1847 Tango @ milongas: milonguero vs. salon (tango nuevo?)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:45:09 -0500
From: Riccardo Fanciulli <riccardo@PHYSICS.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Tango @ milongas: milonguero vs. salon (tango nuevo?)
Dear Tango-L,
Thanks for the many answers to my email about milonguero vs. salon style
at milongas.
I think I've seen some interesting comments and some others that seemed
not to really answer to the main point of my email, so I'd like to reply
and see if I can clarify what I meant.
First of all, some of you corrected me in the definition of the styles (it
would be long to report all those corrections). Well, as a general rule I
really didn't (and don't) care much for what name you give to what, if you
want to call what I had called "salon" "tango Nuevo" instead… fine with
me, if you don't think that Tete is a real milonguero… fine with me. Names
mean really little, but I was just trying to make all agree on the main
difference between two ways to interpret music (music that is often very
different too) and use that as a base to start my point.
Let's call style "A" what you would see dancing in a classic milonga in
Buenos Aires and style "B" what, not only is taught by a Naveira, but,
you'll have to admit it, by more and more instructors all over the world
(and I have a feeling that they are the majority by the way).
Maybe we could say that style "B" came after style "A" when 1) more and
more tango artists (stage dancers) discovered the possibility of earning
big money teaching and 2) they realized that people wanted to look like
them.
The special revival of Tango in the past 10-15 yrs has a lot to do (if not
all) with some important shows that (mostly) weren't showing what I call
style "A". The shows "Forever Tango", "Tango Argentino", the movies "The
Tango Lesson", "Tango" had a huge role in drawing new tango aficionados to
the dance floor. Or not?
Now, let's see if we can agree on these facts:
1) Style "A" and style "B" ARE different.
2) Instructors, in order to attract more people or to satisfy a demand
are teaching more and more style "B".
3) At milongas, the way they are structured right now (especially the
music choice and the space available) you can dance style "A" and, if
you're lucky, every two dances use ˝ a step from style "B".
From the feedback I received I see that I'm clearly not the only one
having noticed what I just stated.
Most of the comments that I received sounded like these though:
Robert Hauk wrote:
<<These questions aren't as hard to answer as this list makes them seem to
be. We are dancing Argentine tango after all. Airfares are not so high
now, and travel in Argentina is not so expensive. Now more than ever it
is possible to experience tango at the source. Go to Buenos Aires, sit
and watch, and learn. Dance among people who have danced for 40 - 50
years, and see what they do. Listen to the DJs at the milongas and see
what they play, and if you don't recognize the music ask people.>>
Stephen Brown wrote:
<<If the goal is to dance at milongas, that would leave many questioning
the value the of learning complicated figures.>>
Janis from Bs.As. wrote:
<<Much of the music of Pugliese isn't for the milonga, it's for listening.
Piazzolla isn't for dancing either. Would you dance to Gustav Mahler?>>
Now, you may agree or not with the single comment or the way they are
stated, but in them you can clearly perceive this sort of thinking...
"Go back to Buenos Aires and watch the people who have been dancing for 50
yrs and do like them (if you can)" AND "forget all that stuff many
instructors teach, for milongas it's useless".
Here is the concept: milongas are milongas and they cannot be in any
different way.
And here (finally!) comes my point. From the general facts that I tried to
enumerate above, the style "B" is getting more and more important out
there while the organizers of the milongas (which, in many cases are also
the instructors that will teach you a back sacada followed by a voleo to
start a giro con lapis and final barrida) are still thinking of the
milongas the way they were 50 yrs ago.
Here we are in front of a revolution to which most are taking part, but
nobody wants to acknowledge. As we say in Italy, "people are throwing
the stone and hiding their hand".
Now, since I like traditions and continuity, I don't want to say that
overnight the style of milongas should change, BUT every once in a while
we could organize "Nuevo tango Milongas" or call them "Style "B" Milongas"
where the participants know that they will find a certain kind of music
more suited for style "B" and they will expect that the concept of flow in
the line of dance can be a bit more loose and the entire floor can be
used. Of course, larger spaces could be used (not so easy maybe).
