622 Tango doesn't need more men
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:20:18 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Tango doesn't need more men
Nope, what tango needs is more boys.
An earlier post (the author of which I forgot, sorry)
mentioned that tango dies if young people don't get
interested in it. I think the rarity of young people
in tango (at least in my community) goes a long way
towards explaining why things are the way they are.
There really aren't enough leaders. I know that gets
repeated ad nauseum, but it really is a shame when
dancers sit around all night. However, no solution
aimed at getting men interested in dance can work.
That's why it hasn't worked yet. It never will, so
it's time to give up and try to achieve something
else.
Learning to dance is hard, especially if you're
already middle-aged. Starting anything is easier when
you're younger. Middle-aged men with careers and
family aren't nearly as likely to embark on classes,
lessons, and multiple milongas each week as boys would
be if the boys could be attracted. I believe if a
dance community is to be active and self-sustaining it
has to provide something that is considered cool by
young people (and wholesome by their parents).
I believe free outdoor events in New York, like the
dancing at Chelsea Market and Central Park, contribute
to the visibility of tango and provide a good
opportunity to spark interest. What about other ideas
for events tailored to young people (earlier, not in
bars, chaperoned, etc.) and classes reaching out to
those communities? Youth-oriented marketing is
established practice elsewhere in the arts.
So that's my question. How do you get the kids to
start, not the adults?
Jai
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:30:51 -0500
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango doesn't need more men
Jai mentioned that we (outside BS) need younger male (assuming leads)
The other day, a tanguero in my local milonga said we needed more young
ladies to "reel" in more males (he did not mention the age of the male, just
male).
---------
I realize one argument is that younger the dancers are, the longer they will
live to support the tango community.
But I think picking the age is close to age discrimination. Youth is not
the single lifeline to sustain an art form.
Without insulting anyone, I suspect most of the members at this List are
older than the projected "young" targets. Do we know what young people want?
Is the current climate of Argentine Tango in your local community friendly
or hostile to the real needs of young people?
Young people are free to experimentation; they can afford it. Does the
current tango environment allow experimentations, or impose all sorts of
social and financial inhibitions, much like an over-critical mother hovering
over their kids lecturing "no here" and "no there", to the point the young
people are turned off from tango?
In my first visit to a milonga (which qualified me as the "desirable
potential young blood"), I was advised that my professional dance shoes were
not tango dance shoes. There are webpages, leaflets, or even here,
discussing the proper etiquette in milonga and practica. There are
discussion on the dance role (lead vs. follow) each gender should follow.
There are colorful discussion on the art of invitation and rejection. On
and on...
The subject that triggered this thread is about marketing tango. Everyone
knows successful marketing needs successful retention.
Are we marketing the tango image to fit the youngster's taste, and after
they join, we show them the real McCoy?
How many young people are willing to accept such formality, not to mention
tango IS difficult from technical viewpoint? I have seen so many of young
people disappear from the scene.
If the current tango climate is to be upheld, than I would echo with Stephen
Brown's viewpoint: it is the depth of the supporters that is the key. These
people will passionately introduce the art form to their friends who already
have similar interests and value system as they are.
"An art is a dying one, if the old guards are treating it as one."
Bibi
>From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@@YAHOO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango doesn't need more men
>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:20:18 -0700
>YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg
>Nope, what tango needs is more boys.
>
>An earlier post (the author of which I forgot, sorry)
>mentioned that tango dies if young people don't get
>interested in it. I think the rarity of young people
>in tango (at least in my community) goes a long way
>towards explaining why things are the way they are.
>
>There really aren't enough leaders. I know that gets
>repeated ad nauseum, but it really is a shame when
>dancers sit around all night. However, no solution
>aimed at getting men interested in dance can work.
>That's why it hasn't worked yet. It never will, so
>it's time to give up and try to achieve something
>else.
>
>Learning to dance is hard, especially if you're
>already middle-aged. Starting anything is easier when
>you're younger. Middle-aged men with careers and
>family aren't nearly as likely to embark on classes,
>lessons, and multiple milongas each week as boys would
>be if the boys could be attracted. I believe if a
>dance community is to be active and self-sustaining it
>has to provide something that is considered cool by
>young people (and wholesome by their parents).
