731 Stop taking lessons now!
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 19:33:11 -0400
From: Georgia Littleton <glit10go@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Stop taking lessons now!
--- Luda Requadt <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>For instance, why do you think there's a shortage of
>men for certain tango events?
The tango of the leader and the tango of the follower are two entirely
different dances with disparate challenges.
The point is well-known: leading is harder than following.
The time and effort needed to become an acceptable leader is far longer than
the time and effort needed to become an acceptable follower. If men and
women are roughly equivalent in the degree of work they are willing to put
into their dancing (and I believe they are), men are more likely to max out
before they have met the challenges of being merely acceptable than women
are.
When women quit dancing it tends to be for social reasons, not technical
ones. It isn't because they can't dance, it's because they aren't getting
the dances they want. For men who quit, it's never for social reasons; it's
a result of the complexity, challenge, and time demands of just getting up
to an acceptable level of leading. (In fact, social factors can provide
nothing but positive incentives for men; tango is a banquet of available
women dancers, and in tango a schlub of a guy who wouldn't be able to get
the time of day from a woman in any other setting can be a total hero on the
dance floor!)
Because leading and following make different demands of dancers, the numbers
of leaders and followers will always differ. Too bad. It would be nice if
it were otherwise, but it isn't going to be.
Depressing, isn't it? But I'm too stuborn and egotistical to give up.
Women can go crazy trying to figure out why they aren't getting more (or
any) dances. The truth is, no matter how hard you try to figure out what's
wrong with you, you will never come up with the answer...
Because there isn't anything wrong with you! It's rarely about you at all.
It's a simple matter of arithmetic.
A lot of women show up at dances alone hoping to dance, and they sit there
all night. It's easy to grow sullen and to resent the men you think are
ignoring you, but that resentment is woefully misplaced. Those men can't
help you. They're already dancing non-stop all night. Those are the men
who are trying their hardest. They're the ones who persevere and deal with
the classes, the lessons, and the needy women who pester them. The only
thing that will help is more men.
Don't resent the men who are there. The ones who deserve your ire are the
ones who AREN'T there! (The other people who deserve your ire are the women
who want some company and bring along their girlfriends to talk to. I mean,
how C*L*U*E*L*E*S*S is that!)
Before you throw in the towel on finding parters to dance with, take some
personal action. (That doesn't mean aggressively trying to seize partners
from women who are already dancing with men... hello!)
What I'm suggesting is, never, NEVER go to milongas alone anymore. Bring
somebody along (namely a MAN, not one of your girlfriends). Get your
brother to come along with you if you have to.
Oh yes, and place a moratorium on lessons and classes! All that time you
spend trying to improve your dancing isn't going to get you a single
invitation.
On the other hand, you will be dancing all night non-stop if you take the
time you spend on improving your dancing and put it instead into flushing
out men from outside the dancing community and convincing them to take up
tango.
It ought to be a pretty attractive sale to a man, with the rows of women
lined up as pretty as spiced meats at a deli counter. Is there any man who
has stuck with tango for any length of time who HASN'T arrived at the
conclusion that this is the tastiest racket since special interest money?
If we have failed in any way, the failure is simply that we haven't roped
in, shanghaied, hoodwinked, and hornswoggled any and every man within (and
without!) arms reach into taking up dancing.
That's what Georgia says.
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 20:58:23 -0500
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Stop taking lessons now!
Dear Georgia,
I had such a belly laugh reading your article, because you have concisely
pointed out the problem i.e., the disparity of technical requirements
between the lead and follow.
If for a moment we assume the follower is female, don't forget that they
tend to be brought up with dance and music since childhood, and that they
tend to solve problems by working with their counterparts. These behavioral
patterns further result in the female followers picking up tango (dance and
music) slightly faster in general.
But I hesitate in agreeing with your pessimistic suggestion of stop learning
for the ladies.
Who dictates that the ladies have to follow, just like in history, who
dictated only men could vote, men could work? Who dictated only women could
cook, women could sew?
If we are proud to be liberated in our modern societies in this new
millenium, so can women's role in dancing. They are also free to CHOOSE
learning the lead's dance role if they do not like waiting around.
Some may argue that dancing is for the opposite genders. But there are
plenty of dance forms by which gender makes no difference. Just to quote
the Latin culture itself, specifically, plenty of ladies dance salsa
together.
The dance communities need to accept that their female members are human
being too. They need to be aware of this dilemma women are involuntarily
facing, and that the community should support any proactive solutions.
Solutions can range from Georgia's suggestions of ladies stop learning (the
follower's parts), or taking male friends to dance, or actively grooming
male new blood. Alternatively, how about acknowledging that ladies learning
the lead dance role as an equally viable solution?
