1601  Tango Fantasia

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:37:28 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Tango Fantasia

I believe that most people refer to tango 'Show' for stage when they talk
about tango 'fantasia'.

Social tango (milonguero, salon or nuevo) is generally danced with the feet
caressing the floor ( there could be some isolated jumps or sentadas
(sittings). The choreography is improvised. It is adapted to the
circumstances of the floor.

Tango Show- Fantasia on the other hand has a pre-established choreography
adjusted to a particular music. The dancers may be lifted in the air for
scenic effect more frequently than in salon tango.
The technique, balance and agility required for Show-Tango far exceeds that
required for salon dancing. The average dancer can greatly improve the
quality of his/her salon dancing by learning some Show-fantasia tango moves.

Many of those moves are learned for the stage oly and are not used in
social dancing.

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:04:05 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Fantasia

----Original Message Follows----

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:50:38 -0800
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Commitment to fundamentals (was Tango Fantasia)

> From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
>
> >The average dancer can greatly improve the
> >quality of his/her salon dancing by learning some Show-fantasia tango
> >moves.

Further, Manuel states

> (he agrees that) the average social dancer can
> improve his or her quality of dancing by taking classes that teach

these

> things (show moves).

I don't agree. In my experience, VERY few average social dancers can
execute a giro (for example) really well - maintaining their own axis,
balance, musicality, and partner connection (not unduly
pulling/pushing/hanging on each other). Those that do these things well
are not average, and they got good by practicing these very things
diligently. Lance Armstrong isn't about to win his 5th Tour de France
because he spends a lot of time in a half-pipe doing flips on a BMX
bike. Since giros are vastly useful and common for dancing socially,
especially when it gets crowded, I would rather people spent more time
practicing this than show moves. In most of the classes where complex
material is introduced, the main problem typically boils down to poor
execution of giros and walking anyway. Concentrating on show moves
takes valuable time away from a focused learning experience on core
items that are more central to what is actually danced socially.

Even more fundamentally than the giro, many people don't pivot well, and
there's a lot of work to be done learning to pivot in a more grounded,
balanced manner. Good teachers know this and teach whole classes
focused on pivoting.

Manuel again:

> .......it's very nice to take lessons from good teachers and

accomplished

> dancers to improve one's technique. It's become lamentably common for

some

> tango dancers to generalize and denigrate show tango because of some

folks

> trying their steps in the wrong place....

Taking a technique-intensive class on walking from one of these good
teachers is TOTALLY interesting and engaging, and a class on
turns/pivots, ochos, etc. can inspire my dance for months.

In the milonga, those dancers who really love the music, and can walk,
connect, turn and navigate rule the floor, period. Those who cannot do
these things have difficulty enjoying themselves, or cause distraction
to others.

I'll take the classes on fundamentals, thank you, and the good teachers
who are committed to producing students who dance well socially will
continue to focus on the fundamentals. The students who are wise
consumers (assuming they want to dance well and get lots of dances at
milongas with good dancers) will stick with the teachers who know how to
teach fundamentals. I die for the few woman who can REALLY walk the
music.

Dan

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:10:10 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Commitment to fundamentals (was Tango Fantasia)

I agree with Dan.
Taking fantasia classes to get better at social dancing sounds to me like
suggesting to an intermediate piano student to try to play Chopin in order
to get better if he cannot even play Bach well yet or something more simple.
Me and my partner have flunked almost all classes for months recently , and
have been just attendintg practicas and milongas, and my partner has
improved vastly. Seems like, just sticking to what you know and working on
that for a while really polishes up your dance.
He would not believe me when I told him he got a lot better, and tried to
find some other reason. "It must have been because I have been taking
classes in Hip Hop", he concluded finally. "Now, in what way would Hip Hop
help you with tango?"I asked, incredulous. He thought for a while.
"Hmm...balance ?"

Astrid

> I don't agree. In my experience, VERY few average social dancers can
> execute a giro (for example) really well - maintaining their own axis,
> balance, musicality, and partner connection (not unduly
> pulling/pushing/hanging on each other). Those that do these things well
> are not average, and they got good by practicing these very things
> diligently. Lance Armstrong isn't about to win his 5th Tour de France
> because he spends a lot of time in a half-pipe doing flips on a BMX
> bike....

I die for the few woman who can REALLY walk the

> music.
>
> Dan
>
>

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:33:09 +0200
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Commitment to fundamentals (was Tango Fantasia)

Astrid, Dan, Tango-L.

We all know this moments when dancing on the dancefloor becomes *extremely*
dangerous: Immediatly after a Tango performance ... ! :;-( Even worse if the
performers had been giving a workshop on spectacular movents the same
day/afternoon ... all those who just learnd those stuff - but not mastering it at
all yet - now want to show off ... ... ... gancho here, gancho there, lift her
up ... etc. pp. ... regardless of any other couples on the dancefloor. I tend
to avoid the floor at those moments!

