3226 Tango evolution
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:23:11 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango evolution
Jay asks a very interesting question:
(Some things ae easily felt but are difficult to explain) He says:
"I do have one question for you however, regarding those few
Argentines, that is,
not American nor European, who are on the forefront of changing/evolving
tango. Gustavo, Chicho, and Norberto Esbres specifically. Where do you see
them fitting in the historical flow that you have described? "
When you go to a milonga and observe dancers execute their filigree on the
floor you realize that everybody has his own style. A characteristic form of
dancing, that is very personal, something that exhibits his conception of
life, a reflection of his soul and his culture.
Just a few steps, some turns, some ochos a few pauses that are mixed in a
variety of ways, the same as the elements that compose a human face, just a
front, a chin, two cheeks, a nose, a mouth, two eyes, and you have 6 billion
different visages. The same set of two vocal chords and a larynx are able to
produce an equally array of billions of human voices.
Some tango dancers developed their own style (such as "el pulpo") and became
very successful as instructors of their unique personal style. Others
developed a very analytical way of teaching and in this process and
attempting to extinguish all the possibilities of movement, incorporated
some variations that were not popular or some different way of leading the
same old steps.
Some social dancers used to crowded salons became very successful as
teachers of their personal style.
Some of them created schools of followers that in turn teach others that
particular style.
The Argentineans that you mention belong in those groups. They preserve the
basic characteristics of the dance even when the style is different, the
same as do all the other dancers.
The choreography, the roles, the music, the feeling are somewhat changed but
are there. Their dance still looks and feels like Argentine Tango.
They are all excellent classical tango dancers.
When you pay no attention to the essential components, use non-tango music,
do not follow the milonga codes, all this even before you understood what
tango is about, it starts looking like a foreign concoction. Something
different that could be more beautiful or interesting than the original, but
never the less a deviation from the culture that had originated it.
Most people still dance Classical Salon Style in close, open or alternating
embrace. Some in a simple form, some in a very complex way and everybody
else in between. Many dance milonguero, apilado and some Nuevo Tango.
There are many well known Argentine rock and roll bands, Jazz players . Most
Argentines dance swing like it was done in the USA long , long, ago , they
all have fun doing it but I think that at the same time they all strive to
remain faithful to the original culture and naturally they only succeed in
different degrees.
I know many foreign milongueros that come to Buenos Aires and Mar del Plata
and are greatly admired by the authenticity of their tango and dancing
skills.
Summary:
Everybody should be able to experiment, create, select, and pass their
discoveries to the next generation; it does not matter their national origin
or popular culture.
I find interesting that some nationalities seem to get the "light" right a
way and others seem to have such a difficult time. Please do not ask me to
be specific :))).
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:27:52 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution
Sergio, thank you again for another well-reasoned and beautifully poetic
response.
You said:
"The Argentineans that you mention [Gustavo, Chicho, and el Pulpo] ...
preserve the basic characteristics of the dance even when the style is
different ..."
You also said:
"When you pay no attention to the essential components, USE NON-TANGO MUSIC
[my emphasis - J] ..., it starts looking like a foreign concoction."
So now I will risk entering the fire.
Regarding el Pulpo: you seemed to find him to be acceptable as dancing
"true" Argentine Tango. Yet he often dances to alternative music, and
alternative music that is perhaps the least acceptable kind (that is,
"least" acceptable to tango music traditionalists, perhaps excepting rap and
hiphop).
The music I've heard him dance to is, specifically, American Rock in the
artist of David Lee Roth. Now one can argue that both Norberto and DLR share
something in common, something that is deeply evident in their respective
styles, and that is a love of women (though I'll acknowledge that DLR has
been criticized for showing a lack of respect for them). But the love and
appreciation for women and their sensuality and the expressive opportunities
for dancing and interacting with their bodies and energies is IMO clear in
both men.
OK, so far.
But before I continue, a PLEA to other list members who may choose to enter
the discussion. I know this subject has been argued passionately many times
on this list. Past posts on the subject typically just state judgements,
albeit with passionate strength of conviction, expecting other tangueros to
accept the stated positions just because the writer is a true milonguero, or
a native Argentine, or has decades of experience dancing in BsAs milongas.
My point is that it is not helpful to merely state an opinion/judgement, eg,
that dancing tango steps to alternative music SHOULD NOT be called Argentine
Tango. Give me the respect to allow me to make up my own mind, based on the
facts. It is not helpful to expect me to believe someone else's opinion just
because they claim authority or credentials.
What *IS* helpful, is an explanation of *WHY* alternative music is not
appropriate for Argentine Tango. What is it about traditional tango music
that makes it so good for this dance we love? What is it about alternative
music that makes it so unacceptable? What qualities or structure of the
music makes the difference? It can't be as simple as tempo or time
signature. It can't even be the more complex idea of emotional content. Yes,
tango music is famous for expressing lonliness, loss, and sadness, but so
does a lot of American Blues, of which Rock is a derivative.
So what is it, specifically? What character of alternative music does it
have or not have that makes it unacceptable for "true" Argentine Tango?
Just wanting to understand, and hoping I don't have to dodge too many
flames...
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:44:04 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution
Dear Segio and Jay, For me tango music and dance must
have the key element of surprise. When it becomes
predictable, it becomes dull and boring, whether in
Argentina, Europe or the US. The new styles are OK as
long as they progress. Most of them do not and not
better than the original. They limit the musicians and
the dancers. My opinion. Thanks. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:
> Sergio, thank you again for another well-reasoned
and beautifully poetic
> response.
>
> You said:
> "The Argentineans that you mention [Gustavo, Chicho,
and el Pulpo] ...
> preserve the basic characteristics of the dance even
when the style is
> different ..."
>
> You also said:
> "When you pay no attention to the essential
components, USE NON-TANGO MUSIC
> [my emphasis - J] ..., it starts looking like a
foreign concoction."
>
> So now I will risk entering the fire.
> Regarding el Pulpo: you seemed to find him to be
acceptable as dancing
> "true" Argentine Tango. Yet he often dances to
alternative music, and
> alternative music that is perhaps the least
acceptable kind (that is,
> "least" acceptable to tango music traditionalists,
perhaps excepting rap and
> hiphop).
>
> The music I've heard him dance to is, specifically,
American Rock in the
> artist of David Lee Roth. Now one can argue that
both Norberto and DLR share
> something in common, something that is deeply
evident in their respective
> styles, and that is a love of women (though I'll
acknowledge that DLR has
> been criticized for showing a lack of respect for
them). But the love and
> appreciation for women and their sensuality and the
expressive opportunities
> for dancing and interacting with their bodies and
energies is IMO clear in
> both men.
>
> OK, so far.
>
> But before I continue, a PLEA to other list members
who may choose to enter
> the discussion. I know this subject has been argued
passionately many times
> on this list. Past posts on the subject typically
just state judgements,
> albeit with passionate strength of conviction,
expecting other tangueros to
> accept the stated positions just because the writer
is a true milonguero, or
> a native Argentine, or has decades of experience
dancing in BsAs milongas.
>
> My point is that it is not helpful to merely state
an opinion/judgement, eg,
> that dancing tango steps to alternative music SHOULD
NOT be called Argentine
> Tango. Give me the respect to allow me to make up my
own mind, based on the
> facts. It is not helpful to expect me to believe
someone else's opinion just
> because they claim authority or credentials.
>
> What *IS* helpful, is an explanation of *WHY*
alternative music is not
> appropriate for Argentine Tango. What is it about
traditional tango music
> that makes it so good for this dance we love? What
is it about alternative
> music that makes it so unacceptable? What qualities
or structure of the
> music makes the difference? It can't be as simple as
tempo or time
> signature. It can't even be the more complex idea of
emotional content. Yes,
> tango music is famous for expressing lonliness,
loss, and sadness, but so
> does a lot of American Blues, of which Rock is a
derivative.
>
> So what is it, specifically? What character of
alternative music does it
> have or not have that makes it unacceptable for
"true" Argentine Tango?
>
> Just wanting to understand, and hoping I don't
have to dodge too many
> flames...
