3086 Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 00:04:42 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
From an interesting article comparing Argentine tango and Nuevo tango by
Igor Polk in San Francisco:
In my point of view these are very different. First of all Tango Nuevo is
created by Gustavo Naviera and Fabian Salas. They openly proclaim their
authorship. The story is there, you can find it on Internet. I like Tango
Nuevo. I learn and dance it. It is fun and good exercise. But I do not like
when Tango Nuevo is called Argentine Tango. It is not. Something is missed
in this extract called Tango Nuevo. For now I just say that the difference
between Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango is the same like the difference
between frozen microwave food and mom's dinner. Like between Sprite and
Champaign. Like between root beer and Beck's.
Nobody can say that Tchaikovsky ballet dances are real russian or persian
dances, right? But somehow people think that show tango is what the real
tango is.
Read on at: https://www.virtuar.com/tango/tango_weblog.htm#tangonuevo
Also two distinct classifications of close embrace styles, cultural and
physical: https://www.virtuar.com/tango/tango_weblog.htm#20030218_2026
I believe I dance milonga in #3 and tango in the style #2.5.
#5 is V-frame.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:37:37 -0800
From: Sean Dockery <sean13@MYREALBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Seems a bit more blurry to me. I recall at least Fabian, if not Gustavo saying that there is no such thing as tango nuevo, and that what he dances =
is argentine tango. At what point is there a change, is it no longer argentine tango if I am dancing in close embrace, and I do "change of direct=
ion" or a single axis turn ("colgada")? Are "volcadas" nuevo tango or are they argentine tango?
Who deturmines what is what? The Tango L list? Is it important to distinguish? Do I need to ask my partner if they dance "Argentine Tango" or "Tang=
o Nuevo"?
OK, I'm done.
Sean
(btw: is it NT or AT if I am dancing to alternative music in close embrace?)
-----Original Message-----
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 00:04:42 +0000
Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
From an interesting article comparing Argentine tango and Nuevo tango by
Igor Polk in San Francisco:
In my point of view these are very different. First of all Tango Nuevo is
created by Gustavo Naviera and Fabian Salas. They openly proclaim their
authorship. The story is there, you can find it on Internet. I like Tango
Nuevo. I learn and dance it. It is fun and good exercise. But I do not like
when Tango Nuevo is called Argentine Tango. It is not. Something is missed
in this extract called Tango Nuevo. For now I just say that the difference
between Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango is the same like the difference
between frozen microwave food and mom's dinner. Like between Sprite and
Champaign. Like between root beer and Beck's.
Nobody can say that Tchaikovsky ballet dances are real russian or persian
dances, right? But somehow people think that show tango is what the real
tango is.
Read on at: https://www.virtuar.com/tango/tango_weblog.htm#tangonuevo
Also two distinct classifications of close embrace styles, cultural and
physical: https://www.virtuar.com/tango/tango_weblog.htm#20030218_2026
I believe I dance milonga in #3 and tango in the style #2.5.
#5 is V-frame.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:10:01 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
> From an interesting article comparing Argentine tango and Nuevo tango by
> Igor Polk in San Francisco:
>
> In my point of view these are very different. First of all Tango Nuevo is
> created by Gustavo Naviera and Fabian Salas. They openly proclaim their
> authorship. The story is there, you can find it on Internet.
I wonder what traditionalists who learned tango in the 20's and
30's had to say about a guy like Petroleo, who invented boleos,
giros, arastres and piques.
> I like Tango
> Nuevo. I learn and dance it. It is fun and good exercise. But I do not
> like
> when Tango Nuevo is called Argentine Tango. It is not. Something is
> missed
> in this extract called Tango Nuevo. For now I just say that the
> difference
> between Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango is the same like the difference
> between frozen microwave food and mom's dinner. Like between Sprite and
> Champaign. Like between root beer and Beck's.
De gustibus non dispudandum.
Although if he can have mom's dinner, Beck's and Champagne but
pursues frozen microwave food, sprite and root beer, perhaps we
should add a side dish of "He doth protest too much" to the menu.
> Nobody can say that Tchaikovsky ballet dances are real russian or persian
> dances, right?
Nobody would even think it. But the comparison does not hold true.
After all, ballet did not evolve from Russian or Persian (or even
French) folk dance, but Nuevo Tango most surely did evolve from
Salon Tango.
> But somehow people think that show tango is what the real tango is.
