3166 Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:26:24 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
There was an interesting discussion on roots and nature of the dance couple
weeks ago. I was too busy to participate at the time trying to figure out if
I should take couple months of vacation in BsAs or not. But I did read.
What I got from the discussion is basically that tango is intimacy without
responsibility and I agree with this definition of the dance wholeheartedly.
It was so at the beginning of the dance nostalgically mourned by Astrid in
Japan
(https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06335.html) and Tine in
Yale (https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06336.html, oh, the
frustrations of emancipation) and this is even more so in the contemporary,
alienated society (Ecsedy Aron,
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06315.html), why bash
western society though? Alienation is common throughout contemporary world).
No wonder that organizations interested in promotion of only one kind of
intimacy, the one which is institutionalized in marriage only (church,
state, bourgeois moralizers
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06334.html) oppose(d) the
dance so fervently.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:04:53 -0700
From: Deb Sclar <deb@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
"intimacy without responsibility"
This statement is SCARY and verging on the RIDICULOUS! I PROFOUNDLY
disagree - here's why.
Followers are asked, as part of THEIR role and RESPONSIBILITY to their
LEADERS in this dance, to surrender their will and decision-making about the
when and where of each step, weight change and pivot. This is NO small
feat - in fact, it's an ENORMOUS demand requiring one HELLUVA lot of
practice to pull off mechanically. Emotionally and intellectually, it's even
MORE complicated, requiring a HELLUVA lot of maturity, deep personal
understanding, trust and confidence (in ourselves, our sense of musicality
and last but HARDLY least, trust and confidence in our leaders)! So ladies
(and those gentlemen that may agree with my perspective), I apologise,
because of course I'm articulating this VERY simplistically and only
touching on the tip of this vast iceberg!!!
For those who feel tango DOES offer "intimacy without responsibility," here
is my question to you: is not the leader RESPONSIBLE for his/her followers'
safety, AT MINIMUM???? Does not the fact that followers, in the act of
surrender to our leader/s in the dance, merit their protection and
appreciation, care and COMPLETE attention??!?!!? In point of fact, leaders -
your willingness to be responsible for each follower in EVERY dance,
regardless of the level or quality of intimacy achieved, is not really up
for grabs AT ALL. It simply comes with the territory, no?!?!!?
In fact, there is an exchange of responsibility taking place in tango that
makes this "intimacy without responsibility" statement absolutely ludicrous.
I believe EACH dancer (BOTH roles) accepts MULTIPLE responsibilities, not
only to each partner (AND the dance floor AND other dancers in the room AND
the music AND AND AND AND etc.), but to themselves. In accepting these
responsibilities, we clear the way when we take another human being in our
arms, to make this dance possible, safe, pleasurable, etc. Beyond that, it's
my conviction that, when these myriad and multi-layered responsibilities are
understood and fully embraced (pun intended, CLARO), it is then we create
the possibility to achieve the magic we all crave - those inexplicable,
heavenly dances we remember for a life time, that keep us all coming back to
tango again and again and again.
Just an opinion.
Deb Sclar
www.danceoftheheart.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:26 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango - intimacy without responsibility
There was an interesting discussion on roots and nature of the dance couple
weeks ago. I was too busy to participate at the time trying to figure out if
I should take couple months of vacation in BsAs or not. But I did read.
What I got from the discussion is basically that tango is intimacy without
responsibility and I agree with this definition of the dance wholeheartedly.
It was so at the beginning of the dance nostalgically mourned by Astrid in
Japan
(https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06335.html) and Tine in
Yale (https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06336.html, oh, the
frustrations of emancipation) and this is even more so in the contemporary,
alienated society (Ecsedy Aron,
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06315.html), why bash
western society though? Alienation is common throughout contemporary world).
No wonder that organizations interested in promotion of only one kind of
intimacy, the one which is institutionalized in marriage only (church,
state, bourgeois moralizers
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06334.html) oppose(d) the
dance so fervently.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:55:55 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Hello Deb,
Ah, the lure of the Caps Lock button. It felt the tingling as if distant
thunderstorm was approaching. Well I'll try to be responsible for duration
of this message and will resist the temptation to use the caps except in the
beginning of the sentences.
Back to responsibility. Notice that everything you have listed is
responsibility for the duration of the actual dance (just like I am behaving
responsibly while writing this message - no caps lock). Without those things
the intimacy of the dance would be impossible or at the very least severely
impaired. I of course was talking about the responsibility after the dance -
there is none.
