3294 Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:45:12 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
Ah, the old "AUTHENTICITY" canard.
if it walks like a duck... it must be real tango.
Ecsedy Aron makes some very interesting points.
Yes, tango has to be seen as the urban folkdance of Buenos Aires in the
1930s, 40s & 50s, when it was hugely popular.
I disagree with him that tango completely stopped being a folkdance in
1955, because the "authentic thing" did continue in certain clubs of
Buenos Aires into the 1980s. Even into the 90s, many of these clubs
were attended by a large percentage of the same people from the 1940s &
50s, older, less vigorous perhaps, but surely continuing the authentic
tradition within Aron's definitions.
But, I agree that 1955 can date the start of the decline.
One important reason was that the traditional learning method stopped
being used to create the next generation of new dancers, The earlier
tango generations of dancers learned in highly different circumstances
from today:
(1) Men learned in neighborhood practices dancing one-on-one with each
other, starting as a follower, before being accepted as a leader. Tango
was always taught man to man since the 1900s to 1950s.
(2) Women learned in a completely different methodology from today.
They were normal people, not trained dancers from ballet or modern. The
whole idea of technique and decorations of tango is completely
different from today. (Women's technique classes for boleos???)
(3) This was an intense right of passage. The competition was intense
between dancers, between neighborhoods, for partners, for marriage...
Tango training in those days inevitably resulted in a very different
dance from today. Even with the best instruction, I can't see how this
intense learning process can be approximated today.
This doesn't even consider the contributions (good or bad, as you wish)
of new tango ideas from stage dancers or the nuevo school. Here are
some other factors supporting Aron's point that contamination and
growth have caused tango to stray from this authentic, folk-dance
character:
(1) Argentine folk dancers, stage performers, and trained ballet
dancers have been the primary teachers inside & outside of Buenos
Aires, as well as inside from 1970s to the present. (Yes, some of them
were also those same great social dancers from the 40s, but they became
instructors of steps in workshops or classes.)
(2) Young argentines surged into tango in the mid-90s, often bypassing
the hard-line older clubs where they could dance with other younger
people and didn't have to listen to the old guys criticizing them.
(3) Foreign dancers (many truly seeking authenticity) in greater and
greater numbers started attending BsAs milongas in the mid 90s, to the
point where some dance floors became dominated by them
(4) Beginner Argentines of any age came to tango, but without going
through the long, difficult path that forged tango in the 1930s, 40s &
50s.
Does this mean that tango around the world today is completely an
artificial, inauthentic construct?
Is tango in Buenos Aires today, relatively authentic or not authentic
at all?
Is the Argentine cultural context sufficient to create authenticity?
Does the European or US or Japanese cultural context by definition
cause inauthenticity?
On Mar 14, 2005, at 5:09 PM, Ecsedy Áron wrote:
> Hello Ed,
>
> No. You cannot sever it from the heritage, I never said that.
> Obviously you
> also tend to mix up something what _present day_ Argentina is trying
> to mix
> up: the past and the present. Tango as an 'urban folkdance' ceased to
> exist
> in 1955. What is left is no less archeological and not more original
> than
> ballroom dancing. Although some of the ballroom dances have their
> folk-origins they were artifically devised dances of course. However,
> these
> artificial dances also did have a very strong cultural adhesion.
> (mainly
> British) With time this adhesion got weaker. Naturally, I didn't mean
> that
> tango is just one dance LIKE one ballroom dance (eg. Waltz).
>
> ....
>
> Üdv
> Áron
>
> Ecsedy Áron
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 02:29:53 -0600
From: Hector Maselli <maselli@GATE.NET>
Subject: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
stermitz@TANGO.ORG wrote,
> Ah, the old "AUTHENTICITY" canard.
Ah, the short conniving "STERMITZ" canard.
> Yes, tango has to be seen as the urban folkdance of Buenos Aires in
the 1930s, 40s & 50s, when it was hugely popular.
I'm so disgusted by your disingenuous put down of our living culture
and the way you exploit the ignorance of people who lack self-respect
and self-esteem, that I am not going to bother flaming your sorry
petulant and arrogant midget ass.
Instead, I'm going to paraphrase some of our living authorities in the
subject of tango.
Tango is a popular music which has not being turned into folklore.
Tango is not folklore, in any of its arts. Its creators are fellows and
comrades of artists who are far from being creators of folklore.
- Horacio Ferrer
> I disagree with him that tango completely stopped being a folkdance
in 1955
The significance of the year 1955, for those folks who are afraid to
use their brains and feel intimidated by the barrage of bullshit flung
from a mile high soap box, is that the regime of General Juan Peron was
toppled by a military insurrection. Politics aside, the activities of
tango were only affected because of a state of siege that discouraged
public gatherings, not just for tango dancing, but for weddings and
birthday parties.
