2508  Tango etiquette: when things go bad... Part 1 of 2

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:53:41 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Tango etiquette: when things go bad... Part 1 of 2

Michael Ealem wrote to the list recently about several problems he
encountered from dancers at milongas he hosted:

>>>

...There seems to be a tremendous amount of resistance to basic milonga
etiquette, specifically:
1. Not dancing against LOD (not just an occasional backstep, but extended
sojourns)
2. Not camping out in the outer lane or middle of the floor for extended
chit-chat
4. Not parking out in the outermost lane, throwing every trick you know,
taking two steps, throwing every trick...
6. Not weaving in and out of lanes, or cutting across the middle of the
floor...
<<<

If you decide to host a practica or milonga, it can be useful and fun to
think of tango leaders as wild animals, moody, unpredictable and difficult
to manage. You know, hormones are at high levels, the music is passionate,
we're playing together in this chemistry-filled game of emotionally intense
artistic and personal expression in which we share our bodies far more than
is typical in the rest of our lives. When dealing with wild animals, it is
often more effective to constrain their behavior by restructuring their
environment, instead of trying to train consistent specific behaviors into
these very distractible learners. One such environmental restructuring that
helps solve the problem in practica-type situations: splitting the available
floor space into 1) a non-social-dancing anything-goes practice space and 2)
space for those who wish to observe line-of-dance etiquette. This kind of
split currently works very well at Tango Colorado's Tuesday Denver practica,
with couples moving back and forth between the two areas as needed to suit
their tango goal of the moment.

But at a milonga, or in an environment where such a split is impractical,
sometimes there's no substitute for intervention. At a milonga in Berlin, I
saw a couple who were busy in the middle of the floor doing exaggerated
tango moves - big over-the-head lifts, off-the-floor body swings with flying
legs, etc. - with no apparent regard for the safety of other dancers. After
two or three such episodes, the organizer of the milonga talked to them, and
it ceased to be a problem. So that's one answer. Any host is responsible
for the environment he/she provides for guests in exchange for admission,
and has every right to take steps to insure the safety and pleasure of that
environment. It's an art in itself how to intervene with your guests like
that, and have it be both pleasant and effective.

But that relatively superficial answer doesn't get to the root of the
situation in many cases...because what we are often talking about has less
to do with crowd control and more to do with family dynamics. Many tango
communities have become extended families for their members, as we share the
emotional highs and lows in each other's lives: triumphs and tragedies,
births, marriages, divorces, illnesses, and deaths, all amplified by the
context of tango and the power of the dance to move us emotionally. In
this, tango families are similar to "real" extended families, where the
power of the dance is replaced by the blood ties that bind. In Argentina
during the Golden Age, practicas and milongas could be seen as an extension
of a family-oriented neighborhood culture, and locally respected people
would often take responsibility for running a practica or milonga in an
orderly fashion and teaching youngsters how to behave. In such settings,
there are tales of the "bastonero", a "respected elder" with a long stick
standing in the center of the floor. As I recall, the rule was if he
thought you were blocking the dance space or interfering with other dancers,
he'd tap you with the stick and you (and your partner) had to come into the
middle and dance near him for the rest of that song.

By my observations, some tango communities in North America are not yet
mature enough to have an "elder" who is universally respected, who sets the
tone for behaviors at social gatherings, in the way that parents or
grandparents often do for real families. If things are going fine in the
tango scene, this social void doesn't matter, and often things ARE
fine...but when things "go bad", there's often nobody to turn to who is in a
position of both authority and respect with all parties, and things can get
as messy as a houseful of kids with a sleeping babysitter.

One example: A friend of mine was dancing as a visitor in a tango community
in the USA. While dancing, he saw a large man in front of him take several
steps backward against the line of dance directly toward my friend's
partner. My friend put out his hand to ward off the approaching leader, and
was successful in avoiding a collision. The other man turned around and
accosted my friend, saying belligerently, "NOBODY pushes me around on the
floor!" My friend stood his ground and said "I was protecting my partner!"
As I recall, things settled down somehow, and blows were not exchanged there
on the floor. But my friend said later that several members of the local
community came up and apologized to him as a visitor, and mentioned that the
leader in question was a local "problem child."

