2506  Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:30:28 -0700
From: Michael Ealem <ph03n1x@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms

We have an interesting problem we'd like to put to the list. We have been running a weekly practica and used to run a monthly milonga here in our town for well over a year. Most of our attendees comes from the ballroom or contra dance scenes, and have been dancing a year or less, with only a few exceptions. There seems to be a tremendous amount of resistance to basic milonga etiquette, specifically:

1. Not dancing against LOD (not just an occasional backstep, but extended sojourns)
2. Not camping out in the outer lane or middle of the floor for extended chit-chat
3. Not teaching at milongas (this is a biggie!)
4. Not parking out in the outermost lane, throwing every trick you know, taking two steps, throwing every trick, lather rinse repeat.
5. Not glomming on to every female newbie who walks through the door and teaching her ganchos, etc.
6. Not weaving in and out of lanes, or cutting across the middle of the floor.

This list is by no means exhaustive. We've tried everything, from putting out articles on tango etiquette to having guest teachers talk about floor navigation and etiquette, to no avail. We're accused of being "unfriendly" to newcomers, and being fascists for asking people not to teach at the milongas. We got so much flack that we finally quit sponsoring the milonga.

Has anyone had a similar experience, and what did you do?

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:15:04 +0100
From: Hector <hector.ariza@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms

Following a recent thread, I also would include:

7. No chewing gum while dancing --this is SO off-putting!

Hector

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:03:52 -0700
From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@OSBTOWN.COM>
Subject: (fwd) Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms

Hello Michael & all,
Remember that with this subject you are dealing with jerks who almost
always have an unrealistic sense of their own skill level, among other
things. Trying to ban the activity just gives them something to feel
righteous about. Here in Sacramento we include the subject in our lessons
by informing the ladies that a man who stops to teach them like this at a
social dance event is demonstrating that 1, he is an inadequate lead, hence
the need to talk his partner through what he is unable to lead, and 2, he
is a chump who disregards both the etiquette of tango as well as common
courtesy. When the ladies understand that it is perfectly OK to just say
no, and that sometimes saying no is a much less painful choice than
enduring a chump, then they will provide all the enforcement necessary to
curtail the problem. Once the guys get it that obstructing the dance floor
and humiliating their partner by presuming to teach her in public marks him
as an idiot whom no lady in her right mind would accept a dance from things
improve. Here we don't grind our teeth over the self anointed, we laugh at
them and make sure the ladies notice how bad it looks to be that chumps
partner. Once the ladies learn to say no the chumps either get a clue or
become spectators. Ladies, you have the power. Ciao...........
Ed

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:30:28 -0700, Michael Ealem <ph03n1x@EARTHLINK.NET>
wrote:

We've tried everything, from putting out articles on tango etiquette to
having guest teachers talk about floor navigation and etiquette, to no
avail. We're accused of being "unfriendly" to newcomers, and being fascists
for asking people not to teach at the milongas. We got so much flack that
we finally quit sponsoring the milonga.

Has anyone had a similar experience, and what did you do?

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:09:42 -0600
From: Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck <paulnkaren@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms

This post is from Karen:

We had similar responses here when a friend & I began organizing social (our
qualifier) tango classes three years ago. We also hosted a short-lived cafe
milonga (the venue closed), receiving some negative reactions to our
"rules."

This wasn't from dancers coming to tango from elsewhere. Milonga attendees
were mostly from the existing tango community. I credited our Wild West
mind-set (nobody tells me what to do when I'm havin' fun) to the resistance,
but now I think it's simply the American way -- to appropriate those aspects
of another culture which suit us & dismiss/disregard those which don't...

Three years later, following basic etiquette is more the rule than the
exception. So what happened?

1. Persistance - An informal "milonga" following each of our classes where
the rules are introduced. Ongoing education differentiating class, practica
& milonga: https://www.tangodowntown.net/sticky-issues.html

2. Example - Not breaking our own rules, however much someone begs for
"feedback" during a milonga. Other community leaders doing the same.
Etiquette & floorcraft taught from the beginning & consistently in classes.