> But, I agree that 1955 can date the start of the decline.
The decline of what?
> (1) Men learned in neighborhood practices dancing one-on-one with
each other, starting as a follower, before being accepted as a leader.
Tango was always taught man to man since the 1900s to 1950s.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by followers or leaders, but
there were tango academies as early as the 1920s, and the men had to
find practice partners because the women were not allowed to
participate in practices like they do today.
The practice partners were primarily drag queens and travesties.
> (2) Women learned in a completely different methodology from today.
They were normal people, not trained dancers from ballet or modern. The
whole idea of technique and decorations of tango is completely
different from today. (Women's technique classes for boleos???)
Normal people?
Women learned to dance with their brothers, cousins, fathers and
uncles, and among each other.
>(1) Argentine folk dancers, stage performers, and trained ballet
dancers have been the primary teachers inside & outside of Buenos
Aires, as well as inside from 1970s to the present.
Eduardo, Mingo, Antonio Todaro, Balmaceda, Pupi, Pepito, were not
Argentine folk dancers, stage performers, or trained ballet dancers.
They, along hundreds of anonymous great teachers taught tango before
the tourist dollars and euros brought back the prostitution of values
to our city along with the unemployed folk dancers and psychologists
who made a career change encouraging the likes of you to become
purveyors of bullshit for the sake of their coveted trips to the US.
> Blah, blah, blah, blah...
>Does this mean that tango around the world today is completely an
artificial, inauthentic construct?
No, only in cities where people like you manage to fool people with
bullshit and anti-Argentinian bias promoting a false sense of
accomplishment by convincing them that paying you for setting up a
three-ring tent is holier than paying those sorry ass Argentinians who
drop their pants at the sight of con artist.
>Is tango in Buenos Aires today, relatively authentic or not authentic
at all?
It will always be authentic and available to those who accept it as
such.
> Is the Argentine cultural context sufficient to create authenticity?
Yes, of course.
> Does the European or US or Japanese cultural context by definition
cause inauthenticity?
No, it is the Europeans, Americans and Japanese individuals who can't
stand the thought of seeing average Argentinians doing something so
sublime so easy, that brings all the intellectualism, rationalization
and denial about the existence of a tango without roots and without
ownership.
Dream on suckers...
Hector Maselli
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:38:57 +0200
From: cella <cella@TTNET.NET.TR>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
bravo!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 10:29 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
> stermitz@TANGO.ORG wrote,
>
> > Ah, the old "AUTHENTICITY" canard.
>
> Ah, the short conniving "STERMITZ" canard.
>
> > Yes, tango has to be seen as the urban folkdance of Buenos Aires in
> the 1930s, 40s & 50s, when it was hugely popular.
>
> I'm so disgusted by your disingenuous put down of our living culture
> and the way you exploit the ignorance of people who lack self-respect
> and self-esteem, that I am not going to bother flaming your sorry
> petulant and arrogant midget ass.
> Instead, I'm going to paraphrase some of our living authorities in the
> subject of tango.
>
> Tango is a popular music which has not being turned into folklore.
> Tango is not folklore, in any of its arts. Its creators are fellows and
> comrades of artists who are far from being creators of folklore.
> - Horacio Ferrer
>
> > I disagree with him that tango completely stopped being a folkdance
> in 1955
>
> The significance of the year 1955, for those folks who are afraid to
> use their brains and feel intimidated by the barrage of bullshit flung
> from a mile high soap box, is that the regime of General Juan Peron was
> toppled by a military insurrection. Politics aside, the activities of
> tango were only affected because of a state of siege that discouraged
> public gatherings, not just for tango dancing, but for weddings and
> birthday parties.
>
> > But, I agree that 1955 can date the start of the decline.
>
> The decline of what?
>
> > (1) Men learned in neighborhood practices dancing one-on-one with
> each other, starting as a follower, before being accepted as a leader.
> Tango was always taught man to man since the 1900s to 1950s.
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by followers or leaders, but
> there were tango academies as early as the 1920s, and the men had to
> find practice partners because the women were not allowed to
> participate in practices like they do today.
>
> The practice partners were primarily drag queens and travesties.
>
> > (2) Women learned in a completely different methodology from today.
> They were normal people, not trained dancers from ballet or modern. The
> whole idea of technique and decorations of tango is completely
> different from today. (Women's technique classes for boleos???)
>
> Normal people?