Also, at the "normal" milongas DJs could play some music for style "B"
every once in a while without the fear to enrage the classicists who will
never dance to this or that, because "that is tango for listening not for
dancing".
I may not have the right ideas on how to improve things.. that's why I was
asking for constructive feedback, but don't tell me that everything is
fine, because in your particular case all you want to do is dance to style
"A". Look around, go to workshops and see what is being taught.
People are taught "ballet" and told to go to the "disco".
Since people do like "ballet", why don't give them the possibility of
dancing it a little?
- Riccardo
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:16:28 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango @ milongas: milonguero vs. salon (tango nuevo?)
Riccardo wrote:
>Let's call style "A" what you would see dancing in a classic
>milonga in Buenos Aires and style "B" what, not only is taught
>by a Naveira, but, you'll have to admit it, by more and more
>instructors all over the world...
>Look around, go to workshops and see what is being taught.
>People are taught [style "B"] and told to [go dance style "B"].
>Since people do like [style B and the music that goes with it],
>why don't give them the possibility of dancing it a little?
Although I am not sure that there really is as much of a distinction
between style A and style B as these comments might lead us to believe, I
think Riccardo raises a fair question.
I am not aware of anyone preventing the organization of such style "B"
events. In fact, from my obervation of tango dancing in many parts of the
United States, I would argue that there are many events that are intended
for style "B" dancing. Tom Stermitz was considered a revolutionary just a
few years ago for organizing a national event that emphasized style "A"
dancing.
I think it is fair to recognize that style "B" dancing becomes increasing
difficult and problematic as the number of dancers in a given space
increases.
Given the constraints that density imposes on the style of dance, there
are many venues where style "A" and "B" dancing vary over the course of
the evening. At many milongas where the number of dancers drops toward
the end of the evening, some of the dancers who stay late begin dancing in
more elaborate ways, and quite often the dj accomodates the dancers by
switching to music that is consistent with the way they want to dance.
I also have been to a milonga numerous times in the San Francisco Bay Area
where it is crowded at the end but less crowded early in the evening. At
the beginning of the milonga, the dj plays more dramatic music, and the
dancers tend to execute elaborate figures. Later in the evening, when it
is more crowded, the dj switches to more rhythmic music and the dancers
tend to dance with smaller elements.
Given that density tends to prevent style "B" dancing, we should recognize
that pure style "B" events might be a bit more difficult to sustain
financially. The lower density required of a pure style "B" event
necessitates 50-75 percent lower attendance per square foot of dance
space. To the organizer that means less revenue from admissions and/or a
higher rental price. In addition, people tend to associate the success of
an event with its density, and a lack of density may lead to reduced
attendance in the future, which makes it easier to dance style "B" but
will make it increasingly difficult for the orgaizer to pay for the space.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:50:32 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango @ milongas: milonguero vs. salon (tango nuevo?)
Ricardo,
I think you have stated things well, as they are understood outside of
Buenos Aires. It is interesting to watch the master teachers, who teach
what you call style B, when they dance at a milonga. They dance what
they dance but in the manor of style A. The point is that it may only
seem like there is a style B and a style A. At a milonga there is a
time later in the night when there is more room on the floor, and then
Style B is possible. Earlier when the party is in full swing Style A is
what is possible. All the master teachers I have ever seen do it this
way. This is the way the younger generation, who are supposedly doing
'nuevo tango' do it in Buenos Aires. So in a sense I would argue that
style A and style B aren't all that different. If you are dancing at a
milonga you respect the other dancers, and the available space guides
your dance. That is social tango and it can be danced using any style
of tango.