> J in Portland
> www.TangoMoments.com
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:54:00 +0200
From: cella <cella@TTNET.NET.TR>
Subject: Fw: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution
> THE BUDDHA'S PARABLE OF THE BURNING HOUSE
> Bertolt Brecht
>
> Gautama the Buddha taught
> The doctrine of greed's wheel to which we are bound, and advised
> That we should shed all craving and thus
> Undesiring enter the nothingness that he called Nirvana.
>
> Then one day his pupils asked him:
> What is it like, this nothingness, Master? Every one of us would
> Shed all craving, as you advise, but tell us
> Whether this nothingness which then we shall enter
> Is perhaps like being at one with all creation
> When you lie in water, your body weightless, at noon
> Unthinking almost, lazily lie in the water, or drowse
> Hardly knowing now that you straighten the blanket
> Going down fast -- whether this nothingness, then
> Is a happy one of this kind, a pleasant nothingness, or
> Whether this nothing of yours is mere nothing, cold, senseless and void.
>
> Long the Buddha was silent, then said nonchalantly:
> There is no answer to your question.
> But in the evening, when they had gone
> The Buddha still sat under the bread-fruit tree, and to the others
> To those who had not asked, addressed this parable:
>
> Lately I saw a house. It was burning. The flame
> Licked at its roof. I went up close and observed
> That there were people still inside. I opened the door and called
> Out to them that the roof was ablaze, so exhorting them
> To leave at once. But those people
> Seemed in no hurry. One of them
> When the heat was already scorching his eyebrows
> Asked me what it was like outside, whether it wasn't raining
>
> Whether the wind wasn't blowing perhaps, whether there was
> Another house for them, and more of this kind. Without answering
> I went out again. These people here, I thought
> Need to burn to death before they stop asking questions.
> Truly friends,
> Unless a man feels the ground so hot underfoot that he'd
> Exchange it for any other, sooner than stay, to him
> I have nothing to say. Thus Gautama the Buddha
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
> To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution
>
>
>> Sergio, thank you again for another well-reasoned and beautifully poetic
>> response.
>>
>> You said:
>> "The Argentineans that you mention [Gustavo, Chicho, and el Pulpo] ...
>> >
>> You also said:
>> "."
>>
>> So now I will risk entering the fire.
>> Regarding el Pulpo: you seemed to find him to be acceptable as dancing
>> "true" > The music I've heard him dance to is, specifically, American
>> Rock in the
>> artist ofexpressive opportunities
>> for dancing and interacting with their bodies and energies is IMO clear
>> in
>> both men.
>>
>> OK, so far.
>>
>> But before I continue, a in BsAs milongas.
>>
>> My point is that it is not helpful to merely state an opinion/judgement,
>> eg,
>> that dancing tango steps to > What *IS* helpful, is an explanation of
>> *WHY* alternative music is not
>> appropriate for Argentine Tango. What is it about traditional tango music
>> that makes it so good for this dance we love? What is it about
>> alternative
>> music that makes it so unacceptable? What qualities or structure of the
>> music makes the difference? It can't be as simple as tempo or time
>> signature. It can't even be the more complex idea of emotional content.
>> Yes,
>> tango music is famous for expressing lonliness, loss, and sadness, but so
>> does a lot of American Blues, of which Rock is a derivative.
>>
>> So what is it, specifically? What character of alternative music does it
>> have or not have that makes it unacceptable for "true" Argentine Tango?
>>
>> Just wanting to understand, and hoping I don't have to dodge too many
>> flames...
>> J in Portland
>> www.TangoMoments.com
>>
>>
>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:04:31 -0800
From: Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: Tango evolution
Jay Rabe wrote:
>What *IS* helpful, is an explanation of *WHY* alternative music is not
>appropriate for Argentine Tango.
Well , on one level, the answer is simple. I think 'Argentine Tango' is made
of the dance AND the music, with the dance stemming from the music and the
music being an expression of the Argentine culture and way of life. In other
words, I agree with philosophers who argue that the dance is the shell of the
music and the culture that produced it - it seems very logical and common
sense. (If you do not agree with this paragraph, the rest is irrelevant to
you)
So, if you want to take the shell only, and insert something else, some other
music that tango dance did not follow from, some other music that is an
expression of a different culture and way of life, you would create a
confusion if you still call it argentine tango as it clearly isn't as per
the above framework. It is something else. Sure, you can physically do it, you
can dance tango steps if the rhythm sort of fits within the BPM and the
pattern. You can also dance salsa steps to rock music or to polka music of the
appropriate BPM. For a lot of people, me included, the results are not
interesting and do not feel right. I like rock and blues and loads of other
music. So what? I came to argentine tango for the music, the culture, the
dance, as a package.
>What is it about traditional tango music
>that makes it so good for this dance we love? What is it about alternative
>music that makes it so unacceptable? What qualities or structure of the
>music makes the difference? It can't be as simple as tempo or time
>signature. It can't even be the more complex idea of emotional content. Yes,
>tango music is famous for expressing lonliness, loss, and sadness, but so
>does a lot of American Blues, of which Rock is a derivative.
Maybe but in a different way. It is about the way it is
expressed. Additionally, it is about the whole culture that the music derived
from, embodied.
>So what is it, specifically? What character of alternative music does it
>have or not have that makes it unacceptable for "true" Argentine Tango?
To me, it does not fit - emotionally, visually even. This is not surprising
since it is philosophically incongruent, as the dance is a derivative art form
that comes from the music (which itself embodies the culture and values in
life of whomever produced it). When you mechanically separate this into
pieces, and try to fit some other music to the dance, it doesn't quite fit. It
is like certain collages that can be amusing for a moment or two with their
distortions and ill-fitting pieces.
I find the original self-consistent creations inspiring and infinitely rich,
and the collages uninteresting. Others clearly feel
differently, which is fine. Obviously 'dancing argentine-tango-based steps to
non-argentine tango music' is a bit much as a title for the 'collages', but
hopefully with time something shorter can be found that is not confusing and
has not been already taken as a concept or a name.
Perhaps it is not a coincidence that most people who like the 'collage' are
also ones who are not directly connected to argentine culture or have no
specific interest in it per se. This seems common sense statistically
since most if not all 'alternative tango' activities occur outside Argentina.
Best regards,
Konstantin
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:43:02 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution
Jay Rabe wrote:
"Regarding el Pulpo: you seemed to find him to be acceptable as dancing
"true" Argentine Tango. Yet he often dances to alternative music"
- Pulpo "performs & privately dances" to alternative music, and he sees his
dance as an art, but the times that I've seen him dance at the milongas, he
dances social/close embrace.
"I know this subject has been argued passionately many times on this list."
- No kidding
"What is it about traditional tango music that makes it so good for this
dance we love?
- Danceable beat and feeling, the dance beat matches tango steps (same for
all other popular dances). In addition there is tradicional music that is
not danceable, i.e. Gardel.
"What is it about alternative music that makes it so unacceptable?"
- I suggest using "undanceable" rather than "unacceptable".
It does not have a danceable beat or any feeling, sure you can make dance
tango steps to anything, but the same if true of salsa, swing, cha-cha, etc.
(steps). If you go to any salsa club, you will never find a DJ playing
rock.
"What qualities or structure of the music makes the difference? It can't be
as simple as tempo or time signature. It can't even be the more complex idea
of emotional content. Yes, tango music is famous for expressing lonliness,
loss, and sadness, but so does a lot of American Blues, of which Rock is a
derivative."
- Good question; aside from the danceable beat, we get in the "feel &
cultural" world. A big part is the "authenticity" feel of the music, as you
know and have hear, there are tango bands that are "technically" correct,
but they lack the "feel" that makes one want to dance.
Why is Taco Bell food not Mexican food?, they use the same ingredients.
Also, please keep in mind that is not that the music has to be from the
"golden" era, but it does have to be "danceable", the problem is that most
and best "danceable" music is still from the "golden" era.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:25:45 -0800
From: Randy Fisher <randyafisher@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution
No one specific, just some thoughts, had to vent. Because I love tango and
the divisions suck, we don't have to put anyone down within or outside of it
to make it better it is great by itself. Cool doesn't have to say it is cool
it just is.
