3198 Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:58:39 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Martin says:
" Suppose the leader is a woman and the follower is a man.
Suppose the leader is a man and the follower is a man.
Suppose the leader is a woman and the follower is a woman."
I have attempted to discuss the difficult subject of tango roles in tango a
few times before .
It was as controversial as the subject on Tango Styles. Something as
controversial as politics or religion.
I mentioned that tango is a reflection of Argentine culture and that being
a manifestation of that popular tradition shows the woman in all her
feminine strength as the "woman" (follower in the USA) and the man in all
his virility as the "man" (leader in the USA). This should be quite obvious
just by looking at the dancers as they interact: The man looks like the
male bird showing all his colors, the fish exposing all his fins, the
stallion exhibiting all its muscles. The woman, receptive, attentive,
interested, cuddly, loving, understanding, pretending resistance for a while
and finally surrendering.
When we practice man with man here in Argentina we have no problem saying -
I am the "woman" and you are the "man". We adopt the respective roles and
exchange then as necessary, this passes no judgment on your
virility-femininity or lack of it.
Two women dancing together adopt the necessary roles in the same way. One is
the "man" and the other is the "woman". There is no prejudice or
implication of any sort.
A real man and a real woman have the freedom therefore of being as masculine
or as feminine as they please ...or the opposite. Big deal!
The roles remain that of the woman and that of the man. To remove the
attached feminine-masculine implication (IMO) would remove a very important
part of what tango is about and finally would destroy it. Two viril men or
two feminine women dancing together would (IMO) recreate a dance different
from the authentic tango, better or worse but not exactly tango.
Summary: In tango you can be a viril man doing the role of the woman or a
feminine man pretending to do the man or you can be a very feminine lady
doing the man or a masculine girl doing the woman and everything in
between...this all while you practice or at the gay milongas.
If you do it at the other milongas somebody may call you queer, puto, etc.
but then who cares? :)).
Who cares? probably those that have some doubts about their own identity.
:)) or the ones that voted for Bush because he oposes same sex marriage but
did not care that he caused more than a 100.000 people to be killed, or
tortured, unjustly.
What do you think?
Peace and good tangos for everyone.
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:00:58 -0500
From: jackie wong <jackie.wong@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Sergio said "The roles remain that of the woman and that of the man. To
remove the attached feminine-masculine implication (IMO) would remove a very
important part of what tango is about and finally would destroy it. Two
viril men or two feminine women dancing together would (IMO) recreate a
dance different from the authentic tango, better or worse but not exactly
tango."
Ummmmm....
Well, what about a masculine woman and a feminine man dancing together? Is
that tango? (I am not sure what you mean when you apply masculine to a
word?)
I and several argentine and american friends went to la marshall and in
between our dancing (switching roles etc)we talked about same sex
partnering. One friend noted that two men dancing didn't look as good as a
woman and man dancing (assuming the woman is dancing the woman's or
follower's part and the man is dancing the man's or leader's part)and didn't
have the same feeling (from the outside)...
And then someone said, "you're making that statement based on the appearance
of the couple. Two men dancing may feel the same as a woman and man
dancing. Inside - between the two of them"
I thought that was a very insightful comment. Are the observations that
people are making based on appearance or the feeling between the two
dancers?
Sergio said "Summary: In tango you can be a viril man doing the role of the
woman or a feminine man pretending to do the man or you can be a very
feminine lady doing the man or a masculine girl doing the woman and
everything in between...this all while you practice or at the gay milongas.
If you do it at the other milongas somebody may call you queer, puto, etc.
but then who cares? :))."
Definitely Sergio, I agree, who cares. But I have to tell you that I danced
at Tasso and at a lovely milonga in the province (with a fantastic mix of
young and older dancers) with a woman and no one seemed to care. Everyone
continued to be friendly and we had a blast. So maybe things are changing
in Buenos Aires too. :-)
Jackie
www.tangopulse.net
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 9:59 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Martin says:
" Suppose the leader is a woman and the follower is a man.
Suppose the leader is a man and the follower is a man.
Suppose the leader is a woman and the follower is a woman."
I have attempted to discuss the difficult subject of tango roles in tango a
few times before .
It was as controversial as the subject on Tango Styles. Something as
controversial as politics or religion.
