3413 Tango competition in Buenos Aires
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:05:34 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Tango competition in Buenos Aires
Dear listeros/listeras
When I was a kid and went for the first time to our social club (Obras Sanitarias, a club that it is still open ) , my uncle Americo , who was the maintenance responsable( and also a former rugby player) , took me to the rugby field and show me a small sign over the entrance " Dear Sportsman : the referee is always right . If you don t think this, do not enter into the field"
The tango competition is the same, if you consider the judges are not right, do not compete. It is part of sportsmanship to acept graciously the veredict.
Make your own tournament and your own rules, sit at the judge blazing chair, and hold your tango court as you please.
After all , is not so expensive, a $ 3.000 price can be collected with an entrance fee to contest , $ 100 per couple for 30 couples , and the winners get the jackpot.
Or you can give back the $ 100 at the end of the contest to each couple , saying that just to compete was a brave act ,and they deserve the prize .
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
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Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:03:05 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Tango competition in Buenos Aires
You are absolutely right, Alberto!
Only one thing.
If somebody wins a competition, please, do not call them the best tango
dancers in the world!
Igor Polk
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:15:54 +0200
From: Fulano de tal <campanero@SHINYFEET.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango competition in Buenos Aires
Bien dicho Alberto ;-)
Alberto Gesualdi said:
> Dear listeros/listeras
>
> When I was a kid and went for the first time to our social club (Obras
> Sanitarias, a club that it is still open ) , my uncle Americo , who was
> the maintenance responsable( and also a former rugby player) , took me to
> the rugby field and show me a small sign over the entrance " Dear
> Sportsman : the referee is always right . If you don t think this, do not
> enter into the field"
>
> The tango competition is the same, if you consider the judges are not
> right, do not compete. It is part of sportsmanship to acept graciously
> the veredict.
>
> Make your own tournament and your own rules, sit at the judge blazing
> chair, and hold your tango court as you please.
>
> After all , is not so expensive, a $ 3.000 price can be collected with an
> entrance fee to contest , $ 100 per couple for 30 couples , and the
> winners get the jackpot.
>
> Or you can give back the $ 100 at the end of the contest to each couple ,
> saying that just to compete was a brave act ,and they deserve the prize .
>
>
> Warm regards
> Alberto Gesualdi
> Buenos Aires
>
>
> A tu celular ?no le falta algo?
> Usa Yahoo! Messenger y Correo Yahoo! en tu telifono celular.
> Mas informacisn aqum.
>
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Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:13:47 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Tango competition in Buenos Aires
Ah, I want to tell you something, Alberto, even though it seems to me I am
writing too much these days..
You know, there is a little problem in your reasoning.
"Referee" or any other "judge" means some sort of solid authority, as you
said very vividly. Taking part in competition you give up some of your
freedom. While Tango was created and has been supported by free people.
Freedom is one of the valuable things which tango lets to experience. I
believe a notion of authority in Tango is absurd.
How can an outsider be judging in tango what we value most? Connection,
intense meditation, skill of leading, improvisation, some other qualities
mentioned here recently.. Can you imagine competitions in yoga? People here
wrote how difficult it is to find who is a good dancer by visual impression
only. I myself consistently fail to do it.
Of course, it is fun to participate in a show, to compete, it makes the
blood boil in a new way. And to watch too. But it looks like many people do
not support the idea of competitions in tango which I am not able yet
logically to describe.
So, assume one wins, then what? We do not need competitions, we know who our
own winners are! There is the whole code about it recently discussed in
"invitation to the dance" thread.
Igor Polk
In reply to Alberto Gesualdi:
.."When I was a kid and went for the first time to our social club (Obras
Sanitarias, a club that it is still open ) , my uncle Americo , who was the
maintenance responsable( and also a former rugby player) , took me to the
rugby field and show me a small sign over the entrance " Dear Sportsman :
the referee is always right . If you don t think this, do not enter into the
field"
The tango competition is the same, if you consider the judges are not right,
do not compete. It is part of sportsmanship to acept graciously the
veredict."....
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:09:31 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango competition in Buenos Aires
Igor Polk wrote:
>While Tango was created and has been supported by free people.<
My 2 cents:
Many historians agree that Tango was created by blacks, most of them were
slaved or trying to pay out their owners for their freedom. Within the last
few years, as a result of world focus or prominence in minorities' social
issues more book writers and researchers have written on the historical
roots of blacks or afro-argentines.