"Nuevo Tango" the same as "Show Tango"? I think not. He makes a
logical fallacy there. Before Fabian Salas and Gustavo Naveira
began developing Nuevo, thye were both accomplished in the Salon
style of tango.
> Read on at: https://www.virtuar.com/tango/tango_weblog.htm#tangonuevo
Compare and contrast what he has to say with this article on Petroleo,
a tango innovator of the 40's:
https://www.planet-tango.com/elfiru/petroleo.htm
<snip to end>
To me, Igor disregards the difference between models (or ways of
examining) of Tango and theories of Tango. While a Grand Unified
Theory of Tango which can describe every possibility good-to-great
Tango dancers can generate has yet to manifest, the Nuevo model of
Tango as a turning dance has neither less nor more validity than
the older model of tango as a walking dance.
No astronomer would would say that optical telescopes more accurately
describe the universe than a radio telescope. They simply examine
different aspects of the same thing.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:41:38 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Christopher, your point in comparing Petroleo to Gustavo Naviera and Fabian
Salas is very much valid.
Just like Petroleo reinvented steps in response to new rhythm of tango music
of the 40s (according to the article
https://www.planet-tango.com/elfiru/petroleo.htm), Nuevo Tango looks natural
to less rhythmic music, which traditional dancers consider to be music for
listening - because it does not feel right for dancing in the traditional
style - they feel uncomfortable changing the rhythm of their steps, I guess.
Personally I enjoy dancing in close embrace to less rhythmic music be it
Milonga del angel or Nina Simone as much as to tangos with more obvious
rhythm and do not see any need to dance Nuevo to this music. The dance looks
and feels much calmer/different from the one I dance to traditional tangos.
Of course there is no need to adjust traditional style to rhythmic alt
tangos (Tango in Harlem, Paolo Conte).
Nuevo Tango to D'Arienzo? I think not.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
>Reply-To: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the
>difference?
>Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:10:01 -0600
>
>Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
>
>>From an interesting article comparing Argentine tango and Nuevo tango by
>>Igor Polk in San Francisco:
>>
>>In my point of view these are very different. First of all Tango Nuevo is
>>created by Gustavo Naviera and Fabian Salas. They openly proclaim their
>>authorship. The story is there, you can find it on Internet.
>
>I wonder what traditionalists who learned tango in the 20's and
>30's had to say about a guy like Petroleo, who invented boleos,
>giros, arastres and piques.
>
>>I like Tango
>>Nuevo. I learn and dance it. It is fun and good exercise. But I do not
>>like
>>when Tango Nuevo is called Argentine Tango. It is not. Something is
>>missed
>>in this extract called Tango Nuevo. For now I just say that the
>>difference
>>between Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango is the same like the difference
>>between frozen microwave food and mom's dinner. Like between Sprite and
>>Champaign. Like between root beer and Beck's.
>
>De gustibus non dispudandum.
>
>Although if he can have mom's dinner, Beck's and Champagne but
>pursues frozen microwave food, sprite and root beer, perhaps we
>should add a side dish of "He doth protest too much" to the menu.
>
>>Nobody can say that Tchaikovsky ballet dances are real russian or persian
>>dances, right?
>
>Nobody would even think it. But the comparison does not hold true.
>After all, ballet did not evolve from Russian or Persian (or even
>French) folk dance, but Nuevo Tango most surely did evolve from
>Salon Tango.
>
>>But somehow people think that show tango is what the real tango is.
>
>"Nuevo Tango" the same as "Show Tango"? I think not. He makes a
>logical fallacy there. Before Fabian Salas and Gustavo Naveira
>began developing Nuevo, thye were both accomplished in the Salon
>style of tango.
>
>>Read on at: https://www.virtuar.com/tango/tango_weblog.htm#tangonuevo
>
>Compare and contrast what he has to say with this article on Petroleo,
>a tango innovator of the 40's:
>
>https://www.planet-tango.com/elfiru/petroleo.htm
>
><snip to end>
>
>To me, Igor disregards the difference between models (or ways of
>examining) of Tango and theories of Tango. While a Grand Unified
>Theory of Tango which can describe every possibility good-to-great
>Tango dancers can generate has yet to manifest, the Nuevo model of
>Tango as a turning dance has neither less nor more validity than
>the older model of tango as a walking dance.
>
>No astronomer would would say that optical telescopes more accurately
>describe the universe than a radio telescope. They simply examine
>different aspects of the same thing.