It's well documented that some families unconsciously develop elaborate
patterns of denial and "enabling behaviors" in order to avoid confronting
dysfunctional behavior on the part of some beloved family members. Sad to
say, this pattern can be true of "tango families" as well. Eventually, if
anything is to change, it may be up to the other family members to confront
and intervene in some appropriate way with the problem child who is
unwilling or unable to change on their own. I spent years working in
front-line crisis conditions in psychiatric care units and alcohol treatment
centers, and I know that these sorts of family interventions are rarely fun.
But it can be done, with both compassion for the problem child, and with
firmness with respect to the community's interests.

(continued in Part 2)

Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:48:08 -0600
From: Darrell Sanchez <darsan@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette: when things go bad... Part 1 of 2

Greetings,
I am curious about list responses to the question of etiquette when the
problem is not limited to the merely oafish practices of teaching at
milongas, bad navigation, etc. What are other communities' experiences when
some guy is inappropriate or disrespectful toward the women?
Darrell Sanchez
Boulder, CO

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:44:11 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette: when things go bad... Part 1 of 2

>From: Darrell Sanchez <darsan@MINDSPRING.COM>
>Reply-To: Darrell Sanchez <darsan@MINDSPRING.COM>

>Greetings,
> I am curious about list responses to the question of etiquette when
>the
>problem is not limited to the merely oafish practices of teaching at
>milongas, bad navigation, etc. What are other communities' experiences
>when
>some guy is inappropriate or disrespectful toward the women?
>Darrell Sanchez
>Boulder, CO

Personally, I think that peoples behavior is their own individual
resposability. All these boorish
traits such as teaching at milongas, bad navigation and even innapropriate
behavior are not
in the province of the "community's" authority or control.

If a man is disrespectful to a woman and she is afraid and brings a
complaint to me or others,
then I can act or others can act on behalf of the aggrieved party. However,
if the woman can handle and does handle the oaf's faux pas or rudeness,
that's fine too. Also, it's the women's
part to discourage offensive behavor or plain avoid the creep.
Bottom line is that there is no organized "community" or club responsible
for or empowered to
impose it's will or authority upon free individuals.

If anybody has ever gone to a night club, it's obvious how the whole thing
works. The crowd is composed or a variety of individuals some of which are
strangers to each other or not particularly
tied to any set of implicit or prescribed rules of behavior other than those
normally observed in the
world at large.

Oafs and boors exist everywhere. A tango dance is no different from a C&W
dance hall or a disco.
You would not expect that somehow a "community" would cohere out of a
diverse number of individuals to police or guide if you will, another
individual. There are just too many agendas and too many egos involved. I
think it's each persons responsibility to behave properly and suffer the
consequences of improper behavior. Now, if the individual women of a
"community" condone or fail to impart consequences to a man who behaves
poorly, it's hardly a surprise that his bad behavior continues. Same goes
for a woman's poor behavior.

Of course, if a guy disrespects my wife or friend, I would step in and at
least attempt to stop and inhibit further rudeness. However, i would not
presume to interfere in something that is not my business, and I don't think
anyone else should either.

Manuel


visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:15:54 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette: when things go bad... Part 1 of 2

I am sorry to say this and I do not mean to hurt most of the list members patriotic feelings, but this whole discussion about community =
action against people with non-standard behaviour sounds pretty much like late 20th century and today's US foreign policy... (ps: Hungary is =
NATO member, but I still not support immediate intervention whenever something happens in the "courtyard")

IMHO If someone is an oaf, then just talk about it openly with others. The word will spread and eventually he will sense something of it, or he =
might even be told by a friend.