> Women learned to dance with their brothers, cousins, fathers and
> uncles, and among each other.
>
> >(1) Argentine folk dancers, stage performers, and trained ballet
> dancers have been the primary teachers inside & outside of Buenos
> Aires, as well as inside from 1970s to the present.
>
> Eduardo, Mingo, Antonio Todaro, Balmaceda, Pupi, Pepito, were not
> Argentine folk dancers, stage performers, or trained ballet dancers.
> They, along hundreds of anonymous great teachers taught tango before
> the tourist dollars and euros brought back the prostitution of values
> to our city along with the unemployed folk dancers and psychologists
> who made a career change encouraging the likes of you to become
> purveyors of bullshit for the sake of their coveted trips to the US.
>
> > Blah, blah, blah, blah...
> >Does this mean that tango around the world today is completely an
> artificial, inauthentic construct?
>
> No, only in cities where people like you manage to fool people with
> bullshit and anti-Argentinian bias promoting a false sense of
> accomplishment by convincing them that paying you for setting up a
> three-ring tent is holier than paying those sorry ass Argentinians who
> drop their pants at the sight of con artist.
>
> >Is tango in Buenos Aires today, relatively authentic or not authentic
> at all?
>
> It will always be authentic and available to those who accept it as
> such.
>
> > Is the Argentine cultural context sufficient to create authenticity?
>
> Yes, of course.
>
> > Does the European or US or Japanese cultural context by definition
> cause inauthenticity?
>
> No, it is the Europeans, Americans and Japanese individuals who can't
> stand the thought of seeing average Argentinians doing something so
> sublime so easy, that brings all the intellectualism, rationalization
> and denial about the existence of a tango without roots and without
> ownership.
>
> Dream on suckers...
>
> Hector Maselli
>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:20:50 -0800
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
Clap,clap,clap....Bravo Hector!..
Daniel.
--- Hector Maselli <maselli@GATE.NET> wrote:
> stermitz@TANGO.ORG wrote,
>
> > Ah, the old "AUTHENTICITY" canard.
>
> Ah, the short conniving "STERMITZ" canard.
>
> > Yes, tango has to be seen as the urban folkdance
> of Buenos Aires in
> the 1930s, 40s & 50s, when it was hugely popular.
>
> I'm so disgusted by your disingenuous put down of
> our living culture
> and the way you exploit the ignorance of people who
> lack self-respect
> and self-esteem, that I am not going to bother
> flaming your sorry
> petulant and arrogant midget ass.
> Instead, I'm going to paraphrase some of our living
> authorities in the
> subject of tango.
>
> Tango is a popular music which has not being turned
> into folklore.
> Tango is not folklore, in any of its arts. Its
> creators are fellows and
> comrades of artists who are far from being creators
> of folklore.
> - Horacio Ferrer
>
> > I disagree with him that tango completely stopped
> being a folkdance
> in 1955
>
> The significance of the year 1955, for those folks
> who are afraid to
> use their brains and feel intimidated by the barrage
> of bullshit flung
> from a mile high soap box, is that the regime of
> General Juan Peron was
> toppled by a military insurrection. Politics aside,
> the activities of
> tango were only affected because of a state of siege
> that discouraged
> public gatherings, not just for tango dancing, but
> for weddings and
> birthday parties.
>
> > But, I agree that 1955 can date the start of the
> decline.
>
> The decline of what?
>
> > (1) Men learned in neighborhood practices dancing
> one-on-one with
> each other, starting as a follower, before being
> accepted as a leader.
> Tango was always taught man to man since the 1900s
> to 1950s.
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by followers
> or leaders, but
> there were tango academies as early as the 1920s,
> and the men had to
> find practice partners because the women were not
> allowed to
> participate in practices like they do today.
>
> The practice partners were primarily drag queens and
> travesties.
>
> > (2) Women learned in a completely different
> methodology from today.
> They were normal people, not trained dancers from
> ballet or modern. The
> whole idea of technique and decorations of tango is
> completely
> different from today. (Women's technique classes for
> boleos???)
>
> Normal people?
> Women learned to dance with their brothers, cousins,
> fathers and
> uncles, and among each other.
>
> >(1) Argentine folk dancers, stage performers, and
> trained ballet
> dancers have been the primary teachers inside &
> outside of Buenos
> Aires, as well as inside from 1970s to the present.
>
> Eduardo, Mingo, Antonio Todaro, Balmaceda, Pupi,
> Pepito, were not
> Argentine folk dancers, stage performers, or trained
> ballet dancers.