3. Venues - Regular smaller local venues (cafes, restaurants) -- those which
demand floorcraft & etiquette. A large, roomy floor tends to encourage a
loss of social interaction (me-ism vs. us-ism).

4. Consistent visiting teachers - We bring Cacho Dante, Susana Miller &
Alicia Pons each year. Other organizers also tend to bring their "signature"
teachers. Virtually all of these regulars stress floorcraft.

5. Travel - More people from our communities traveling to the Denver &
Portland festivals, as well as to Buenos Aires -- places where etiquette is
required to get along.

6. Music - It's all about the music. Emphasizing music in every class.
Responsive DJs who've done their homework. Tandas! Compare one milonga w/
meandering dis-jointed music, & another w/ a selection of beautiful tandas &
that magic flow which a good DJ creates. In one there is a dissipation of
communal energy; in the other dancers move in the music as an organic whole.

7. Closer embraces - A gradual shift to Milonguero, Club, Social-Salon
styles predominating in the wider community.

8. Patience, tolerance & sense of humor - Things are better than ever; the
community is growing & maturing. Then out of nowhere when you least expect
it comes another tango hot-rodder. This too shall pass...

Karen Reck
Albuquerque, NM

> Michael Ealem <ph03n1x@EARTHLINK.NET>
> Subject: Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms
>
> We have an interesting problem we'd like to put to the list. We have been
> running a weekly practica and used to run a monthly milonga here in our town
> for well over a year. Most of our attendees comes from the ballroom or contra
> dance scenes, and have been dancing a year or less, with only a few
> exceptions. There seems to be a tremendous amount of resistance to basic
> milonga etiquette...

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:15:58 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms

Michael Ealem wrote:

>We've tried everything, from putting out articles on tango etiquette to
>having guest teachers talk about floor navigation and etiquette, to no
>avail.

Having a somewhatt different experience in Dallas and seeing most people
observe LOD etiquette in the cities that Susan and I have visited
(including Seattle which is relatively close to Michael's Bellinghma), I
was a bit surprised in reading Michael's comments.

A few observations:

1) What is being taught (including by the visiting teachers) matters a
lot. Navigation needs to be taught from the beginning by all instructors
in the community. More importantly, inexperienced dancers can have
trouble adhering to the line of dance if they have only learned step
patterns. Furthermore, the more experienced dancers won't pay attention
to the line of dance if they mostly know step patterns that include
substantial elements that move against the line of dance.

2) A practica is an essential part of community development In the
absence of practicas, milongas become practicas because no one has had any
other opportunity to master through dance experience what they are
learning in their classes.

3) The music that is being played at the milonga also matters a lot.
Theatrical music can encourage theatrical dancing. Music with a weak
rhythmic content works against the development of a communal sense of the
dance.

4) The congestion on the dance floor affects the dancing. In a very
uncrowded milonga, people can engage in theatrics without causing
problems. In a very crowded milonga, most people have the sense not to
engage in theatrics. It's the inbetween milongas where there can be a
problem. There is just enough room to encourage someone to engage in
theatrics or try a new complicated step pattern, but not enough to execute
it safely.

For milongas and practicas with inbetween crowding, partitioning the space
into a dance space and an anything goes space can work wonders for the
etiquette.

5) Holding a class right before a milonga can invite etiquette problems.
People who attend the class and milonga may treat the first hour or the
milonga as a practice. Teaching a complicated step pattern heightens the
effect.

6) Teaching at milongas is usually indicative of a variety of
problems--most usually that the leader doesn't know what he is doing.
Followers should be taught from the beginning not to accept instruction
from their partner at a milonga.

7) Not all the wild animals want to be tamed, but most people are happy to
participate in creating a successful group experience.

Many happy milongas,
Steve

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:23:22 +0000
From: Rick Jones <rwjones2001@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms

Stephen wrote:

>>>>

2) A practica is an essential part of community development In the absence
of practicas, milongas become practicas because no one has had any other
opportunity to master through dance experience what they are learning in
their classes.

>>>>

That's a really excellent point, and unfortunately, dedicated practicas per
se are rare (if not non-existent). It would be great to have places that
dedicate, say, a two- or three-hour block of time on Sunday afternoons or
something just for practicas.