>
>I believe free outdoor events in New York, like the
>dancing at Chelsea Market and Central Park, contribute
>to the visibility of tango and provide a good
>opportunity to spark interest. What about other ideas
>for events tailored to young people (earlier, not in
>bars, chaperoned, etc.) and classes reaching out to
>those communities? Youth-oriented marketing is
>established practice elsewhere in the arts.
>
>So that's my question. How do you get the kids to
>start, not the adults?
>
>Jai
>
>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:31:24 -0500
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango doesn't need more men
Jai mentioned that we (outside BS) need younger male (assuming leads)
The other day, a tanguero in my local milonga said we needed more young
ladies to "reel" in more males (he did not mention the age of the male, just
male).
---------
I realize one argument is that younger the dancers are, the longer they will
live to support the tango community.
But I think picking the age is close to age discrimination. Youth is not
the single lifeline to sustain an art form.
Without insulting anyone, I suspect most of the members at this List are
older than the projected "young" targets. Do we know what young people want?
Is the current climate of Argentine Tango in your local community friendly
or hostile to the real needs of young people?
Young people are free to experimentation; they can afford it. Does the
current tango environment allow experimentations, or impose all sorts of
social and financial inhibitions, much like an over-critical mother hovering
over their kids lecturing "no here" and "no there", to the point the young
people are turned off from tango?
In my first visit to a milonga (which qualified me as the "desirable
potential young blood"), I was advised that my professional dance shoes were
not tango dance shoes. There are webpages, leaflets, or even here,
discussing the proper etiquette in milonga and practica. There are
discussion on the dance role (lead vs. follow) each gender should follow.
There are colorful discussion on the art of invitation and rejection. On
and on...
The subject that triggered this thread is about marketing tango. Everyone
knows successful marketing needs successful retention.
Are we marketing the tango image to fit the youngster's taste, and after
they join, we show them the real McCoy?
How many young people are willing to accept such formality, not to mention
tango IS difficult from technical viewpoint? I have seen so many of young
people disappear from the scene.
If the current tango climate is to be upheld, than I would echo with Stephen
Brown's viewpoint: it is the depth of the supporters that is the key. These
people will passionately introduce the art form to their friends who already
have similar interests and value system as they are.
"An art is a dying one, if the old guards are treating it as one."
Bibi
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:14:57 -0400
From: Georgia Littleton <glit10go@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango doesn't need more men
>From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango doesn't need more men
>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:20:18 -0700
>
>Nope, what tango needs is more boys.
Now you're talking. Get 'em young, train 'em right. First sensible idea
he's come up with yet.
That's what Georgia says.
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:36:08 -0600
From: Linda Allred <lindallred@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango doesn't need more men--It needs equitable treatment for both
sexes!!!
In my opinion, the tango social scene is a relic of the dark ages. How many activities do we have in our lives today for which the women are =
expected to sit around waiting for the men to ask them to participate in the activity that they
want. Not just expected to wait, but very strongly pressured to wait,
rather than having an open comfortable environment in which either lead or
follow can express their desires by inviting someone to dance.
Look over your last month's worth of e-mails. Over and over you hear that the man should be free to choose the woman of his choice for the =
tanda of
his choice, etc. etc. If women were also asking the men to dance, not just
occasionally, but if it was comfortable and widely acceptable, we would not be sitting around waiting to be invited.
Do you think young people will put up with such silly "rules"?
I say down with the double standard! Let the men experience sitting around waiting for the dances they want all evening for a change. They =
are in the privileged position at the milonga. I am finding it more & more tiresome.
On June 20 Jai Jeffryes wrote:
> Nope, what tango needs is more boys.
>
> An earlier post (the author of which I forgot, sorry)
> mentioned that tango dies if young people don't get
> interested in it. I think the rarity of young people
> in tango (at least in my community) goes a long way
> towards explaining why things are the way they are.
>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 16:25:05 -0400
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Tango doesn't need more men--It needs equitable treatment for both
sexes!!!
Linda:
I'll go even further than you. Women SHOULD ask the men to dance. After
all, why should the men have a monopoly on the anxiety of being turned
down?? If women felt the sting of rejection, perhaps some of them would
think twice before they summarily turn down an invitation.