If the ladies are open to this idea as well, those who choose to learn the
lead part will eventually be proficient, soon the ladies population will
realize that everybody have more chance to dance. I had countless wonderful
experiences dancing with excellent female leads. It is only a win win
situation.
It is nothing wrong for some ladies who insist on dancing with male. They
also have their right to sit and wait. Afterall, we are free to pick our
preferences.
>with the rows of women lined up as pretty as spiced meats at a deli
>counter. Is there any man who has stuck with tango for any length of time
>who HASN'T arrived at the conclusion that this is the tastiest >racket.
Exactly, is that THE reason why some men object to female learning to dance
the lead part, because their deli counter will feature less spiced meats to
pick from?
It is about time to abandon the thought that same-gender-dancing infers
homosexuality.
* * *
If we realize the problem, let's work together to solve it, and stop whining
about it while doing nothing.
Bibi
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 17:25:58 -0700
From: Tom English <tom@TANGONOW.COM>
Subject: Re: Stop taking lessons now!
Good start. Great idea. But, take it one step further.
There are 3 groups that you could address with this
problem:
women
men
and teachers
I teach. I wouldn't mind it if someone out there would
post a few ways for us teachers to market for more men to
come to the classes (and I don't mean for more men that
already dance tango to come. The solution is to bring in
new blood). No complaints. The *complaint* in the
original posting was elequantly stated. How about someone
else adding to the pool of solutions.
On Sun, 8 Sep 2002 19:33:11 -0400
Georgia Littleton <glit10go@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> --- Luda Requadt <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> >For instance, why do you think there's a shortage of
> >men for certain tango events?
>
> The tango of the leader and the tango of the follower are
> two entirely
> different dances with disparate challenges.
>
> The point is well-known: leading is harder than
> following.
>
> The time and effort needed to become an acceptable leader
> is far longer than
> the time and effort needed to become an acceptable
> follower. If men and
> women are roughly equivalent in the degree of work they
> are willing to put
> into their dancing (and I believe they are), men are more
> likely to max out
> before they have met the challenges of being merely
> acceptable than women
> are.
>
> When women quit dancing it tends to be for social
> reasons, not technical
> ones. It isn't because they can't dance, it's because
> they aren't getting
> the dances they want. For men who quit, it's never for
> social reasons; it's
> a result of the complexity, challenge, and time demands
> of just getting up
> to an acceptable level of leading. (In fact, social
> factors can provide
> nothing but positive incentives for men; tango is a
> banquet of available
> women dancers, and in tango a schlub of a guy who
> wouldn't be able to get
> the time of day from a woman in any other setting can be
> a total hero on the
> dance floor!)
>
> Because leading and following make different demands of
> dancers, the numbers
> of leaders and followers will always differ. Too bad.
> It would be nice if
> it were otherwise, but it isn't going to be.
>
> Depressing, isn't it? But I'm too stuborn and
> egotistical to give up.
>
> Women can go crazy trying to figure out why they aren't
> getting more (or
> any) dances. The truth is, no matter how hard you try to
> figure out what's
> wrong with you, you will never come up with the answer...
>
> Because there isn't anything wrong with you! It's rarely
> about you at all.
> It's a simple matter of arithmetic.
>
> A lot of women show up at dances alone hoping to dance,
> and they sit there
> all night. It's easy to grow sullen and to resent the
> men you think are
> ignoring you, but that resentment is woefully misplaced.
> Those men can't
> help you. They're already dancing non-stop all night.
> Those are the men
> who are trying their hardest. They're the ones who
> persevere and deal with
> the classes, the lessons, and the needy women who pester
> them. The only
> thing that will help is more men.
>
> Don't resent the men who are there. The ones who deserve
> your ire are the
> ones who AREN'T there! (The other people who deserve
> your ire are the women
> who want some company and bring along their girlfriends
> to talk to. I mean,
> how C*L*U*E*L*E*S*S is that!)
>
> Before you throw in the towel on finding parters to dance
> with, take some
> personal action. (That doesn't mean aggressively trying
> to seize partners
> from women who are already dancing with men... hello!)
>
> What I'm suggesting is, never, NEVER go to milongas alone
> anymore. Bring
> somebody along (namely a MAN, not one of your
> girlfriends). Get your
> brother to come along with you if you have to.
>
> Oh yes, and place a moratorium on lessons and classes!
> All that time you
> spend trying to improve your dancing isn't going to get
> you a single
> invitation.