Rick Jones
Washington DC

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:55:00 -0700
From: Tango Luna <tangoluna@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms

Yes, Ed! Milongas often have an abundance of women who are so anxious to
dance that they will say YES to anyone who asks. We do have the power to
improve the overall community by saying NO to leaders who "teach" on the
floor, have no respect for the line of dance, and push you around practicing
the latest programmed pattern. I rather sit out, thank you, than to endure
an awful (and sometimes bumpy ride) across the floor. Pia

>From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@OSBTOWN.COM>
>Reply-To: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@OSBTOWN.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] (fwd) Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms
>Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:03:52 -0700
>
>Hello Michael & all,
> Remember that with this subject you are dealing with jerks who almost
>always have an unrealistic sense of their own skill level, among other
>things. Trying to ban the activity just gives them something to feel
>righteous about. Here in Sacramento we include the subject in our lessons
>by informing the ladies that a man who stops to teach them like this at a
>social dance event is demonstrating that 1, he is an inadequate lead, hence
>the need to talk his partner through what he is unable to lead, and 2, he
>is a chump who disregards both the etiquette of tango as well as common
>courtesy. When the ladies understand that it is perfectly OK to just say
>no, and that sometimes saying no is a much less painful choice than
>enduring a chump, then they will provide all the enforcement necessary to
>curtail the problem. Once the guys get it that obstructing the dance floor
>and humiliating their partner by presuming to teach her in public marks him
>as an idiot whom no lady in her right mind would accept a dance from things
>improve. Here we don't grind our teeth over the self anointed, we laugh at
>them and make sure the ladies notice how bad it looks to be that chumps
>partner. Once the ladies learn to say no the chumps either get a clue or
>become spectators. Ladies, you have the power. Ciao...........
>Ed
>
>On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:30:28 -0700, Michael Ealem <ph03n1x@EARTHLINK.NET>
>wrote:
>
>We've tried everything, from putting out articles on tango etiquette to
>having guest teachers talk about floor navigation and etiquette, to no
>avail. We're accused of being "unfriendly" to newcomers, and being fascists
>for asking people not to teach at the milongas. We got so much flack that
>we finally quit sponsoring the milonga.
>
>Has anyone had a similar experience, and what did you do?
>

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:12:02 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms

Pia wrote about abundance of anxious women at milongas:

"Yes, Ed! Milongas often have an abundance of women who are so anxious to
dance that they will say YES to anyone who asks. We do have the power to
improve the overall community by saying NO to leaders who "teach" on the
floor..."

As one of my lady friends pointed out: "If leader teaches me at milonga he
makes me look bad, as if I do not know what I am doing, hence my chances to
dance with good leaders decrease". Obviously she thinks long term. Good
habbit in general.

Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com

>From: Tango Luna <tangoluna@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Reply-To: Tango Luna <tangoluna@HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] (fwd) Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance
>forms
>Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:55:00 -0700
>
>Yes, Ed! Milongas often have an abundance of women who are so anxious to
>dance that they will say YES to anyone who asks. We do have the power to
>improve the overall community by saying NO to leaders who "teach" on the
>floor, have no respect for the line of dance, and push you around
>practicing
>the latest programmed pattern. I rather sit out, thank you, than to endure
>an awful (and sometimes bumpy ride) across the floor. Pia
>
>
>>From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@OSBTOWN.COM>
>>Reply-To: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@OSBTOWN.COM>
>>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>>Subject: [TANGO-L] (fwd) Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance
>>forms
>>Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:03:52 -0700
>>
>>Hello Michael & all,
>> Remember that with this subject you are dealing with jerks who
>>almost
>>always have an unrealistic sense of their own skill level, among other
>>things. Trying to ban the activity just gives them something to feel
>>righteous about. Here in Sacramento we include the subject in our lessons
>>by informing the ladies that a man who stops to teach them like this at a
>>social dance event is demonstrating that 1, he is an inadequate lead,
>>hence
>>the need to talk his partner through what he is unable to lead, and 2, he
>>is a chump who disregards both the etiquette of tango as well as common
>>courtesy. When the ladies understand that it is perfectly OK to just say
>>no, and that sometimes saying no is a much less painful choice than
>>enduring a chump, then they will provide all the enforcement necessary to
>>curtail the problem. Once the guys get it that obstructing the dance floor
>>and humiliating their partner by presuming to teach her in public marks
>>him
>>as an idiot whom no lady in her right mind would accept a dance from
>>things
>>improve. Here we don't grind our teeth over the self anointed, we laugh
>>at
>>them and make sure the ladies notice how bad it looks to be that chumps
>>partner. Once the ladies learn to say no the chumps either get a clue or
>>become spectators. Ladies, you have the power. Ciao...........
>>Ed
>>
>>On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:30:28 -0700, Michael Ealem <ph03n1x@EARTHLINK.NET>
>>wrote:
>>
>>We've tried everything, from putting out articles on tango etiquette to
>>having guest teachers talk about floor navigation and etiquette, to no
>>avail. We're accused of being "unfriendly" to newcomers, and being
>>fascists
>>for asking people not to teach at the milongas. We got so much flack that
>>we finally quit sponsoring the milonga.
>>
>>Has anyone had a similar experience, and what did you do?
>>
>

