1169 Tango dancer as improvisational musician
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:37:45 +0000
From: Russell Ranno <russellranno@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango dancer as improvisational musician
Frank wrote:
Any additional thoughts on the relationship between dance 'musicality' and
music 'musicality'?
This is an interesting question and it's answer depends upon how you are
considering musicality. A purely classical pianist has struggled to develop
different sensibilities than a jazz player. The former requiring
extraordinary reading and interpretive skills (and perhaps more technical
ability), the latter requiring the ability to think, hear, and feel
improvisationally.
Ballet and ballroom dance share more of the interpretive aspects of
performing classical music, while tango is the jazz of dance. It seems to me
that anyone who comes from an improvisational music background (not limited
to jazz) would intuitively grasp the ethos of dancing tango and quickly feel
comfortable in it. But notice I didn't say, "would be good at tango". The
tango dancer is an improvisational musician whose BODY is his/her
instrument. It takes years to learn to play any instrument well enough to
improvise fluidly and the human body is quite a complex one at that!
Russell
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:55:59 -0400
From: Sue Stigleman <tangosue@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango dancer as improvisational musician
I've just read an interesting book called Thinking in Jazz:
The Infinite Art ofImprovisation (Chicago Studies in
Ethnomusicology Series) by Paul F. Berliner
The author spent a number of years interviewing jazz musicians
about how they learned to play and to improvise. It's fascinating
reading. It also shows clearly that jazz improvsation isn't some
kind of blind effort but is in fact based on years of honing a
number of specific improvisational techniques.
Another tango dancer in my community is reading it also,
and we're going to explore together how it relates to tango.
If anyone here picks it up and is interested in "joining" us,
let me know!
--sue
tangosue@earthlink.net
-------Original Message-------
From: Russell Ranno <russellranno@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: 04/15/03 08:37 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango dancer as improvisational musician
>
> Frank wrote:
Any additional thoughts on the relationship between dance 'musicality' and
music 'musicality'?
This is an interesting question and it's answer depends upon how you are
considering musicality. A purely classical pianist has struggled to
develop
different sensibilities than a jazz player. The former requiring
extraordinary reading and interpretive skills (and perhaps more technical
ability), the latter requiring the ability to think, hear, and feel
improvisationally.
Ballet and ballroom dance share more of the interpretive aspects of
performing classical music, while tango is the jazz of dance. It seems to
me
that anyone who comes from an improvisational music background (not
limited
to jazz) would intuitively grasp the ethos of dancing tango and quickly
feel
comfortable in it. But notice I didn't say, "would be good at tango".
The
tango dancer is an improvisational musician whose BODY is his/her
instrument. It takes years to learn to play any instrument well enough to
improvise fluidly and the human body is quite a complex one at that!
Russell
<a target=_blank
>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:57:01 -0700
From: "Lucy E. Lynch" <llynch@DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tango dancer as improvisational musician
Sue et al;
I'd recommend David Sudnow's "The Ways of the Hand" as well -
see: https://www.aber.ac.uk/tfts/journal/archive/sudnow.html
For a review of his recent re-write of this classic study on
jazz & improvisation.
Lucy E. Lynch Academic User Services
Computing Center University of Oregon
llynch@darkwing.uoregon.edu (541) 346-1774/Cell: 912-7998
On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Sue Stigleman wrote:
> I've just read an interesting book called Thinking in Jazz:
> The Infinite Art ofImprovisation (Chicago Studies in
> Ethnomusicology Series) by Paul F. Berliner
>
> The author spent a number of years interviewing jazz musicians
> about how they learned to play and to improvise. It's fascinating
> reading. It also shows clearly that jazz improvsation isn't some
> kind of blind effort but is in fact based on years of honing a
> number of specific improvisational techniques.
>
> Another tango dancer in my community is reading it also,
> and we're going to explore together how it relates to tango.
> If anyone here picks it up and is interested in "joining" us,
> let me know!
>
> --sue
> tangosue@earthlink.net
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Russell Ranno <russellranno@HOTMAIL.COM>
> Sent: 04/15/03 08:37 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango dancer as improvisational musician
>
> >
> > Frank wrote:
> Any additional thoughts on the relationship between dance 'musicality' and
> music 'musicality'?
>
>
> This is an interesting question and it's answer depends upon how you are
> considering musicality. A purely classical pianist has struggled to
> develop
> different sensibilities than a jazz player. The former requiring
> extraordinary reading and interpretive skills (and perhaps more technical
> ability), the latter requiring the ability to think, hear, and feel
> improvisationally.