It's one thing to decline a dance because you've danced with someone who
wasn't good. (But then, you can't expect a lot from beginners so patience
is taught. It never stops amazing me how beginners who advance to higher
levels turn their backs on beginners that come after them. They become
"princes and princesses" of tango, thinking they are tango royalty and
can only dance with other members of royalty. They think they are too
good to dance with the hoi polloi.) It's something else to decline an
invitation when you've NEVER danced with that person. At least dance with
that person once!!
Thank goodness I don't run into this crap in New York. The women are
wonderful and non-judgemental; even the ones who are better dancers than
me. I can hardly wait for my July 3-8 trip to NY and the New York Tango
Festival July 17-21.
Come on July!! I can't wait for June to end.
Michael
Washington, DC
Linda Allread wrote
>
If women were also asking the men to dance, > not just> occasionally,
but if it was comfortable and widely acceptable, we > would not be
sitting around waiting to be invited. > I say down with the double
standard! Let the men experience sitting > around waiting for the dances
they want all evening for a change.
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:38:06 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Tango doesn't need more men--It needs equitable treatment for both
sexes!!!
Linda Allred <lindallred@EARTHLINK.NET> writes:
[...]
> Look over your last month's worth of e-mails. Over and over you
> hear that the man should be free to choose the woman of his choice
> for the tanda of his choice, etc. etc.
And women should also be free to refuse, when they do not wish to
dance.
> If women were also asking the men to dance, not just occasionally,
> but if it was comfortable and widely acceptable, we would not be
> sitting around waiting to be invited.
Comfortable to who? I'm quite comfortable being asked to dance by
women, and at the places I go to in London, it's perfectly acceptable
behaviour, as far as I know. I'm sure in some places (especially more
formal places in BAs) it wouldn't be, but in London it seems fairly
common.
It seems rather that many women feel uncomfortable asking. Men do,
too, of course---we just don't have a choice.
> Do you think young people will put up with such silly "rules"?
They seem to in (for example) salsa. It's perfectly acceptable for
women to ask men (or other women) to dance in salsa, but it's still
more common to see men asking women, or so it seems to me (I'm not
much of a salsa dancer, so I may have quite the wrong impression of
conventions).
I think women enjoy not having to ask. I'm sure I would. (I wouldn't
enjoy not being asked, of course.)
> I say down with the double standard! Let the men experience sitting
> around waiting for the dances they want all evening for a change.
> They are in the privileged position at the milonga.
Not at the milongas I go to. I've been asked to dance at each of
them, and nobody seemed offended. It's not common, but that's just
the choices that we make, not any kind of rule that I can tell.
> I am finding it more & more tiresome.
Try to find less formal milongas, where it's regarded as acceptable
for you to ask for dances?
[...]
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:27:22 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango doesn't need more men--It needs equitable treatment for both
sexes!!!
>In my opinion, the tango social scene is a relic of the dark ages. How
many activities do we have in our lives today for which the women are
expected to sit around waiting for the men to ask them to participate in the
activity that they
want. Not just expected to wait, but very strongly pressured to wait,
rather than having an open comfortable environment
Look over your last month's worth of e-mails. Over and over you hear that
the man should be free to choose the woman of his choice for the tanda of
>his choice, etc. etc.
Amen, Linda, this is so true. Sometimes I wonder, why the women even put up
with it. But: sometimes it is a matter having to choose between "living in
the dark ages" and not going to the milonga at all. I think, in Europe it is
more common for women to ask men, at least I have never heard a European
woman say things like:"I will always wait for a man to ask me. Yesterday I
sat out the entire evening, but I am not going to change my principles. I
want to be swept off my feet ! Asking a man would diminish my value as a
woman." (a summary of occasional postings I have seen on the list)
On the other hand, even in Europe, the overload of women longingly looking
at them while patiently waiting can get to a man's head, and I have been
turned down with a haughty "No, thank you" that would beat a 19th century
high class virgin, a couple of times in Berlin, when I tried asking myself.
Fortunately, these were exceptions, but the experience is hurtful enough, to
make you go back to being a good girl sitting on the bench, or else find
something more worthwhile to do.
In Tokyo, I have been to a a number of events, where the average of the
women's age was 32, and all the men were over fifty. And the men would wear
this arrogant air, like saying:"I only dance with women at least 20 years
younger than me. Less than 20 years younger is way too old to be worth my
attention." And they would walk around, sweep down on a young woman, as
though they were Prince Charming offering eternal happiness to the girl, pot
belly and all.