>
> On the other hand, you will be dancing all night non-stop
> if you take the
> time you spend on improving your dancing and put it
> instead into flushing
> out men from outside the dancing community and convincing
> them to take up
> tango.
>
> It ought to be a pretty attractive sale to a man, with
> the rows of women
> lined up as pretty as spiced meats at a deli counter. Is
> there any man who
> has stuck with tango for any length of time who HASN'T
> arrived at the
> conclusion that this is the tastiest racket since special
> interest money?
>
> If we have failed in any way, the failure is simply that
> we haven't roped
> in, shanghaied, hoodwinked, and hornswoggled any and
> every man within (and
> without!) arms reach into taking up dancing.
>
> That's what Georgia says.
>
>
>
> photos:
>
>
> should be sent to
> the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
--
Tom English, Founder
TangoNow!
Boston's very own Argentine Tango
www.tangonow.com
tom@tangonow.com
617-783-5478
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 03:47:51 +0000
From: Brian Taylor <briantaylor990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Stop taking lessons now!
I agree with the ladies. The role of the leader is more difficult to learn.
He has to listen to the music, decide what to do, lead the lady, navigate
the floor properly. This last task requires that he be aware of every body
else around him and to have perfect maneuverability in order not to
interfere with the other couples and avoid collision.
The follower, on the other hand only has to close her eyes and be responsive
to the lead.(and enjoy herself :))
I do not agree that there are less men than women for the above reason
though.
The man is in charge, once he learns the basic skills is up to him how
simple or complex he wants his dance to be. Tango attracts men that look for
challenge and perfection. Those men are not going to give up because they
find the dance to be difficult. I concede, some do but so do some women.
In ballroom we find the same problem, more women than men, yet here the
roles are more symmetrical, the degree of complexity of the dance for both
partners is very similar.
Women like to dance more than men do, women like to go out more than men do,
women are more prone to take trips with other ladies, women live longer
than men. I find that a combination of these factors could be responsible
for gender imbalance at the milongas and elsewhere.
As to women dancing together...or men dancing together is a question of
taste I imagine. Perhaps a taste that has to be developed? what do you
think?
I have never danced with a man before, have you? how does it feel?
and as a woman dancing with another woman, how is this different than
dancing with a man? would you share your experience?
As to lessons for the ladies, I have met great dancers in Buenos Aires that
had never taken formal lessons. They learn at the practicas dancing with
friends and then at the milongas dancing with different milongueros.
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 23:17:24 -0700
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Stop taking lessons now!
On Sun, 8 Sep 2002 20:58:23 -0500 Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
writes:
> Dear Georgia,
>
>
> Who dictates that the ladies have to follow, just like in history,
> who
> dictated only men could vote, men could work? Who dictated only
> women could
> cook, women could sew?
>
**
I don't mind the ladies that lead, if they are happier leading I just
don't invite them to dance, one of the problems is once they start
leading they have problems following, and it is harder to dance with
them.
The other problem is that they invite to dance the good dancers that we
like for dancing.
They are a few that can follow and lead well and most of them are
teachers.
A good idea would be to organize a milonga just for ladies.
Elemer in Redmond
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 02:55:21 -0500
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Stop taking lessons now!
List members,
Brian wrote:
>As to women dancing together...or men dancing together is a question of
>taste I imagine. Perhaps a taste that has to be developed? what do you
>think?
It is not entirely matter of taste, it is one of the ways to save the sanity
of the women who might otherwise end up being frustrated sitting there.
>...As a woman dancing with another woman, how is this different than
>dancing with a man? ... would you share your experience?
I cannot speak for men dancing with men, but my experience dancing with
female leads confirms that they tend to be more sensitive in their
movements, perhaps because they know exactly what it takes to follow.
From the PURE dance viewpoint, all and all, there is no difference in the
gender, it is a matter of skills, like we are equal in front of the court of
law.
If there are two male leads of different skill levels, I would prefer
dancing with man with better skill. Then if there are two human being of
different skill levels, I would prefer dancing with the better one, be it
male or female.
The other factor that affects one's ability in choosing unbiasly is the
social stigma, that's all.
To answer another posting in which one member complained that female leaders
tend to invite the better female followers. This reminds us of the spread
of spiced meats in the witty article by Ms. Georgia...
May be the female followers accept the invitations because they recognzie
that these ladies are better leads?
This resulted competition is no more different than having new male members
or visiting male dancers who are so good, that they are able to attract the
better female followers. If that is the case, will the existing members
write to Tango-L to complain?
May be the competition will encourage everyone to brush up. Wouldn't that be
exactly what we want from reading all these tango-L postings: to have the
entire dance community excel in their dancing skills?