> They, along hundreds of anonymous great teachers
> taught tango before
> the tourist dollars and euros brought back the
> prostitution of values
> to our city along with the unemployed folk dancers
> and psychologists
> who made a career change encouraging the likes of
> you to become
> purveyors of bullshit for the sake of their coveted
> trips to the US.
>
> > Blah, blah, blah, blah...
> >Does this mean that tango around the world today
> is completely an
> artificial, inauthentic construct?
>
> No, only in cities where people like you manage to
> fool people with
> bullshit and anti-Argentinian bias promoting a false
> sense of
> accomplishment by convincing them that paying you
> for setting up a
> three-ring tent is holier than paying those sorry
> ass Argentinians who
> drop their pants at the sight of con artist.
>
> >Is tango in Buenos Aires today, relatively
> authentic or not authentic
> at all?
>
> It will always be authentic and available to those
> who accept it as
> such.
>
> > Is the Argentine cultural context sufficient to
> create authenticity?
>
> Yes, of course.
>
> > Does the European or US or Japanese cultural
> context by definition
> cause inauthenticity?
>
> No, it is the Europeans, Americans and Japanese
> individuals who can't
> stand the thought of seeing average Argentinians
> doing something so
> sublime so easy, that brings all the
> intellectualism, rationalization
> and denial about the existence of a tango without
> roots and without
> ownership.
>
> Dream on suckers...
>
> Hector Maselli
>
Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:25:20 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
Well this is interesting. At first I was just shaking my head in disbelief
and smiling at the over-the-top visciousness of Hector's attack. The only
thing positive I could think of was that Argentines are certainly a
passionate culture, which of course is one of the reasons we love them and
their tango.
The next thought, after Derik and Daniel applauded Hector, was that, wait a
minute, something is going on here. We should perhaps thank Hector for his
impolite and somewhat indirect way of telling us that at least some set of
Argentineans feel a very personal objection to the fact that Americans and
Europeans have so embraced "their" dance, and are feeling free to change it
without enogh years of in-depth understanding of the cultural and emotional
basis.
So to Hector and Daniel and Derik, I think what you seem to not understand
or appreciate (or maybe you do. and jyou ust don't care) is that we
(presuming to speak for American and European tango dancers) LOVE this
dance. We love the connection, we love the music, we love the elegance of
the steps, and yes, we love the culture. We want to learn more and get
better in all aspects. We don't primarily go to BsAs to visit with North
Americans and Eurpoeans, though of course that happens. We don't go there to
study dance from non-Argentineans. We go to do just as you suggest - to soak
up the authentic culture, to dance with and take classes from "real"
Argentines who can deepen our understanding and skill with the dance. We
LOVE this dance. We work hard, and even if you think we are off the mark,
still we ARE doing the best we can, handicapped as we are by not having been
born in Argentina.
The second thing is that while the Argentines may have created the dance, in
this global world, it's just not very practical to think that you still
"own" it and can control how it is changing under the influence of
non-Argentine cultures. As they say in the United States, you're pissing in
the wind to think that your verbal violence will change anyone (other than
motivating them to auto-delete your posts.)
Hector, you and I have shared some private posts, and again I thank you for
the wisdom you shared with me and I apologize if I take liberties to
publicly quote your gems of insight that deepened my understanding of one
aspect of the Argentine culture - i.e. sarcasm:
"Sarcasm is the British legacy to the illegitimate jewel of their Crown -
Argentina.
So when you are asking for the removal of an intrinsic aspect of the tango
in an
alleged tango list while at the same time expressing a desire for a positive
learning
environment for sharing tango experiences and knowledge, you are
contradicting
yourself and demonstrating the wrong way you have been brought into this
tango
world.
So, here is the most valuable lesson anybody will ever teach you:
Argentineans
only use sarcasm with their friends and those who they respect. It is a way
of
life and it just overflows in the essence." [end quote]
Hector you clearly have a lot of valuable insight to share with the world
tango community. Even in your post to Tom there were several valid comments
about the historical development of tango. But they were completely hidden
by your passion and violence. Are those the only communication tools in your
kit? If you just want to stand on your own soapbox and spew your anger, well
go ahead. But it 's not very productive. Does the Argentine culture not have
a place for diplomacy and reasoned discourse? Could you not show some
sensitivity to "our" cultures, and speak your undeniably valid truths with
just a little emotional restraint? We can all benefit from your experience
and your culture. But viscious attacks don't play in Poughkeepsie.
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:02:51 -0600
From: Hector Maselli <maselli@GATE.NET>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
On Mar 17, 2005, at 2:00 AM, Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>So to Hector and Daniel and Derik, I think what you seem to not
understand
>or appreciate (or maybe you do. and jyou ust don't care) is that we
>(presuming to speak for American and European tango dancers) LOVE this
dance.