Is this notion of lack of responsibility after the dance ludicrous or even
bordering on that? I think not. Moreover I think it's good and crucial for
maintaining the intimacy experienced during this dance. Otherwise I would
have to start dating every single girl I have danced with. Now that would be
extremely tiresome and maybe even bordering on ridiculous.
Cheers, Oleh K., responsibly
https://TangoSpring.com
20 days till Valentango
>From: "Deb Sclar" <deb@danceoftheheart.com>
>To: "Oleh Kovalchuke" <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>,<TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>Subject: RE: [TANGO-L] Tango - intimacy without responsibility
>Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:04:53 -0700
>
>"intimacy without responsibility"
>
>This statement is SCARY and verging on the RIDICULOUS! I PROFOUNDLY
>disagree - here's why.
>
>Followers are asked, as part of THEIR role and RESPONSIBILITY to their
>LEADERS in this dance, to surrender their will and decision-making about
>the
>when and where of each step, weight change and pivot. This is NO small
>feat - in fact, it's an ENORMOUS demand requiring one HELLUVA lot of
>practice to pull off mechanically. Emotionally and intellectually, it's
>even
>MORE complicated, requiring a HELLUVA lot of maturity, deep personal
>understanding, trust and confidence (in ourselves, our sense of musicality
>and last but HARDLY least, trust and confidence in our leaders)! So ladies
>(and those gentlemen that may agree with my perspective), I apologise,
>because of course I'm articulating this VERY simplistically and only
>touching on the tip of this vast iceberg!!!
>
>For those who feel tango DOES offer "intimacy without responsibility," here
>is my question to you: is not the leader RESPONSIBLE for his/her followers'
>safety, AT MINIMUM???? Does not the fact that followers, in the act of
>surrender to our leader/s in the dance, merit their protection and
>appreciation, care and COMPLETE attention??!?!!? In point of fact, leaders
>-
>your willingness to be responsible for each follower in EVERY dance,
>regardless of the level or quality of intimacy achieved, is not really up
>for grabs AT ALL. It simply comes with the territory, no?!?!!?
>
>In fact, there is an exchange of responsibility taking place in tango that
>makes this "intimacy without responsibility" statement absolutely
>ludicrous.
>I believe EACH dancer (BOTH roles) accepts MULTIPLE responsibilities, not
>only to each partner (AND the dance floor AND other dancers in the room AND
>the music AND AND AND AND etc.), but to themselves. In accepting these
>responsibilities, we clear the way when we take another human being in our
>arms, to make this dance possible, safe, pleasurable, etc. Beyond that,
>it's
>my conviction that, when these myriad and multi-layered responsibilities
>are
>understood and fully embraced (pun intended, CLARO), it is then we create
>the possibility to achieve the magic we all crave - those inexplicable,
>heavenly dances we remember for a life time, that keep us all coming back
>to
>tango again and again and again.
>
>Just an opinion.
>
>Deb Sclar
>www.danceoftheheart.com
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
>[mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Oleh Kovalchuke
>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:26 PM
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango - intimacy without responsibility
>
>
>There was an interesting discussion on roots and nature of the dance couple
>weeks ago. I was too busy to participate at the time trying to figure out
>if
>I should take couple months of vacation in BsAs or not. But I did read.
>
>What I got from the discussion is basically that tango is intimacy without
>responsibility and I agree with this definition of the dance
>wholeheartedly.
>It was so at the beginning of the dance nostalgically mourned by Astrid in
>Japan
>(https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06335.html) and Tine in
>Yale (https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06336.html, oh, the
>frustrations of emancipation) and this is even more so in the contemporary,
>alienated society (Ecsedy Aron,
>https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06315.html), why bash
>western society though? Alienation is common throughout contemporary
>world).
>
>No wonder that organizations interested in promotion of only one kind of
>intimacy, the one which is institutionalized in marriage only (church,
>state, bourgeois moralizers
>https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06334.html) oppose(d) the
>dance so fervently.
>
>Cheers, Oleh K.
>https://TangoSpring.com
>
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:59:25 -0800
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
I think there a lot of different levels to examine the
"intimacy without responsibility" phrase. What I
thought of when I first read it was "intimacy without
responsibility for a continuing relationship after the
tanda or milonga". Maybe it's a guy thing. I fully
agree with Deb's interpretation as well, on a more
internal level than when I first saw the phrase. Very
nice explanation, Deb!!
Larry in Cleveland
--- Deb Sclar <deb@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM> wrote:
> "intimacy without responsibility"
>
> This statement is SCARY and verging on the
> RIDICULOUS! I PROFOUNDLY
> disagree - here's why.