Aron

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of WHITE 95 R
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 1:44 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango etiquette: when things go
> bad... Part 1 of 2
>
> >From: Darrell Sanchez <darsan@MINDSPRING.COM>
> >Reply-To: Darrell Sanchez <darsan@MINDSPRING.COM>
>
> >Greetings,
> > I am curious about list responses to the question
> of etiquette
> >when the problem is not limited to the merely oafish practices of
> >teaching at milongas, bad navigation, etc. What are other
> communities'
> >experiences when some guy is inappropriate or disrespectful
> toward the
> >women?
> >Darrell Sanchez
> >Boulder, CO
>
> Personally, I think that peoples behavior is their own
> individual resposability. All these boorish traits such as
> teaching at milongas, bad navigation and even innapropriate
> behavior are not in the province of the "community's"
> authority or control.
>
> If a man is disrespectful to a woman and she is afraid and
> brings a complaint to me or others, then I can act or others
> can act on behalf of the aggrieved party. However, if the
> woman can handle and does handle the oaf's faux pas or
> rudeness, that's fine too. Also, it's the women's part to
> discourage offensive behavor or plain avoid the creep.
> Bottom line is that there is no organized "community" or
> club responsible for or empowered to impose it's will or
> authority upon free individuals.
>
> If anybody has ever gone to a night club, it's obvious how
> the whole thing works. The crowd is composed or a variety of
> individuals some of which are strangers to each other or not
> particularly tied to any set of implicit or prescribed rules
> of behavior other than those normally observed in the world at large.
>
> Oafs and boors exist everywhere. A tango dance is no
> different from a C&W dance hall or a disco.
> You would not expect that somehow a "community" would cohere
> out of a diverse number of individuals to police or guide if
> you will, another individual. There are just too many
> agendas and too many egos involved. I think it's each
> persons responsibility to behave properly and suffer the
> consequences of improper behavior. Now, if the individual
> women of a "community" condone or fail to impart
> consequences to a man who behaves poorly, it's hardly a
> surprise that his bad behavior continues. Same goes for a
> woman's poor behavior.
>
> Of course, if a guy disrespects my wife or friend, I would
> step in and at least attempt to stop and inhibit further
> rudeness. However, i would not presume to interfere in
> something that is not my business, and I don't think anyone
> else should either.
>
> Manuel
>
>
> visit our webpage
> www.tango-rio.com
>

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:25:28 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette: when things go bad... Part 1 of 2

... I guess this is my month for posting. Must be all the dancing... ;^)

We don't need to be afraid of community action to deal with problems of
'when things go bad', but we do need to be very careful about how bad things
need to be before we decide 'something has to be done'.

Tango "Community action" can range from an organiser (supported by their
community) encouraging or requiring visiting teachers to teach floorcraft,
right through to a bunch of people bailing up a particularly nasty person
and making it clear they are not welcome, and onward to physical violence...

Communities, or bits of them, do things all the time to make their
'community space' more how they want it to be, often producing good and no
harm. There is no authority other than that of that group - but that is a
very powerful force. Witness the power of popularly supported bills of
rights.

On the other hand, community enforced behaviour control can be powerfully
negative, eg the effective gag on genuine political debate in many so-called
democracies; and the fossilising of dances that happens when they are made
into sets of rules.

I think many of us have felt exasperated with oafish, boorish or insensitive
behaviour, in tango and in the rest of the world. Most of the time, just
rubbing along is by far the best answer. After all most of us have also
exhibited oafish, boorish or insensitive behaviour ...

Sometimes open debate and education can change a bad situation to a good
one.

And sometimes, stronger measures are needed. Who decides? We all do -
individually and collectively.

Keep up the debate. It's fascinating to hear how different communities deal
with things, or choose not to.


--

Gary Barnes
Canberra, Australia

"more tango, more often"

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:54:27 -0400
From: tangomaniac@JUNO.COM
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette:

There have been a number of messages of how to deal with insensitive,
poor leaders. This is how I helped one woman. There's one particular man
who dances poorly -- and clearly doesn't care. He "leads" with his arms
and shoves the woman around the floor.

One beginner has asked me a number of times for suggestions on improving
her following. After one tanda Monday night, we returned to her table. I
could see the "black menace" (he wears black, but of course) approaching
her to ask for a dance. Knowing she doesn't want to dance with him, I
began a very animated conversation with her pointing out some things on
technique. He was standing so close behind me I could smell his breath.
Finally, after three minutes standing behind me (I just ignored him), he
went over and asked another woman to dance. Well, I can't save all the
women from him. The woman I was talking to was extremely grateful for
being spared the difficulty of saying "no."

Michael
Washington, DC

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:25:28 +1000 Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
writes:

>
> We don't need to be afraid of community action to deal with problems >

of> 'when things go bad', but we do need to be very careful about how >
bad things> need to be before we decide 'something has to be done'.

>
> I think many of us have felt exasperated with oafish, boorish or >

insensitive> behaviour, in tango and in the rest of the world. After all
most of us have > also> exhibited oafish, boorish or insensitive
behaviour ...>

>
> And sometimes, stronger measures are needed. Who decides? We all do >

-> individually and collectively.

>
> Gary Barnes
> Canberra, Australia
>

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:30:15 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette: when things go bad...

--- Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU> wrote:

> Communities, or bits of them, do things all the time
> to make their
> 'community space' more how they want it to be, often
> producing good and no
> harm. There is no authority other than that of that
> group - but that is a very powerful force.