It is only a win-win situation for all, across the board.
Bibi
>From: Brian Taylor <briantaylor990@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Reply-To: Brian Taylor <briantaylor990@HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Stop taking lessons now!
>Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 03:47:51 +0000
>
>I agree with the ladies. The role of the leader is more difficult to learn.
>He has to listen to the music, decide what to do, lead the lady, navigate
>the floor properly. This last task requires that he be aware of every body
>else around him and to have perfect maneuverability in order not to
>interfere with the other couples and avoid collision.
>
>The follower, on the other hand only has to close her eyes and be
>responsive
>to the lead.(and enjoy herself :))
>
>I do not agree that there are less men than women for the above reason
>though.
>The man is in charge, once he learns the basic skills is up to him how
>simple or complex he wants his dance to be. Tango attracts men that look
>for
>challenge and perfection. Those men are not going to give up because they
>find the dance to be difficult. I concede, some do but so do some women.
>
>In ballroom we find the same problem, more women than men, yet here the
>roles are more symmetrical, the degree of complexity of the dance for both
>partners is very similar.
>
>Women like to dance more than men do, women like to go out more than men
>do,
>women are more prone to take trips with other ladies, women live longer
>than men. I find that a combination of these factors could be responsible
>for gender imbalance at the milongas and elsewhere.
>
>As to women dancing together...or men dancing together is a question of
>taste I imagine. Perhaps a taste that has to be developed? what do you
>think?
>I have never danced with a man before, have you? how does it feel?
>and as a woman dancing with another woman, how is this different than
>dancing with a man? would you share your experience?
>
>As to lessons for the ladies, I have met great dancers in Buenos Aires that
>had never taken formal lessons. They learn at the practicas dancing with
>friends and then at the milongas dancing with different milongueros.
>
>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 01:25:29 -0700
From: Tom English <tom@TANGONOW.COM>
Subject: Stop taking lessons now! Solutions don't match the stated problem
I do believe that you have taken Georgia's forum away from
her. Here is what I read:
Georgia desires for more men to be at the dances.
You have all turned it into a debate about women dancing
with women. Shouldn't that be on a different thread? I
mean, I, too, have views on women with women, men with men,
uncles with aunts, the birds and the bees. But, still, it
would be good for the community if ANYONE out there has any
constructive ideas on how to GROW the community.
Poor Georgia.
I am a software engineer and because I care about my
company I tend to speak up when a good answer is given ...
but, doesn't solve the stated problem. Many times, the
boss is fooled by what he or she thinks is the final answer
to the stated problem. Its nice to speak up and remind
everyone that the solution, although it might be a good
one, doesn't solve the problem. I couldn't imagine if
Georgia was my boss, stated her problem that there aren't
enough men and I told her to go and dance with women!
Hey! There ARE instructors who read this. So, why doesn't
someone at least try and solve the problem? Your
instructors might read your answer and act on it!
I'm a man and I dance well. So, I should be happy, right?
But, I've made alot of friends and I see them sitting
there for most of the evening! That makes me want to solve
the problem!!!!!!! Again, let me close my eyes and look at
some of those women and picture their reaction if I tell
them to go and dance with other women. Hmmm, seems like
they wouldn't be looking for my input next time around.
Okay, let me see if I can prime the pump. It isn't a well
defined answer, but it heads in the right direction:
It seems that advertising should be directed
toward men. Why not advertise at or near the
sports parks? Here's the title for the ad:
Good men needed
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002 02:55:21 -0500
Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> List members,
>
> Brian wrote:
> >As to women dancing together...or men dancing together
> is a question of
> >taste I imagine. Perhaps a taste that has to be
> developed? what do you
> >think?
>
> It is not entirely matter of taste, it is one of the ways
> to save the sanity
> of the women who might otherwise end up being frustrated
> sitting there.
>
> >...As a woman dancing with another woman, how is this
> different than
> >dancing with a man? ... would you share your experience?
>
> I cannot speak for men dancing with men, but my
> experience dancing with
> female leads confirms that they tend to be more sensitive
> in their
> movements, perhaps because they know exactly what it
> takes to follow.
>
> From the PURE dance viewpoint, all and all, there is no
> difference in the
> gender, it is a matter of skills, like we are equal in
> front of the court of
> law.
>
> If there are two male leads of different skill levels, I
> would prefer
> dancing with man with better skill. Then if there are
> two human being of
> different skill levels, I would prefer dancing with the
> better one, be it
> male or female.
>
> The other factor that affects one's ability in choosing
> unbiasly is the
> social stigma, that's all.