I mentioned that tango is a reflection of Argentine culture and that being
a manifestation of that popular tradition shows the woman in all her
feminine strength as the "woman" (follower in the USA) and the man in all
his virility as the "man" (leader in the USA). This should be quite obvious
just by looking at the dancers as they interact: The man looks like the
male bird showing all his colors, the fish exposing all his fins, the
stallion exhibiting all its muscles. The woman, receptive, attentive,
interested, cuddly, loving, understanding, pretending resistance for a while
and finally surrendering.
When we practice man with man here in Argentina we have no problem saying -
I am the "woman" and you are the "man". We adopt the respective roles and
exchange then as necessary, this passes no judgment on your
virility-femininity or lack of it.
Two women dancing together adopt the necessary roles in the same way. One is
the "man" and the other is the "woman". There is no prejudice or
implication of any sort.
A real man and a real woman have the freedom therefore of being as masculine
or as feminine as they please ...or the opposite. Big deal!
The roles remain that of the woman and that of the man. To remove the
attached feminine-masculine implication (IMO) would remove a very important
part of what tango is about and finally would destroy it. Two viril men or
two feminine women dancing together would (IMO) recreate a dance different
from the authentic tango, better or worse but not exactly tango.
Summary: In tango you can be a viril man doing the role of the woman or a
feminine man pretending to do the man or you can be a very feminine lady
doing the man or a masculine girl doing the woman and everything in
between...this all while you practice or at the gay milongas.
If you do it at the other milongas somebody may call you queer, puto, etc.
but then who cares? :)).
Who cares? probably those that have some doubts about their own identity.
:)) or the ones that voted for Bush because he oposes same sex marriage but
did not care that he caused more than a 100.000 people to be killed, or
tortured, unjustly.
What do you think?
Peace and good tangos for everyone.
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:47:59 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
>Two viril men or two feminine women dancing together would (IMO) recreate a
dance different from the authentic tango, better or worse but not exactly
tango.<
Another opinion on what authentic tango may mean:
From an interview with Abel Posse, Argentine ambassador in Praga, 1999.
While discussing anecdotes of El Che Guevara in reference to Abel Posse's
book "Cuadernos de Praga" (Prague Notebooks).
"Tango is our deep zone of reflexion and recognization of a personality that
needs to be completed, that needs to be rescued from the external will. In
this sense your question is very opportune. Tango for us (argentines) is a
bit of the other deep self where melancholy resides, a somber sense of life,
a question about fate, a doubt about social values, a parody of the society
we have organized. Tango is an internal disrespect, and it help us to
compensate. Like I said before the two movements appear. The Che Guevara
gives himself to Tango, he was a man of tango, and he liked tango, and at
times he would whisper it. The true tango is not the one offered in public
that is played in a salon, the true tango for the argentines is the one that
one listens, indirectly and without planning, in the car or in a radio. It
is like tree branches of verses that were played during the adolescence,
because of a temporary problem, and is a secret agreement with a poetic body
very peculiar."
It is known that the Che Guevara would sing tango classics, from Enrique
Santos Discepolo, he would sing those such as "Adios Muchachos" when in his
expeditions, other times he would dance it. Once, the Che Guevara's Cuban
friends from el Congo remember him dancing tango with a wooden stick, this
was a bit ironic. I repeat that tango is not an external element, but rather
an internal element, and that he (Che Guevara) was a man of tango in the
same way he was a man of poetry, he was a big reader of poetry.
https://www.caretas.com.pe/1999/1556/che/che.htm
El tango es nuestra zona profunda de reflexión y de reconocimiento de una
personalidad que se tiene que completar, que tiene que rescatarse de la
voluntad exterior. En ese sentido me parece muy lúcida su pregunta. El tango
para nosotros es un poco del otro yo profundo donde está lo melancólico, un
sentido hasta sombrío de la vida, una pregunta por el destino, una duda
sobre los valores sociales, una burla de la sociedad que hemos organizado.
El tango es una irreverencia interior y nos ayuda a compensarnos, como dije
antes, pero no hay duda que los dos movimientos se dan. Guevara se da al
tango, era un hombre del tango, le gustaba mucho el tango, a veces lo
susurraba. El tango verdadero no es el tango público que se puede tocar en
un salón, el tango verdadero para los argentinos es el que se escucha a
solas, indirectamente y sin proponérselo, en el auto o en una radio. Son
ramalazos de versos que lo tocaron desde la adolescencia por algún problema
temporal, es una secreta coincidencia con un corpus poeticum muy particular.