I love traditional tango music I dance to it often. Even when given a
choice, I choose it over Alternative. I see tango as a language just as
salsa swing or whatever your weapon of choice is. None better or worse just
different. Tango has changed my salsa, swing, and vise versa I am sure. The
lack of a basic, complete connection to the music, and total improvisation
comes from tango. When this is added to salsa it must be modified to connect
to your partner and adhering to timing is how it is done. There can be
pauses and complete improvisation but you are using tango leads that are not
unique to tango but simple body mechanics.
Early American Blues dancing looks exactly like Canyengue, chronologically
it was done around the same time but they were dancing to different music.
The body position and leads are the same and the north Afro americans
weren't travelling to south america to copy the Argentinians. They were
dancing to the music with a language they had available. There were dances
that came before tango, tango didn't have to reinvent the wheel some
movements they already existed so tango adopted them. It is a give and take.
Wasn't tango created by many cultures converging in Argentina? The dance
will continue to grow if we keep our minds open to see it so we can
contribute. It is fine to state what you like because it can teach others of
what you find important about this beautiful dance without putting others
down. This dance has a history of oneupmanship which helped it grow. Also
personal touches, your own style made it grow too.
Whether you believe it or not people outside of Argentina listen to what the
Argentineans say about other cultures and how they dance tango. Many of
those people take this criticism to heart and fix it. Oh, they are not
passionate; Oh, they don't know what tango is really about; Oh, that's not
tango Astor; and list goes on.
So they fix they missing elements, for years they work only on walking, for
years they practice their embrace, they learn the history sometimes better
because they have their hearts open. They listen to tango 25 hours a day.
They know Valentino wasn't doing authentic Argentine tango. Still they will
never be good enough, come on.
They are many people outside of Argentina who understand the importance of
staying connected to the roots of what ever it may be, Tango, salsa,
photography, cooking or living. You will find these people when you are more
open, then you can let down your tango guard, relax and see that
traditional tango ain't goin' no where.
There are songs that feel like tango could express it. But be careful If you
drop your guard you might enjoy watching it. Sure you say it is not tango
but imitation is the highess from of flattery. Being supportive of flattery
will help us all grow. Dancing to alternative music allows you get creative
with your body interpretation because of the inherent movements that music
came with. Watch it, the other musics have roots too. When tango was
created it took from other dances too. So when you come back to traditional
you can add that movement into your tango vocabulary with a traditional
tango flair.
I just noticed Chicho's dancing and if you keep your mind open you will see
his movements are very much canyengue cadence and style. Many traditionalist
object because the nuevo elements but he is reaching back to the roots how
can you be more respectful.
Tango as a language can be used with other music and of course it might not
be called tango but paying homage to its roots by Saltango, Swango, Blango
or whatever. Of course, the movements should match the music that is what
dancing is about. Tango It is a beautiful expressive language and to limit
it to just tango traditional seems unfortunate. Don't worry tango to tango
music is always going to be around especially if we don't strangle it.
Randy "Tango Negro" from San Francisco
>From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: railogic@yahoo.com
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Body position-Evolution of Tango
>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:35:28 -0800
>
>...
>Gustavo, Norberto danced for a while, even though they "changed" Argentine
>tango, you still see those qualities. Like new models of Porsche arrive,
>you can tell its a Porche, no matter what they do it seems.
>
>Sorry for strong words, but Chicho, his dancing is a Monster of ugliness.
>
>He didnt tango for too long and it shows...
>like Sergio said
> >>>
>I thinkas wel,l that most of those that participate in this "evolutive
>process" never grabbed the real essence of what Argentine Tango is
>about.
>
> >>
>
>
>Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>Sergio, thank you so very much for your clear and excellent summary. I do
>have one question for you however, regarding those few Argentines, that is,
>not American nor European, who are on the forefront of changing/evolving
>tango. Gustavo, Chicho, and Norberto Esbres specifically. Where do you see
>them fitting in the historical flow that you have described?
>
>J in Portland
>www.TangoMoments.com
>
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Sergio Vandekier
>Norbert asks:
>
>"Today I have seen people dance with their knees slightly bent,
>hips forward
>and upper body almost a bit laid back - very fast moving (potentially) and
>energetic, but less close and less "long legs". Do you know this style?"
>
>This is the typical embrace used by American tango and International tango
>dancers.
>
>The first time Argentine Tango arrived in Europe and North America (at the
>beginning of the 20th. century) it suffered severe mutilation and
>adaptation
>to the local culture.
>
>Those that accepted and cultivated those changes transformed the original
>Argentine Tango into what is known today as American and European
>(International) styles.
>
>Those styles are beautiful per se but are quite different from the original
>tango in many ways.
>
>
>Those of us that also do ballroom dancing know that these dances are done
>primarily for fun. Here you step on every beat on certain set way, that
>those steps are a mixture of quicks and slows, that the different dances
>have a set of patterns that are divided in three levels: bronze, silver and
>gold.
>
>The man leads and the woman follows, the patterns are very well known to
>both partners, there is little surprise, as soon as the man starts leading
>a
>figure she follows, both do a symmetrical dance the mirror of each other
>except during certain turns. Those that know about ten figures are
>considered to be proficient. Since they use those patterns in one or two
>songs they have to mix different dances to add some variety, etc.
>
>Argentine tango is asymmetrical, the man does different foot work from the
>one the woman executes.
>It is improvised, it is done primarily for feeling. The woman does not know
>what the man has in mind. She remains extremely attentive. The leader steps
>as he wishes, faster, slower, simple or double timing, pauses, etc. Tango
>is
>different each time, it is different with every partner therefore one can
>dance only tango all night long.
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:08:39 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution
I have just read this passage
"All forms of perfection have their cheap imitations and belly dancing is no
exception.
Misconduct by imposters in belly dancing costumes,
as well as inappropriate portrayal of the art by the media,
have diluted our legitimacy.
But as long as there are still true belly dancers out there,
the art of the belly dance is redeemable.
The dancer herself must re-educate the viewing public and participants
and show them what belly dancing really is - and what it is not."
- Belly Dancing Basics by Laura A. Cooper.
( No, no I am not studying belly dancing.. :))) Yet )
Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:48:53 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - belly dancing
I had an interesting chat with a fellow tanguero the other night, talking
about women, as is often the case. We were both in agreement about the
delicious and capable following skills of several specific women in the
Portland tango community, and his comment was that each of these women were
also belly dancers. It seems that the skills learned in belly dancing
directly translate into effective and delightful following. Specifically,
the ability to isolate different body parts and move them independently
taught the women how to differentiate the upper torso from the hips, which
is a key skill in tango dancing as we all know.
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Reply-To: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:10:54 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - belly dancing
Intersting deduction, as you may know, Spain was conquered by Arabs and was
"occupied" by them for 800 years, thus flamenco dancing has it's roots in
belly dancing, and most of Latin American folklore dances have their roots
in flamenco.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:49 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution - belly dancing
I had an interesting chat with a fellow tanguero the other night, talking
about women, as is often the case. We were both in agreement about the
delicious and capable following skills of several specific women in the
Portland tango community, and his comment was that each of these women were
also belly dancers. It seems that the skills learned in belly dancing
directly translate into effective and delightful following. Specifically,
the ability to isolate different body parts and move them independently
taught the women how to differentiate the upper torso from the hips, which
is a key skill in tango dancing as we all know.
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
Reply-To: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:23:16 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - belly dancing
Dear Carlos, Si Senor. So Turkish tango is closer to
the roots. Also anyone know the roots of the words
tango and bandodeon? Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
wrote:
> Intersting deduction, as you may know, Spain was
conquered by Arabs and
> was
> "occupied" by them for 800 years, thus flamenco
dancing has it's roots
> in
> belly dancing, and most of Latin American folklore
dances have their
> roots
> in flamenco.
>
> Carlos Rojas
> Portland, OR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine
Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Jay
Rabe
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:49 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution - belly
dancing
>
> I had an interesting chat with a fellow tanguero the
other night,
> talking
> about women, as is often the case. We were both in
agreement about the
> delicious and capable following skills of several
specific women in the
> Portland tango community, and his comment was that
each of these women
> were
> also belly dancers. It seems that the skills learned
in belly dancing
> directly translate into effective and delightful
following.