>
> To answer another posting in which one member complained
> that female leaders
> tend to invite the better female followers. This reminds
> us of the spread
> of spiced meats in the witty article by Ms. Georgia...
>
> May be the female followers accept the invitations
> because they recognzie
> that these ladies are better leads?
>
> This resulted competition is no more different than
> having new male members
> or visiting male dancers who are so good, that they are
> able to attract the
> better female followers. If that is the case, will the
> existing members
> write to Tango-L to complain?
>
> May be the competition will encourage everyone to brush
> up. Wouldn't that be
> exactly what we want from reading all these tango-L
> postings: to have the
> entire dance community excel in their dancing skills?
>
> It is only a win-win situation for all, across the board.
>
> Bibi
>
>
>
>
> >From: Brian Taylor <briantaylor990@HOTMAIL.COM>
> >Reply-To: Brian Taylor <briantaylor990@HOTMAIL.COM>
> >To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> >Subject: [TANGO-L] Stop taking lessons now!
> >Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 03:47:51 +0000
> >
> >I agree with the ladies. The role of the leader is more
> difficult to learn.
> >He has to listen to the music, decide what to do, lead
> the lady, navigate
> >the floor properly. This last task requires that he be
> aware of every body
> >else around him and to have perfect maneuverability in
> order not to
> >interfere with the other couples and avoid collision.
> >
> >The follower, on the other hand only has to close her
> eyes and be
> >responsive
> >to the lead.(and enjoy herself :))
> >
> >I do not agree that there are less men than women for
> the above reason
> >though.
> >The man is in charge, once he learns the basic skills is
> up to him how
> >simple or complex he wants his dance to be. Tango
> attracts men that look
> >for
> >challenge and perfection. Those men are not going to
> give up because they
> >find the dance to be difficult. I concede, some do but
> so do some women.
> >
> >In ballroom we find the same problem, more women than
> men, yet here the
> >roles are more symmetrical, the degree of complexity of
> the dance for both
> >partners is very similar.
> >
> >Women like to dance more than men do, women like to go
> out more than men
> >do,
> >women are more prone to take trips with other ladies,
> women live longer
> >than men. I find that a combination of these factors
> could be responsible
> >for gender imbalance at the milongas and elsewhere.
> >
> >As to women dancing together...or men dancing together
> is a question of
> >taste I imagine. Perhaps a taste that has to be
> developed? what do you
> >think?
> >I have never danced with a man before, have you? how
> does it feel?
> >and as a woman dancing with another woman, how is this
> different than
> >dancing with a man? would you share your experience?
> >
> >As to lessons for the ladies, I have met great dancers
> in Buenos Aires that
> >had never taken formal lessons. They learn at the
> practicas dancing with
> >friends and then at the milongas dancing with different
> milongueros.
> >
> >
>
> >Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
>
>
>
>
>
> photos:
--
Tom English, Founder
TangoNow!
Boston's very own Argentine Tango
www.tangonow.com
tom@tangonow.com
617-783-5478
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:23:07 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Stop taking lessons now! Solutions don't match the stated problem
Tom English pointed out:
> Georgia desires for more men to be at the dances.
>
> You have all turned it into a debate about women dancing
> with women. Shouldn't that be on a different thread? > But, I've made
alot of friends and I see them sitting
> there for most of the evening! That makes me want to solve
> the problem!!!!!!! Again, let me close my eyes and look at
> some of those women and picture their reaction if I tell
> them to go and dance with other women.
I have been following this discussion, and Tom is right- where are the ideas
how to rope in, shanghai etc. etc. more men ??
Brian Taylor wrote:
"Tango attracts men that look for
challenge and perfection. Those men are not going to give up because they
find the dance to be difficult."
This may be true for the men who eventually become good dancers, but in my
experience, those types are a rare and precious breed. In my experience the
majority is there for the "spread of spiced meats", and many of them tend to
give up once they find out that more is required of them than to simply
strut around with a choosey look on their face, no, that it can actually be
rather embarrassing and painful when they find out that they don't really
know how to handle all that meat in an artful way, and are actually making
themselves and her look bad.
Yes, it takes a certain type to survive the hardness of the first months and
stick with it.
There have been discussions about the fact, that some teachers attract men,
while others don't. Be it, because they teach how to move and navigate on
the dance floor, instead of only showing one complicated step after another,
be it simply, because they are cheap (that seems to be one of the incentives
in Tokyo, where 18$ a class is consifered "cheap")
I would like to know what people's experiences are:
what kind of classes and milonga attract more men than others ?
What made the men start tango ? How were you talked into it, or, what was
your incentive ? And what made you stay ?
Or how did the women get a man to come along ?