As for music, if you associate style B with dancing to Piazzola and
Pugliese exclusively, then maybe you haven't seen enough performances by
the master teachers that are out there. They dance to everything. I
have seen them do performances to D'Arienzo, Calo, Di Sarli,
D'Agostino... Manuel's report of what Gustavo played at the milonga he
DJd is significant. I knew without having Manuel say it what kind of
music Gustavo would have played. He has been at this too long for it to
be different. For Gustavo there is no style A and style B, except to
say that there is a way you dance at a milonga, and a way you dance a
performance.
Only outside of Buenos Aires are people thinking that they are creating
a whole new tango. In Buenos Aires there is a strong tradition that is
very much alive. There are orchestras in Buenos Aires who are playing
very good dance music, and tango is alive. New things are happening
there informed by the history of tango. How can it be otherwise when
there are people there like Julio Balmaceda, whose father Miguel was a
milonguero and a teacher who strongly influenced a whole generation of
dancers?
I think we should pay attention to how things are done in Buenos Aires,
and if we are confused we should ask the master teachers about this.
When they are showing things that take a lot of space, ask them about
what you might be able to do when you are dancing on a crowded dance
floor. When they are using only the music of Pugliese maybe you could
ask how they would use the steps to other orchestras. I think they are
providing what they think the market wants. I think they would be
delighted to deal with these other things if only people would ask. You
should hear the kind of things they say about how people dance in this
country. When they sit around a table watching the dance floor at a big
festival they aren't always talking about the weather. Not only do we
not generally know about tango in Argentina, we don't seem to be
generally interested in knowing, and they do have feelings about this.
Let me give an analogy. Would you take someone seriously if they
claimed they knew a lot about blues music but weren't familiar with
Muddy Waters or John Lee Hooker? Tango is something we do for fun
(hopefully). To that end whatever you choose to do is fine, have fun!
However, there are a lot of people out there who are claiming to be
evolving tango, and justifying all kinds of things because, they say,
tango has to evolve. I wonder how long they have spent really knowing
tango, to be so qualified to be driving the evolution. The young people
in Buenos Aires who are evolving tango know where tango has been. To
continue my earlier analogy, you could say that Jimi Hendrix evolved the
blues and you would be right in a sense. If you get to know the music
of Muddy Waters and John Lee Hooker, and other old blues men you will
see thet there is a direct line between what Hendrix did and that older
generation. That evolution stuck, and the evidence is in the listening.
So again I will say it. Dance as much as you can, try all those steps
you have learned, dance them to death until you don't have to think
about what you are doing. After awhile the steps will be yours and they
won't look like anyone but you. They will be your tools to interpret
the music, and you will interpret any music you dance to. Dance your
miles and years. Your tango will become a deep and rich artistic
language that will be your expression of your feelings. Dance until
these questions are meaningless.
Happy years of tango to all,
Robert
Riccardo Fanciulli wrote:
>
> Dear Tango-L,
>
> Thanks for the many answers to my email about milonguero vs. salon style
> at milongas.
>
> I think I've seen some interesting comments and some others that seemed
> not to really answer to the main point of my email, so I'd like to reply
> and see if I can clarify what I meant.
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:09:10 -0400
From: white95r <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango @ milongas: milonguero vs. salon (tango nuevo?)
Hi Robert,
I like the way you and Brian Dunn have answered this question of "styles".
As you say:
> It is interesting to watch the master teachers, who teach
> what you call style B, when they dance at a milonga. They dance what
> they dance but in the manor of style A. The point is that it may only
> seem like there is a style B and a style A. At a milonga there is a
> time later in the night when there is more room on the floor, and then
> Style B is possible. Earlier when the party is in full swing Style A is
> what is possible. All the master teachers I have ever seen do it this
> way. This is the way the younger generation, who are supposedly doing
> 'nuevo tango' do it in Buenos Aires. So in a sense I would argue that
> style A and style B aren't all that different. If you are dancing at a
> milonga you respect the other dancers, and the available space guides
> your dance. That is social tango and it can be danced using any style
> of tango.