Please tell me what does love have to do?
Your 'love' for our culture and our country stops short at the
chopstick english of some compatriots who sound like mumbling fools
even when they can be seen teaching on Buenos Aires TV four days a week
on a regular basis. Most great dancers and teachers can't speak
english, that is a fact. Derik has it right, learn our language, don't
speak for us.
Your 'love' for our dance, which we own, turns into patronizing
imperialistic American discourse as soon as somebody calls your bluff,
your vanity, your hubris. The natives are 'angry, they must have run
out of bananas. Watch out they may send over a few to screw our women
with their close embrace and greasy hair ways.
Please Jay, teach me how to be a nice American boy from the
countryside. Teach me how to insult people saying nice things and
sounding polite. Teach me the fine art of treating other cultures the
way colonialists have done for centuries.
Please magnanimous American males, forgive my trespasses and my
violation of the rules of a list created by non-argentines for
non-argentines. Forgive me for invading your comfort zone, for stepping
out of place and intruding in a private lodge where you decide when,
how and what we can be allowed to say about the tango you took from our
wombs to adapt it to your more advanced and wealthy ways of life in a
kind and gentler global way.
I don't want to be the one that tests the patience of compassionate
American men. I don't want to force them to send again dapper, polite,
educated military observers to teach our generals how to kill our women
and steal babies from their wombs, how to dump the tortured bodies of
our young men from shiny planes into the ocean. Because these men will
not be able to continue passing on the secrets of tango from one
generation to another creating another crisis, another gap, another
inconvenience for nice Americans would just 'LOVE' this dance.
Every anniversary of the disappearance of my best friends, I go to
Pompeya to pray for their lost lives, for the pain and anguish their
families will carry on them for the rest of their lives, but I tell
them not to worry because nice American men will fill the gap they have
left, and teach us again who we are, who are our good and bad musicians
and who among us is a certified dancer and who is not.
Nice American men, thank you for the thousand hours of English lessons
at ICANA. I hope to make you proud by speaking your language with awe
and respect while minding my indigenous manners. We are passionate and
violent, we can't hold our anger they way you hold the desire to love
your mother, but we are not stupid enough to forget who owns the bombs
and who are the nice American men who are not afraid to use them to
persuade those who don't understand your superior way and rules of
etiquette.
Yes J in Portland, viscious attacks don't play in Poughkeepsie, they
have better captive audiences in Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala and
even in Bagdad.
H in Puente Alsina
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:06:47 -0600
From: Hector Maselli <maselli@GATE.NET>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
On Mar 17, 2005, at 2:00 AM, On Mar 17, 2005, at 8:20 AM, Ecsedy Áron
wrote:
> Please do YOUR people the favour and don't screw their business by
creating
> an extremist image of Argentines.
You have a very high opinion of myself.
> BTW: I don't think you are Argentine at all.
You have a very high opinion of your thoughts.
> At least you haven't been
> _living_ in Argentina for quite a while. Say 15 years or more. It
shows on
> your use of English.
You caught me.
How could I pass for an Argentinian when every Hungarian worth his
goulash knows that there are no educated Argentinians. We lease our
diplomats, economists and scientists from Rent-N-Argie in New Delhi.
> Also: If you are to spam the list at least use your real name.
OK.
My real name is =?iso-8859-2?Q?Maselli_=C1ron?=Andres
=?iso-8859-2?Q?Hector?DNI 773804365
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:12:05 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
Dear Hector,
> On Mar 17, 2005, at 2:00 AM, On Mar 17, 2005, at 8:20 AM, Ecsedy Áron
> wrote:
You are mixing up something I did not write a letter to you.
Best regards,
Aron
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:18:27 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
Hector,
Thank you, sincerely, for so eloquently sharing the depth of your pain.
J
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:37:51 -0600
From: Hector Maselli <maselli@GATE.NET>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
On Mar 17, 2005, at 8:25 AM, astrid wrote:
>Lo siento, sen~or.
>You are speaking from pain. I know, that I will never be able to fully
>understand what it is like to live in a country where all this
happened.
Thank you señorita Astrid.
>But just as I do not like to be blamed for what the Nazis did before I
was
>born, I would like to remind you, that there are also a few reasonable
>people on this list, and not everybody who is American deserves to be
blamed
>for what the CIA did, nor for what Bush is doing now.
I am glad you see my point.
People can not be blamed for what their elected officials do, only for
electing them.
But that is not the point.