It is not as simple as grabbing the next guy and say:"Let's go to my tango
class !" The answer is usually:"Tango ? Interesting. But me, dance ? Oh, no
!!" The only successful attempts at roping in men I have made, was to invite
someone I met at a milonga, who wanted to change his teacher, or was looking
for an extra day of dancing. Or someone who was already dancing salsa or
something.
To me, dancing with other women is no attractive solution. I am there for
the dance, and part of the dance is to move in blissful unison with a man.
Dancing with a woman does not "do it" for me. Yes, I have danced with a few
women, and there was actually one, with who I found that quite enjoyable
rather than a necessary evil, and once she saved me from the blues at some
boring milonga, but I observed that even though she was a much better dancer
than many other women and most of the men even, the men would hardly dance
with her anymore, because she was leading women a lot. Someone even asked me
the whispered question:"Is she a Lez ? And is her friend, too, who came with
her ?" So, she learned to lead, to get more dances, and ended up having to
lead almost all of the time. Tokyo may be oldfashioned in that way, I don't
know, if that works better elsewhere.
But, to get to what Elemer wrote:
"The other problem is that they invite to dance the good dancers that we
like for dancing."...
For the good dancers, if they prefer to dance with a woman rather than with
you, that is a statement you should think about ! Not that we want to loose
yet another man, but...
Waiting for constructive ideas.
Astrid
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:38:37 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Men dancing with men (was Re: [TANGO-L] Stop taking lessons now!)
Brian Taylor <briantaylor990@HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
[...]
> I have never danced with a man before, have you? how does it feel?
It feels quite similar (when leading). It tends to feel more like
play than seduction, and can sometimes be more physically playful
(because depending on your partner, you probably aren't worrying too
much if they bump in to chairs or if you kick them slightly).
Of course, what you really want to do is follow, to feel what it's
like to follow, and also to feel how another experienced leader
interprets the dance.
And following feels quite different to leading.
[...]
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:05:48 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Stop taking lessons now! Solutions don't match the stated problem
>
>Hey! There ARE instructors who read this. So, why doesn't
>someone at least try and solve the problem? Your
>instructors might read your answer and act on it!
>...
> It seems that advertising should be directed
> toward men. Why not advertise at or near the
> sports parks? Here's the title for the ad:
>
> Good men needed
The focus in my classes is training up guys. Not that the ladies
neglected, but they are also rewarded because they have decent dance
partners. This speeds up their learning...and gives them partners at
the milongas who already know them.
I'm not sure that advertising or outreach is so important. Yes, we
need newcomers, but more important are:
- a teaching style and methodology that makes tango simpler,
- retention of students, and
- graduating them to the community
Difficulty:
Tango is NOT as hard as people make it out to be.
Dancing like Miguel Zotto is hard, but it is not too difficult to
hold a beautiful woman in your arms, listen to glorious tango music,
and step around the room on the beat without bumping into anyone.
A guy can get to decent intermediate in just few months with a good
instructor...the key things are NOT deep study of technique, nor
learning a complicated figure (* like the 8CB), rather, learning to
lead well, hold the woman nicely, and develop rhythm, musicality, and
confidence.
Teachers are very different in their ability to teach this. I think
most teachers teach a style that is too complex and use a methodology
that makes tango difficult. They teach the external "look" of tango
which we all know can be very complex, without teaching the simpler,
"core" fundamentals, that really aren't that hard.
In my opinion that is backward, and tango needn't be like that.
Retention.
Most tango teachers lose 90% of their students after the first or
second month, while others, manage to retain 20-30% It is like the
sales formula: 80% of sales go to 20% of the salesmen.
All dance teachers would admit they lose a high percentage of their
students from the first beginner class to the second. This is true of
salsa, swing, ballroom, etc. Inevitably people have busy schedules,
they meet someone who would rather be gardening or skiing or
whatever...
- Probably teacher personality and class fun/entertainment is the
second biggest factor .
- Third, and easiest to change, is methodology & style.
If retaining guys is really the issue, then spend some time observing
many different styles of teaching. Determine which methodologies
actually succeed at that goal. Some of the best dancers of tango,
perhaps even the best teachers in a technical sense, are not very
good community builders and do not organize their teaching
methodology for training up the men.
The math is obvious: 20% retention doubles the number of new dancers
compared with 10% retention. It is relatively easier to retain women
if you have already succeeded with retaining the men.
Graduating guys into the community
Ultimately, it is the social energy of the community that keeps the
guys (and the women). Adults just want to have fun. If your parties
aren't fun, the visitors aren't meeting new people, the emotional
atmosphere is harsh or critical, then they're going to go do salsa or
drink martinis.