In a way, I am not surprised that in this situation many of these young
women here prefer to spend a fortune on regular private lessons with some
young handsome Argentine teacher.
One part of the "dark ages" that I have learned to appreciate, though, is
the leader-follower interplay. This too was hard for me to live with in the
beginning (esp. dancing with other beginners), but now I find, it can be
exhilirating, no matter how longgone this behaviour is in real life.
>I say down with the double standard! Let the men experience sitting around
waiting for the dances they want all evening for a change.
Linda, this is a nice idea, but I doubt this would work in a place where
only 30-40% of the people present are men, and you have to dance as a
couple.
If there were more men, some of them would naturally end up in the position
of being ignored in favor of better options. As long as it is "accept him or
risk another 20 minutes of sitting here", even a pot belly combined with
poor dance skills can look better than nothing to some.
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 22:20:21 +0200
From: "Eckert, Helene" <Helene.Eckert@ITU.INT>
Subject: Re: Tango doesn't need more men--It needs equitable tre atment for
both sexes!!!
Hello,
I tend to agree with what Linda wrote, although I find it very difficult to stand up and invite a man to dance, which I manage to do =
sometimes ... Why do the milonga organizers not decide, at some point in the milonga, that women should invite men? ... it could be a sort of =
game, they would do it for one tanda, 2 tandas... more .. and they could end up one day announcing that women are welcome to invite men =
during the whole evening !!!!
Tango is very much of a ritual and part of this ritual lies in the fact that men invite women... but we women all know that men do not dislike =
being invited, they can find it quite flattering (a man told me).. and after all, what I say to myself when I do stand up, I take the same =
risk as men: a refusal, while I may have the chance to dance with a good/very good/pleasant dancer who may have pleasure dancing with me... =
so, at the end of the day, if we do decide, we the followers, to play it on an equal footing wiht men, we may well realize that everybody, =
leaders and followers alike, will find it's more fun !
Do you know that in the Netherlands, in El Corte, women invite men and most of the good male dancers find it difficult to invite women: they =
do not have a chance, unless they refuse women !
Hélène (Geneva, Switzerland))
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Allred [mailto:lindallred@EARTHLINK.NET]
Sent: samedi, 22. juin 2002 19:36
To:
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango doesn't need more men--It needs equitable
treatment for both sexes!!!
In my opinion, the tango social scene is a relic of the dark ages. How many activities do we have in our lives today for which the women are =
expected to sit around waiting for the men to ask them to participate in the activity that they
want. Not just expected to wait, but very strongly pressured to wait,
rather than having an open comfortable environment in which either lead or
follow can express their desires by inviting someone to dance.
Look over your last month's worth of e-mails. Over and over you hear that the man should be free to choose the woman of his choice for the =
tanda of
his choice, etc. etc. If women were also asking the men to dance, not just
occasionally, but if it was comfortable and widely acceptable, we would not be sitting around waiting to be invited.
Do you think young people will put up with such silly "rules"?
I say down with the double standard! Let the men experience sitting around waiting for the dances they want all evening for a change. They =
are in the privileged position at the milonga. I am finding it more & more tiresome.
On June 20 Jai Jeffryes wrote:
> Nope, what tango needs is more boys.
>
> An earlier post (the author of which I forgot, sorry)
> mentioned that tango dies if young people don't get
> interested in it. I think the rarity of young people
> in tango (at least in my community) goes a long way
> towards explaining why things are the way they are.
>
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 22:11:00 -0600
From: Linda Allred <lindallred@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango doesn't need more men--It needs equitable treatment for both
sexes!!!
On June 22, Michael Ditkoff wrote:
"It never stops amazing me how beginners who advance to higher
levels turn their backs on beginners that come after them. They become
"princes and princesses" of tango, thinking they are tango royalty and
can only dance with other members of royalty. They think they are too
good to dance with the hoi polloi."
I so totally agree with this! If we really want to improve the tango
communities we live in, we should all be dancing with beginners and making
them feel welcome. What better marketing strategy do you need than to
create a welcoming atmosphere for those who are already interested enough to
walk in the door. I have seen so many beginners, and even experienced
dancers become turned off to the local tango scene because of this very
"better than thou" attitude that you have described. This attitude is
projected not only to beginners, but also to dancers who are students of
"other"teachers.