The point is that we are supposed to accept the way some of these
people insult our intelligence by pretending to be experts on things
they invent to make themselves feel important.
The point is that we are supposed to read distorted realities of our
lives, and feel grateful that their money, their superior intellect and
their global reach allow them to rip off what we consider heritage and
they call authenticity canard.
Now, we have also to admit as to not being Argentinians, or being
extremist Argentinians because we can tell the FMI to take their loans
and shove them, or call a spade a spade.
> I have a few Argentine friends in Berlin, who escaped to Europe in the
>Seventies, who brought the tango with them and who I believe,
contributed
>and still contribute a lot to our culture.
I sympathize with every brother and sister who had to severe their
roots because of the guerra sucia, but I'd call their bluff too if they
claim they have brought with them anything but their mates and
bombillas.
Historically, people of tango have never been able to afford the luxury
of escaping from anything but the temptation to compromise our values.
Thank you Derik, Manuel, Daniel.
This is it for me,
Hector Andres Maselli
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:25:20 -0500
From: John Gleeson <johngleeson1@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
Can anyone spell "chip on the shoulder" ?
John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
On Mar 17, 2005, at 8:25 AM, astrid wrote:
>Lo siento, sen~or.
>You are speaking from pain. I know, that I will never be able to fully
>understand what it is like to live in a country where all this
happened.
Thank you señorita Astrid.
>But just as I do not like to be blamed for what the Nazis did before I
was
>born, I would like to remind you, that there are also a few reasonable
>people on this list, and not everybody who is American deserves to be
blamed
>for what the CIA did, nor for what Bush is doing now.
I am glad you see my point.
People can not be blamed for what their elected officials do, only for
electing them.
But that is not the point.
The point is that we are supposed to accept the way some of these
people insult our intelligence by pretending to be experts on things
they invent to make themselves feel important.
The point is that we are supposed to read distorted realities of our
lives, and feel grateful that their money, their superior intellect and
their global reach allow them to rip off what we consider heritage and
they call authenticity canard.
Now, we have also to admit as to not being Argentinians, or being
extremist Argentinians because we can tell the FMI to take their loans
and shove them, or call a spade a spade.
> I have a few Argentine friends in Berlin, who escaped to Europe in the
>Seventies, who brought the tango with them and who I believe,
contributed
>and still contribute a lot to our culture.
I sympathize with every brother and sister who had to severe their
roots because of the guerra sucia, but I'd call their bluff too if they
claim they have brought with them anything but their mates and
bombillas.
Historically, people of tango have never been able to afford the luxury
of escaping from anything but the temptation to compromise our values.
Thank you Derik, Manuel, Daniel.
This is it for me,
Hector Andres Maselli
--
o
send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
--
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:27:27 -0800
From: Tanguera Alegra <tanguers_alegra@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: tango as an Authentic Folkdance
I rarely post, but these personal attacks on Tom Stermitz & Tine cannot go without comment.
Growing up in a football-mad culture (not the US) I was always taught to play the ball, not the person, whether in a debate or a backyard game, yet the list frequently descends to the level of insulting individuals.
Can we all please remember to discuss the ideas, as the level of debate sinks very low when assumptions are made about people based on a few of their comments. I have been a subscriber to this list since 1999, and have suffered my share of private flames. I may disagree with your points (e.g Derik exhorting me (a vegetarian) to eat steak so as to experience the 'real' Argentine culture) but regardless of my attitude to the people here, it behoves ALL of us to treat everybody with respect and acceptance. As they say in the East: " there are many paths but one way".
I request that any replies to me are posted publicly as I reserve the right to post publicly anything that is sent to me in private.
Do not write to me personally, unless requested. All other mail will be deleted, unread.
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:00:28 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
Jay,
Privately, many Argentine tango teachers/dancers have told that they resent
the way most foreigners (mostly American and European males) act and dance
at the milongas in BA. The 2 complaints I hear are: Bad dancers but they
act as if they know it all.
I have hear a few European teachers say that they think they are better than
Argentineans.
In my experience, I found Argentines to be welcoming when one is there to
really learn the dance. Speaking Spanish is also a big factor.
I think that they other aspect is the typical language barrier, it is
natural for foreigners to meet because most speak English and similar
cultures, the other side is that it mostly excludes Argentineans. The same
happens here in the US, many "white" people feel insecure/uncomfortable when
they see a group of Latin or Black people, particularly when we speak
Spanish. (I don't mean to sound racist, I am stating a fact that I have
observed and have being accused of).