For the men in particular, I think that the feeling of competence is
the key factor. They have to feel like they will succeed, i.e. get
accepted for a dance, feel appreciated, feel like they can navigate,
or simply feel like they know what they are doing.
If fancy figures are the important measure you have set a very, very
high bar for a guy to feel competent.
If you define good tango as following the music, learning good
lead-follow skills, navigating the room well, embracing the lady with
care, walking her back to her seat, then you have created a much
simpler definition of success. They have a lifetime to add more steps
and more technique to this.
This is a definition of tango as a SOCIAL dance, not a PERFORMANCE dance.
Even if your pleasure is in performing or doing fancy figures, giving
students a good social foundation is better than starting them off
with patterns for stage.
(* The 8CB with dreaded back-step was expressly designed for
organizing movements on stage, not for learning how to social dance.)
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 14:08:40 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Stop taking lessons now! Solutions don't match the stated problem
I think that Tom Stermitz comments indentify the basic elements of
retaining men in tango. The classes that build a community emphasize a
social style of tango rather than memorized fantasia. A welcoming,
non-threatening reception also helps build the community. So does
instruction that conveys basic skills in dancing tango.
I know a very pleasant teaching couple who believe that putting males on
the dance floor is the key to building a community, but teach memorized
figures with no a lead and follow. Guess what? They aren't putting many
men on the dance floor.
I also know an instructor who is competitive with his male students. Guess
what? He loses most of his male students, and they leave angry with him
and the tango scene.
To foster basic dancing skills, I consider it important for the man to
understand the follower's part of the dance--and to have an understanding
how his own body movements lead his partner's movements. That is, to
develop an understanding of a generalized lead.
Too often, I see classes ignore teaching the man the woman's part of the
dance. The classes divide the teaching the into respective step patterns
for men and women that are then combined as a choreography without any real
lead or follow. The better male dancers are then left to figure out the
lead and variations for themselves. The lesser dancers are locked into
useless patterns.
Daisy Gardiner also observed:
>North Americans tend not to be into delayed gratification,
>so it's important for dancers to feel early-on like the dance
>can be mastered and that learning it will be fun.
Although I am favor of instruction that makes it possible for people to
learn to dance tango, I am not sure that much can be done to offset the
desire that many people have for instant gratification. Part of the beauty
of Argentine tango is the possibility of continued learning long after
formal instruction is ended.
By the way, one thing I might mention to those women who go to milongas,
but no longer attend the classes is that many men tend to dance with the
women they know. Where are they likely to have met the women? In class.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:55:44 -0700
From: Luda Requadt <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Stop taking lessons now!
Gee, Georgia, you paint a pretty dismal picture of the
tango community! Makes you wonder why women bother at
all. The independent Argentine ladies probably
wouldn't have any part of it. Perhaps that's why the
good portenos danced with each other. :) I wonder what
would happen if all the women went on strike and the
guys had to resort to dancing with each other, like in
the good old days? ;-) And you haven't even mentioned
some of the lyrics to the more "colorful" tangos reos,
which trash women for real or imaginary misdeeds. That
alone might make some ladies quit on the spot.
> If we have failed in any way, the failure is simply
> that we haven't roped
> in, shanghaied, hoodwinked, and hornswoggled any and
> every man within (and
> without!) arms reach into taking up dancing.
Who's the "we" in this case? Just women, or the
teachers and promoters? I don't know that I'd want to
dance with a guy who's just been "hornswoggled", by
me, or anyone else. But I agree with you that for a
woman to show up at a milonga, or any other event
which involves dancing, without a partner, or have
friends there with whom you like to dance, is
foolhardy, and conducive to the sophomoric shenanigans
that go on at high school dances.
And is acquiring leading skills really that much more
difficult? Women don't seem to have any problems with
it. On the contrary, they seem to have much more
trouble following. Of course, if a man can't lead
properly, what's a woman to do?
Luda
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:55:05 -0700
From: Ilona Koren-Deutsch <ilonakd@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Stop taking lessons now!
--- Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM> wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Sep 2002 20:58:23 -0500 Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
> writes:
> > Who dictates that the ladies have to follow, just like in
> > history, who dictated only men could vote, men could work?
> > Who dictated only women could cook, women could sew?
For that matter, who decided that women have to be "ladies"?
> The other problem is that they invite to dance the good dancers
> that we like for dancing.
So what you're really saying is that your problem with women leaders
is that you can't compete with them. Perhaps the solution would be
for you to become a better dancer rather than try to stop them from
leading?
Oh, and who is the "we" to whom you refer?