>
>--
>Christopher L. Everett
>
>Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
>MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 18:19:46 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
One more note:
Since dance represents music it is my fairly safe to predict that as long as
traditional music is played at milongas, nuevo will remain at the fringes of
tango.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:14:34 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
>Nuevo Tango looks natural
to less rhythmic music, which traditional dancers consider to be music for
listening - because it does not feel right for dancing in the traditional
style - they feel uncomfortable changing the rhythm of their steps, I
guess.<
May I disagree with the above premise.
I had the opportunity to watch and record Fabian Salas and Lucia Mazer's
dance presentation to a well known D'Angelis' vals in 1999 in Vancouver.
Fabian's rhythmic and syncopated dance style brought the house down. He
changed the rhythm of his steps (syncopated) whenever possible.
At this event Fabian also danced to Pugliese's "Nochero Soy" with rhythmic
and syncopated steps. BTW, Fabian's dance partner for this number was Susana
Domingues.
Fabian's final number was a tango dance to Piazolla's music. The changes in
rhythm and syncopations were still present but more subtle.
The nuevo tango I saw Fabian danced looked natural when danced with changes
in rhythm and syncopations.
Best regards,
Bruno
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:54:15 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
On Jan 7, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
> Since dance represents music it is my fairly safe to predict that as
> long as
> traditional music is played at milongas, nuevo will remain at the
> fringes of
> tango.
I can't really agree with this.
Nuevo tango, that is the "concepts and possibilities that came from the
practice explorations of Gustavo, Salas & others", might be thought of
as a style, teaching methodology or an analysis.
Perhaps Nuevo has suffered a prejudicial reputation from a few wild,
self-defined nuevo dancers flailing around at milongas without regard
to the atmosphere of meditative social dancers. Or maybe it has become
associated with a few tango dancers who hate tango music.
Nuevo isn't music dependent, and steps from nuevo thinking work fine
with D'Arienzo.
Also, nuevo helped produce more improvisational teaching methodologies
and freed many teachers from needing to depend on the 8-Count basic.
Most usefully, nuevo has enabled tango teachers and dancers to use a
much richer analytic framework.
NUEVO STYLE
As a style, maybe we think of the liquid, flowing tango of Chicho, but
Gustavo dances in a very traditional tango embrace, and you would be
hard-pressed to call it anything but traditional, salon tango, even if
the movements are non-traditional.
NUEVO METHODOLOGY & ANALYSIS
As methodology or analysis Nuevo is very fundamental, and useful to
practitioners of any style from salon to milonguero. I think of nuevo
as a distillation of tango concepts, which helps us become aware of
more possibilities as well as easier ways to do old possibilities.
Specifically, all tango dancers would benefit from study or developing
skills that nuevo practitioners have made more visible:
- Axis control
- Pivoting
- Spiralling
- Stealing steps/movements from the opposite role
- Geometries and logic of movements
- Healthy movements (avoiding injury)
- Energetic analysis (momentum & rebound)
- Improvisation & lead-follow (even including difficult movements)
My teaching of the traditional tango turns with sacadas is completely
founded upon nuevo concepts of movement, axis, pivoting and geometry.
It took me forever to learn and become decent with open-embrace turns,
but with nuevo understanding, I can make it much easier for those who
come after me.
TWO COMPLAINTS:
(1) Nuevo has raised the bar in terms of tango possibilities and skill,
much as stage tango has done. I frequently see teachers present really
difficult elements to beginners or people who have no hope of ever
achieving them.
A normal, un-athletic person can easily learn tango, but not a version
of tango that requires superior athleticism or even ballet-type skills.
(2) Some nuevo practitioners get sucked ever deeper into complex puzzle
pieces of tango movements, taking attention away from more subtle
communications.
I remember dancing with a skillful nuevo follower who followed
impeccably every big, energetic movement I could lead, but was
incapable of following the "milonguero salida", because the ability to
follow a small step in the crossed-basic was completely missing from
her muscle-memory. She was all-energy/no subtlety.
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:09:59 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
First of all, the Nuevo Tango label was never really accepted by Fabian
Salas or some of the other famous and highly skilled dancers such as Chicho,
Mauricio Castro or Gustavo Naveira (who has nothing to do with Nuevo Tango
but his name always comes up).
Anyway, if the style of dancing that's being discussed is similar to what
Fabian Salas dances or the style (completely different) that Chicho dances.