> Specifically,
> the ability to isolate different body parts and move
them independently
> taught the women how to differentiate the upper
torso from the hips,
> which
> is a key skill in tango dancing as we all know.
>
> J in Portland
> www.TangoMoments.com
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
> Reply-To: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:08:39 -0800
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>
> I have just read this passage
>
> "All forms of perfection have their cheap imitations
and belly dancing
> is no
> exception.
> Misconduct by imposters in belly dancing costumes,
> as well as inappropriate portrayal of the art by the
media,
> have diluted our legitimacy.
> But as long as there are still true belly dancers
out there,
> the art of the belly dance is redeemable.
> The dancer herself must re-educate the viewing
public and participants
> and show them what belly dancing really is - and
what it is not."
>
> - Belly Dancing Basics by Laura A. Cooper.
> ( No, no I am not studying belly dancing.. :))) Yet
)
>
> Igor Polk
>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:22:54 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - belly dancing
Hello Derik,
Bandoneon (originally spellt as Bandonion) is from the name of it's
developer Heinrich Band. He used his own name to brand the special type of
konzertina he was making.
In case of tango there are several contradictory theories. Especially so
that this word (and it's probable kins-ancestors) appears in many cultures
with several different meanings. It is very likely though that it has
African roots and it's meaning had to do something with social gathering,
music and dancing (either or all - such events usually feature all this in
these cultures). Nevertheless, the way tango got it's name _probably_ has
very little to do with it's musical or terpsichorial ancestry.
However, I suggest you look around on the net, you'll find enough resources
on this. (I recommend www.history-of-tango.com Christine Denniston - the
material she collected appears to be in accord with what I've learnt form
many other sources.)
Best regards,
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.milonga.hu/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Derik Rawson
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 10:23 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution - belly dancing
>
> Dear Carlos, Si Senor. So Turkish tango is closer to the
> roots. Also anyone know the roots of the words tango and
> bandodeon? Derik
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:31:45 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - belly dancing
Dear Aron, Thank you for the roots of those words. I
think that you are right about both. What I love about
tango is that it comes from all cultures and it is an
endless surprise, Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <aron@MILONGA.HU> wrote:
> Hello Derik,
>
> Bandoneon (originally spellt as Bandonion) is from
the name of it's
> developer Heinrich Band. He used his own name to
brand the special type
> of
> konzertina he was making.
>
> In case of tango there are several contradictory
theories. Especially so
> that this word (and it's probable kins-ancestors)
appears in many
> cultures
> with several different meanings. It is very likely
though that it has
> African roots and it's meaning had to do something
with social
> gathering,
> music and dancing (either or all - such events
usually feature all this
> in
> these cultures). Nevertheless, the way tango got
it's name _probably_
> has
> very little to do with it's musical or terpsichorial
ancestry.
>
> However, I suggest you look around on the net,
you'll find enough
> resources
> on this. (I recommend www.history-of-tango.com
Christine Denniston - the
> material she collected appears to be in accord with
what I've learnt
> form
> many other sources.)
>
> Best regards,
> Aron
>
> Ecsedy Aron
> Aron ECSEDY
>
> Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
> ICQ# 46386265
> https://www.milonga.hu/
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine
Tango
> > [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Derik
Rawson
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 10:23 PM
> > To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution - belly
dancing
> >
> > Dear Carlos, Si Senor. So Turkish tango is closer
to the
> > roots. Also anyone know the roots of the words
tango and
> > bandodeon? Derik
>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:00:34 -0800
From: Angel Montero <angel_montero01@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
Actually I have a little more information about the
subject:
Bandonesn derives for a German word (bandoneon, no
accent here) form by the acronism BAND (from H. Band,
1821-1860, musician who invented it) ON (from
harmONika) and EON (from AkkordEON)
Tango is more complicated. Consulting the official
dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy (www.rea.es) I
came across two theories. One says that it is probably
an onomatopoeic word, and the other makes it derived
from the 1st person of indicative of the verb "taqer"
(to play a guitar or a similar instrument); in this
case "Yo tango" means "I play" (meaning a guitar).
I hope this helps.
angel
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:18:55 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
> Tango is more complicated. Consulting the official
> dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy (www.rea.es) I
> came across two theories. One says that it is probably
> an onomatopoeic word, and the other makes it derived
> from the 1st person of indicative of the verb "taqer"
> (to play a guitar or a similar instrument); in this
> case "Yo tango" means "I play" (meaning a guitar).
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> angel
Dear Angel,
how would you explain that in flamenco,there is also a dance called "tango"?
I learned both, and found they have nothing to do with each other, at least
not more than allegrias, bulerias etc. have with tango.
Astrid
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:38:44 -0800
From: Angel Montero <angel_montero01@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
Dear Astrid:
The existence of another dance called tango that has
nothing to do with the Argentine one, would support
the theory of the word deriving from "taqer" (I hope
everybody gets the right character "q"), since, as
every flamenco dance, it is accompanied by a guitar.
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:24:18 EST
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
Why can't the meaning of Tango simply be from the Latin word for "I touch"
(as in "tangent") ? When Tango first hit the scene in Europe, the touching was,
to the Europeans, the most obvious element of the dance. Recall that earlier
in the century the waltz had been regarded as shocking, for similar reasons.
It was, to their sensitivities, when compared to a quadrille, minuet,
bourree, etc. I can easily imagine that the Tango was in the same direction, only
more so.
Laurie
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:48:50 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
> Why can't the meaning of Tango simply be from the Latin word for "I touch"
> (as in "tangent") ? When Tango first hit the scene in Europe, the touching
was,
> to the Europeans, the most obvious element of the dance. Recall that
earlier
> in the century the waltz had been regarded as shocking, for similar
reasons.
> It was, to their sensitivities, when compared to a quadrille, minuet,
> bourree, etc. I can easily imagine that the Tango was in the same
direction, only
> more so.
>
I believe, that by the time the tango arrived in Europpe, the minuet was
long gone. And people were used to valse, polka and such (correct me
please,if I am wrong) And I believe, the tango never arrived in it's
original form in Europe, but was always a dance of the upper classes, to be
danced in knee length chiffon gowns and such. By that time people were
dancing Charleston, something way more cheerful and flirtatious than a
menuet.
To get an idea of the atmosphere of Europe in those days, look at Cher
dancing in "Tea with Mussolini".
Don't get your centuries mixed up, Laurie
Astrid
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:34:09 EST
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
Hi Astrid
I agree about the chronology, but not about the psychology. There are still
today (2005) plenty of people who find the closeness of some versions of Tango
Argentino embarrassing. That applies not only to elderly ballroom fanatics,
but also to younger people who come to it from Lindy Hop, Salsa, and other
dances which can be, even if they are not always, done at a more sober
distance. I don't understand their feelings about this, but it seems to be there
nonetheless.
One of my commonest activities when teaching Tango is to move the man's arm
gradually further and further round the lady's back. One of the first things
that a man has to learn is to negotiate a distance which a given lady finds
comfortable. That, in my experience, depends much upon where she was first
taught Tango, and by whom. It may occasionally show an innate reticence, but
that, I think, is rarer nowadays.
Laurie
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:07:18 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
> Hi Astrid
>
> I agree about the chronology, but not about the psychology. There are
still
> today (2005) plenty of people who find the closeness of some versions of
Tango
> Argentino embarrassing. That applies not only to elderly ballroom
fanatics,
> but also to younger people who come to it from Lindy Hop, Salsa, and
other
> dances which can be, even if they are not always, done at a more sober
> distance.
Laurie,
it is Americans who dance Lindy Hop. Europeans do not usually have these
kind of problems. We are not Puritan, and Queen Victoria's reign was limited
to Great Britain. This may surprise you, but Germans are a lot more open and
down to Earth than their reputation would have them Since the start of the
EU or even before, the Mediterranean way of greeting has spread around the
North, too. When we see friends and relatives, we often hug each other and
kiss each other on both cheeks. It depends on the country whether it is one
cheek or both, the left cheek or the right, or even four kisses, but that's
what we do.
My favourite men to dance tango with at times are Russians, with their bear
hug.
It seems to be an American weakness to sometimes project their culture on to
others, and to believe, that everybody else does what they do, and have the
same values like them, without even taking a close look at the other
country. We don't necessarily have the same customs on our continent.