Se sabe que cantaba algunos que son los clásicos, los de Enrique Santos
Discépolo, cantaba a veces "Adiós Muchachos" cuando estaba en la campaña. A
veces bailaba tango. Una vez, lo recuerdan sus amigos cubanos en el Congo,
bailó el tango con una estaca de madera, un poco irónicamente. Pero el
tango, le repito, no es un elemento exterior sino un elemento interior y él
era hombre del tango como era hombre de la poesía, era un enorme lector de
poesía
Best regards,
Bruno
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 20:45:24 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
--- Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET> wrote:
> Another opinion on what authentic tango may mean:
>
> From an interview with Abel Posse, Argentine
> ambassador in Praga, 1999.
> While discussing anecdotes of El Che Guevara in
> reference to Abel Posse's
> book "Cuadernos de Praga" (Prague Notebooks).
>
> "Tango is our deep zone of reflexion and
> recognization of a personality that
> needs to be completed, that needs to be rescued from
> the external will.
Deep Zone. I like the sound of that. More
descriptive than Tango Zone.
Trini
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:32:23 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Key truth IMO in Sergio's post: "Two women [or two men - {Jay}] dancing
together adopt the necessary roles ..."
The "roles" is the key. The lead-follow structure of tango requires that
both the leader and follower, whether they be men or women, play specific
roles.
A passage from my webpage: "Argentine Tango - what is so great about it -
gender relationship"
"In the context of Tango, yang characteristics include action, conviction,
confidence, and leading. Note that while these are often considered
"masculine" traits, women have all of them as well. Yin characteristics
include waiting, listening, receptivity, and following. Again note that
while these are generally considered "feminine" characteristics, men have
these capabilities too."
Both men and women have the potential of acting in "masculine/yang" ways,
and both have the capability of acting in "feminine/yin" ways. The key
thing, in this discussion, is that a woman who is leading must elicit the
"masculine/yang" characteristics of sureness, conviction, and confidence,
because those are the characteristics that are required to be successful in
the "role" of a tango leader. Similarly, a man who follows must act with the
feminine/yin characteristics of receptiivity, listening, and letting go,
because these are the characteristics that are required to be successful in
the role of a tango follower.
Jay in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 06:57:04 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Dear Jay, Being led by a woman is very different.
Women who follow women are not learning how to
commicate with a man. Same applies to men following
men. My opinion. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:
> Key truth IMO in Sergio's post: "Two women [or two
men - {Jay}] dancing
> together adopt the necessary roles ..."
>
> The "roles" is the key. The lead-follow structure of
tango requires that
> both the leader and follower, whether they be men or
women, play specific
> roles.
>
> A passage from my webpage: "Argentine Tango - what
is so great about it -
> gender relationship"
> "In the context of Tango, yang characteristics
include action, conviction,
> confidence, and leading. Note that while these are
often considered
> "masculine" traits, women have all of them as well.
Yin characteristics
> include waiting, listening, receptivity, and
following. Again note that
> while these are generally considered "feminine"
characteristics, men have
> these capabilities too."
>
> Both men and women have the potential of acting in
"masculine/yang" ways,
> and both have the capability of acting in
"feminine/yin" ways. The key
> thing, in this discussion, is that a woman who is
leading must elicit the
> "masculine/yang" characteristics of sureness,
conviction, and confidence,
> because those are the characteristics that are
required to be successful in
> the "role" of a tango leader. Similarly, a man who
follows must act with the
> feminine/yin characteristics of receptiivity,
listening, and letting go,
> because these are the characteristics that are
required to be successful in
> the role of a tango follower.
>
> Jay in Portland
> www.TangoMoments.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Sergio Vandekier
<sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
>
> Martin says:
>
> " Suppose the leader is a woman and the
follower is a man.
> Suppose the leader is a man and the follower is a
man.
> Suppose the leader is a woman and the follower is a
woman."
>
> I have attempted to discuss the difficult subject of
tango roles in tango a
> few times before .
> It was as controversial as the subject on Tango
Styles. Something as
> controversial as politics or religion.
>
> I mentioned that tango is a reflection of Argentine
culture and that being
> a manifestation of that popular tradition shows the
woman in all her
> feminine strength as the "woman" (follower in the
USA) and the man in all
> his virility as the "man" (leader in the USA). This
should be quite obvious
> just by looking at the dancers as they interact:
The man looks like the
> male bird showing all his colors, the fish exposing
all his fins, the
> stallion exhibiting all its muscles. The woman,
receptive, attentive,
> interested, cuddly, loving, understanding,
pretending resistance for a while
> and finally surrendering.
