0400
From: "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Origins
To: anfractuoso@gmail.com, tango-l@mit.edu
In virtually all discussions of the origins of tango, I am surprised at the
lack of mention of the apache (a-pa-shay). The apache appeared as a
vernacular street dance in Paris in all likelihood in the mid- to
late-1800's, possibly even pre-dating the appearance of tango in Buenos
Aires. The story of the apache was that it also supposedly started as a
dance between pimps and prostitutes among "immigrants," though from rural
France and not another country. Furthermore, a dance with an embrace that
is unmistakably like tango appears in a Renoir painting of Paris from 1876.
And Rudolph Valentino, mentioned earlier, started as a taxi dancer of the
apache, not the tango.
Paris and Buenos Aires had close ties early. The presumption that the early
influence of tango was unidirectional from Buenos Aires to Paris may not be
appropriate. It may in fact be difficult to say which influenced which the
most with regard to the development and evolution of tango, among many
other sources.
WB Smith
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
https://link.mail2web.com/mail2web
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:14:35 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Origins
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600707181414l4f600ff9wf26579bea6fe4cf6@mail.gmail.com>
Hi,
I did mention the apache, just today. However the apache may have
influenced not the tango dance, but the myths about tango.
And yes, there was no implicit claim from me that Valentino was a
_tango_ taxi dancer, I just mentioned him as an example of a taxi
dancer.
Lastly, that tango was exported to Paris (and not the other way
around) is, more or less, a non-controversial statement backed up by
documents. As to the interaction between Paris and Buenos Aires, there
is a very interesting systematic account of the comings and goings of
Latin Americans between 1880-1920 in a PhD dissertation by Ingrid Fey.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
On 7/18/07, tangosmith@cox.net <tangosmith@cox.net> wrote:
> In virtually all discussions of the origins of tango, I am surprised at the
> lack of mention of the apache (a-pa-shay). The apache appeared as a
> vernacular street dance in Paris in all likelihood in the mid- to
> late-1800's, possibly even pre-dating the appearance of tango in Buenos
> Aires. The story of the apache was that it also supposedly started as a
> dance between pimps and prostitutes among "immigrants," though from rural
> France and not another country. Furthermore, a dance with an embrace that
> is unmistakably like tango appears in a Renoir painting of Paris from 1876.
> And Rudolph Valentino, mentioned earlier, started as a taxi dancer of the
> apache, not the tango.
> Paris and Buenos Aires had close ties early. The presumption that the early
> influence of tango was unidirectional from Buenos Aires to Paris may not be
> appropriate. It may in fact be difficult to say which influenced which the
> most with regard to the development and evolution of tango, among many
> other sources.
> WB Smith
>
>
>
>
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> https://link.mail2web.com/mail2web
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:16:56 +0100
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Origins
To: "[Tango-L]" <tango-l@mit.edu>
What about looking around at people today.
What class would you say are the predominantly dancing now?
'Mash
London,UK
"May we be cautious in our perfection lest we lose the ability to dance."
On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 12:53:58PM -0700, Konstantin Zahariev wrote:
> On 7/18/07, Andy Ungureanu <abungureanu@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Konstantin
> >
> > Am 18.07.2007 19:29 schrieb Konstantin Zahariev :
> > > In regards to biases and prejudices influencing the narrative, it
> > > seems quite self-evident now that (1) tango originated with the
> > > working classes,
> > >
> > What makes you believe, it was the "working" class? I rather believe
> > someone working 10-12 hours a day as usual at the end of the 18th
> > century cannot spend too much time hanging around and dancing.
>
>
> I don't have to believe; it is what makes most sense and it is what
> was done in other countries in similar circumstances. That was
> ordinary people's entertainment. You have to remember the 1900s was an
> era without radio, television, movies, or recorded music of any kind.
> Secondly, do not assume long hours or hard work meant no fun and play
> in the evening; people are amazingly resilient and adaptive even under
> most difficult conditions. A friend likes to say that they composed
> tangos even in Auschwitz. I don't know if this is true, but it is
> perfectly plausible because this is the nature of people.
>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 04:51:13 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Origins
To: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Cc: "\[Tango-L\]" <tango-l@mit.edu>
What kind of dancing? Tango only? Where? To what music?
In many countries people of all social classes engage in partner or solo
dance as a means of recreation/entertainment, socializing, class and
society identification, competition for a suitable mate, connecting with
music and therefore with community and culture, and self expression.
And, I'm sure, for other reasons. (I tend to avoid referring to
economic classes but sometimes economics primarily define social class
in a society).
In some countries only people of certain social classes dance, for some
or all of the same reasons.
Society in some countries includes dance as a critical self-identifier
and part of the definition of the society's culture and a means of
defining the "not us". Perhaps the discussion on this list argues for
Argentine tango as a critical self-identifier in the Argentine society,
at least in the past, if not in the present.