Go eahead, flame me if you want.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:29:32 -0500
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
> One of my commonest activities when teaching Tango is to move
> the man's arm gradually further and further round the lady's back. One of
> the first things that a man has to learn is to negotiate a distance which
a
> given lady finds comfortable.
Hi Laurie,
I am curious about this.. and anyone elses opinion on the subject. Who do
you feel dictates the embrace? Normally when I take an embrace.. I begin by
offering my left hand.. the woman takes my left hand and then puts her left
arm around my right side. Now how far she goes is usually going to dictate
our embrace.
I dance both open and close so if she stops half way around my back then we
dance open and if she snuggles in then we dance close. Now that is not to
say that this is always the case.. If she takes a more open embrace and I am
wanting to dance close.. I may ask.. do you feel like dancing close? If she
says yes.. then we adjust. The opposite will also happen sometimes.. I will
dance with someone that I usually dance open embrace with and will ask if
they would not mind dancing open (maybe because of the music, temperature,
just because that is what I feel like).
I guess.. if Tango is a conversation then the embrace is the first part of
the conversation/negotiation.
Clint>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:30:19 -0500
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
Astrid,
I am not going to flame you.. but I did feel your comments were too strongly
worded and a touch on the rude side. I did not read anything in Laurie's
email that would have prompted such a response. I just re-read here email
and she made no value judgements.. she only made observations to what she
has experienced and seen.
> it is Americans who dance Lindy Hop.
Lindy Hop definately started in the US but is now danced all over the world.
Here is a list of Lindy Hop Links (https://www.savoystyle.com/links.html) and
there are listings for Lindy Hop groups all over the world.
Actually, this (https://www.herrang.com/) is a group of Lindy dancers from
Sweden, who are widely considered one of the best dance groups in the
world.. every year they hold a Dance camp where all the best Lindy Hoppers
go.
If I were a normal poster to this list.. now is where I would insert my rude
comments and thinly veiled inserts. ;-)
Clint
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:13:56 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins (US - nonUS / OFF TOPIC)
Dear US and Non-US List Members,
Actually there is a big difference in attitude between Europe and the US and
there are some generalisms which do apply _generally_.
Astrid's comments - in this case - were as true as they are, even if she did
not really go into details. Generally. As such, they may or may not apply to
any individual from the afforementioned cultures. In this case, I do not
believe that Astrid reprimanded Laurie of being American or being
indifferent. She merely pointed out the fact that her point of view may be
skewed by a cultural prejudices - and then explained what she meant by it.
IMHO: her remarks have a sharp edge to Northern Americans, but believe it or
not this is one of those things which pisses quite a lot of Europeans (and
other people) off. Sorry.
Best wishes,
Aron
PS: the definition of being "rude" is ALSO NOT UNIVERSAL. Again: please DO
NOT think that your own point of view is the only one. In some middle and
far eastern states burping loudly expresses that the food consumed was
delicious. Or one that you probably know: orthodox jews don't shake hands.
On the other hand :) rejecting an extended hand, in Western society, IS
rude.
Ecsedy Áron
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.milonga.hu/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Clint Rauscher
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 6:30 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution - word origins
>
> Astrid,
>
> I am not going to flame you.. but I did feel your comments
> were too strongly worded and a touch on the rude side. I did
> not read anything in Laurie's email that would have prompted
> such a response. I just re-read here email and she made no
> value judgements.. she only made observations to what she has
> experienced and seen.
>
> > it is Americans who dance Lindy Hop.
>
> Lindy Hop definately started in the US but is now danced all
> over the world.
>
> Here is a list of Lindy Hop Links
> (https://www.savoystyle.com/links.html) and there are listings
> for Lindy Hop groups all over the world.
>
> Actually, this (https://www.herrang.com/) is a group of Lindy
> dancers from Sweden, who are widely considered one of the
> best dance groups in the world.. every year they hold a Dance
> camp where all the best Lindy Hoppers go.
>
> If I were a normal poster to this list.. now is where I would
> insert my rude comments and thinly veiled inserts. ;-)
>
> Clint
>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:37:12 -0800
From: Angel Montero <angel_montero01@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
That is exactly what I tried to say. The Latin
"tangent" became "taNer" in Spanish. If you speak
Spanish, you already know that in that language you
don't "play" an instrument, you "touch" it (Yo toco la
guitarra).
When you play a string instrument with your hands
(guitar, lute, mandolin), you can also say "yo tango
la guitarra". TaNer is one of those irregular verbes
that make Spanish so damn complicated.
Again, more etymology can be found at www.rae.es
N.B.: Every time I wrote a capital N, I meant the
letter that in the Spanish alphabet follows "n"
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:49:58 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
LGMoseley@AOL.COM wrote:
><snipped>
>
>One of my commonest activities when teaching Tango is to move the man's arm
>gradually further and further round the lady's back.
>
I sometimes do that even during a dance as I establish contact with
my partner and feel her comfort level go up. IOW, I try to give just
a bit better than I get, as much as my partner allows.
>One of the first things
>that a man has to learn is to negotiate a distance which a given lady finds
>comfortable. That, in my experience, depends much upon where she was first
>taught Tango, and by whom. It may occasionally show an innate reticence, but
>that, I think, is rarer nowadays.
>
Heh, come dance in the American Midwest: with a few exceptions, 8 inches
is about the usual distance followers here feel comfortable with. Even
many married couples feel somewhat reticent to dance much closer with each
other. That's definitely a local cultural phenomenon, and it eases only
slightly in your more urban area like Chicago or St. Louis (though that
may be a result of how teachers there approach the dance), IMO.
I think a large part of that comes from the notion around here that dancing
close marks a romantic, not an everyday context.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:05:16 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - belly dancing
> ...It seems that the skills learned in belly dancing
> directly translate into effective and delightful
> following. Specifically,
> the ability to isolate different body parts and move
> them independently taught the women how to
differentiate the upper torso from the hips, which
> is a key skill in tango dancing as we all know.
>
Funny, I had always thought that it was belly dancing
that had let me experience the sheer joy of
improvising dance without an intermediary like a
choreagrapher - or a leader.
Marisa
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:09:35 -0800
From: Svetlana Didorenko <svetlanadi@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
Hi Clint,
it may be a wrong observation of mine (is it?), but what I see is that most
social dancers prefer to dance close at the milongas (in San Francisco),
separating occasionally. Since for me, as a follower, it is the leader who
determines the general style of the dance (he may be more familiar with or
prefer closer embrace or open), I let the man embrace me the way he wants,
normally being available for close embrace. Yet I always keep the
sensitivity to the minute changes that may suggest his desire to open up. If
the close embrace is bluntly uncomfortable, then I'll try to open it up
myself or, even more likely, will not dance more than a couple of dances
with that person.
I prefer not to dictate the embrace myself since my understanding of the
lead is crucial to the dance. And if I embrace the way he's not used to or
prefers not to, he may not dance in his preferred style and that will take
away tremendously from the dance.
Svetlana.
San Francisco
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution - word origins
> > One of my commonest activities when teaching Tango is to move
> > the man's arm gradually further and further round the lady's back. One
of
> > the first things that a man has to learn is to negotiate a distance
which
> a
> > given lady finds comfortable.
>
> Hi Laurie,
>
> I am curious about this.. and anyone elses opinion on the subject. Who do
> you feel dictates the embrace? Normally when I take an embrace.. I begin
by
> offering my left hand.. the woman takes my left hand and then puts her
left
> arm around my right side. Now how far she goes is usually going to dictate
> our embrace.
>
> I dance both open and close so if she stops half way around my back then
we
> dance open and if she snuggles in then we dance close. Now that is not to
> say that this is always the case.. If she takes a more open embrace and I
am
> wanting to dance close.. I may ask.. do you feel like dancing close? If
she
> says yes.. then we adjust. The opposite will also happen sometimes.. I
will
> dance with someone that I usually dance open embrace with and will ask if
> they would not mind dancing open (maybe because of the music, temperature,
> just because that is what I feel like).
>
> I guess.. if Tango is a conversation then the embrace is the first part of
> the conversation/negotiation.