Right - and many of the answers that have been given
already depend on community action - which is
different from communal action. You can have
community action without group think or ostracism or
violence. It is community action when the organizer
of an event responds to complaints and takes the lead
to ask a person to refrain from an offensive behavior.
It is community action when any number greater than
one of the women in a community feel it is OK to
decline to dance with someone who is a menace or a bad
dancer. It is community action when people talk about
others - either warning off potential partners from an
unpleasant situation or stating clearly for those in
the conversation what behavior is acceptable so they
can examine their own actions. And, as Gary says,
most of these actions are undertaken by "bits" of the
community. The whole mass of people tumble along
socially creating - and challenging - norms by their
interactions.

On a side topic: Some of our listeros belong to tango
"communities" and some belong to tango "scenes", as it
were. I think it goes along mostly with the size of
the group(s) in their town or city - what percentage
of the other dancers one recognizes, has ever danced
with, has ever taken a class with, would consider
dancing with, etc. And it may differ even for people
in the same locale. Just a little something to keep in
mind when reading others' responses, since the phrase
"community action" has a different flavor depending on
one's own social group.

Marisa

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:51:18 -0400
From: Hector Pablo Pereyra <hpereyra@NYC.RR.COM>
Subject: Tango etiquette:

The concept of ³milongas² as gatherings where people socialize and dance
tangos, if not originated there, evolved in the ³conventillos².

³Conventillos² is the slang word (lunfardo or lunfardismo) for this houses
in the city with several floors with small rooms that you could rent for a
few $ shearing the kitchen and the bathroom. All the poor people and the
immigrants ended up living at this ³conventillos². This immigrant brought
new political ideas, like a free university or free access to medicine for
all of us, and as a consequence of that had to deal with xenophobic
persecution from the ³high classes² (does it sound familiar?).

So we have all this people living a life as outcasts, rejected by society
and oppressed by poverty. As a way of coping with this and providing
themselves with some distraction they started to gather at the
³conventillo²¹s patio. The place for socializing, for communicating ideas.
Maybe a sailor or who knows brought a guitar and music started to be part of
this meetings. There, among people from different places and backgrounds,
among tough guys, pimps, Italians, Francs, Russians, thieves and prostitutes
³milongas² where developed.



I believe the very essence of tango is social, tango was open to everybody
back then and also in the 40¹s when there where ³milongas² with 500 people.
Or do you think that we everybody dancing back then was an ³advanced² (the
way you guys like calling yourself) there is no such a thing in tango.



The so called ³tango community² idea is just another way of dividing, of
simplifying, of underlining differences. If you guys are thinking of ³saving
a woman² from a ³bad² dancer or from somebody that ³smells bad² or ways to
prevent people who dresses in an ³improper way²from coming to your ³elegant
and hip² ³milonga² shows that the only thing that you guys have learned are
steps, you didn¹t understand the very essence of tango. You can blame the
teachers, this society that looks for immediate results in the surface
instead of going in deep into things or whatever you want to blame.



The root for xenophobia and racism can be traced in these petty behaviors.
People like Hitler didn¹t come out of the blue. I am sure there where back
them lots of people who didn¹t want to dance with ³jews²- or this very same
country and the racism hidden behind certain ³political correctness² ­ or my
own county calling the masses ³cabecitas negras² (I can explain you that in
another letter).



As always, the key for every door is education. The solution is not kicking
people out of your ³beautiful, skillful and advanced² dance floor. Maybe we
all should learn not only how to tango but also how to be more open, humble
and understanding.



Good morning


The pulpo

Ps: as always, forgive my written English

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:27:37 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette:

--- Hector Pablo Pereyra <hpereyra@NYC.RR.COM> wrote:

> As always, the key for every door is education. The
> solution is not kicking
> people out of your 3beautiful, skillful and
> advanced2 dance floor. Maybe we
> all should learn not only how to tango but also how
> to be more open, humble
> and understanding.

I was thinking the same thing. Thank you. I agree.

Rose
Portland, OR

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:53:40 -0400
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette:

actually, so do I.
Ilene

Razor Girl wrote:

>--- Hector Pablo Pereyra <hpereyra@NYC.RR.COM> wrote:
>
>
>>As always, the key for every door is education. The
>>solution is not kicking
>>people out of your 3beautiful, skillful and
>>advanced2 dance floor. Maybe we
>>all should learn not only how to tango but also how
>>to be more open, humble
>>and understanding.
>>
>>
>
>I was thinking the same thing. Thank you. I agree.
>
>Rose
>Portland, OR
>
>
>
>
>