What some folks fail to understand is that the technique and structure of
the tango are the same regardless of how one dances as long as one is
dancing Argentine tango. What many teachers show, particularly in masters
workshops, is the highest level of skill and technique for dancing the
tango. These "steps" or "sequences" they teach are didactic devices. It is
assumed that the attendees at these workshops have regular teachers (or are
teachers themselves), the basics of tango and the simplest of steps should
already be in the students repertoire. After all, why take lessons or
workshops from a master? Surely not to learn 1/2 turns to the right and left
and the ocho cortado.....
>As for music, if you associate style B with dancing to Piazzola and
> Pugliese exclusively, then maybe you haven't seen enough performances by
> the master teachers that are out there. They dance to everything. I
> have seen them do performances to D'Arienzo, Calo, Di Sarli,
> D'Agostino... Manuel's report of what Gustavo played at the milonga he
> DJd is significant. I knew without having Manuel say it what kind of
> music Gustavo would have played. He has been at this too long for it to
> be different. For Gustavo there is no style A and style B, except to
> say that there is a way you dance at a milonga, and a way you dance a
> performance.
You are absolutely right. Gustavo can definitely adjust his dancing to fit
any situation (and look great doing it too). As for the music, I could not
report all that Gustavo played at the milonga (there was quite a bit of
music there)... However I did omit a notable tanda he played at the end of
the evening. Gustavo played a tanda of Piazzolla from the "A Intrusa" album.
It was absolutely beautiful and everyone I heard was just raving about
it.... Mind you, I'd not play more than one tanda of it in a milonga, but it
was very nice and it had it's place.
Best,
Manuel
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:34:30 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango @ milongas: milonguero vs. salon (tango nuevo?)
Robert,
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:51 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango @ milongas: milonguero vs. salon (tango
nuevo?)
Ricardo,
I think you have stated things well, as they are understood outside of
Buenos Aires. It is interesting to watch the master teachers, who teach
what you call style B, when they dance at a milonga. They dance what
they dance but in the manor of style A. The point is that it may only
seem like there is a style B and a style A. At a milonga there is a
time later in the night when there is more room on the floor, and then
Style B is possible. Earlier when the party is in full swing Style A is
what is possible. All the master teachers I have ever seen do it this
way. This is the way the younger generation, who are supposedly doing
'nuevo tango' do it in Buenos Aires. So in a sense I would argue that
style A and style B aren't all that different. If you are dancing at a
milonga you respect the other dancers, and the available space guides
your dance. That is social tango and it can be danced using any style
of tango.
As for music, if you associate style B with dancing to Piazzola and
Pugliese exclusively, then maybe you haven't seen enough performances by
the master teachers that are out there. They dance to everything. I
have seen them do performances to D'Arienzo, Calo, Di Sarli,
D'Agostino... Manuel's report of what Gustavo played at the milonga he
DJd is significant. I knew without having Manuel say it what kind of
music Gustavo would have played. He has been at this too long for it to
be different. For Gustavo there is no style A and style B, except to
say that there is a way you dance at a milonga, and a way you dance a
performance.
Only outside of Buenos Aires are people thinking that they are creating
a whole new tango. In Buenos Aires there is a strong tradition that is
very much alive. There are orchestras in Buenos Aires who are playing
very good dance music, and tango is alive. New things are happening
there informed by the history of tango. How can it be otherwise when
there are people there like Julio Balmaceda, whose father Miguel was a
milonguero and a teacher who strongly influenced a whole generation of
dancers?
I think we should pay attention to how things are done in Buenos Aires,
and if we are confused we should ask the master teachers about this.
When they are showing things that take a lot of space, ask them about
what you might be able to do when you are dancing on a crowded dance
floor. When they are using only the music of Pugliese maybe you could
ask how they would use the steps to other orchestras. I think they are
providing what they think the market wants. I think they would be
delighted to deal with these other things if only people would ask. You
should hear the kind of things they say about how people dance in this
country. When they sit around a table watching the dance floor at a big
festival they aren't always talking about the weather. Not only do we
not generally know about tango in Argentina, we don't seem to be
generally interested in knowing, and they do have feelings about this.