>
> Clint>
>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:30:32 -0500
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
> it may be a wrong observation of mine (is it?), but what I
> see is that most
> social dancers prefer to dance close at the milongas (in San
> Francisco),
Yes... most social dancing does seem to be close embrace.. the close embrace
community seems to have a very good marketing firm ;-). Actually, the clubs
are so crowded in Buenos Aires that close embrace became more and more
necessary there, but it is certainly not always like that. If you look back
at pictures from the 40s, 50s and 60s you will see people dancing a variying
degrees of closeness. All tango is close embrace.
I dance mostly close embrace at this point but still dance open plenty. I
could not imagine having to pick one style over another.
> separating occasionally. Since for me, as a follower, it is
> the leader who
> determines the general style of the dance (he may be more
> familiar with or
> prefer closer embrace or open), I let the man embrace me the
> way he wants,
Yes.. the man usually decides the choreography of the dance, but I think
women have more control than they think they do. Particularly when it comes
to the embrace. When we offer our hand for a dance you are really the one to
decide how close it gets. Now certainly, you would not go up to a leader
that you know only dances close and expect him to dance open.
At the same time, should it be acceptable for a leader to go up to a woman
that only dances open and expect her to dance close?
I guess what I am proposing is that if more people were fluent in both
styles of tango then we could have a lot more to say in our dancing. It
could be close, open or both.
> normally being available for close embrace. Yet I always keep the
> sensitivity to the minute changes that may suggest his desire
> to open up.
Sounds like you are a wonderful dancer.
> the close embrace is bluntly uncomfortable, then I'll try to
> open it up
> myself or, even more likely, will not dance more than a
> couple of dances
> with that person.
Yes.. I always encourge the women here to not dance with men that hurt them.
Actually, I encourge them to talk with them and let them know first. It
seems that many close embrace leaders have bad habits, such as bending the
followers wrists back, squeezing the air out of the follow, resting their
chins on womens heads.. etc. I think the only people that can truly fix this
are the women themselves.
> I prefer not to dictate the embrace myself since my
> understanding of the
> lead is crucial to the dance.
Dictate is a strong word.. Since Tango is a conversation without words.. I
would say that you can suggest the embrace at the beginning of the dance. He
can always have a retort or suggest another embrace, but I think you are the
one that gets to make the first suggestion.
Clint
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:03:05 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: How close is "close embrace" was Tango evolution - word origins
Clint:
Generally, the woman defines the closeness of the embrace. I encourage close embrace but I can't pull a woman in close who doesn't want to =
dance closely. Since I don't like dancing open, I do my best to watch followers and dance with those who dance closely.
One of the reasons dancers have problems dancing close is they are so damn stiff! When a woman pushes hard on her right hand, we can't dance =
close. She pushes me away from her center, away from the central alignment that is needed for the dance. I wasn't aware that the more she =
pushed me away to her right, the tighter I held her around her waist, trying to maintain the alignment. A woman's stiff right arm limits her =
ability to dance. She can't do a forward ocho to her right because her stiff right arm acts as a wall. When women tell me to stop holding them =
so tightly, I say "Sure, just as soon as you stop pushing me off my axis with your right arm." It used to bother me I couldn't dance with every =
woman. My teacher told me "quality, not quantity." There is a chemistry to tango and every couple isn't a good match.
Dancers don't understand that you can't be tense in only one part of the body. Tenseness in the arm will spread to the legs. When it gets to the =
legs, the leg muscles grip and you can't move. You can't maintain your weight forward with stiff muscles. I'm so glad I went to yoga for three =
years to get the tension wrung out of me like a towel going through a wringer. I just couldn't believe how much tension I was carrying!!
The best part of dancing closely is when the woman decides to dance closer. I feel her arm going higher up my arm. A New Yorker I danced =
with in Florida softly pulled me closer into her. I thought my heart was going to explode.
If you want to dance closely, you first have to relax!!
Michael Ditkoff
Washington Tango Marathon in 5 weeks
Denver Tango Festival in 3 months
NY Tango Festival 5 months
Thank goodness for calendars to keep everything straight
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Rauscher
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango evolution - word origins
> One of my commonest activities when teaching Tango is to move > the man's arm gradually further and further round the lady's back. One of > =
the first things that a man has to learn is to negotiate a distance which a > given lady finds comfortable.
Hi Laurie,
I am curious about this.. and anyone elses opinion on the subject. Who do
you feel dictates the embrace?
Clint>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:41:49 EST
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
Clint wrote
"Hi Laurie,
I am curious about this.. and anyone elses opinion on the subject. Who do
you feel dictates the embrace? "
I think that it is like the general idea of "leading" in Tango. Although we
colloquially and loosely use the word in English, we do not emphasize it.
After all, the Spanish word "marcar" means something more like "to indicate". We
therefore use the teaching mantra
The man indicates, the woman leads, and the man follows.
One of our demonstrations to beginners is for me to move my chest forward,
without moving my feet. My partner, Janet, will then start to step back on her
free foot. Finally, only then I will take my first step into the space that
she has vacated. If one stops after the chest lead, it is obvious to the
beginners that I have made an indication (certainly not a step), but she has
actually led. Once again, she might be aware of something (a bad patch on the
floor, a strap slipping, for example) of which I was unaware and she might for
that reason reject my invitation to step.
The embrace is similar. It is something to be negotiated. A suggestion here,
a hesitation there, a closer response to follow, and so on. I don't think
that there is any dictation.
If there is an ultimate decision-maker, it is the woman. After all, she can
always say, or indicate, "No thank you". That seems to me to be healthy.
Abrazos
Laurie
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:50:53 EST
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
Clint wrote
"I did not read anything in Laurie's
email that would have prompted such a response. I just re-read here email
and she made no value judgements.. she only made observations to what she
has experienced and seen."
I welcome Clint's defence, and have written to Astrid privately in a pacific
manner. However, lest anyone gets the wrong idea, I have to hasten to state
that I am male and bearded ! My baptismal name is Laurence. I was actually
named after Lawrence of Arabia, but my father spelled the guy's name wrong !!
Incidentally, I don't often use my full name - Laurence - when
corresponding with Francophones. I usually change my signature to Laurent. For them,
Laurence is a female name. So, I get a gender change from someone around the
world, whether I sign with the full name, or the abbreviated one!
Abrazos a todos
Laurie
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:39:13 -0800
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
>>>>>>>
but I think women have more control than they think they do. Particularly when it
Comes to the embrace. At the same time, should it be acceptable for a leader to go up to a
Woman that only dances open and expect her to dance close?
>>>>
Nothing wrong with what is being stated, very logical and politically correct. But my humble suggestion is for men and women is,.. people when you dance, please stop thinking in this way, just dance, find some pleasure, give it all and accept what is given. If you do not like someone's embrace or do not want to embrace somebody, please dont dance with them.
Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM> wrote:
> it may be a wrong observation of mine (is it?), but what I
> see is that most
> social dancers prefer to dance close at the milongas (in San
> Francisco),
Yes... most social dancing does seem to be close embrace.. the close embrace
community seems to have a very good marketing firm ;-). Actually, the clubs
are so crowded in Buenos Aires that close embrace became more and more
necessary there, but it is certainly not always like that. If you look back
at pictures from the 40s, 50s and 60s you will see people dancing a variying
degrees of closeness. All tango is close embrace.
I dance mostly close embrace at this point but still dance open plenty. I
could not imagine having to pick one style over another.
> separating occasionally. Since for me, as a follower, it is
> the leader who
> determines the general style of the dance (he may be more
> familiar with or
> prefer closer embrace or open), I let the man embrace me the
> way he wants,
Yes.. the man usually decides the choreography of the dance, but I think
women have more control than they think they do. Particularly when it comes
to the embrace. When we offer our hand for a dance you are really the one to
decide how close it gets. Now certainly, you would not go up to a leader
that you know only dances close and expect him to dance open.
At the same time, should it be acceptable for a leader to go up to a woman
that only dances open and expect her to dance close?
I guess what I am proposing is that if more people were fluent in both
styles of tango then we could have a lot more to say in our dancing. It
could be close, open or both.
> normally being available for close embrace. Yet I always keep the
> sensitivity to the minute changes that may suggest his desire
> to open up.
Sounds like you are a wonderful dancer.