>
> When we practice man with man here in Argentina we
have no problem saying -
> I am the "woman" and you are the "man". We adopt the
respective roles and
> exchange then as necessary, this passes no judgment
on your
> virility-femininity or lack of it.
>
> Two women dancing together adopt the necessary roles
in the same way. One is
> the "man" and the other is the "woman". There is no
prejudice or
> implication of any sort.
>
> A real man and a real woman have the freedom
therefore of being as masculine
> or as feminine as they please ...or the opposite.
Big deal!
>
> The roles remain that of the woman and that of the
man. To remove the
> attached feminine-masculine implication (IMO) would
remove a very important
> part of what tango is about and finally would
destroy it. Two viril men or
> two feminine women dancing together would (IMO)
recreate a dance different
> from the authentic tango, better or worse but not
exactly tango.
>
> Summary: In tango you can be a viril man doing the
role of the woman or a
> feminine man pretending to do the man or you can be
a very feminine lady
> doing the man or a masculine girl doing the woman
and everything in
> between...this all while you practice or at the gay
milongas.
> If you do it at the other milongas somebody may call
you queer, puto, etc.
> but then who cares? :)).
> Who cares? probably those that have some doubts
about their own identity.
> :)) or the ones that vot
=== Message Truncated ===
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:09:37 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
>The "roles" is the key. The lead-follow structure of tango requires that
both the leader and follower, whether they be men or women, play specific
roles.<
My comments:
Why not play attitudes that are either active or passive, rather than
playing masculine or feminine traits. Lead-follow does not convey the same
meaning in Spanish. In reference to role playing, I think this is a matter
of form rather than substance, in other words you are saying one has to look
the part before engaging in the dance.
Best regards,
Bruno
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:52:25 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
--- Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET> wrote:
Lead-follow
> does not convey the same
> meaning in Spanish.
Aha! We might be getting somewhere. What would they
convey?
I like the term El Marca instead of "the lead",
because it simply sounds like an invitation, an
indicator, a mark.
I don't know what the act of following would be in
Spanish or how it would translate.
Trini
P.S. And would there be an Argentine word for what we
call the Tango Trance?
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 20:56:20 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
>I like the term El Marca instead of "the lead",
because it simply sounds like an invitation, an
indicator, a mark.
I don't know what the act of following would be in
Spanish or how it would translate.<
My comments:
In Spanish "lead" means among other things, but most often than not
"dirigir, or "conducir", "guiar", more like "to direct" in English.
Also, "follow" in Spanish means "seguir" equivalent to "trailing" in
English.
From the Metodo (method) to Tango Danza Tradicional:
Llevar: as in a couple walking while the man is holding the woman's hand or
arm. It reflects an active attitude of the man to the woman.
Esperar: as in waiting for the man to dance. It reflects a passive attitude
of the woman to the man. The attitude is not an idle or restive but
attentive to the man.
Marcacion: Is what the man does at the woman's waist with his hand so that
she moves either left or right according to the leg.
Marcar: To accompany the compass (musical measure), or to accompany the
dance movements rhythmically.
Best Regards,
Bruno
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:56:09 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
> Lead-follow
> > does not convey the same
> > meaning in Spanish.
>
> Aha! We might be getting somewhere. What would they
> convey?
>
Thing is, Latin women are not really passive, are they?
Something comes to mind that Gavito once said about tango: "Tango is like a
constant fight between the man and woman. The man challenges the woman:
'Look, can you do THAT ?' The woman responds:'Sure, I'm already there.'
'Well, how about THIS?' Woman answers:'Easy ! See, I am already there !'"
and so on... And he made the moves look like two cats stalking around each
other, slowly, slowly...and--Whack! suddenly a lightening fast
move!.....More slow circling around each other.... He taught me also how the
woman can stop the man from moving, and do some sensuous play with her feet
while she makes him wait. He told me:"The man may be surprised when you stop
him, but.... (and he drew an invisible zipper across) he is not going to
complain..." ; )
Far from passive, actually. Far too electric for that if the interplay is
well done.
Astrid
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:15:14 -0700
From: romerob <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
This is an anecdote about women waiting in tango:
In an interview in a Solo Tango channel in Buenos Aires, past Nestor Ray
commented that when teaching Sharon Stone to dance tango for a TV
presentation with Robert Duvall Nestor noticed that Sharon Stone would hurry
up in the dance. Nestor told Sharon Stone that in tango the woman dances *
waiting for the man *, which Sharon replied in Spanish, "Where is he (the
man)? I have been waiting for him for 15 years!
Bruno
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:06:15 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
What a great image!
