3612 Tango lies
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 03:27:46 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango lies
Chistopher says:
Carlos is thought of dancing Milonguero style but he claims that he dances
Salon.
"Carlos does have a highly rhythmic style, and he dances
in a very
tightly connected way, but he uses many figures people might regard
as not in the "milonguero" vocabulary: ochos with pivots, barridas,
paradas, and back sacadas to name a few. Also, I think he would
consider apilado style limiting. Many people might feel surprised
to see how just little space he needs, and that he can and will do
almost anything in double-time and syncopa as the music calls for. "
He certainly dances Salon close embrace.
As to dancing in Buenos Aires. If you know how to dance close embrace and
know how to navigate the floor, you should have no problem dancing in most
places.
Let's assume that you dance Milonguero Style (like Susana Miller) and go
dancing to a crowded milonga were people dance Salon Close embrace. You ask
a lady to dance and she will follow you with no problem. She may not do an
Ocho cortado, and when you lead one , she will pivot her feet and hip and
cross front (this will not disturb your dance). You may walk in some
rhythmic ways that she is not used to but she will follow if you are a good
leader. if you are a woman dancing (milonguero dancer) and go to such a
place you will have no problem following a leader of close salon.
If you are a salon dancer and go to a milonguero club, the ladies will
follow you but they may not want to dance with you again. If you are a lady
and do not know how to dance apilado and do an ocho cortado, the men will
not ask again for dances.
If you go to a Nuevo tango place and you do not dance that way, they will
not ask you to dance.
If you go with some of your friends you will be able to dance in any place.
I wish to make clear that Milonguero Style is well known in Buenos Aires and
it is danced in many places. When you go dancing in other Argentinean
cities most people do not know milonguero, they will dance Salon close
embrace or open embrace or combining the embraces as needed.
Good night, Sergio.
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 00:14:11 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango lies
Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> Chistopher says:
>
> Carlos is thought of dancing Milonguero style but he claims that he
> dances
> Salon.
Just to be clear: some people think he dances milonguero, not everyone.
> "Carlos does have a highly rhythmic style, and he dances in a very
> tightly connected way, but he uses many figures people might regard
> as not in the "milonguero" vocabulary: ochos with pivots, barridas,
> paradas, and back sacadas to name a few. Also, I think he would
> consider apilado style limiting. Many people might feel surprised
> to see how just little space he needs, and that he can and will do
> almost anything in double-time and syncopa as the music calls for. "
>
> He certainly dances Salon close embrace.
Agreed, and he would say so as well.
> As to dancing in Buenos Aires. If you know how to dance close embrace and
> know how to navigate the floor, you should have no problem dancing in
> most
> places.
That's good news. I can't wait.
> Let's assume that you dance Milonguero Style (like Susana Miller) and go
> dancing to a crowded milonga were people dance Salon Close embrace.
On further thought, my observation of Susanna Miller is that she
certainly teaches a somewhat elastic embrace, where the contact
point shifts as needed, and could at certain points go away.
How else can one lead giros con sacadas as she teaches?
Another notion she's put forth in both workshops of hers that I've
attended is the idea of leading the woman around yourself until she
ends up almost behind you, as in the context of a half-turn then
"snapping back" rhythmically. Interestingly, Carlos was the first
teacher that ever told me such a thing could be done.
Also, Susanna categorically stated during the St. Louis workshop
that milongueros of Buenos Aires don't exclusively use a chest
lead, that they do in fact use a hand lead as the situation (ie,
the woman's comfort) demands.
So, I'm confused. The idea of "milonguero style" seems increasingly
like a distinction without a difference to me. One could certainly
say that Susanna Miller teaches a highly distinctive style of salon
tango, and be correct.
All of this begs the question: what defines milonguero style tango?