The people who supported Tango during its origins were considered low status
to the point where reputable musicians would not dare to sign tango scores
under their names.
Best regards,
Bruno
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:11:58 +0000
From: "Russell Ranno" <russellranno@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
To: Tango-L@MIT.EDU
What is the deal with these tango competitions? I understand it from a
Ballroom perspective but it seems completely against the spirit of the
improvised social dance, especially in the hallowed Buenos Aires. What I
find equally perplexing is that Janice is reporting about it, someone I have
long considered to be a guardian of the milonguero ethos...
Does anybody have an interest in what kind of boleos are "allowed"?
Russell
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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 09:27:03 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
To: Russell Ranno <russellranno@hotmail.com>, Tango-L@MIT.EDU
>What I find equally perplexing is that Janice is reporting about it, someone I have
>long considered to be a guardian of the milonguero ethos...
Hear, hear, Russell...!
...particularly the last sentence of your first paragraph.
Very best wishes
Dani ~
`El Zorro de Tango' >:-)))))
~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
Email: dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Website: https://www.tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
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----- Original Message ----
Sent: Monday, 6 August, 2007 8:11:58 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
What is the deal with these tango competitions? I understand it from a
Ballroom perspective but it seems completely against the spirit of the
improvised social dance, especially in the hallowed Buenos Aires. What I
find equally perplexing is that Janice is reporting about it, someone I have
long considered to be a guardian of the milonguero ethos...
Does anybody have an interest in what kind of boleos are "allowed"?
Russell
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Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:42:39 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Dani and Russell,
You may not like Tango competitions and you may think they're against the spirit of Tango. But you'd better get used to them because I'm sure it will be a growing trend. It was interesting to read Tete's interview recently. He said that when he first learned and danced Tango in the 40s and 50s, there were Tango competitions in Buenos Aires almost every week, so it's not a new phenomenon.
The standard of Ballroom Dancing has reached incredible heights because of the competitive element. But not everyone chooses to be a competitor. So why should anyone be against Tango competitions? If you don't want to compete, you don't have to - just stick with your Social Dancing; what's the problem? A lot of people enjoy competition, especially when they've worked hard at something and think they're better than the rest. Why shouldn't they be given the opportunity to prove it?
Keith, HK
On Mon Aug 6 17:27 , Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ sent:
>>What I find equally perplexing is that Janice is reporting about it, someone I have
>>long considered to be a guardian of the milonguero ethos...
>
>Hear, hear, Russell...!
>...particularly the last sentence of your first paragraph.
>
>Very best wishes
>Dani ~
>`El Zorro de Tango' >:-)))))
>
>~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Russell Ranno russellranno@hotmail.com>
>To: Tango-L@MIT.EDU
>Sent: Monday, 6 August, 2007 8:11:58 AM
>Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
>
>
>What is the deal with these tango competitions? I understand it from a
>Ballroom perspective but it seems completely against the spirit of the
>improvised social dance, especially in the hallowed Buenos Aires. What I
>find equally perplexing is that Janice is reporting about it, someone I have
>long considered to be a guardian of the milonguero ethos...
>
>Does anybody have an interest in what kind of boleos are "allowed"?
>
>Russell
>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 12:17:04 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
To: keith@tangohk.com, tango-l@mit.edu
Keith,
You conveniently misunderstand.
I am a VERY competitive person (in fact, almost pathologically) in ANYthing. I'm not against tango competitions by any means. I simply echo Russell's very valid observations:
i. That "it seems completely against the spirit of the improvised social dance, especially in the hallowed Buenos Aires";
ii. "equally perplexing is that Janice is reporting about it, someone I have long considered to be a guardian of the milonguero ethos..."
Furthermore, is there a way of assessing/marking how each partner feels of the other within the dance? No? Being that a HUGE part of the dance is the passion/emotion conveyed between the two dancing together, it seems to me that competition not only initiates the demise from improvisation but also may prove to eventually kill the important emotional input in tango... ie tango itself. Perhaps the natural progression is for authentic tango (ie Argentine) to end up in the clinical basket currently inhabited by that rubbish Ballroom 'tango' (or so-called)...?
Further, furthermore, I am being drawn into a ridiculous argument I don't want to be in as it's so silly.