This is what the typical American couple needs to
learn when they begin dancing - to inspire each other.
Thanks,
Trini
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
> > Lead-follow
> > > does not convey the same
> > > meaning in Spanish.
> >
> > Aha! We might be getting somewhere. What would
> they
> > convey?
> >
> Thing is, Latin women are not really passive, are
> they?
> Something comes to mind that Gavito once said about
> tango: "Tango is like a
> constant fight between the man and woman. The man
> challenges the woman:
> 'Look, can you do THAT ?' The woman responds:'Sure,
> I'm already there.'
> 'Well, how about THIS?' Woman answers:'Easy ! See, I
> am already there !'"
> and so on... And he made the moves look like two
> cats stalking around each
> other, slowly, slowly...and--Whack! suddenly a
> lightening fast
> move!.....More slow circling around each other....
> He taught me also how the
> woman can stop the man from moving, and do some
> sensuous play with her feet
> while she makes him wait. He told me:"The man may be
> surprised when you stop
> him, but.... (and he drew an invisible zipper
> across) he is not going to
> complain..." ; )
>
> Far from passive, actually. Far too electric for
> that if the interplay is
> well done.
>
> Astrid
>
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:21:50 -0800
From: ramiro garcia <ramiro9@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
> P.S. And would there be an Argentine word for what we
> call the Tango Trance?
Perhaps the phrase "dormir la mujer" applies here.
ramiro
--- Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> --- Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET> wrote:
> Lead-follow
> > does not convey the same
> > meaning in Spanish.
>
> Aha! We might be getting somewhere. What would they
> convey?
>
> I like the term El Marca instead of "the lead",
> because it simply sounds like an invitation, an
> indicator, a mark.
>
> I don't know what the act of following would be in
> Spanish or how it would translate.
>
> Trini
>
> P.S. And would there be an Argentine word for what we
> call the Tango Trance?
>
>
> =====
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:10:49 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Dear Astrid:
I missed this post until just now. I agree with this
post 100 per cent.
Exactly...
I think we Americans and perhaps Northern Europeans as
well are having difficulties with tango, because we do
not understand the "idioms" in Spanish, and we are
doing the wrong things in the dance as a result.
To me ...Tango is a conversation, and the great women
tango dancers in this dance are the very strong
independent females. They fight with me, stop me,
move my foot during a "prada"....set me off in a
direction that is different than what I was planning
to do. Now that is interesting.... They do not ask
me for permission to follow them, they make me follow
them....lol. Women are very powerful. They redirect
men. They do not have to imitate men. They can use
all of the feminine skills to get exactly what they
want anytime they choose, and the good ones do it all
the time. I love women. They are wonderful. Life is
good. Thanks for this post. Great.
Derik
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
> > Lead-follow
> > > does not convey the same
> > > meaning in Spanish.
> >
> > Aha! We might be getting somewhere. What would
> they
> > convey?
> >
> Thing is, Latin women are not really passive, are
> they?
> Something comes to mind that Gavito once said about
> tango: "Tango is like a
> constant fight between the man and woman. The man
> challenges the woman:
> 'Look, can you do THAT ?' The woman responds:'Sure,
> I'm already there.'
> 'Well, how about THIS?' Woman answers:'Easy ! See, I
> am already there !'"
> and so on... And he made the moves look like two
> cats stalking around each
> other, slowly, slowly...and--Whack! suddenly a
> lightening fast
> move!.....More slow circling around each other....
> He taught me also how the
> woman can stop the man from moving, and do some
> sensuous play with her feet
> while she makes him wait. He told me:"The man may be
> surprised when you stop
> him, but.... (and he drew an invisible zipper
> across) he is not going to
> complain..." ; )
>
> Far from passive, actually. Far too electric for
> that if the interplay is
> well done.
>
> Astrid
>
>
=====
Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
https://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
281-754-4315 USA Landline Voice/Fax
d.rawson@cal.berkeley.edu
d.rawson@haas.alum.berkeley.edu
rawsonweb@yahoo.com
Europe/Asia
rawsonweb@compuserve.com
Paris, France
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:25:54 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Hi Derik, well, I agree with you in part.
I agree that being led by a woman is indeed very different. But it's also
very different for a right-handed person to eat with his left hand - but
he's still eating.
As far as being "different," even if talking about leading women, every two
women are different. Some are sensuous and intimate, and some are analytical
and emotionally distant. Still you connect with them as you can.