A local milonga is dominated by a clique-ish group, like the royalty which
you have described. This community advertises itself as "warm & friendly."
It's true, they are warm & friendly to visiting guests. But, IMHO, this is
hypocritical if you will not cross the line in the milonga to invite the
local students of another local teacher to dance. Those who sit on the
other side of that line would not use the terms "warm & friendly" to
describe this tango community.
Women inviting men to dance here is very discouraged (the topic of my
original frustrated message), unless you have an established interaction of
this sort with particular acquaintances, or I would certainly walk across
that line myself.
The dance is beautiful. The atmosphere is harsh.
Only the draw of that incredible high from a great dance keeps me going
back.
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 22:17:33 -0600
From: Linda Allred <lindallred@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango doesn't need more men--It needs equitable treatment for
both sexes!!!
On June 22 Helene Ecker wrote:
"Tango is very much of a ritual and part of this ritual lies in the fact
that men invite women... but we women all know that men do not dislike being
invited, they can find it quite flattering (a man told me).. and after all,
what I say to myself when I do stand up, I take the same risk as men: a
refusal, while I may have the chance to dance with a good/very good/pleasant
dancer who may have pleasure dancing with me... so, at the end of the day,
if we do decide, we the followers, to play it on an equal footing wiht men,
we may well realize that everybody, leaders and followers alike, will find
it's more fun !
Do you know that in the Netherlands, in El Corte, women invite men and most
of the good male dancers find it difficult to invite women: they do not have
a chance, unless they refuse women !"
This sounds so healthy and practical! Americans think of themselves as so
progressive & liberal, so where does this male-in-charge hold-over come
from? Makes no sense to me!
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:11:18 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango doesn't need more men--It needs equitable treatment for
both sexes!!!
----- Original Message -----
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:27:58 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango doesn't need more men--It needs equitable
treatment for both sexes!!!
--- Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Linda Allred" <lindallred@EARTHLINK.NET>
>
>
> I say down with the double standard! Let the men
> experience sitting around
> waiting for the dances they want all evening for a
> change. They are in the
> privileged position at the milonga. I am finding it
> more & more tiresome.
>
>
> Thats really funny, that double standard only exists
> where there are no good
> dancers of either gender. If there are good dancers
> out there, the women
> dancers will always be in high demand as will the
> good men dancers.
> It is not some
> silly outmoded rule that prevents women (or men)
> from getting to dance as
> much as they like, it is their own skill and ability
> with the dance and
> their personal appearance.
Manuel, please don't take this the wrong way; I say
this with utmost respect and no desire to offend...
WHAT A TOTAL LOAD OF BUNK!
If someone is sitting out a lot in New York City, it
has nothing to do with ability, and everything to do
with simple arithmetic.
(Lots o' women) + (few men) = (much sitting)
This city is chock full of expert dancers. In
particular, I am lucky enough to dance with one
brilliant tanguera who had a career as a professional
dancer. Even at her level, she can suffer the sitting
syndrome just like so many others. The causes are
neither ability nor attractiveness.
Just as Stephen emphasized in an earlier post, it
isn't men's attitudes that keep women from dancing,
it's the comparitively few numbers of men.
If women were the only ones who did the inviting,
there wouldn't be any men sitting all evening... for
the same reason there aren't any now. The reason why
is obvious to anyone who gets out their fingers and
uses 'em to count up on them how many of the two
popular genders there are present at the event.
I also liked Stephen's earlier point about the
dancefloor being no place for retribution. The
comeuppance that Linda hopes for men to receive if
they had to wait to be invited displays misplaced
resentment. I recently received a loud tongue-lashing
at a milonga from a woman who imagined I had decided
specifically never to dance with her. I had made no
such choice at that time (but certainly do now). It
just happens that there are fewer men than women.
No man, unless he's shy or somehow offensive, will
ever sit out no matter what his level of ability.
Even bad leaders can consistently dance entire
evenings without sitting out a single dance. In fact,
if a man really does need a break, he would be advised
to leave the room during that time unless he is
comfortable with graciously declining a dance
invitation from a woman.
Jai
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:47:24 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango doesn't need more men--It needs equitable treatment for
both sexes!!!
----- Original Message -----