Or some other such style, it's totally wrong to say it's not made for
rhythmic music. I've taken numerous classes with the teachers mentioned
above and I can tell you for sure that the favorite music these dancers
(specially Fabian) use to teach and perform seems to be Di Sarli..... It
would be difficult to find more measured and accentuated beats in any other
tango orquestra....... Sure, unskilled dancers cannot perform complex and
challenging movements to steady rhythms, but that does not mean that the
style of Fabian Salas (or others) is only useful for non-traditional tango
music.
----Original Message Follows----
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Reply-To: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the
difference?
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:47:50 -0800
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
I am not sure if I understand what is Nuevo tango by definition.
According to Stephan Brown's site:
"Nuevo Tango refers to a pedagogic approach to tango dancing developed by Gustavo Naveira and Fabian Salas that emphasizes a structural analysis of the dance in which previously unexplored combinations of steps and new figures can be found. It can also mean the style of dancing that comes from that analysis".
Going by this definition nuevo tango is merely a way teaching/learning and understanding tango[??].
Then what makes these so called "nuevo dancers" dance the way do, rather so little dancing. I have seen Gustavo, the "father of neuvo tango", he really does dance, he does dance to music. So there must be a different definition for "nuevo tango ??
On the other hand personally I think tango can be better understood, if one realizes that basic structure of the dance is the turns, at least that is how I have been learning. Does this make me a neuvo tango dancer? ;)
So please can anyone tell me what is nuevo tango?.
Rai
Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:One more note:
Since dance represents music it is my fairly safe to predict that as long as
traditional music is played at milongas, nuevo will remain at the fringes of
tango.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:49:20 -0700
From: Chas Gale <hotchango@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
"Nuevo" v "Traditional", the 8 count basic, the back step, teaching
patterns v elements... Oleh knows where all the hottest buttons are and
pushes them regularly. I wonder if he really cares, or if he just likes
twisting panties. I think Oleh gets some sick pleasure out of throwing
foxes into the hen house and watching the feathers fly... Way to go,
Oleh! Keep up the good work.
Chas "Never rouses rabble" Gale
https://www.thetangohouse.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:20 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the
difference?
One more note:
Since dance represents music it is my fairly safe to predict that as
long as traditional music is played at milongas, nuevo will remain at
the fringes of tango.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
"subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:50:53 -0800
From: Larry Richelli <dancekauai@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
I must agree with you whole-heartedly!
Thanks
www.alohatango.com
--- Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> One more note:
>
> Since dance represents music it is my fairly safe to
> predict that as long as
> traditional music is played at milongas, nuevo will
> remain at the fringes of
> tango.
>
> Cheers, Oleh K.
> https://TangoSpring.com
>
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:12:09 -0800
From: Larry Richelli <dancekauai@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Tom,
I would not argue with you here but I must say that
just watching the difference on the woman s faces. In
milonguero style, there faces look much like a
pleasurable trance...soft and very pretty.
The minute they open up and start the "other tango"
that same face becomes tight and straight, needing to
concentrate on the steps.
I have seen this over and over again.
--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
> > Since dance represents music it is my fairly safe
> to predict that as
> > long as
> > traditional music is played at milongas, nuevo
> will remain at the
> > fringes of
> > tango.
>
> I can't really agree with this.
>
> Nuevo tango, that is the "concepts and possibilities
> that came from the
> practice explorations of Gustavo, Salas & others",
> might be thought of
> as a style, teaching methodology or an analysis.
>
> Perhaps Nuevo has suffered a prejudicial reputation
> from a few wild,
> self-defined nuevo dancers flailing around at
> milongas without regard
> to the atmosphere of meditative social dancers. Or
> maybe it has become
> associated with a few tango dancers who hate tango
> music.
>
> Nuevo isn't music dependent, and steps from nuevo
> thinking work fine
> with D'Arienzo.
>
> Also, nuevo helped produce more improvisational
> teaching methodologies
> and freed many teachers from needing to depend on
> the 8-Count basic.
>
> Most usefully, nuevo has enabled tango teachers and
> dancers to use a
> much richer analytic framework.
>
>
> NUEVO STYLE
>
> As a style, maybe we think of the liquid, flowing
> tango of Chicho, but
> Gustavo dances in a very traditional tango embrace,
> and you would be
> hard-pressed to call it anything but traditional,
> salon tango, even if
> the movements are non-traditional.
>
>
> NUEVO METHODOLOGY & ANALYSIS
>
> As methodology or analysis Nuevo is very
> fundamental, and useful to
> practitioners of any style from salon to milonguero.