For me the key goes back to the yang/yin duality. I'll go so far as to say
that every relationship, whether between two lovers, two tango partners, or
two business partners, requires someone to be acting in the yang "role," and
someone must be in the "yin" role. Who takes which role can change, just
like in tango when the "woman" back-leads or "interleads" (I like that
word/concept) or when she just takes the window of opportunity from her
leader's pause to do an extended embellishment that the leader must wait for
her to complete. In that moment she is taking the yang, the active role.
Even in gay relationships, someone takes the "yang/masculine" role, and
someone takes the "yin/feminine" role. Without that duality, regardless of
the gender of the individual and whether or not the roles swap between them,
you don't have movement and flow, you don't have growth.
For me, the key thing is, as Johanna Siegmann developed in her book "The Tao
of Tango," it's not so much the masuline or feminine Behavior or the gender
of the individual that is important as it is the character of the Energy. A
woman who follows a woman is certainly learning how to follow the
yang/masculine Energy that her leader Must project in order to effectively
lead. The fact that that yang energy is coming from a woman is irrelevant.
It's still yang/masculine Energy, projecting confidence, sureness,
conviction, etc.
Being led by a woman requires a man to put his core yang/masculine energy on
hold, and to feel and act with the yin/feminine characteristics of waiting,
listening, etc. - but these characters are still part of his wholeness. So
yes, that's "different" than his "typical" behavior. But I don't think
that's a bad thing. I think it allows growth.
Derik, I hope I haven't misinterpreted the intention in your words by taking
my own typically yang/masculine behavior of picking up the ball and running
with it. So now I think it would be helpful if I do what maybe I should have
done at the start, and ask and yin/receive your response: could you be
specific in describing the ways that you find following a woman to be
"different?"
J
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:13:04 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Dear Jay, I am attempting to post less often so others
will have an opportunity to post, but since you asked
me to answer a specific question I will try to answer.
I love for women to respond to me as a man. They are
welcome to me, interlead me, or whatever, BUT I expect
them to have the majority of their leading experience
with men, not women. How are women going to learn
about men practicing with women the majority of the
time? One may learn steps, but that is not enough.
Thanks Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:
> Hi Derik, well, I agree with you in part.
>
> I agree that being led by a woman is indeed very
different. But it's also
> very different for a right-handed person to eat with
his left hand - but
> he's still eating.
>
> As far as being "different," even if talking about
leading women, every two
> women are different. Some are sensuous and intimate,
and some are analytical
> and emotionally distant. Still you connect with them
as you can.
>
> For me the key goes back to the yang/yin duality.
I'll go so far as to say
> that every relationship, whether between two lovers,
two tango partners, or
> two business partners, requires someone to be acting
in the yang "role," and
> someone must be in the "yin" role. Who takes which
role can change, just
> like in tango when the "woman" back-leads or
"interleads" (I like that
> word/concept) or when she just takes the window of
opportunity from her
> leader's pause to do an extended embellishment that
the leader must wait for
> her to complete. In that moment she is taking the
yang, the active role.
>
> Even in gay relationships, someone takes the
"yang/masculine" role, and
> someone takes the "yin/feminine" role. Without that
duality, regardless of
> the gender of the individual and whether or not the
roles swap between them,
> you don't have movement and flow, you don't have
growth.
>
> For me, the key thing is, as Johanna Siegmann
developed in her book "The Tao
> of Tango," it's not so much the masuline or feminine
Behavior or the gender
> of the individual that is important as it is the
character of the Energy. A
> woman who follows a woman is certainly learning how
to follow the
> yang/masculine Energy that her leader Must project
in order to effectively
> lead. The fact that that yang energy is coming from
a woman is irrelevant.
> It's still yang/masculine Energy, projecting
confidence, sureness,
> conviction, etc.
>
> Being led by a woman requires a man to put his core
yang/masculine energy on
> hold, and to feel and act with the yin/feminine
characteristics of waiting,
> listening, etc. - but these characters are still
part of his wholeness. So
> yes, that's "different" than his "typical" behavior.
But I don't think
> that's a bad thing. I think it allows growth.
>
> Derik, I hope I haven't misinterpreted the intention
in your words by taking
> my own typically yang/masculine behavior of picking
up the ball and running
> with it. So now I think it would be helpful if I do
what maybe I should have
> done at the start, and ask and yin/receive your
response: could you be
> specific in describing the ways that you find
following a woman to be
> "different?"
>
> J
> www.TangoMoments.com
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
>
> Dear Jay, Being led by a woman is very different.