In the US up through the 1940's dance was an integral part of everyday
society. People of all social classes danced. (What they danced was
very different; there was broad overlap but certain dances were
identified predominantly with different social classes.) There were
barn dances, jook joints and dime-a-dance halls for the needs and
purposes of the lower social classes, and dancing schools, social balls,
and charity events with dancing for the higher.
Today in the US I would venture that there is far less dancing overall
as entertainment options have vastly proliferated with the mass media.
The social needs and purposes of people have changed and there are far
less reasons to dance, apart from recreation and self expression.
Dancing is minimally important overall, but where it exists it is more
important to the higher social classes (educated and professional) and
to ethnic groups reinforcing their subcultures. It is not important at
all to the public at large; it presents an unfamiliar curiosity (think
Dancing with the Stars and So You Think You Can Dance). I think the
ethnic group phenomenon transcends social class.
I'm also interested in hearing what dancers in other countries and
societies say about this.
'Mash wrote:
> What about looking around at people today.
> What class would you say are the predominantly dancing now?
>
> 'Mash
> London,UK
>
> "May we be cautious in our perfection lest we lose the ability to dance."
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 12:53:58PM -0700, Konstantin Zahariev wrote:
>
>>On 7/18/07, Andy Ungureanu <abungureanu@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Konstantin
>>>
>>>Am 18.07.2007 19:29 schrieb Konstantin Zahariev :
>>>
>>>>In regards to biases and prejudices influencing the narrative, it
>>>>seems quite self-evident now that (1) tango originated with the
>>>>working classes,
>>>>
>>>
>>>What makes you believe, it was the "working" class? I rather believe
>>>someone working 10-12 hours a day as usual at the end of the 18th
>>>century cannot spend too much time hanging around and dancing.
>>
>>
>>I don't have to believe; it is what makes most sense and it is what
>>was done in other countries in similar circumstances. That was
>>ordinary people's entertainment. You have to remember the 1900s was an
>>era without radio, television, movies, or recorded music of any kind.
>>Secondly, do not assume long hours or hard work meant no fun and play
>>in the evening; people are amazingly resilient and adaptive even under
>>most difficult conditions. A friend likes to say that they composed
>>tangos even in Auschwitz. I don't know if this is true, but it is
>>perfectly plausible because this is the nature of people.
>>
>
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
"legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:59:33 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Origins
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600707192159y42aebe3eif756b0169aa6023d@mail.gmail.com>
Hello,
Carol wrote a beautiful post addressing this from a more general
perspective, and I agree with the totality of her points and would
have said similar things.
I just want to offer an even broader comment, not just about dancing.
I think it is interesting and significant that the last fifty or so
years have possibly been the first period in human history that we
have shifted on a large scale from being mostly creators to being
mostly consumers of music and other performing arts(*). We are into
uncharted territory.
Up until recorded music, radio, television and other media really
changed the way we viewed entertainment, it was a totally different
way of life with practically everyone in every family either playing
an instrument or dancing or being a storyteller or a singer, and
people created entertainment instead of consuming someone else's
creation.
Just some scattered thoughts..(**)
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
(*) Yes, various disclaimers apply. The Romans were a special case of
proto-consumers with their proud inability and lack of desire to
create music (they hired others to do that). Other examples probably
exist.
(**) And dancing was indeed huge until the Great Depression or so.
I've read some estimates from papers, with astonishing figures from
the 1920s in the US, like: some 65,000 people would go out in Chicago
to dance every night of the week, or that in San Francisco there would
be more than a hundred dancing halls within a six-block radius
downtown, and that some dancing halls would regularly host up to 5,000
people at a time. I am going by memory, but can check the actual
statistics. In any case the numbers were absolutely mind-boggling.
On 7/19/07, 'Mash <mashdot@toshine.net> wrote:
> What about looking around at people today.
> What class would you say are the predominantly dancing now?
>
> 'Mash
> London,UK
>
> "May we be cautious in our perfection lest we lose the ability to dance."
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 12:53:58PM -0700, Konstantin Zahariev wrote:
> > On 7/18/07, Andy Ungureanu <abungureanu@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Konstantin
> > >
> > > Am 18.07.2007 19:29 schrieb Konstantin Zahariev :
> > > > In regards to biases and prejudices influencing the narrative, it
> > > > seems quite self-evident now that (1) tango originated with the
> > > > working classes,
> > > >
> > > What makes you believe, it was the "working" class? I rather believe
> > > someone working 10-12 hours a day as usual at the end of the 18th
> > > century cannot spend too much time hanging around and dancing.
> >
> >
> > I don't have to believe; it is what makes most sense and it is what
> > was done in other countries in similar circumstances. That was
> > ordinary people's entertainment. You have to remember the 1900s was an
> > era without radio, television, movies, or recorded music of any kind.
> > Secondly, do not assume long hours or hard work meant no fun and play
> > in the evening; people are amazingly resilient and adaptive even under
> > most difficult conditions. A friend likes to say that they composed
> > tangos even in Auschwitz. I don't know if this is true, but it is
> > perfectly plausible because this is the nature of people.
> >
>