> the close embrace is bluntly uncomfortable, then I'll try to
> open it up
> myself or, even more likely, will not dance more than a
> couple of dances
> with that person.
Yes.. I always encourge the women here to not dance with men that hurt them.
Actually, I encourge them to talk with them and let them know first. It
seems that many close embrace leaders have bad habits, such as bending the
followers wrists back, squeezing the air out of the follow, resting their
chins on womens heads.. etc. I think the only people that can truly fix this
are the women themselves.
> I prefer not to dictate the embrace myself since my
> understanding of the
> lead is crucial to the dance.
Dictate is a strong word.. Since Tango is a conversation without words.. I
would say that you can suggest the embrace at the beginning of the dance. He
can always have a retort or suggest another embrace, but I think you are the
one that gets to make the first suggestion.
Clint
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:50:47 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Embrace Distance (was Tango evolution - word origins)
> Heh, come dance in the American Midwest: with a few
> exceptions, 8 inches
> is about the usual distance followers here feel
> comfortable with. Even
> many married couples feel somewhat reticent to dance
> much closer with each
> other. That's definitely a local cultural
> phenomenon, and it eases only
> slightly in your more urban area like Chicago or St.
> Louis (though that
> may be a result of how teachers there approach the
> dance), IMO.
That was true in our region (PA/OH) up until last
year, which was about 2 years after we introduced it
locally and made it a regular part of our program.
Others area organizers did the same thing. Last
summer more open-embrace folks began realizing that
they had to learn close-embrace, too. Hugging helped
a lot.
Trini de Pittsburgh
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:18:47 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How close is "close embrace" was Tango evolution - word origins
--- Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET> wrote:
> One of the reasons dancers have problems dancing
> close is they are so damn stiff! When a woman pushes
> hard on her right hand, we can't dance close. She
> pushes me away from her center, away from the
> central alignment that is needed for the dance. I
> wasn't aware that the more she pushed me away to her
> right, the tighter I held her around her waist,
> trying to maintain the alignment. A woman's stiff
> right arm limits her ability to dance. She can't do
> a forward ocho to her right because her stiff right
> arm acts as a wall. When women tell me to stop
> holding them so tightly, I say "Sure, just as soon
> as you stop pushing me off my axis with your right
> arm."
OK, explain this to me again. If a woman wants to
dance farther apart (or maybe just has a habit of
pressing more firmly with the right hand than you
prefer) and pushes away from you she's shoving you off
axis - and she's at fault. If you want to dance
closer (or feel off balance) and drag her towards you
by her middle so she can't turn her hips or maintain
her own balance, even if she tells you the embrace is
uncomfortable, you're trying to correct her error -
and she's at fault.
Marisa
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 02:42:57 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: the embrace- was Tango evolution - word origins
> I am curious about this.. and anyone elses opinion on the subject. Who do
> you feel dictates the embrace? "
There is something intrinsically wrong with this question. An embrace is not
something anyone "dictates". In all these years, I only once danced with a
middle aged Japanese man in class who asked me:"Why won't you dance close
with me?" I just gave him a reproachful look and kept my distance. "The
teacher says, the embrace should be close." Another look from me, contempt
rising inside me. Then he took my left hand off his shoulder and tried to
move it around his neck. I pulled back, and put the palm of my hand flat
against his upper arm, keeping him at a distance.. That was probably the
last time I danced with this man. Because he had understood nothing. Not
about tango, not about the embrace, and more than anything, not about women.
This is not at all the way it works.
I will tell you what I do. When I dance with someone I feel comfortable
with, and know he can probably handle dancing in this position, I lightly
put my hand on his right shoulder. Then I sort of lift my elbow a little
bit, opening the space under my armpit for him. By this time, he usually
pulls me a little closer, gliding his shoulder towards my armpit. So I lift
my arm a little more, and gently slide my hand behind his neck. This subtle
sliding process of closing in on each other continues, until either I
stiffen my arm and put my left hand down more firmly, or until he stops
gliding into the embrace. And then, that is how we dance.
>
I remember how surprised I was the first time, when one day I danced with an
Argentine teacher, and I tried to dance closer and closer. It suddenly sort
of went "Click", and his right shoulder slipped right inside my armpit. I
did not even know that hugging someone this close was possible. Now I dance
like that most of the time.
Astrid
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:39:47 -0500
From: Ed Doyle <doyleed@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 19:41 -0500, LGMoseley@AOL.COM wrote:
> One of our demonstrations to beginners is for me to move my chest forward,
> without moving my feet. My partner, Janet, will then start to step back on her
> free foot. Finally, only then I will take my first step into the space that
> she has vacated. If one stops after the chest lead, it is obvious to the
> beginners that I have made an indication (certainly not a step), but she has
> actually led. Once again, she might be aware of something (a bad patch on the
> floor, a strap slipping, for example) of which I was unaware and she might for
> that reason reject my invitation to step.
>
...
> Laurie
Hi Laurie and All,
I am a beginner and am extremely impressed by what Laurie and many other
write that they can do. I can easily picture that if you were teaching
beginners and had an experienced partner (assistant) who could feel the
leaders chest move forward, she would move her free foot back but not
move her body, especially if she knows the instructor is going to
demonstrate this, but on a real dance floor, in a real dance, can you
really just move your chest forward, and feel whether your partner did
or did not move her free foot (perhaps she chooses not to move because
she is rejecting your invitation to move forward), and if she did not
move her foot, can you then instantly plan a recovery (your chest has
now already moved forward) and a new move. Don't misunderstand, I am not
being critical, in fact I am envious if you really can do this, but for
me, if I move my chest forward, I am expecting to move my foot next and
if my poor lady didn't move her foot as a reaction to my chest move, I
am afraid I would step on her foot.
In other words, to me what you describe above is a neat demonstration of
super self control (by both the leader and the follower) and if pictured
in slow motion, the man's chest moved, the lady interpreted it as an
'invitation' to move her free foot back, and then the man 'followed' her
lead to move his foot into the space she vacated, but in real life
dancing at normal speed, does this really happen that way with you
experienced dancers. Again, as a beginner, when I move my chest forward
enough to cause my partner to move her free foot back, I am already
pretty much committed to move forward. I have no fall back position if
she were to reject my invitation (this rejection would come as quite a
surprise to me and probably completely erase my mind for the moment).
Do you think I will be able to do as you describe with experience, or
are words and writings here getting just a little bit too analytical
and idealistic and perhaps a little unrelated to what really happens on
the dance floor or do I just have a whole lot more to learn?
Thanks for any thoughts anyone wants to share.
Ed
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:10:54 +1100
From: Chanop Silpa-Anan <chanop@MAIL.RSISE.ANU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Tango evolution - word origins
Hi Ed,
On a good day of Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 02:39:47PM -0500, Ed Doyle wrote
> On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 19:41 -0500, LGMoseley@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> > One of our demonstrations to beginners is for me to move my chest forward,
> > without moving my feet. [snip]
> I am a beginner and am extremely impressed by what Laurie and many other
> write that they can do. [snip]
> in fact I am envious if you really can do this, but for
> me, if I move my chest forward, I am expecting to move my foot next and
> if my poor lady didn't move her foot as a reaction to my chest move, I
> am afraid I would step on her foot.
I beleive that it is possible. Let's picture the mechanics this way for
a moment. When you are standing on your own, you can move your body
forward and backward such that you feel more weight at the toe and heel,
right? When you embrace your partner at the right position, you both
still can move forward and backward together in opposite direction.
However if your four feet are either too far or too close together, the
movement would be more difficult, or even impossible, to execute. This
displays a good deal of body control and the couple balance. A good
local instructor should be able to tell you more about the secret.
Cheers,
Chanop
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:43:09 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: How close is "close embrace" was Tango evolution - word origins
Marisa:
If a woman pushes me off OUR alignment (buttons to buttons), yes, that's
her fault. If I push her off our alignment, that's MY fault. The central
alignment is crucial to this dance. When I go food shopping, I choose a
shopping cart that has front wheels in alignment so they go in the same
direction. If they don't, the cart is going to wobble. It doesn't make any
difference if I push the cart in open or close embrace, the wheels still
have to be alignment for smooth shopping.