>
> Ballet and ballroom dance share more of the interpretive aspects of
> performing classical music, while tango is the jazz of dance. It seems to
> me
> that anyone who comes from an improvisational music background (not
> limited
> to jazz) would intuitively grasp the ethos of dancing tango and quickly
> feel
> comfortable in it. But notice I didn't say, "would be good at tango".
> The
> tango dancer is an improvisational musician whose BODY is his/her
> instrument. It takes years to learn to play any instrument well enough to
> improvise fluidly and the human body is quite a complex one at that!
>
> Russell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <a target=_blank
>
> >
>
>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:11:16 -0700
From: Rick FromPdx <bugs1959bunny@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango dancer as improvisational musician
I've been thinking about this idea, this afternoon while we were putting put Alex Kreb's refurbished sign, on the roof of his dance place. I have to agree with this notion. Tango is unique, in that there is no repeating rhythms that the dance steps are tied to (for lack of a better word; overlaid? I dunnoo). Waltz has 1,2,3, West Coast/LindyHop has 6 & 8 count patterns, etc. The leader has lots of latitude where to step, in which direction, on which foot & when to do it. Pausing, traspies & so on. From the follower's perspective, Tango is almost totally led, no? The leader has to keep track which foot they have weighted, where they can step next, are her feet crossed. West Coast is the only dance I know that isn't totally led. There is a tug on the 1st count, the move gets shaped by the leader, but the follower needs to know where her footworks goes & when. Plus she can hijack the lead, pause in very places & "say something" thru her dancing & I'm sure there's more... think,think,think... Rick PS: The sign
is really cool! It has the illusion of motion & is grandfathered into the location. I believe its hard to get one installed/approved new if stuff is moving on the sign & costs $$$. Pete & I had really fun visit with Alex's Mom who is visiting from the SF area.
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:44:00 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Tango dancer as improvisational musician
Sue,
This relates very directly on the musicality thread that has been going
on.
As I read everyone's thoughts on musicality I get the sense that it is
generally thought that new tango dancers don't feel the music. There
are many suggestions about what we should teach to help people along.
My experience is different with beginners. I see a lot of new people
because I teach the beginning class before the Monday milonga here in
Portland. I like to talk with new people, especially the ones who end
up staying for the milonga.
In my experience most people who try tango and get hooked like the music
a lot. If they are having any major frustration it is that they don't
have the skills, and the movements yet to express in dance what they
already feel in the music. Of course new people are also often
frustrated by people who teach them on the dance floor when they just
want to dance and have some fun, but that is a different thread.
Now when Sue brings up the idea that by studying how musicians improvise
music we might learn something for dancing, I am standing up and
cheering. I also play music, and when I realized that improvising in
dance is exactly like improvising music my dance was forever changed. I
felt silly afterward that I hadn't recognized this earlier.
When you are playing music, there comes a point when you are no longer
thinking in words at all. There is just sound, and feeling. You
translate your feeling directly to sound through your instrument, no
time to think about it or plan it. Obviously you have to be pretty
familiar with your instrument to do this, and you have to be familiar
with the kind of music you are playing as well. It is an amazing
experience when you wake up a bit in the middle of it and realize that
none of the musicians on the band are thinking in words any more, you
are all communicating with each other through the sound you make.
Something happens to the music when everyone is in this 'zone', and
people listening feel it immediately. The effect is electric.
When this same thing began happening to me on the dance floor I finally
recognized what we are trying to do in our dancing. When I am dancing I
can feel when my partner quits thinking, and is just feeling the music,
and the movement, and when she gets into the zone, I have the chance to
follow her. Then for a few passages of the song, hopefully the whole
song we move together in the shared feeling of the music. We never
think about steps, phrasing, or anything. We simply experience the
music, almost from inside, as though we exist inside the sound, and the
music makes the phrases, the feeling, the rhythm, and we respond without
knowing, or caring to know why.
Obviously beginners can't do this right away. You can't pick up a new
instrument and improvise on it right away either. You have to get to
know the thing before it can become an extension of you. Dance is no
different, we have to learn how to move.
When I teach tango I like to present small, relatively simple steps,
steps that later can be combined into larger phrases and such. I try to
work with the music right away and I don't want people thinking too much
about steps. You can see them thinking at first and they can't get on
the music, but when they relax and move they find the music pretty
quickly. As they progress I like to work with combinations of these
simple steps, getting them used to combining things, and seeing
connections between things.
Now go back and spend some time with a favorite jazz album and listen to
the solos. If you listen you hear little phrases that pop up again and
again, probably in slightly modified form, and you hear how the musician
is improvising. The little phrases are a little like words, or maybe
syllables. The longer phrases are a bit like sentances, and can only
last as long as the musicians breath (if the musician is playing a wind
instrument). You begin to hear the musician's music as an expressive
language. What does this language mean? I heard a great quote from a
musician on this question. He said "If I knew what it meant I wouldn't
have to play it".