The point is that cultural differences often become cultural barriers, some
of them even become wars. We need to work extra hard and be more inclusive
and understanding, and above all respect and celebrate our differences.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:38:42 -0600
From: Hector Maselli <maselli@GATE.NET>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
On Mar 17, 2005, at 12:33 PM, Iron Logic wrote:
>
> Tango cannot survive without the patronage from dancers all over the
> world in be it Japanese, Europeans and Americans.
No disagreement on this was ever suggested.
> So Hector, please, if you know how to tango, make some positive
> contribution, otherwise learn to tango instead of lecturing people,
> apparently your only virtue seems you are Argentine.
Well, that is a virtue that you'll never get to extol.
> PS: Personally I do not support cultural vandals who do not cannot
> tango, "dance" the way they like and call it tango. Most of these guys
> have their gurus in pristine city of Buenos Aires
There is nothing pristine about Buenos Aires so what's up with the
sarcastic remark.
Now, you seem to agree with me regarding our lack of support for
cultural vandalism, so why did you go for my nuts before saying what
you really had in mind? Hmm...?
If you come to Buenos Aires I'll ask you with a surprised look on my
face, "Are you Argentine?"
Will you then..?, well never mind, I have to see you first...
HAM
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:11:54 -0800
From: Jean-Pierre Sighe <jpsighe@SIGHES.COM>
Subject: Re: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
Thank you Hector. Sir, you are telling it like it is.
Jean-Pierre S.
-----------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 2:39 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
On Mar 17, 2005, at 12:33 PM, Iron Logic wrote:
>
> Tango cannot survive without the patronage from dancers all over the
> world in be it Japanese, Europeans and Americans.
No disagreement on this was ever suggested.
> So Hector, please, if you know how to tango, make some positive
> contribution, otherwise learn to tango instead of lecturing people,
> apparently your only virtue seems you are Argentine.
Well, that is a virtue that you'll never get to extol.
> PS: Personally I do not support cultural vandals who do not cannot
> tango, "dance" the way they like and call it tango. Most of these guys
> have their gurus in pristine city of Buenos Aires
There is nothing pristine about Buenos Aires so what's up with the
sarcastic remark.
Now, you seem to agree with me regarding our lack of support for
cultural vandalism, so why did you go for my nuts before saying what
you really had in mind? Hmm...?
If you come to Buenos Aires I'll ask you with a surprised look on my
face, "Are you Argentine?"
Will you then..?, well never mind, I have to see you first...
HAM
Keep unwanted email out.
Visit www.spamsubtract.com for more information.
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:17:45 -0600
From: Hector Maselli <maselli@GATE.NET>
Subject: Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
Dear Ara,
Modesty aside, this is too good not to let everyone one know how you
feel about futbol, tango and our very own way of life.
Thank you for the kind labels you apply to my way of thinking.
Hector
On Mar 17, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Ara Hayrapetyan wrote:
Dear Hector,
I regularly read this list and rarely reply to anything, but here is
my opinion on your e-mail. Perhaps you are angry at what happened in
your once prosperous country and perhaps you have some right to blame
the US for that, I don't know. I am not knowledgeable in that. But I
DO believe that your ideas about tango, ownership of tango and ability
to understand/appreciate tango are very extremal and are unhealthy to
the growth and development of tango and to the survival of tango in
the world and in Argentina.
Let me make myself a bit more clear. But before I continue, let me
make myself clear on one issue - I am not an American, though I am
currently a graduate student in the US.
First of all, your view is VERY racist/nazist. Why can't people
outside of Argentina understand/appreciate tango fully? Are we
inferior? Are we dumb, or emotionally incapable? Are we deaf and can't
hear music properly? Or what? Do streets in BsAs smell tango? No they
don't. (I've been there once some time ago when I had no idea what
tango is, and streets in BsAs didn't smell anything special). Does the
air in Argentina smell more tango-ish than that in Paris or New York?
No. Then what's the problem?
Here is another example. How about you ban everyone in Argentina from
playing football (soccer) unless they fluently speak English, live in
London and read Shakespeare and understand fully the British culture,
since football was invented in England. How about you dish Boca
Juniors and River Plate and all the others together with your two
world championships in '78 & '86. Does Maradona speak English?
Probably no, I don't know, but does that make him anything less than a
spectacular football player? No. Because football has long trespassed
any cultural monopolies and domination and it's an INTERNATIONAL
sport, regardless of who/when/where invented it.
Why is Tango Different? Tango has long stopped being a solely
Argentinean dance, and has long become and internationally popular,
accepted and loved dance. Many dancers of tango have never been to
BsAs and some (like myself) can not afford to go to BsAs. Stop
claiming something to be ONLY your own, which has long become and
international property, whether you like it or no.