> I think of nuevo
> as a distillation of tango concepts, which helps us
> become aware of
> more possibilities as well as easier ways to do old
> possibilities.
>
> Specifically, all tango dancers would benefit from
> study or developing
> skills that nuevo practitioners have made more
> visible:
> - Axis control
> - Pivoting
> - Spiralling
> - Stealing steps/movements from the opposite role
> - Geometries and logic of movements
> - Healthy movements (avoiding injury)
> - Energetic analysis (momentum & rebound)
> - Improvisation & lead-follow (even including
> difficult movements)
>
> My teaching of the traditional tango turns with
> sacadas is completely
> founded upon nuevo concepts of movement, axis,
> pivoting and geometry.
> It took me forever to learn and become decent with
> open-embrace turns,
> but with nuevo understanding, I can make it much
> easier for those who
> come after me.
>
>
> TWO COMPLAINTS:
>
> (1) Nuevo has raised the bar in terms of tango
> possibilities and skill,
> much as stage tango has done. I frequently see
> teachers present really
> difficult elements to beginners or people who have
> no hope of ever
> achieving them.
>
> A normal, un-athletic person can easily learn tango,
> but not a version
> of tango that requires superior athleticism or even
> ballet-type skills.
>
> (2) Some nuevo practitioners get sucked ever deeper
> into complex puzzle
> pieces of tango movements, taking attention away
> from more subtle
> communications.
>
> I remember dancing with a skillful nuevo follower
> who followed
> impeccably every big, energetic movement I could
> lead, but was
> incapable of following the "milonguero salida",
> because the ability to
> follow a small step in the crossed-basic was
> completely missing from
> her muscle-memory. She was all-energy/no subtlety.
>
>
>
> Tom Stermitz
> https://www.tango.org
>
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:53:59 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Dear Larry:
With all due respect, that look on the women's faces,
the trance, probably comes from them not being
required to do anything. They can relax, because
nothing much is happening, and nothing much will
happen. I see the same look on women's faces when
they are asleep. Me, I prefer to see aome sparks of
electricity passing between partners in tango, a true
conversation between equal partners. I am not looking
for a Stepford wife. I am looking for someone who has
something to say to me. I like exciting women. As the
French say, "Why make it simple, when you can make it
complicated, and therefore much more interesting." My
humble opinion.
Derik
https://www.tangoworldwide.com
--- Larry Richelli <dancekauai@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Tom,
> I would not argue with you here but I must say that
> just watching the difference on the woman s faces.
> In
> milonguero style, there faces look much like a
> pleasurable trance...soft and very pretty.
> The minute they open up and start the "other tango"
> that same face becomes tight and straight, needing
> to
> concentrate on the steps.
> I have seen this over and over again.
>
> --- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG> wrote:
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:41:26 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Derik has channeled some French thus:
"Why make it simple, when you can make it complicated, and therefore much
more interesting."
To help understand this curious statement consider programming VCR with
remote control. Or navigating iPod interface with several thousand songs
loaded in it.
Anyone familiar with usability might answer: "So that you could explore more
fundamental and therefore more exciting issues, for example".
Obviously you have not read this book:
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465067107/qid05406234/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-6825805-9330222?v=glance&s=books&nP7846
and consequently you are not aware that there are interesting activities
beyond masochistic.
Cheers, Oleh K., trying to see trees beyond the forest
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the
>difference?
>Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:53:59 -0800
>
>Dear Larry:
>
>With all due respect, that look on the women's faces,
>the trance, probably comes from them not being
>required to do anything. They can relax, because
>nothing much is happening, and nothing much will
>happen. I see the same look on women's faces when
>they are asleep. Me, I prefer to see aome sparks of
>electricity passing between partners in tango, a true
>conversation between equal partners. I am not looking
>for a Stepford wife. I am looking for someone who has
>something to say to me. I like exciting women. As the
>French say, "Why make it simple, when you can make it
>complicated, and therefore much more interesting." My
>humble opinion.
>
>Derik
>https://www.tangoworldwide.com
>
>--- Larry Richelli <dancekauai@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
> > Tom,
> > I would not argue with you here but I must say that
> > just watching the difference on the woman s faces.
> > In
> > milonguero style, there faces look much like a
> > pleasurable trance...soft and very pretty.
> > The minute they open up and start the "other tango"
> > that same face becomes tight and straight, needing
> > to
> > concentrate on the steps.
> > I have seen this over and over again.