Now go back and listen to some tango music. Better yet, dance to some
good tango music, and dance hours and miles to it. Dance until you
don't have to think about the movements. Listen to the music and dance,
and at some point you should begin to feel the flow of the music. Learn
what the lyrics are about and maybe it will help you find a feeling to
create with your movement. Be an actor and play with this story. Do
whatever you can to forget about steps and technique so you can just
dance. Then the magic can happen.
Abrazos,
Robert
Sue Stigleman wrote:
>
> I've just read an interesting book called Thinking in Jazz:
> The Infinite Art ofImprovisation (Chicago Studies in
> Ethnomusicology Series) by Paul F. Berliner
>
> The author spent a number of years interviewing jazz musicians
> about how they learned to play and to improvise. It's fascinating
> reading. It also shows clearly that jazz improvsation isn't some
> kind of blind effort but is in fact based on years of honing a
> number of specific improvisational techniques.
>
> Another tango dancer in my community is reading it also,
> and we're going to explore together how it relates to tango.
> If anyone here picks it up and is interested in "joining" us,
> let me know!
>
> --sue
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:41:33 -0700
From: Rick FromPdx <bugs1959bunny@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango dancer as improvisational musician
Couple more thoughts about leading. For any dance I know, I have a bag of moves & favorite sequences I like to do the moves in, still with room left for creating new stuff on the fly, improvising, playing off what my partner is doing & more. I guess this could relate to what musician's call their "chops"? Tango certainly has lots more latitude than other partner dances, not being coupled to repeating rhythms with associated steps laid on them. I still mostly dance it, combinations of slow & quicks. pause here & there perhaps. Check steps & the back step of molinetes almost always as a quick. Almost all of it is unconscious at this stage, having done it so often. Its almost organic in nature, as new stuff seems to come out of nowhere, sometimes. A muse or ?? R
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:17:57 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango dancer as improvisational musician
Rick from PDX wrote:
>Tango is almost totally led, no? ... West Coast is the
>only dance I know that isn't totally led. ... [S]he [the
>follower] can hijack the lead, pause in very places &
>"say something" thru her dancing.
I do not think it is all the case that only the leader gets to be the
improvisational musician. I have danced with a number of women who are
quite capable of hijacking the lead and rerouting the dance completely to
their own tastes. (I am not writing about back leading.) Some women do
it so strongly that the leader has no choice but to do what she wants.
Some do it with a light subtlety that can be overrun if the leader
chooses.
The first time I danced with a woman who hijacked with the lead, after the
first dance she asked me is it okay if I lead. My response was that it
was great fun. It is great to dance with someone who co-creates the
dance.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:38:47 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango dancer as improvisational musician
* From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
* Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:17:57 -0500
>Rick from PDX wrote:
>>Tango is almost totally led, no? ... West Coast is the
>>only dance I know that isn't totally led. ... [S]he [the
>>follower] can hijack the lead, pause in very places &
>>"say something" thru her dancing.
>I do not think it is all the case that only the leader gets to be the
>improvisational musician. I have danced with a number of women who are
>quite capable of hijacking the lead and rerouting the dance completely to
>their own tastes. (I am not writing about back leading.) Some women do
>it so strongly that the leader has no choice but to do what she wants.
>Some do it with a light subtlety that can be overrun if the leader
>chooses.
>The first time I danced with a woman who hijacked with the lead, after
>the first dance she asked me is it okay if I lead. My response was that
>it was great fun. It is great to dance with someone who co-creates the
>dance.
>
>Stephen Brown
The conventions of lead/leader and follow/follower are a basic structure
to the dance. Hijacking, or the exchange of lead and follow are
alterations within that basic convention. But I have found that dancing in
close communication with a partner can go beyond that convention to
something else.
It was in a contact improvisation class that I first heard this something
else called "the mind of the duet". I don't know where that phrase
originated. But having experienced dancing from "the mind of the duet" the
usual approach of dancing lead/follow always feels lacking, it's not
enough. I think we have to learn and develop lead/follow skills. I'm not
advocating abandoning that. But if all dancing consists of is me saying
"back step", follower "takes backstep", me saying " boleo", follower
"boleo's", I've lost interest in what I find a meaningless conversation.
I am using "saying" and "conversation" to refer to non verbal body
gestures and movements. What I want is a conversation that says, "This is
how I feel the music with you in this moment", and then I want to hear
from my partner, "and this is how I respond to you, and how I feel" and
then I respond, and at some point WE respond. Listening to her I hear
something and I move from what I heard, and she responds and the
improvisation moves into newness, something never before, and it's
exciting, and meaningful.