Very best wishes
Dani ~
`El Zorro de Tango' >:-)))))
~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
Email: dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Website: https://www.tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Online photogalleries: https://www.flickr.com/photos/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/
https://www.flickr.com/people/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Monday, 6 August, 2007 12:42:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
Dani and Russell,
You may not like Tango competitions and you may think they're against the spirit of Tango. But you'd better get used to them because I'm sure it will be a growing trend. It was interesting to read Tete's interview recently. He said that when he first learned and danced Tango in the 40s and 50s, there were Tango competitions in Buenos Aires almost every week, so it's not a new phenomenon.
The standard of Ballroom Dancing has reached incredible heights because of the competitive element. But not everyone chooses to be a competitor. So why should anyone be against Tango competitions? If you don't want to compete, you don't have to - just stick with your Social Dancing; what's the problem? A lot of people enjoy competition, especially when they've worked hard at something and think they're better than the rest. Why shouldn't they be given the opportunity to prove it?
Keith, HK
On Mon Aug 6 17:27 , Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ sent:
>>What I find equally perplexing is that Janice is reporting about it, someone I have
>>long considered to be a guardian of the milonguero ethos...
>
>Hear, hear, Russell...!
>...particularly the last sentence of your first paragraph.
>
>Very best wishes
>Dani ~
>`El Zorro de Tango' >:-)))))
>
>~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Russell Ranno russellranno@hotmail.com>
>To: Tango-L@MIT.EDU
>Sent: Monday, 6 August, 2007 8:11:58 AM
>Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
>
>
>What is the deal with these tango competitions? I understand it from a
>Ballroom perspective but it seems completely against the spirit of the
>improvised social dance, especially in the hallowed Buenos Aires. What I
>find equally perplexing is that Janice is reporting about it, someone I have
>long considered to be a guardian of the milonguero ethos...
>
>Does anybody have an interest in what kind of boleos are "allowed"?
>
>Russell
>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 09:05:59 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
My problem with a tango competition is that I'm concerned it might become like ballroom competitions. Before I started dancing, I didn't realize that "competition" ballroom is completely different from "social" ballroom. For example, competition ballroom is danced in "international style." In International style, the feet never close whereas they do in social. Then, you get into syllabus. In competitions, there are bronze, silver, and gold syllabi with specific patterns in each category. There is an invigilator who observes all the couples and notes if a couple danced a figure beyond their syllabus, e.g. dancing a gold pattern in a bronze competition. This can cost them demerits in the scoring.
I attended the NY Tango Championship. The only restrictions I remember are no lifts, ganchos or breaking the embrace. While those restrictions are fine with me, I just wonder if more restrictions are going to be added over time until a tango competition resembles a ballroom competition.
Michael Ditkoff
Waiting for the A/C technician on a hot, muggy day
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 09:09:38 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
To: russellranno@hotmail.com, Tango-L@MIT.EDU
Tango competitions have been around in BAires for a long time. Probably
since tango has been danced. The tradition of tango has involved formal and
informal competitions since the beginning. Many of the best dancers of the
golden age of tango made their names in competitions, performances, etc.
The big orchestras of the golden era had dancers who performed during at
least some of the orchestras' performances. Dance performances and
competitions have always been a part of the Argentine tango tradition. Dance
competition and performance is not antithetical to the culture that spawned
the tango.
Although many of us tango enthusiasts are more interested in the social
dance aspect of the tango, we need to be aware that the performance and
competition aspects of the tango are just as genuine and valid. We cannot
all be great tango performers or tango competition winners, but that does
not mean we cannot enjoy observing and even participating in such things.
Also, tango competitions and performances are not obligatory. We can all
choose to participate in these things or not.
Cheers,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: "Russell Ranno" <russellranno@hotmail.com>
>To: Tango-L@MIT.EDU
>Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:11:58 +0000
>
>What is the deal with these tango competitions? I understand it from a
>Ballroom perspective but it seems completely against the spirit of the
>improvised social dance, especially in the hallowed Buenos Aires. What I
>find equally perplexing is that Janice is reporting about it, someone I
>have long considered to be a guardian of the milonguero ethos...
>
>Does anybody have an interest in what kind of boleos are "allowed"?