<snip to end>
--
Christopher L. Everett
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:45:45 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Cults vs Friends Re: [TANGO-L] Tango lies
Dear Christopher:
I personally do not really think that Milongero Style
exists at all. It is just a watered down, easy to do
version of tango, for export. It is mostly marketing
BS. What I do see in the so called milongero dancers
as a group is a certain inflexibility and dogma. To
me they seem to me to want to preach a religion
instead of dance a dance, and like any good religion,
anyone who does not conform to their BS is damned and
sent to hell.... To me this totally against the
social nature of the dance and it is also quite
boring. Cults must dance with their own. There is
only room for converts, never room for friends. My
opinion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
wrote:
> Sergio Vandekier wrote:
>
> > Chistopher says:
> >
> > Carlos is thought of dancing Milonguero style but
> he claims that he
> > dances
> > Salon.
>
> Just to be clear: some people think he dances
> milonguero, not everyone.
>
> > "Carlos does have a highly rhythmic style, and he
> dances in a very
> > tightly connected way, but he uses many figures
> people might regard
> > as not in the "milonguero" vocabulary: ochos with
> pivots, barridas,
> > paradas, and back sacadas to name a few. Also, I
> think he would
> > consider apilado style limiting. Many people
> might feel surprised
> > to see how just little space he needs, and that he
> can and will do
> > almost anything in double-time and syncopa as the
> music calls for. "
> >
> > He certainly dances Salon close embrace.
>
> Agreed, and he would say so as well.
>
> > As to dancing in Buenos Aires. If you know how to
> dance close embrace and
> > know how to navigate the floor, you should have no
> problem dancing in
> > most
> > places.
>
> That's good news. I can't wait.
>
> > Let's assume that you dance Milonguero Style (like
> Susana Miller) and go
> > dancing to a crowded milonga were people dance
> Salon Close embrace.
>
> On further thought, my observation of Susanna Miller
> is that she
> certainly teaches a somewhat elastic embrace, where
> the contact
> point shifts as needed, and could at certain points
> go away.
>
> How else can one lead giros con sacadas as she
> teaches?
>
> Another notion she's put forth in both workshops of
> hers that I've
> attended is the idea of leading the woman around
> yourself until she
> ends up almost behind you, as in the context of a
> half-turn then
> "snapping back" rhythmically. Interestingly, Carlos
> was the first
> teacher that ever told me such a thing could be
> done.
>
> Also, Susanna categorically stated during the St.
> Louis workshop
> that milongueros of Buenos Aires don't exclusively
> use a chest
> lead, that they do in fact use a hand lead as the
> situation (ie,
> the woman's comfort) demands.
>
> So, I'm confused. The idea of "milonguero style"
> seems increasingly
> like a distinction without a difference to me. One
> could certainly
> say that Susanna Miller teaches a highly distinctive
> style of salon
> tango, and be correct.
>
> All of this begs the question: what defines
> milonguero style tango?
>
> <snip to end>
>
> --
> Christopher L. Everett
>
>
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:34:26 -0700
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango lies, mixing syles
Dear Sergei
you said,
>>>>
She may not do an Ocho cortado, and when you lead one , she will pivot her feet and hip
and cross front (this will not disturb your dance).
>>>>
I am not sure, but if she pivots back on her own it may disturb the dance ofcourse. This also implies she cannot be lead to perform a complete giro?.
I think if a Salon dancer cannot do a Ocho cortada, most probably she is not experienced... not because she dances a specific style ...or may be she is just not led correctly.
>>>
If you are a salon dancer and go to a milonguero club, the ladies will
follow you but they may not want to dance with you again
>>>
why?;) could you elaborate?
If the leader dances to music and she can follow , where is the problem. Is it because these old dancers are so "religious" about their style?.
IL
Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
Chistopher says:
Carlos is thought of dancing Milonguero style but he claims that he dances
Salon.
"Carlos does have a highly rhythmic style, and he dances
in a very
tightly connected way, but he uses many figures people might regard
as not in the "milonguero" vocabulary: ochos with pivots, barridas,
paradas, and back sacadas to name a few. Also, I think he would
consider apilado style limiting. Many people might feel surprised
to see how just little space he needs, and that he can and will do
almost anything in double-time and syncopa as the music calls for. "
He certainly dances Salon close embrace.
As to dancing in Buenos Aires. If you know how to dance close embrace and
know how to navigate the floor, you should have no problem dancing in most
places.