>
> Followers are asked, as part of THEIR role and
> RESPONSIBILITY to their
> LEADERS in this dance, to surrender their will and
> decision-making about the
> when and where of each step, weight change and
> pivot. This is NO small
> feat - in fact, it's an ENORMOUS demand requiring
> one HELLUVA lot of
> practice to pull off mechanically. Emotionally and
> intellectually, it's even
> MORE complicated, requiring a HELLUVA lot of
> maturity, deep personal
> understanding, trust and confidence (in ourselves,
> our sense of musicality
> and last but HARDLY least, trust and confidence in
> our leaders)! So ladies
> (and those gentlemen that may agree with my
> perspective), I apologise,
> because of course I'm articulating this VERY
> simplistically and only
> touching on the tip of this vast iceberg!!!
>
> For those who feel tango DOES offer "intimacy
> without responsibility," here
> is my question to you: is not the leader RESPONSIBLE
> for his/her followers'
> safety, AT MINIMUM???? Does not the fact that
> followers, in the act of
> surrender to our leader/s in the dance, merit their
> protection and
> appreciation, care and COMPLETE attention??!?!!? In
> point of fact, leaders -
> your willingness to be responsible for each follower
> in EVERY dance,
> regardless of the level or quality of intimacy
> achieved, is not really up
> for grabs AT ALL. It simply comes with the
> territory, no?!?!!?
>
> In fact, there is an exchange of responsibility
> taking place in tango that
> makes this "intimacy without responsibility"
> statement absolutely ludicrous.
> I believe EACH dancer (BOTH roles) accepts MULTIPLE
> responsibilities, not
> only to each partner (AND the dance floor AND other
> dancers in the room AND
> the music AND AND AND AND etc.), but to themselves.
> In accepting these
> responsibilities, we clear the way when we take
> another human being in our
> arms, to make this dance possible, safe,
> pleasurable, etc. Beyond that, it's
> my conviction that, when these myriad and
> multi-layered responsibilities are
> understood and fully embraced (pun intended, CLARO),
> it is then we create
> the possibility to achieve the magic we all crave -
> those inexplicable,
> heavenly dances we remember for a life time, that
> keep us all coming back to
> tango again and again and again.
>
> Just an opinion.
>
> Deb Sclar
> www.danceoftheheart.com
>
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:18:53 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Hi Deb, I absolutely agree with you, and I think almost dancers will as
well -- when two people dance on the floor there is an absolute
responsibility to everyone on the floor as well as to each other (not
to mention a responsibility to the "spirit" of the dance which some
dancers might take more seriously than others...).
I took this "intimacy without responsibility" comment along the same
lines as the thought that tango is the "best safe sex there is" . :-)!!
Deb Sclar wrote:
>This statement is SCARY and verging on the RIDICULOUS! I PROFOUNDLY
>disagree - here's why.
>
>Followers are asked, as part of THEIR role and RESPONSIBILITY to their
>LEADERS in this dance, to surrender their will and decision-making about the
>when and where of each step, weight change and pivot. This is NO small
>feat - in fact, it's an ENORMOUS demand requiring one HELLUVA lot of
>practice to pull off mechanically. Emotionally and intellectually, it's even
>MORE complicated, requiring a HELLUVA lot of maturity, deep personal
>understanding, trust and confidence (in ourselves, our sense of musicality
>and last but HARDLY least, trust and confidence in our leaders)! So ladies
>(and those gentlemen that may agree with my perspective), I apologise,
>because of course I'm articulating this VERY simplistically and only
>touching on the tip of this vast iceberg!!!
>
>For those who feel tango DOES offer "intimacy without responsibility," here
>is my question to you: is not the leader RESPONSIBLE for his/her followers'
>safety, AT MINIMUM???? Does not the fact that followers, in the act of
>surrender to our leader/s in the dance, merit their protection and
>appreciation, care and COMPLETE attention??!?!!? In point of fact, leaders -
>your willingness to be responsible for each follower in EVERY dance,
>regardless of the level or quality of intimacy achieved, is not really up
>for grabs AT ALL. It simply comes with the territory, no?!?!!?
>
>In fact, there is an exchange of responsibility taking place in tango that
>makes this "intimacy without responsibility" statement absolutely ludicrous.