>
>Russell
>
>Messenger Cafi open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served
>daily. Visit now. https://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline
>
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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:10:07 -0400
From: "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I think it is safe to say that Janis?s preferences and biases are pretty
well-known here. Anyone who follows this list very long knows where she is
coming from. Competitions, particularly those in BA, are part of the tango
world whether we care for them or not. And Manuel is correct; competition
among dancers has existed as long as there has been tango. The
competitions attract hundreds of people and generate a lot of interest.
Personally, I appreciate hearing the view of a skeptic like Janis who is on
the ground. Otherwise, the only news available on them would likely come
>from there own press releases. And questioning why Janis would report
information about them given her views is like expecting all war
correspondents to be in favor of war. Ridiculous. Fortunately, I?m pretty
sure Janis is not the type to let a little criticism deter her.
As far as the competitions themselves, I share the opinion that judging
virtually any artistic creation as being the best or better than someone
else?s creation is relatively meaningless. Regardless of the number of
rules imposed, it will always be too highly subjective, too personal.
However, having said that, I am also for anything that generates increased
interest in our Argentine tango. No one has convinced me that competition,
whether in tango, ballroom, art, or movies, regardless of its general
validity, serves to stifle interest rather than to generate attention and
interest. The more people who become interested in tango, the more rich
and diverse our community will become, thereby increasing its? chance of
survival.
Cynically, it sometimes seems to me that some are more interested in
continuing to play the big fish in a small pond rather than trying to
increase the size and number of fish in the pond. In deference to Chris
UK?s perhaps appropriate low opinion of many teachers, sometimes I am
afraid that were it not for teachers marketing Argentine tango, social
tango would simply die out, overtaken by far easier and accessible dances.
Some have said here correctly than the type of tango at competitions and
choreographed performances is considerably removed from social tango, and
therefore builds false expectations. And for those who become interested
enough to try tango themselves, it is true that some will be disappointed
and leave, but there will also be others who find the ?real? social tango
can be even more amazing, for all the reasons most of us here know. If
social tango is to survive, there must continue to be visible vehicles that
capture people?s attention and imagination, to draw them to it, even if it
sometimes is a little bait and switch. Some will find it was well worth
it.
WBSmith
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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:57:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
To: keith@tangohk.com, tango-l@mit.edu
You may remember that there was quite a scandal in "Ice Dancing"
at the Olympics not too long ago. I don't remember the details, but
I think "judging" an artistic evdeavor, and assigning points is rather
absurd.
The only way to do this objectively is to establish standards that will
be used to assign points. Standards can strangle creativity. The film
"Strictly Ballroom" is my favorite film which addresses the subject
of "competition" in dance.
We live with, for instance, with, "Dancesport" already.
How does that go?
Ballroom competes. Argentine Tango connects.
May it ever be so.
Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
Dani and Russell,
You may not like Tango competitions and you may think they're against the spirit of Tango. But you'd better get used to them because I'm sure it will be a growing trend. It was interesting to read Tete's interview recently. He said that when he first learned and danced Tango in the 40s and 50s, there were Tango competitions in Buenos Aires almost every week, so it's not a new phenomenon.
The standard of Ballroom Dancing has reached incredible heights because of the competitive element. But not everyone chooses to be a competitor. So why should anyone be against Tango competitions? If you don't want to compete, you don't have to - just stick with your Social Dancing; what's the problem? A lot of people enjoy competition, especially when they've worked hard at something and think they're better than the rest. Why shouldn't they be given the opportunity to prove it?
Keith, HK
On Mon Aug 6 17:27 , Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ sent:
>>What I find equally perplexing is that Janice is reporting about it, someone I have
>>long considered to be a guardian of the milonguero ethos...
>
>Hear, hear, Russell...!
>...particularly the last sentence of your first paragraph.
>
>Very best wishes
>Dani ~
>`El Zorro de Tango' >:-)))))
>
>~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Russell Ranno russellranno@hotmail.com>
>To: Tango-L@MIT.EDU
>Sent: Monday, 6 August, 2007 8:11:58 AM
>Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Competition in Buenos Aires
>
>
>What is the deal with these tango competitions? I understand it from a
>Ballroom perspective but it seems completely against the spirit of the
>improvised social dance, especially in the hallowed Buenos Aires. What I
>find equally perplexing is that Janice is reporting about it, someone I have
>long considered to be a guardian of the milonguero ethos...
>
>Does anybody have an interest in what kind of boleos are "allowed"?
>
>Russell
>
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