Do you know that similar ideas were shared by England about football?
In fact England didn't participate to some of the early world cups (in
the 30's) because they thought everyone else is inferior and nobody
can compete with the English in a sport that was created by the
English. You know what happened in their first match when they decided
to play? They were beaten by Brazil if I am not mistake by a score of
4:1 (i.e. they were trashed).
Who told you that similar things won't happen to tango? In fact, I am
quite sure that 50 years down the road, some of the best tango dancers
will not be Argentines at all, in fact nowadays there are already
paople in say the States who are very beautiful dancers, non
Argentineans and very good teachers.
I don't understand why some people are SO AFRAID to share something so
beautiful which with other people in the world. We are NOT monsters,
we do NOT bite, and yes, we are capable of listening to music,
appreciating it, dancing to it, feeling it just as you are capable of
passing the ball, dribbling, scoring goals and playing defense and
strategy and feeling passionate about football.
Moreover, those same esteemed teachers in Argentina often rely on
foreigners for their daily leaving, they tour in Europe, US, Japan,
Russia, e.t.c, and make money from there, and if that source of income
didn't exist for those teachers, it isn't clear how much tango
would've survived in Argentina. So tango has much to thank to the
WORLD community for it's survival and current revival.
After all, tango was created by all those immigrants (I'm an immigrant
in to the US myself) from all those different parts of the world, so
it's sort of an international dance by definition....
To conclude, don't be so defensive and afraid to share something so
beautiful with everyone else. Especially since it doesn't belong to
you only.
Enjoy,
Ara Hayrapetyan
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Re. Tango as an Authentic Folkdance
> On Mar 17, 2005, at 2:00 AM, Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> >So to Hector and Daniel and Derik, I think what you seem to not
> understand
> >or appreciate (or maybe you do. and jyou ust don't care) is that we
> >(presuming to speak for American and European tango dancers) LOVE this
> dance.
>
> Please tell me what does love have to do?
>
> Your 'love' for our culture and our country stops short at the
> chopstick english of some compatriots who sound like mumbling fools
> even when they can be seen teaching on Buenos Aires TV four days a week
> on a regular basis. Most great dancers and teachers can't speak
> english, that is a fact. Derik has it right, learn our language, don't
> speak for us.
>
> Your 'love' for our dance, which we own, turns into patronizing
> imperialistic American discourse as soon as somebody calls your bluff,
> your vanity, your hubris. The natives are 'angry, they must have run
> out of bananas. Watch out they may send over a few to screw our women
> with their close embrace and greasy hair ways.
>
> Please Jay, teach me how to be a nice American boy from the
> countryside. Teach me how to insult people saying nice things and
> sounding polite. Teach me the fine art of treating other cultures the
> way colonialists have done for centuries.
>
> Please magnanimous American males, forgive my trespasses and my
> violation of the rules of a list created by non-argentines for
> non-argentines. Forgive me for invading your comfort zone, for stepping
> out of place and intruding in a private lodge where you decide when,
> how and what we can be allowed to say about the tango you took from our
> wombs to adapt it to your more advanced and wealthy ways of life in a
> kind and gentler global way.
>
> I don't want to be the one that tests the patience of compassionate
> American men. I don't want to force them to send again dapper, polite,
> educated military observers to teach our generals how to kill our women
> and steal babies from their wombs, how to dump the tortured bodies of
> our young men from shiny planes into the ocean. Because these men will
> not be able to continue passing on the secrets of tango from one
> generation to another creating another crisis, another gap, another
> inconvenience for nice Americans would just 'LOVE' this dance.
>
> Every anniversary of the disappearance of my best friends, I go to
> Pompeya to pray for their lost lives, for the pain and anguish their
> families will carry on them for the rest of their lives, but I tell
> them not to worry because nice American men will fill the gap they have
> left, and teach us again who we are, who are our good and bad musicians
> and who among us is a certified dancer and who is not.
>
> Nice American men, thank you for the thousand hours of English lessons
> at ICANA. I hope to make you proud by speaking your language with awe
> and respect while minding my indigenous manners. We are passionate and
> violent, we can't hold our anger they way you hold the desire to love
> your mother, but we are not stupid enough to forget who owns the bombs
> and who are the nice American men who are not afraid to use them to
> persuade those who don't understand your superior way and rules of
> etiquette.
>
> Yes J in Portland, viscious attacks don't play in Poughkeepsie, they
> have better captive audiences in Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala and
> even in Bagdad.
>
> H in Puente Alsina
>
>
>