Me, I'd rather dance with a good leader (I define good leader as
"easy for me to follow" and "polite") regardless of gender.
-Ilona
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:46:18 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Stop taking lessons now! Solutions don't match the stated
problem
> I think that Tom Stermitz comments indentify the
> basic elements of
> retaining men in tango. The classes that build a
> community emphasize a
> social style of tango rather than memorized
> fantasia. A welcoming,
> non-threatening reception also helps build the
> community. So does
> instruction that conveys basic skills in dancing
> tango.
I agree with Tom and Stephen. None of the beginning
classes in Portland teach figures that I can think of.
All of the instructors here emphasize the importance
of:
1. connecting with your partner
2. feeling the music
3. being aware of the people around you
As for retaining men, I think to a large degree that
is the responsibility of the community of women.
Beginners feel a lot of pressure. Followers can help
to enable beginning men with encouragement,
friendliness, praise and openess. If men have a good
time they are more likely to come back again.
As for attracting new men, I think it's just a matter
of exposing more tango to the public. There is one
guy I know who showed up to an event last tango fest
that was advertised in the paper just to come watch
the visiting dancers and a friend of mine talked him
into dancing and then introduced him to me and we
danced, both of us just made him feel good, didn't
worry that he didn't know anything. He came to
lessons the following week and has been coming ever
since.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:44:38 -0400
From: Georgia Littleton <glit10go@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Stop taking lessons now!
I received some very interesting (and naturally provocative!) responses to
my earlier post.
I would like to post on the list my response to one of them. Since I
received the email privately, I will naturally not include the authorss name
>Yeah, and a total ego-maniac, spoiled little boy too. We women do not have
>to
>allow this kind of man to become a total hero on the dance floor.
I wasn't talking about this man at all when I mentioned "schlubs" becoming
heros on the dance floor. I'm referring to the nerd, the socially inept
man, the otherwise inattractive person who finds a new dimension in which he
can excel. I'm talking about the "late bloomer", the "sleeper", who
suddenly shines when the music starts.
Georgia doesn't even see the men you're referring to. They are invisible in
the world.
>Its really
>our fault that this happens time after time all because women don't value
>themselves more than a man like the above, and instead allow themselves to
>become addicted/bonded to the swoon, energy-boys, boys that are always
>"on-the-take," esp that schlub of a guy...
Again, that wasn't the schlub I was referring to. My usage was more
affectionate towards men of worth, whose value might be a buried treasure
uncovered only by the spade of a measure of music.
Those men you are talking about are likewise to be found in both the dancing
and non-dancing worlds. Not much needs to be said of them. They certainly
don't need to become my dancing partner. Happily, they are not in the
majority of men. Yet, many women who feel they won't, or can't, find better
do indeed settle for crumbs.
I'm perfectly content to dance with bad dancers who are good men.
I never dance with bad men.
>
> <<...and the needy women who pester them.>>
>Even with the terrible gender imbalance, a woman never has to be needy, or
>ask a man to dance, or throw herself at men... ever. Do you agree?
TOTALLY!
I am not talking about the practice of women inviting men to dance. Any
woman is free to adopt that practice for herself (as well as assume the risk
of rejection that men risk when they invite).
What Georgia hates:
1. Women who try to leech dances by interrupting a man who is already
dancing with a woman. (Hello, am I invisible here?)
2. Women who seemingly befriend a woman solely to cozy up to her partner.
><<It ought to be a pretty attractive sale to a man, with the rows of women
>lined up as pretty as spiced meats at a deli counter.
>So, here you are saying it, maybe without knowing it...spoiled, little-boy
>men taking what they need from "yes women", too desperate to know how often
>they give themselves away to men who are not worthy, no matter how well
>they
>dance.
Georgia ALWAYS knows exactly what she is saying!
No, I wasn't saying that at all. Ugh! Yes, unpleasant people exist, but
how much of your life do you want to devote to contemplating the
disreputable?
Here's a truth that may surprise a lot of women. Men like us! They're
absolutely crazy about us. If some of them spend a lot of time trying to
teach us on the dance floor, it usually isn't because they disapprove of us.
More often, it's because they want to impress us, and they think their
dancing isn't up to it so they try to impress us with the contents of their
minds. It's a little misguided, and I don't approve of it or like it, but
I've been around the block and I recognize when a man likes me.
Here's what I meant by my comment about the deli counter. It was not a
diatribe against men. It was simply my tongue-in-cheek way of saying that
we're here! Men who like women will find a lot of us waiting for them at
milongas, and we'll be delighted to welcome them.
That's what Georgia says.