Let's assume that you dance Milonguero Style (like Susana Miller) and go
dancing to a crowded milonga were people dance Salon Close embrace. You ask
a lady to dance and she will follow you with no problem. She may not do an
Ocho cortado, and when you lead one , she will pivot her feet and hip and
cross front (this will not disturb your dance). You may walk in some
rhythmic ways that she is not used to but she will follow if you are a good
leader. if you are a woman dancing (milonguero dancer) and go to such a
place you will have no problem following a leader of close salon.
If you are a salon dancer and go to a milonguero club, the ladies will
follow you but they may not want to dance with you again. If you are a lady
and do not know how to dance apilado and do an ocho cortado, the men will
not ask again for dances.
If you go to a Nuevo tango place and you do not dance that way, they will
not ask you to dance.
If you go with some of your friends you will be able to dance in any place.
I wish to make clear that Milonguero Style is well known in Buenos Aires and
it is danced in many places. When you go dancing in other Argentinean
cities most people do not know milonguero, they will dance Salon close
embrace or open embrace or combining the embraces as needed.
Good night, Sergio.
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:31:32 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango lies, mixing styles
I said if you go dancing to a Salon Style place and try to do milonguero:
"She may not do an Ocho cortado, and when you lead one , she will pivot her
feet
and hip and cross front (this will not disturb your dance).
Iron Logic says
I am not sure, but if she pivots back on her own it may disturb the dance
of course. This also implies she cannot be lead to perform a complete giro?.
I think if a Salon dancer cannot do a Ocho cortada, most probably she is not
experienced... not because she dances a specific style ...or may be she is
just
not led correctly."
I assume that the dancer leads properly. some women are not used to doing
the Ocho cortado, when you lead one everything goes fine up to me moment you
bring her to your right and she opens but afterwards instead of crossing in
front while moving her hip to her left, she will pivot (slightly) pointing
in the direction where she is going and cross front moving the hip in the
usual way for salon. If this disturbs your dancing this will be minimal, as
you compensate and continue .
I normally find no problems with turns (giros) of any type.
the second question was:
If you are a salon dancer and go to a milonguero club, the ladies will
follow you but they may not want to dance with you again
>>>
why?;) could you elaborate?
If the leader dances to music and she can follow , where is the problem. Is
it
because these old dancers are so "religious" about their style?.
People have a preference with respect to the place where they go dancing,
the kind of music that they play in such a place and the tango style that is
danced there.
You have to assume that they came to a milonguero style club because they
like to dance in that way.
Most of the ladies and some of the men will not dance with people that come
there to dance in a different style.
This is logical. If you wish to dance Salon or Nuevo go to a place where
those styles are danced.
If you are a Salon dancer but wish to go to a particular club where
Milonguero is done, try to go to the lessons that are usually taught before
the milonga. This will familiarize you with the style and some of the
people.
Sergio
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:32:57 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Styles and physical sensitivities (was Tango Lies)
--- Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Sergio wrote
> >>>
> If you are a salon dancer and go to a milonguero
> club, the ladies will
> follow you but they may not want to dance with you
> again
> >>>
> why?;) could you elaborate?
> If the leader dances to music and she can follow ,
> where is the problem. Is it because these old
> dancers are so "religious" about their style?.
>
I really dislike the title :"Lies"
As one starts developing different styles, one's body
also develops real physical sensitivities - different
muscle memories. People chose to tango in a way that
fits with their body memory. Milonguero dancers are
used to smaller movements. Nuevo dancers are used to
bigger movements. etc.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:20:38 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: leading the woman behind you [...was Tango lies]
Change of subject to take off from something Chris said...
"Another notion she's [SusanaM] put forth ... is the idea of leading the
woman around yourself until she ends up almost behind you ...]
----------------------
This is an interesting concept. I took a class from somebody, don't remember
who, maybe Alex, who advised a similar technique to get tight turns, giros,
etc, from your follower is to lead with the mental intention of moving her
from in front of you to behind you. The mental focus on putting her behind
you has the effect of automatically fine-tuning the subtleties of your body
position to create a clear lead. It works.
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