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:04:29 -0700
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Tango etiquette and newbies from other dance forms

> Ed wrote:
>
> "Remember that with this subject you are dealing
> with jerks who almost
> always have an unrealistic sense of their own skill
> level, among other
> things..... Once the ladies learn to say no the
> chumps
>
> either get a clue or
> become spectators. Ladies, you have the power."
>
> Amen. Ed, remind me to give you an extra hug the
> next
> time I see you. You're a prince, what can I say.
> Just
> keep reassuring those ladies that it's perfectly ok
> to
> say No in tango. Those jerks tend to intimidate us.
>
> Luda
>
>
> =====
>
>

=====

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:41:25 -0700
From: Tango Luna <tangoluna@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango etiquette and newbies

My insistent NO is NOT directed to the vast majority of men at milongas who
are polite, considerate, and no matter their skill level are trying to
improve, and are pleasant to dance with. But it is to the very few who are
so awful to dance with that women, like Seattle's, complain about him either
in whispers, shouts or silent suffering, but still do not get turned down by
some women. And, the NO is definately not directed to someone who is a
beginner. We have all seen how today's "awful" beginner over time can turn
into tomorrow's wonderful, dreamy dancer. I would on any given day, dance
with that beginner who has had only a few lessons than that jerk on the
floor that Ed describes who may have been dancing for years. Tango is, to
me anyway, a social experience; a way to connect with people in dance form.
A pleasant experience.

As to the guy who finds a rejection devasting, Tango is like life, rejection
is part of life. We all experience it, whether on the dance floor, or in
our everyday life. Sometimes it may be totally unjustified, but, as in
life, it's how you deal with it so you do not come out bitter, and worse, I
think, to go on a mission to punish. Pia

>From: Michael Ealem <ph03n1x@EARTHLINK.NET>
>Reply-To: Michael Ealem <ph03n1x@earthlink.net>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango etiquette and newbies & Freedom of Expression
>Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:57:44 -0700
>
>Thank you so much to all those who responded privately - many helpful and
>cogent suggestions were offered. Some interesting points raised here today:
>
> >Yes, Ed! Milongas often have an abundance of women who are so anxious to
> >dance that they will say YES to anyone who asks. We do have the power to
> >improve the overall community by saying NO to leaders who "teach" on the
> >floor, have no respect for the line of dance, and push you around
>practicing
> >the latest programmed pattern. I rather sit out, thank you, than to
>endure
> >an awful (and sometimes bumpy ride) across the floor. Pia
>
>I have seen an interesting phenomenon take place in various Seattle
>milongas. Women will repeatedly accept an invitation from someone, and upon
>their return will complain bitterly about the individual's dancing, lack of
>floorcraft or manners,personal hygiene, etc. When I ask them why they
>continue to dance with the aforementioned offenders, I get one of two
>answers:
>
>1. It's impolite to decline when someone asks you to dance (not as often)
>2. I won't get to dance if I start rejecting people (far more frequently)
>
>So the men who careen around the floor (bumper-car tango) or conduct
>impromptu seminars in the middle of the floor go merrily about their
>way....
>