Let me give an analogy. Would you take someone seriously if they
claimed they knew a lot about blues music but weren't familiar with
Muddy Waters or John Lee Hooker? Tango is something we do for fun
(hopefully). To that end whatever you choose to do is fine, have fun!
However, there are a lot of people out there who are claiming to be
evolving tango, and justifying all kinds of things because, they say,
tango has to evolve. I wonder how long they have spent really knowing
tango, to be so qualified to be driving the evolution. The young people
in Buenos Aires who are evolving tango know where tango has been. To
continue my earlier analogy, you could say that Jimi Hendrix evolved the
blues and you would be right in a sense. If you get to know the music
of Muddy Waters and John Lee Hooker, and other old blues men you will
see thet there is a direct line between what Hendrix did and that older
generation. That evolution stuck, and the evidence is in the listening.
So again I will say it. Dance as much as you can, try all those steps
you have learned, dance them to death until you don't have to think
about what you are doing. After awhile the steps will be yours and they
won't look like anyone but you. They will be your tools to interpret
the music, and you will interpret any music you dance to. Dance your
miles and years. Your tango will become a deep and rich artistic
language that will be your expression of your feelings. Dance until
these questions are meaningless.
Happy years of tango to all,
Robert
Riccardo Fanciulli wrote:
>
> Dear Tango-L,
>
> Thanks for the many answers to my email about milonguero vs. salon
style
> at milongas.
>
> I think I've seen some interesting comments and some others that
seemed
> not to really answer to the main point of my email, so I'd like to
reply
> and see if I can clarify what I meant.
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:13:20 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango @ milongas: milonguero vs. salon (tango nuevo?)
Wait - what I see is more people and communities going to style A, as
they mature and more members go to Bs.As. Here's what I've seen:
1. Some guy goes to Forever Tango or some big tango city, takes a series
of classes that start with the 8cb, then continues with unlead ochos,
ganchos and boleos. This teacher goes back home and teaches this as A.
tango.
2. The community plays around with this "pseudo-tango" (which looks a
lot like style B), and even brings in some teacher from Argentina. The
teacher looks at the dancing, gives up on the idea of teaching these
people anything, teaches a back sacada and takes their money. The
milongas are dangerous places for people who bruise easily.
3. Somebody goes somewhere, or somebody moves in, and a brief glimpse of
real tango is seen. This "voice in the wilderness" keeps preaching, but
few listen. That style is "too boring - teach me how to do another
gancho!" The small band of "style A" people start a schism.
4. More people convert. People start getting serious. Teachers who dance
style A still teach the old way, because it's the only way they know
and/or they are scared of losing students. But then the students start
demanding style A. The tango community is coming into its own, having
great dances and losing fewer dancers.
5. People who are now proficient at style A start dancing style B, but
now with some skill and understanding. Tango evolves. Newcomers see that
style and say "Teach me how to do that!" Teachers (who are many in
number, and not proficient in style B but do it anyway) afraid of losing
students, oblige them. The milongas are dangerous places again.
This is not unique to tango, but also happens in swing, salsa, even
country.
How off-base am I??
Lois
Minneapolis, MN 55408
> And here (finally!) comes my point. From the general facts
> that I tried to enumerate above, the style "B" is getting
> more and more important out there while the organizers of the
> milongas (which, in many cases are also the instructors that
> will teach you a back sacada followed by a voleo to start a
> giro con lapis and final barrida) are still thinking of the
> milongas the way they were 50 yrs ago.
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 08:46:59 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: Tango @ milongas: milonguero vs. salon (tango nuevo?)
Dear Lois and the List,
What describe probably happens to all dances and all communities where the dance in question has an AUTHENTIC form (social) and a STAGE =
(performance) form.
Actually you can experience the very same problem even in new dance styles such as r'n'b/hip-hop/urban (club dancing vs. videoclips).