>I believe EACH dancer (BOTH roles) accepts MULTIPLE responsibilities, not
>only to each partner (AND the dance floor AND other dancers in the room AND
>the music AND AND AND AND etc.), but to themselves. In accepting these
>responsibilities, we clear the way when we take another human being in our
>arms, to make this dance possible, safe, pleasurable, etc. Beyond that, it's
>my conviction that, when these myriad and multi-layered responsibilities are
>understood and fully embraced (pun intended, CLARO), it is then we create
>the possibility to achieve the magic we all crave - those inexplicable,
>heavenly dances we remember for a life time, that keep us all coming back to
>tango again and again and again.
>
>Just an opinion.
>
>Deb Sclar
>www.danceoftheheart.com
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
>[mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Oleh Kovalchuke
>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:26 PM
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango - intimacy without responsibility
>
>
>There was an interesting discussion on roots and nature of the dance couple
>weeks ago. I was too busy to participate at the time trying to figure out if
>I should take couple months of vacation in BsAs or not. But I did read.
>
>What I got from the discussion is basically that tango is intimacy without
>responsibility and I agree with this definition of the dance wholeheartedly.
>It was so at the beginning of the dance nostalgically mourned by Astrid in
>Japan
>(https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06335.html) and Tine in
>Yale (https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06336.html, oh, the
>frustrations of emancipation) and this is even more so in the contemporary,
>alienated society (Ecsedy Aron,
>https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06315.html), why bash
>western society though? Alienation is common throughout contemporary world).
>
>No wonder that organizations interested in promotion of only one kind of
>intimacy, the one which is institutionalized in marriage only (church,
>state, bourgeois moralizers
>https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06334.html) oppose(d) the
>dance so fervently.
>
>Cheers, Oleh K.
>https://TangoSpring.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:21:56 -0800
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Deb, may be you interpreted "intimacy without responsibility" in a different context. The dancers have all the responsibilities you noted and more.
Perhaps one does not have "responsibilities"/expectations after the dance, in the sense that its all over once the dance is finished.
Perhaps this better phrased "Intimacy without attachement" or "Love without attachent"
Deb Sclar <deb@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM> wrote:
"intimacy without responsibility"
This statement is SCARY and verging on the RIDICULOUS! I PROFOUNDLY
disagree - here's why.
Followers are asked, as part of THEIR role and RESPONSIBILITY to their
LEADERS in this dance, to surrender their will and decision-making about the
when and where of each step, weight change and pivot. This is NO small
feat - in fact, it's an ENORMOUS demand requiring one HELLUVA lot of
practice to pull off mechanically. Emotionally and intellectually, it's even
MORE complicated, requiring a HELLUVA lot of maturity, deep personal
understanding, trust and confidence (in ourselves, our sense of musicality
and last but HARDLY least, trust and confidence in our leaders)! So ladies
(and those gentlemen that may agree with my perspective), I apologise,
because of course I'm articulating this VERY simplistically and only
touching on the tip of this vast iceberg!!!
For those who feel tango DOES offer "intimacy without responsibility," here
is my question to you: is not the leader RESPONSIBLE for his/her followers'
safety, AT MINIMUM???? Does not the fact that followers, in the act of
surrender to our leader/s in the dance, merit their protection and
appreciation, care and COMPLETE attention??!?!!? In point of fact, leaders -
your willingness to be responsible for each follower in EVERY dance,
regardless of the level or quality of intimacy achieved, is not really up
for grabs AT ALL. It simply comes with the territory, no?!?!!?
In fact, there is an exchange of responsibility taking place in tango that
makes this "intimacy without responsibility" statement absolutely ludicrous.
I believe EACH dancer (BOTH roles) accepts MULTIPLE responsibilities, not
only to each partner (AND the dance floor AND other dancers in the room AND
the music AND AND AND AND etc.), but to themselves. In accepting these
responsibilities, we clear the way when we take another human being in our
arms, to make this dance possible, safe, pleasurable, etc. Beyond that, it's
my conviction that, when these myriad and multi-layered responsibilities are
understood and fully embraced (pun intended, CLARO), it is then we create
the possibility to achieve the magic we all crave - those inexplicable,
heavenly dances we remember for a life time, that keep us all coming back to
tango again and again and again.
Just an opinion.
Deb Sclar
www.danceoftheheart.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:26 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango - intimacy without responsibility
There was an interesting discussion on roots and nature of the dance couple
weeks ago. I was too busy to participate at the time trying to figure out if
I should take couple months of vacation in BsAs or not. But I did read.
What I got from the discussion is basically that tango is intimacy without
responsibility and I agree with this definition of the dance wholeheartedly.