> >
> > --- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG> wrote:
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:17:44 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Derek thinks:
> With all due respect, that look on the women's faces,
> the trance, probably comes from them not being
> required to do anything. They can relax, because
> nothing much is happening, and nothing much will
> happen. I see the same look on women's faces when
> they are asleep.
Derek, allow me one embarrassing question:
Are you a virgin? Familiar with watching sleeping women on benches, from a
distance ?
Me, I prefer to see aome sparks of
> electricity passing between partners in tango, a true
> conversation between equal partners. I am not looking
> for a Stepford wife. I am looking for someone who has
> something to say to me. I like exciting women.
Or, if you are not, do you need to talk all the way between the sheets, to
keep the communication going?
As the
> French say, "Why make it simple, when you can make it
> complicated, and therefore much more interesting." My
> humble opinion.
Indeed. Tango is certainly one way to make approaching a woman's body
unnecessarily complicated. ; )
Let this woman tell you a secret,that you might never solve if you go on in
this fashion: when a woman closes her eyes in tango, it happens because she
trusts the man, and she is intensely listening to his body talking to hers.
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:25:07 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Dear Astrid: The time to be in a trance is after, not
before. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
wrote:
> Derek thinks:
> > With all due respect, that look on the women's
faces,
> > the trance, probably comes from them not being
> > required to do anything. They can relax, because
> > nothing much is happening, and nothing much will
> > happen. I see the same look on women's faces when
> > they are asleep.
>
> Derek, allow me one embarrassing question:
> Are you a virgin? Familiar with watching sleeping
women on benches, from a
> distance ?
>
> Me, I prefer to see aome sparks of
> > electricity passing between partners in tango, a
true
> > conversation between equal partners. I am not
looking
> > for a Stepford wife. I am looking for someone who
has
> > something to say to me. I like exciting women.
>
> Or, if you are not, do you need to talk all the way
between the sheets, to
> keep the communication going?
>
> As the
> > French say, "Why make it simple, when you can make
it
> > complicated, and therefore much more interesting."
My
> > humble opinion.
>
> Indeed. Tango is certainly one way to make
approaching a woman's body
> unnecessarily complicated. ; )
> Let this woman tell you a secret,that you might
never solve if you go on in
> this fashion: when a woman closes her eyes in tango,
it happens because she
> trusts the man, and she is intensely listening to
his body talking to hers.
>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:55:19 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Wow. This should be taped to every leader's tango mirror. Thanks, Astrid!
Lois, Minneapolis
>
> Indeed. Tango is certainly one way to make approaching a
> woman's body unnecessarily complicated. ; ) Let this woman
> tell you a secret,that you might never solve if you go on in
> this fashion: when a woman closes her eyes in tango, it
> happens because she trusts the man, and she is intensely
> listening to his body talking to hers.
>
>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:15:13 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the difference?
Derik, in these matters it is useful to listen to women, _they_ do know
better what _they_ like. You can start here:
https://www.sevenstories.com/Book/index.cfm?GCOIX322100510540
Cheers, Oleh K., the reader
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Nuevo and Argentine Tango. What is the
>difference?
>Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:25:07 -0800
>
>Dear Astrid: The time to be in a trance is after, not
>before. Derik
>--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
>wrote:
> > Derek thinks:
> > > With all due respect, that look on the women's
>faces,
> > > the trance, probably comes from them not being
> > > required to do anything. They can relax, because
> > > nothing much is happening, and nothing much will
> > > happen. I see the same look on women's faces when
> > > they are asleep.
> >
> > Derek, allow me one embarrassing question:
> > Are you a virgin? Familiar with watching sleeping
>women on benches, from a
> > distance ?
> >
> > Me, I prefer to see aome sparks of
> > > electricity passing between partners in tango, a
>true
> > > conversation between equal partners. I am not
>looking
> > > for a Stepford wife. I am looking for someone who
>has
> > > something to say to me. I like exciting women.
> >
> > Or, if you are not, do you need to talk all the way
>between the sheets, to
> > keep the communication going?
> >
> > As the
> > > French say, "Why make it simple, when you can make
>it
> > > complicated, and therefore much more interesting."
> My
> > > humble opinion.
> >
> > Indeed. Tango is certainly one way to make
>approaching a woman's body
> > unnecessarily complicated. ; )
> > Let this woman tell you a secret,that you might
>never solve if you go on in
> > this fashion: when a woman closes her eyes in tango,
>it happens because she
> > trusts the man, and she is intensely listening to
>his body talking to hers.
> >
>
>