I believe the whole thing is based on only one BIG difference: social dancing has the purpose to entertain yourself (and maybe your partner), =
while any style that puts a larger emphasis on the "looks", the form of your movement than the social factor is basically a performance oriented =
style. As usual performance oriented styles per definitionem put looks before the values important in social dancing, and social styles do it =
the other way around.
That's why most social dancers consider international (competitive) ballroom (especially latin-american dances) artificial: these dances =
simply lost most of their "social values" in the fight for the gold. Of course, there are also other factors there (connected to the form of =
evaluation during the competition) - which I won't disect here - that makes ballroom/latin cheesy.
In tango the situation is the same: stage dancing brings people in, fits into the extroverted popular culture, while at the milonga, whole thing =
reverts to the only form people are able to share space and dances, the social form. Especially, that most performers had a _slightly_ better =
basic training than most of the dancers arriving to their first (or any) milonga.
And to add just a tad bit to the style-debate. If we are talking about style I strongly suggest not to talk about style A and B, as those =
aren't real styles. Those are purposes. What I'd call styles have no names and usually specific to dancers.
And I believe, there is no "better" or "more authentic" in tango, as the whole definition of tango (according to my "research" ) is like gelly: =
both the content (like steps, like style, like music!, like style of music!) and form (used intruments, places where they dance it, social =
strata, countries etc.) change constantly and - of course - they change differently at different places (milongas, barrios, cities, countries, =
continents), in the presence of different people (at the suburbs (differently with blacks, "compadritos", ninos bien), higher society, =
public (~gardel's time), mass public (~golden age)) and when we consider purpose (social (restrained), stage (50s BsAs - authentic looking, but =
flashy), broadway (overdone), films(puts flashy stage choreography/style as it would be authentic, etc.).
It is simply too complex and chaotic to classify.
Cheers,
Aron
Budapest, Hungary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lois Donnay [mailto:donnay@DONNAY.NET]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:13 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango @ milongas: milonguero vs.
> salon (tango nuevo?)
>
>
> Wait - what I see is more people and communities going to
> style A, as they mature and more members go to Bs.As. Here's
> what I've seen:
>
> 1. Some guy goes to Forever Tango or some big tango city,
> takes a series of classes that start with the 8cb, then
> continues with unlead ochos, ganchos and boleos. This
> teacher goes back home and teaches this as A. tango.
>
> 2. The community plays around with this "pseudo-tango"
> (which looks a lot like style B), and even brings in some
> teacher from Argentina. The teacher looks at the dancing,
> gives up on the idea of teaching these people anything,
> teaches a back sacada and takes their money. The milongas
> are dangerous places for people who bruise easily.
>
> 3. Somebody goes somewhere, or somebody moves in, and a
> brief glimpse of real tango is seen. This "voice in the
> wilderness" keeps preaching, but few listen. That style is
> "too boring - teach me how to do another gancho!" The small
> band of "style A" people start a schism.
>
> 4. More people convert. People start getting serious.
> Teachers who dance style A still teach the old way, because
> it's the only way they know and/or they are scared of losing
> students. But then the students start demanding style A. The
> tango community is coming into its own, having great dances
> and losing fewer dancers.
>
> 5. People who are now proficient at style A start dancing
> style B, but now with some skill and understanding. Tango
> evolves. Newcomers see that style and say "Teach me how to
> do that!" Teachers (who are many in number, and not
> proficient in style B but do it anyway) afraid of losing
> students, oblige them. The milongas are dangerous places again.
>
> This is not unique to tango, but also happens in swing,
> salsa, even country.
>
> How off-base am I??
>
> Lois
> Minneapolis, MN 55408
>
> > And here (finally!) comes my point. From the general facts that I
> > tried to enumerate above, the style "B" is getting more and more
> > important out there while the organizers of the milongas
> (which, in
> > many cases are also the instructors that will teach you a
> back sacada
> > followed by a voleo to start a giro con lapis and final
> barrida) are
> > still thinking of the milongas the way they were 50 yrs ago.
>