> Women who follow women are not learning how to
> commicate with a man. Same applies to men following
> men. My opinion. Derik
>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:14:25 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Dear Jay, Sorry. Did not answer your question.
Difference is that mens lead tends to challenge the
partner. Women who dance with men a lot learn how to
challenge him back or defuse and redirect him. Women
who dance with women a lot do a firm but softer lead,
and when a man challenges them they are shocked. To me
that is the difference. Thanks. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:
> Hi Derik, well, I agree with you in part.
>
> I agree that being led by a woman is indeed very
different. But it's also
> very different for a right-handed person to eat with
his left hand - but
> he's still eating.
>
> As far as being "different," even if talking about
leading women, every two
> women are different. Some are sensuous and intimate,
and some are analytical
> and emotionally distant. Still you connect with them
as you can.
>
> For me the key goes back to the yang/yin duality.
I'll go so far as to say
> that every relationship, whether between two lovers,
two tango partners, or
> two business partners, requires someone to be acting
in the yang "role," and
> someone must be in the "yin" role. Who takes which
role can change, just
> like in tango when the "woman" back-leads or
"interleads" (I like that
> word/concept) or when she just takes the window of
opportunity from her
> leader's pause to do an extended embellishment that
the leader must wait for
> her to complete. In that moment she is taking the
yang, the active role.
>
> Even in gay relationships, someone takes the
"yang/masculine" role, and
> someone takes the "yin/feminine" role. Without that
duality, regardless of
> the gender of the individual and whether or not the
roles swap between them,
> you don't have movement and flow, you don't have
growth.
>
> For me, the key thing is, as Johanna Siegmann
developed in her book "The Tao
> of Tango," it's not so much the masuline or feminine
Behavior or the gender
> of the individual that is important as it is the
character of the Energy. A
> woman who follows a woman is certainly learning how
to follow the
> yang/masculine Energy that her leader Must project
in order to effectively
> lead. The fact that that yang energy is coming from
a woman is irrelevant.
> It's still yang/masculine Energy, projecting
confidence, sureness,
> conviction, etc.
>
> Being led by a woman requires a man to put his core
yang/masculine energy on
> hold, and to feel and act with the yin/feminine
characteristics of waiting,
> listening, etc. - but these characters are still
part of his wholeness. So
> yes, that's "different" than his "typical" behavior.
But I don't think
> that's a bad thing. I think it allows growth.
>
> Derik, I hope I haven't misinterpreted the intention
in your words by taking
> my own typically yang/masculine behavior of picking
up the ball and running
> with it. So now I think it would be helpful if I do
what maybe I should have
> done at the start, and ask and yin/receive your
response: could you be
> specific in describing the ways that you find
following a woman to be
> "different?"
>
> J
> www.TangoMoments.com
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
>
> Dear Jay, Being led by a woman is very different.
> Women who follow women are not learning how to
> commicate with a man. Same applies to men following
> men. My opinion. Derik
>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:46:36 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Derik, thank you for the clear explanation. I see what you mean and agree
with you though I hadn't thought about the dynamic in those terms before.
Good observation. Just off the top of my head, and maybe with tongue in
cheek a little bit, maybe this means we should coach women leaders to let go
a little more of their core trait of gentleness, and learn to lead more
"like a man," with more forceful intention that will challenge their
followers more?
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:14:26 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango roles and names-leader-man-woman-follower-politics
Dear Jay, Si senor. I do think that women who dance
with men the majority of the do become much more
assertive, and much more interesting as a result. My
opinion. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:
> Derik, thank you for the clear explanation. I see
what you mean and agree
> with you though I hadn't thought about the dynamic
in those terms before.
> Good observation. Just off the top of my head, and
maybe with tongue in
> cheek a little bit, maybe this means we should coach
women leaders to let go
> a little more of their core trait of gentleness, and
learn to lead more
> "like a man," with more forceful intention that will
challenge their
> followers more?
>
> J in Portland
> www.TangoMoments.com
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
>
> Dear Jay, Sorry. Did not answer your question.
> Difference is that mens lead tends to challenge the
> partner. Women who dance with men a lot learn how to
> challenge him back or defuse and redirect him. Women
> who dance with women a lot do a firm but softer
lead,
> and when a man challenges them they are shocked. To
me
> that is the difference. Thanks. Derik
>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 06:15:06 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Roles
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Dear friends of tango,
The premise is that in tango like in life there is a
masculine and a feminine role.
These roles are played when you dance or perhaps they are not evident in
your dancing.