Afterwards I might say to her in words, "you know that movement when you
were kind of swaying in a soft circle, how did you come to feel that?",
and she might look surprised and say, "I? I thought you were doing it!".
Well, it wasn't me, it wasn't her, IT was something that emerged from the
mind of the duet. Note, mind singular. It wasn't led, it wasn't followed,
it was something WE discovered, created, danced together. And when We are
dancing like that, I feel like it is enough, that I need nothing else. I
feel that activity is completely satisfying in itself.
I hope Huck in his earlier post wasn't putting contact improvisation down.
It is not what was called in the 60's a group grope. There are very
specific skills involved and the key thing is learning to pay attention in
the MOMENT to your senses and your body, and all the other bodies. You
dance from the reality of the moment and not the concepts you may have
acquired about what dancing should be. It helps in developing floor skills
as well as partnering skills, and it was the class where I first learned
consciously about the wonderful possibilities of dancing from/with/in "the
mind of the duet".
Peace,
Jonathan Thornton
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:50:50 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango dancer as improvisational musician
* From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
* Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:44:00 -0700
>can feel when my partner quits thinking, and is just feeling the music,
>and the movement, and when she gets into the zone, I have the chance to
>follow her. Then for a few passages of the song, hopefully the whole
>song we move together in the shared feeling of the music. We never
>think about steps, phrasing, or anything. We simply experience the
>music, almost from inside, as though we exist inside the sound, and the
>music makes the phrases, the feeling, the rhythm, and we respond without
>knowing, or caring to know why.
Robert, I just have to thank you and say a resounding, YYYYYYESSSSSSS!!!
For me all the other stuff, the classes, techniques, etc was
only to get to that point, only then is dancing something I really enjoy
doing.
>language. What does this language mean? I heard a great quote from a
>musician on this question. He said "If I knew what it meant I wouldn't
>have to play it".
The key is that is is "felt" as "meaningful". Technique doesn't mean,
steps, leads, follows don't have THAT meaning, but they make possible
dancing that has that felt sense of "this is MEANING".
> whatever you can to forget about steps and technique so you can just
>dance. Then the magic can happen.
>
>Robert
ONCE a certain level of skill is reached such that it doesn't require
conscious focus, AND a dancer chooses to focus on the music and the
feeling instead of choosing to remain at the level of fancy steps THEN a
dancer can open to and allow the magic of improvisation, or inspiration,
the mind of the duet, etc to flow through there instrument, their
body/mind.
I am often frustrated because it seems so many dancers and teachers see
the steps and moves as ends in themselves. So often dancers only hear and
see ever more complicated steps and they are left with the impression that
dancing is just like gymnastics or some other sport, a dance sport of
difficult to perform moves instead of an art like music where the
technique is a means whereby and not an end in itself. The means whereby
to express what wants to be expressed in/to/with the music and the partner
in the flow of THIS moment.
I feel dancing can have a close relationship to music, and I very much was
heartened by your thoughts, Robert. Thanks.
Peace and transcendent dances for all,
Jonathan Thornton
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:01:46 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tango dancer as improvisational musician
Heyo,
Re: women who are quite capable of hijacking the lead
Steve wrote:
> Some women do it so strongly that the leader has no choice but to do what
she wants. Some do it with a light subtlety that can be overrun if the
leader chooses.
Quick opinion:
Having experienced both on several occasions, I feel that those who do it
strongly and by surprise are demonstrating a poor understanding of the very
nature of the dance. Leading in tango is, after all, a service and an
attempt (sometimes difficult) to entertain and please and maybe impress.
Followers 'exercising independence' can be so different and enjoyable when
it's subtle. After all, the follower should feel she has time and space to
interpret the music. If not, chau amor! And as long as the music remains
the focus, wonderful! When it gets strong it borders on classic passive
aggression (Like, "I'd rather do nothing than what you want me to do").
Then it's rarely musical and usually ungenerous. 'Chau amor' goes both
ways!
Best,
Frank - Mpls.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango [mailto:TANGO-
> L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Brown
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:18 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango dancer as improvisational musician
>
> Rick from PDX wrote:
>
> >Tango is almost totally led, no? ... West Coast is the
> >only dance I know that isn't totally led. ... [S]he [the
> >follower] can hijack the lead, pause in very places &
> >"say something" thru her dancing.
>
> I do not think it is all the case that only the leader gets to be the
> improvisational musician. I have danced with a number of and rerouting
the dance completely to
> their own tastes. (I am not writing about back leading.)
>
> The first time I danced with a woman who hijacked with the lead, after the
> first dance she asked me is it okay if I lead. My response was that it
> was great fun. It is great to dance with someone who co-creates the
> dance.
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
> Stephen Brown
> Tango Argentino de Tejas
> https://www.tejastango.com/