It was so at the beginning of the dance nostalgically mourned by Astrid in
Japan
(https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06335.html) and Tine in
Yale (https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06336.html, oh, the
frustrations of emancipation) and this is even more so in the contemporary,
alienated society (Ecsedy Aron,
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06315.html), why bash
western society though? Alienation is common throughout contemporary world).
No wonder that organizations interested in promotion of only one kind of
intimacy, the one which is institutionalized in marriage only (church,
state, bourgeois moralizers
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg06334.html) oppose(d) the
dance so fervently.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:55:16 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Tango as intimacy without the responsibility seems like an outsider's
perspective to me.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:32:44 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Actually, it is more like an insider's perspective... Of course, the way you
concieve this is largely dependant on your definitions...and even more on
your beliefs...
"intimacy w/o responsibility" are my words. I meant them as most of you
interpreted it: people who choose tango because it means intimacy to them,
make this choice because of a good reason. The proverbial "normal" people
would go on and have this intimacy WITHIN a relationship (caps lock
time...yes...), however our proverbial tango dancer founds this intimacy in
tango instead of a one person. There you go. Why is that? You probably can't
list a "politically correct" reason there. However, the fact is that tango
gives you an opportunity to steal those "moments", instead of playing the
Black Jack game of proper relationships. Of course, I didn't mean that tango
is a replacement for real close relationships. But it is a valuable
accessory...
BTW: Insider/outsider - I was (am) a dancer for 12 years now. Most of my
relationships were dancers, and then some who weren't. In Hungary the
dancing community is really small. So we are pretty inbred... For this
reason I know an awful lot about relationships within this context. Why
dance-addicts choose this or that kind of person, attribute, etc. Of course,
generalizations are false, however there is always truth in them. One thing
I am sure of: people who choose dancing (no matter what kind of) are always
injured one way or the other. They seek something what they find in dancing
(to counterbalance this injury). This can be extrovertedness (being in the
center, being taken care of), or companionship (intimacy is a higher
"degree" of companionship), it can be the converging community (same values
- or - same age - or - same interest - or whatever our dancer can
identify...), or really any other aspect this community or dancing itself
(within the greater context of society) can provide.
I can't argue with beliefs, so please consider everything I say as my
personal opinion (even though if it is an informed opinion, with a great
deal of scientific literature behind it) and also my experience.
Cheers,
Aron
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Brown
> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 11:55 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango - intimacy without responsibility
>
> Tango as intimacy without the responsibility seems like an
> outsider's perspective to me.
>
> --Steve (de Tejas)
>
> ---------
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to Tango-A
> rather than to Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
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> Lastname" to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> ---------
>
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:28:51 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Steve (de Tejas) gave his, insider perspective on tango intimacy:
>Tango as intimacy without the responsibility seems like an
>outsider's perspective to me.
Here is my, insider perspective: there is dancing and then there is dating.
These two things are not incompatible, might happen simultenuously or lead
to each other yet they are very different and personally I have no confusion
about the two.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> > [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Brown
> > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 11:55 PM
> > To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango - intimacy without responsibility
> >
> > Tango as intimacy without the responsibility seems like an
> > outsider's perspective to me.
> >
> > --Steve (de Tejas)
> >
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:22:05 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
> Followers are asked, as part of THEIR role and RESPONSIBILITY to their
> LEADERS in this dance, to surrender their will and decision-making about
the
> when and where of each step, weight change and pivot. This is NO small
> feat - in fact, it's an ENORMOUS demand requiring one HELLUVA lot of
> practice to pull off mechanically. Emotionally and intellectually, it's
even
> MORE complicated, requiring a HELLUVA lot of maturity, deep personal
> understanding, trust and confidence (in ourselves, our sense of musicality
> and last but HARDLY least, trust and confidence in our leaders)!
Dear Deb,
I know perfectly well what you are talking about, Deb. After years of being
educated to take care of myself, after growing up surrounded by men who
appreciated women's lib in the way that they loved the new possibilities for
"intimacy without responsibility", after being asked by numbers of people to
"choose my own path", "take responsibility for myself", "express my
individuality", etc.etc.etc., here comes Tango, and suddenly, we are back in
the Fifties. Accompanied by the wise words of Ezequiel Farfaro, my first
teacher in private lessons, years younger than me, who danced with me and
told me very seriously:"Remember that you are a woman. Women don't think !"