Regardless if I dance open (only at the woman's request) or close, there
is still a required central alignment. The more the woman pushes me off
the alignment, the more I cling to her to maintain the alignment. I cannot
dance off center. Dancing open by pushing me off the side and creating
space between us are NOT the same thing. If a woman is uncomfortable in
close embrace, we will dance open maintaining the central alignment.
Dancers need flexibility at the waist so that the top and bottom can move
independently of the other. When the woman executes a molinete, the bottom
half is pivoting while the chest should face her partner. Stiff dancers
don't have flexibility and because of gripped muscles, have great
difficulty doing ochos because it's difficult to pivot. This is why I went
for yoga for three years; to develop badly needed flexibility by squeezing
the tension out of me.
Hope this clarifies the point.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
>
Marisa asked:
> OK, explain this to me again. If a woman wants to
> dance farther apart (or maybe just has a habit of
> pressing more firmly with the right hand than you
> prefer) and pushes away from you she's shoving you off
> axis - and she's at fault. If you want to dance
> closer (or feel off balance) and drag her towards you
> by her middle so she can't turn her hips or maintain
> her own balance, even if she tells you the embrace is
> uncomfortable, you're trying to correct her error -
> and she's at fault.
>
> Marisa
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:59:27 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: pre-leads (was Tango evolution - word origins)
--- Ed Doyle <doyleed@SPRYNET.COM> wrote:
> In other words, to me what you describe above is a
> neat demonstration of
> super self control (by both the leader and the
> follower) and if pictured
> in slow motion, the man's chest moved, the lady
> interpreted it as an
> 'invitation' to move her free foot back, and then
> the man 'followed' her
> lead to move his foot into the space she vacated,
> but in real life
> dancing at normal speed, does this really happen
> that way with you
> experienced dancers.
Hi Ed,
This is may be better understood if you walk heel-toe.
Say you've taken a step. It's the lifting the heel
of your weight-bearing leg (rolling your weight from
the ball of the foot toward your toes) that moves your
chest forward. Hence, your partner moves without her
even thinking about it. You can lift your heel
without moving the ball of your foot (thus, not taking
a step) because of the many bones that comprise the
middle part of your foot.
This SMALL movement is called a pre-lead and is easy
to learn. We learned it with Robin Thomas & Jennifer
Bratt as "three-legged" walking (called the "butt
walk" in earlier threads). Accompanying this
technique is the settling into the hip on the
weight-bearing leg for grounding. I find men who use
this technique easier to dance with than those who
don't.
If you have problem with the woman not moving, you may
want to check whether you've prepared her first.
Shift her weight onto one side and drop into your hip.
This drops her onto her hip and softens the knee of
her other leg, which she will be stepping backward
with.
Hope this helps,
Trini de Pittsburgh
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 02:07:34 -0400
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Tango Evolution Radio - DJ Sets Wanted
Hi All,
We recently started an online radio station that plays tango 24/7. So far we
have had great success. The station has been on the air for a month now and
we have had 725 listeners with an average listening time of 43 minutes.
Listeners have rated our station 9.2 out of 10.
Tune in and listen to your favorite tango tunes from the early days of tango
up to the newest modern recordings. Listen at home or while you are at work.
We hope to bring you all the classics, some new music and some re-discovered
music.
We are constantly searching for new music and old forgotten music. Recently
I purchased a 150 vinyl LP collection of tango albums and am still sifting
through them for gems. I have already found a few and look forward to
sharing them.
To listen go to: https://www.tangoevolution.com/ and click on the Radio
graphic at the bottom of the page.
DJ Sets Wanted
We are looking to create a DJ page to our site which will spotlight
different tango DJs from around the country. Along with your profile page,
we will also give you a hour or two hour DJ Spotlight Show on Tango
Evolution Radio. If you are interested you can send me an email at
clint@tangoevolution.com. We will be looking for the following:
1. Picture
2. Profile Information: Favorite music, Favorite orchestras, etc.
3. DJ set: 1 to 2 hours of tango music in MP3 format on a data CDROM.
The DJ set can include introductions of songs like a radio show format.. or
could be in tanda format. It is really up to you how you use the hour(s).
You can play just Golden Age, just Alternative, or a mixture... It is
completely up to you.
All the best,
Clint
clint@tangoevolution.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:47:52 -0400
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Tango Evolution Radio: Guest DJ and more for July
Thanks to all our listeners that have been logging in, listening, and
sharing feedback this last month. We hope you will continue to enjoy the
radio station. We more than tripled our listener base in just the last 30
days. We have a few special announcements including:
How to Listen
Guest DJ Spotlight: Angel Montero
Artist Spotlight: Hugo Diaz
Top 20 Songs: What are our listeners favorite songs?
Radio Stats: How many of you have been listening and for how long?
Your Show: How can you have your own show?
How to Listen
https://www.live365.com/stations/322388
note: You will need a 56K or better internet connection.
Guest DJ Spotlight
For the rest of June and all of July, the guest DJ spotlight will be on
Atlanta's own Angel Montero. To find out more about Angel and to view his
program's track list visit:
https://www.tangoevolution.com/main.cfm?ID%89
Program Times (EST):
Sun, Mon, Wed - 3pm to 4:30pm
Tues & Thurs - 10:30am to 12pm and 10pm to 11:30pm
Fri & Sat - 12:30pm to 2pm
Artist Spotlight:
We recently purchased several Hugo Diaz LPs and have encoded the best of
them and put them into this Artist spotlight. We have also done some
research and found out some very interesting facts about Hugo. To find out
more visit: https://www.tangoevolution.com/main.cfm? id%79
Program Times (EST):
Daily: 12pm to 12:30pm / 8pm to 8:30pm / 1am to 1:30am
Top 20 Songs based on Listener Feedback
The radio software we use allows listeners to vote on which songs they like
the most.
Rank / Artist / Song / Album
1. Carlos Di Sarli - Rodriguez Pena - RCA Victor 100 Anos
2. Roberto Firpo - El compinche - Un Hito Del Tango
3. Otros Aires - Milonga Senntimental - Otros Aires
4. Gotan Project - Astor Piazzolla - Cite Tango - Inspiracion Espiracion
5. El Arranque - Tiempo cumplido - Maestros
6. Color Tango - Milonga de Mis Amores - Con Estilo... Vol.2
7. Bajofondo Tango Club - Miles De Pasajeros - Supervielle
8. El Arranque - Diciembre en Buenos Aires - Maestros
9. Hugo Diaz - El Lloron - Lo Mejor De Hugo Diaz
10. Carlos Di Sarli - El Once - RCA Victor 100 Anos
11. Rosita Quiroga - Petrona - Las Mujeres Del Tango
12. Roberto Firpo - vea vea / see see - Un Hito Del Tango
13. QuintetoLa Camorra - Libertango - Tango - (Disc 3)
14. Pugliese - Pata Ancha - Pugliese
15. Otros Aires - Sin Rumbo - Otros Aires
16. Otros Aires - Rotos En El Raval - Otros Aires
17. Hugo Diaz - Guitarra Mia - Tangos
18. Hugo Diaz - Suendo De Juventud - Hugo Diaz En Buenos Aires Vol. II
19. Carlos Di Sarli - Cara Sucia - RCA Victor 100 Anos
20. Astor Piazzolla - El Tango - Lecons of Tango
Radio Stats
June
Total Listeners: 1601
Average Listening Time: 46.54
May
Total Listeners: 572
Average Listening Time: 43.32
Your Show
DJ Sets Wanted
We are looking to create a DJ page to our site which will spotlight
different tango DJs from around the country. Along with your profile page,
we will also give you a hour or two hour DJ Spotlight Show on Tango
Evolution Radio. If you are interested you can send me an email at
clint@tangoevolution.com. We will be looking for the following:
1. Picture
2. Profile Information: Favorite music, Favorite orchestras, etc.
3. DJ set: 1 to 2 hours of tango music in MP3 format on a data CDROM.
The DJ set can include introductions of songs like a radio show format.. or
could be in tanda format. It is really up to you how you use the hour(s).
You can play just Golden Age, just Alternative, or a mixture... It is
completely up to you.
All the best,
Clint
clint@tangoevolution.com
https://www.tangoevolution.com