> I agree with Dan.

As do I!

> Taking fantasia classes to get better at social dancing sounds to me like
> suggesting to an intermediate piano student to try to play Chopin in order
> to get better if he cannot even play Bach well yet or something more
> simple.

"Bach or something more simple" - *ROTFL! :-)))

> "Hmm...balance ?"

Another *very* impoortant point!

Improvement, real improvent, for the Salon comes from praticing ... *the
basics*!!! "Caminar" and some small turns ... yessssss, that feels nice!

Wishing nice, safe, peaceful dances - the good moments with the simple
things!
Christian [still "high" after last weekends tango festival in Oldenburg,
Germany ... :-) ]


--
just my personal 50th of an Euro
christian.luethen@gmx.net
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!




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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:28:10 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Commitment to fundamentals (was Tango Fantasia)

I've seen this happen with people learning West Coast Swing. Its a non-trivial dance & unlike Tango, is not totally led. Before some folks learn how to do the basics/simple things well, they're off doing all kinds of syncopations, complicated-extended count patterns, hijacking the lead, stutter steps/stalls, body rolls & all kinds of whoknowswhat. Its an incredibly flexible dance, one can spend the rest of your life fooling around with it. w/o solid basics though, they're not much fun to dance with. As a remedy, I'll lead 3 six count patterns & 3 eight count whips & suggest not adding anything, at all.

r

"like a bolt out of the blue, fate steps in & sees your through...

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:32:34 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Commitment to fundamentals (was Tango Fantasia)

quick correction: when I think about it, Tango is mostly led. There certainly are opportunities where the leader stops, waits & "listens" to what the follower has to say.

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:21:40 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Commitment to fundamentals (was Tango Fantasia)

Dan writes:

>I don't agree. In my experience, VERY few average social dancers can
>execute a giro (for example) really well - maintaining their own axis,>
>balance, musicality, and partner connection (not unduly
>pulling/pushing/hanging on each other). Those that do these things well
>are not average, and they got good by practicing these very things
>diligently.

Hi Dan, you might be right about the average dancer not being able to do
these things very well. I guess I used the word average a little too
liberally... ;-)

>Lance Armstrong isn't about to win his 5th Tour de France
>because he spends a lot of time in a half-pipe doing flips on a BMX
>bike.

Of course Lance did not win the Tour de France for the 5th consecutive time
by practicing BMX riding... But neither did he do it by occasionally riding
a single speed cruiser along the beach in flip flops with the seat way down
;-)

>Since giros are vastly useful and common for dancing socially,
>especially when it gets crowded, I would rather people spent more time
>practicing this than show moves. Even more fundamentally than the giro,
>many people don't pivot well, and
>there's a lot of work to be done learning to pivot in a more grounded,
>balanced manner. Good teachers know this and teach whole classes
>focused on pivoting.

I think that we are more in agreement than you think. The very thing that
"show dancers / teachers" teach is precisely the giros and pivots, and the
proper techniques to execute these movements.
The practice and learning of giros and pivots is crucial to the development
of a good dancer. I've had the good fortune of learning much of this
material from the better known dancers of tango.

I guess it is difficult to get thoughts across in these forums sometimes.
I'm a great believer in the teaching of the basic elements of tango. I spend
lots of time teaching people just to move with the music and their partner.
I was trying to say that the teachings of people such as Fabian Salas &
Carolina, Osvaldo & Lorena, and many others that I cannot name because it
would take up lots of space, are very valuable. Gustavo Naveira & Giselle
Anne for instance, are outstanding teachers as well as performers. I've
travelled around the world to take classes with them and I totally believe
that his grasp of the fiundamentals of tango and his ability to teach them
is phenomenal.

Of course, I agree with you and others who decry the clowning and abuse of
milongas by folks who either don't know better or just don't care.
Performing acrobatic moves that belong on the stage, in a milonga is not
only silly but dangerous and insensitive to the other people's feelings. I
want to enjoy my milongas dancing small, rhythmic and smooth tangos. I do
not enjoy it when people start doing moves that interfere with the flow of
the dance. This is a very fundamental tenet of my beliefs and teachings of
tango. It's just that I don't like to see fine professionals denigrated
because the actions of a few misguided folks.

In my thinking, whether you are an average dancer practicing your pivots and
giros, or an aspiring tango star, you would still profit tremendously by
taking some lessons at the appropriate level with a master teacher. You see,
we are really in agreement although it takes some effort to show it ;-)

Profitable tango lessons to all,

Manuel


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