After grabbling with this mind boggling feat for a while (I am not saying,
that Ezequiel did not make me smile), I felt like I had started to cope with
these new conditions of being. Along comes Alejandro after a year or so,
even younger than Ezequiel, who tells me during a lesson, with an innocent
smile:"I think, the reason you love tango is because you want to be more
like a woman." "I beg your pardon?" "You see, women follow all the time. You
sometimes still try to do your own things. But Japanese girls, they have no
problem with this at all. They are great." "Really?", I asked, looking
around at the expressionless young ladies in the studio, who had started
dancing 6 or more months later than me. "Yes, they just go where the wind
takes them."
Later, I spoke to my German boss about this, who had started dancing tango
too, after I introduced him. He replied wryly:"Oh, yeah, SUURE. When I am
dancing with that one over there, I feel like I am holding a rag doll in my
arms. She follows, alright, but she never initiates anything on her own."
So, girls, learn to walk the tight rope between following thoughtlessly, and
being interesting at the same time.
Now, for the men, the problem is a different one. I have seen many young men
jump at the chance to go back to the Fifties, to become what they think is a
real macho. But I have observed that especially those with the macho fantasy
regard tango as an outlet for their personal hangups, a place where they can
order women around shamelessly, where they can dump them right after
embracing, and replace them with new supplies, where they can strut cockily
along the benches and imperiously point to one of the eagerly waiting ladies
to follow them onto the dance floor.
I feel, that here exists a severe misunderstanding of it means to be "macho"
in Argentina.
Read what Deb said:
> For those who feel tango DOES offer "intimacy without responsibility,"
here
> is my question to you: is not the leader RESPONSIBLE for his/her
followers'
> safety, AT MINIMUM???? Does not the fact that followers, in the act of
> surrender to our leader/s in the dance, merit their protection and
> appreciation, care and COMPLETE attention??!?!!? In point of fact,
leaders -
> your willingness to be responsible for each follower in EVERY dance,
> regardless of the level or quality of intimacy achieved, is not really up
> for grabs AT ALL. It simply comes with the territory, no?!?!!?
I think, she is right. This used to be the case in those days when women
were not allowed to take care of themselves. They had to follow a man, yes,
be demure, obliging, modest, submissive, sweet and pliable, but it was the
man's job to take care of them. Whether this was accompanied by chivalry or
not, depends on the culture, in Japan rather not, in Europe yes, but
everywhere, the man was (and still is, in a way) responsible for the woman's
safety.
To want only the fun, ego-enhancing bits without the responsibility is
childish behaviour.
This much as far as fantasizing about could-be and may-have-been goes.
Happy tangos to all
tongue in cheek
Astrid
>
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:18:41 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Dear Oleh, Astrid, Deb and the List,
There is a common mistake here: we were talking about the feeling of
intimacy (closeness, openness etc.), and not about having sex or even having
romantic feelings towards a person.
I was talking about intimacy (having someone close) for a dance, without the
need to go through all the stuff that is NORMALLY necessary to get to
someone so close (Experiment: just try to grab someone on the street or even
one of your colleagues and try to "experience" this feeling with
her/him...). Actually, I consider it a "simulation" of the thing you
normally develop in "real" close relationships for the few minutes of the
dance.
People actually (at least believe) that they are experiencing intimacy for
this period, which is not continued in time (and consequently) or in other
areas of your life. I used the definition "intimacy without responsibility"
to summarize this process (to have this dance with the feeling but no
prerequisites or later implications) . Please note, I was NOT using the word
IRresponsibility, which means something different.
Aron
> Steve (de Tejas) gave his, insider perspective on tango intimacy:
>
> >Tango as intimacy without the responsibility seems like an
> outsider's
> >perspective to me.
>
> Here is my, insider perspective: there is dancing and then
> there is dating.
> These two things are not incompatible, might happen
> simultenuously or lead to each other yet they are very
> different and personally I have no confusion about the two.
>
> Cheers, Oleh K.
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:31:36 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
> Dear Oleh, Astrid, Deb and the List,
>
> There is a common mistake here: we were talking about the feeling of
> intimacy (closeness, openness etc.), and not about having sex or even
having
> romantic feelings towards a person.
>
Aron, actually, for all I know, we were talking about tango. About the
difference between an egotistic dancer, and one who takes care of and feels
responsible for the woman he is dancing with. During the dance.
Astrid
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:21:34 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Deb:
I do not agree with your statement "Followers are asked, as part of THEIR role and RESPONSIBILITY to their LEADERS in this dance, to =
surrender their will and decision-making about the when and where of each step, weight change and pivot." My interpretation of this statement =
is that the follower is completely passive and has absolutely NO FREEDOM at all to deviate from the lead.
I've danced with followers who put in an embellishment without interfering with my lead, such as a tap on the floor before stepping =
with the foot. Then there's the whole issue of interleading. There is only ONE teacher I know who even talks about it and that's Virginia =
Kelly (www.VirginiaKelly.com) who resides in New York. I've danced with a few women who decided to take the lead so as to give themselves more =
time or opportunity for an embellishment. I've had women drag my foot after a stepover or sweep my foot after I swept their foot. To me, the =
dance is constant conversation, a DIALOGUE, not a MONOLOGUE. Even when the man is leading a stepover, the woman can take the opportunity to =
embellish the stepover before stepping over the man's foot.
I'm concerned over the word "surrender." To me, surrender means giving up all control, being completely passive. Part of the problem is that =
some men see leading like Tarzan of the jungle. "Me Tarzan, You Jane." In terms of dance "Me, leader; You, follower." I see this as a control =
issue. Men are notorious for having control issues. I used to have one that predates dancing by decades. (Don't even think of asking how =
many!!) If everything didn't go EXACTLY the way I planned it, I felt chaos, as if the earth was spinning out of its orbit.
Tango is a dance of equality. Just because a woman follows, it doesn't mean she has given up any of her rights as a dancer.
Michael Ditkoff
Six more months to the NY Tango Festival and Virginia's Interleading Class
Come on Spring. Hope the groundhog doesn't see his shadow next week
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:21:04 -0800
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Michael Ditkoff said:
> Tango is a dance of equality. Just because a woman
> follows, it doesn't mean she has given up any of her
> rights as a dancer.
It is interesting to me how people choose to
understand their roles and relationship to one another
within tango.
To the women that say they have perceived following to
be like stepping back in time to a gender role they no
longer embrace in their normal life, consider this:
Tango does not create the role we choose, we create
our role in tango. Dancing is two people meeting on a
dance floor expressing themselves to one another
through music and movement. It is mutual and
consensual and no two people will express themselves
in the same way.
The mechanics of two bodies moving together require
that one person take the lead. Just like when you
carry a couch up a flight of stairs with one person
holding each end. If you don't want the couch to fall
you have to work together and coordinate your movement
(okay maybe not the most elegant analogy but it kind
of works). Beyond that though I think it is really up
to the two people involved how they choose to engender
their roles. Different people have different
preferences. Some people enjoy being passive, some
people enjoy being in charge, some people enjoy being
equal with their partner, some people enjoy competing
with their partner, some people click and some don't.
It is a subtle negotiation I think. And it is mostly
about how you physically communicate with your partner
from moment to moment.
Men who take advantage of their roles as leaders and
women who feel defensive about being lead only do so
out of their own insecurities.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:22:51 -0700
From: Deb Sclar <deb@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Hola Michael,
Thanks for continuing this discussion...I wish I had time to answer all of
the fascinating threads you raise based on your personal experience, but in
the interests of time, I'll confine myself to your interpretation of my
statement. It's your choice, of course, to interpret my meaning as you
describe below, but we actually don't disagree here. Please note I wrote
NOTHING indicating the follower had "NO FREEDOM" or "...is completely
passive."
What I wrote was: "...surrender their will and decision-making ABOUT THE
WHEN AND WHERE of each step, weight change and pivot." This does not include
HOW - the lovely, delicious, infinite HOW is every follower's magic dust -
how a follower chooses to move in accepting the leaders' invitation contains
worlds of rich opportunities and vast, countless choices to express, engage,
communicate, adorn, etc.
As for surrender, I know this word can be a "negative" trigger for most of
us. But I suggest that surrendering is NOT a shameful or weak choice or an
eraser of character or personality (nor is it ONLY in the domain of the
follower - surrender, like "control issues" are NOT gender specific!). Quite
the contrary, I believe 'surrendering' has PROFOUND power and depth for BOTH
lead and follow. Furthermore, individuals with the courage, passion and
willingness to explore and to engage themselves and their partners on this
level, have access to deeper and richer self-expression in the dance (that
goes for just about any relationship/encounter in life). Based on my
experience, surrendering to FULLY and HONESTLY connect with the moment, with
self, the music, ones' partner, etc., is the antithesis of passivity, no
freedom, lack of expression, etc.
Hoping that clarifies!
Deb Sclar
www.danceoftheheart.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 11:22 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Deb:
I do not agree with your statement "Followers are asked, as part of THEIR
role and RESPONSIBILITY to their LEADERS in this dance, to surrender their
will and decision-making about the when and where of each step, weight
change and pivot." My interpretation of this statement is that the follower
is completely passive and has absolutely NO FREEDOM at all to deviate from
the lead.
I've danced with followers who put in an embellishment without interfering
with my lead, such as a tap on the floor before stepping with the foot. Then
there's the whole issue of interleading. There is only ONE teacher I know
who even talks about it and that's Virginia Kelly (www.VirginiaKelly.com)
who resides in New York. I've danced with a few women who decided to take
the lead so as to give themselves more time or opportunity for an
embellishment. I've had women drag my foot after a stepover or sweep my foot
after I swept their foot. To me, the dance is constant conversation, a
DIALOGUE, not a MONOLOGUE. Even when the man is leading a stepover, the
woman can take the opportunity to embellish the stepover before stepping
over the man's foot.
I'm concerned over the word "surrender." To me, surrender means giving up
all control, being completely passive. Part of the problem is that some men
see leading like Tarzan of the jungle. "Me Tarzan, You Jane." In terms of
dance "Me, leader; You, follower." I see this as a control issue. Men are
notorious for having control issues. I used to have one that predates
dancing by decades. (Don't even think of asking how many!!) If everything
didn't go EXACTLY the way I planned it, I felt chaos, as if the earth was
spinning out of its orbit.
Tango is a dance of equality. Just because a woman follows, it doesn't mean
she has given up any of her rights as a dancer.
Michael Ditkoff
Six more months to the NY Tango Festival and Virginia's Interleading Class
Come on Spring. Hope the groundhog doesn't see his shadow next week
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:54:23 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Rosa,
Well said.
Carlos Rojas
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 11:21 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango - intimacy without responsibility
Michael Ditkoff said:
> Tango is a dance of equality. Just because a woman
> follows, it doesn't mean she has given up any of her
> rights as a dancer.
It is interesting to me how people choose to
understand their roles and relationship to one another
within tango.
To the women that say they have perceived following to
be like stepping back in time to a gender role they no
longer embrace in their normal life, consider this:
Tango does not create the role we choose, we create
our role in tango. Dancing is two people meeting on a
dance floor expressing themselves to one another
through music and movement. It is mutual and
consensual and no two people will express themselves
in the same way.
The mechanics of two bodies moving together require
that one person take the lead. Just like when you
carry a couch up a flight of stairs with one person
holding each end. If you don't want the couch to fall
you have to work together and coordinate your movement
(okay maybe not the most elegant analogy but it kind
of works). Beyond that though I think it is really up
to the two people involved how they choose to engender
their roles. Different people have different
preferences. Some people enjoy being passive, some
people enjoy being in charge, some people enjoy being
equal with their partner, some people enjoy competing
with their partner, some people click and some don't.
It is a subtle negotiation I think. And it is mostly
about how you physically communicate with your partner
from moment to moment.
Men who take advantage of their roles as leaders and
women who feel defensive about being lead only do so
out of their own insecurities.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:57:11 -0800
From: obscure bardo <obscurebardo@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango - intimacy without responsibility
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:22:51 -0700, Deb Sclar <deb@danceoftheheart.com> wrote:
Deb,
You put this so well:
> As for surrender, I know this word can be a "negative" trigger for most of
> us. But I suggest that surrendering is NOT a shameful or weak choice or an
> eraser of character or personality ...
> the contrary, I believe 'surrendering' has PROFOUND power and depth for BOTH
> lead and follow. Furthermore, individuals with the courage, passion and
> willingness to explore and to engage themselves and their partners on this
> level, have access to deeper and richer self-expression in the dance (that
> goes for just about any relationship/encounter in life). Based on my
> experience, surrendering to FULLY and HONESTLY connect with the moment, with
> self, the music, ones' partner, etc., is the antithesis of passivity, no
> freedom, lack of expression, etc.
My reading of Tim Galwey's books on the Inner Game of Tennis and
Skiing has led me to understand this as a classic choice between what
he terms Self 1 and Self 2. I think of Self 1 as the deliberate ego
and Self 2 as the total organism. The surrender of the deliberate ego
to the greater brain and the allowing the total organism to function
is how I understand what you are describing. Things emerge that can
not be deliberately created but the power of that creativity can be
threatening to the deliberate ego's need to feel in control.
Abandonment of the well rehearsed known to allow the creative
improvisation to emerge revealing ourselves to our consciousness can
be richly rewarding or threatening depending on conditions.
Thank you for so beautifully expressing this,
Jonathan Thornton