I am going to translate some paragraphs from Nicole Nau's book "Tango, Un
Baile muy Portenio"
the book was edited in November of 2000.
I could explain this according to my own experience but I am going to avoid
doing that due to all the problems we have been having before.
What follows is not antiquity, is today. It is not my saying this is the way
it is . is a German woman who came to Argentina to learn about its culture,
tango and life in genral.
Nicole Nau says in her book (page 159):
" Generally speaking the world of the woman and that of the man are totally
separated in Argentina. This causes that the woman on one side is a total
enigma and a mystery for the man and the masculine universe is accepted by
the woman as something unknown and a fortress to be respected.
Each one knows of his specific strength and that of the other sex avoiding
the fatal consequences of : comparing, competing or lack of trust.
To be "macho" in Argentina means to be a man with all his privileges but
also with all his obligations.
In public he is the chief. There is no discussion whatsoever in this
respect. Both know it. But "to be a man" in Argentina does not only means to
have a woman but also to be responsible for her, to protect her.
It is like having a treasure in this life, for which is worth to fight day
and night. A beautiful woman.
In this fashion "machismo" in Argentina has no negative implication, quite
the opposite, to be macho is an excellent characteristic.
Women, specially in the tango world, organize all activities in such a way,
that the man be convinced that what is happening was according to his
desires. In this form the world will be in perfect order for him. Men flirt
with women all the time . He is pleased by a smile, or a special look:
something that suggests that he could have her if he wanted her. This is a
totally innocent attitude, there is no threat whatsoever.
Both women and men know how to play this game without burning their
fingers. Both feel the potentiality of something but they do not allow it to
happen.
Masculine (page. 163)
Masculine is synonymous with activity, greatness, vigor, strength.
A firm position on the floor, with legs somewhat apart constitutes a
masculine symbol, the same way as the decision and poise in stepping without
hesitation, to step with firmness. The man is the one that leads, if there
is a dialog with a woman is because he wishes it to happen and not because
he is supposed to do it. His position is solid and stable at any moment. He
is the center.
He dances with plenty of resources, he is ready for the unexpected. He never
gets close to his limits.
He never abandons his central position. The woman brushes his body, he never
brushes hers.
He embraces her waist, a sign that indicates possession.
Protection and domination at the same time. His torso erect, symbolizes the
power of the "Ego", dominion of space and security. His left hand closed
represents strength.
Feminine (page 164)
Feminine symbolizes reception, execution, smallness, weakness and
sensibility, harmony and equilibrium. Her life at home, the emotional.
Growth where the man sees facts. She gets pregnant and gives life.
In tango she receives the man's conduction, her feminine aspect lays in the
quality of her movement.
Women find with more ease elasticity and harmony in her movements than the
man does.
He is loaded with heavier cultural and social burdens.
The woman in tango leans on the man's body. She looks for her place like the
bird that looks for protection in his nest. The man's hand on her back
underlines the femininity of her forms. They seem more delicate in
comparison to the strength of the man's hand. The stronger his hand the more
fragile her body looks. Her movements are smooth and elastic.
The embrace is like a V with a closed side an an open side. The closed side
represents closeness and intimacy, the open side distance. One must learn to
notice and feel the differences within that embrace." end of quotation.
The same as in real life the man is poised, steps with decision, without
hesitation, he is strong and firm. Guides and is prepared for the
unexpected, he improvises. he never gets close to his limits.
He protects and respects the limits imposed by the woman to his embrace.
She is fragile, receptive, looks for protection in his embrace and in his
chest. She is smooth and elastic, dances with harmony and beauty.
When you go to a gay milonga in B.A., 'La Marshall' for instance on
Wednesdays nights, you will see couples dancing very good tango formed by
two men : one of them leading, showing his masculine role the other one
following performing his feminine role.
Or a couple formed by two women : one dressed with a suit and wearing a tie
or dressed as a woman but leading in an obviously masculine way the other
one following with a very feminine attitude.
They dance very well and create a perfect tango full of feeling, emotion
with perfect communication and connection.
The result would be very different if both partners danced with a masculine
or a femine attitude.
In this last case the resultant tango would be not as full of feeling,
passion and connection as before. the one done by the two followeers will
be weak and the one done by the two leaders would look as having the
components of a fight.
The American friends I have that at present live in Argentina told me not to
talk about this subject because people abroad will not understand it does
not matter in what way you explained.
This is all I am going to say, if you understood fine if you did not
understand disregard what I just translated from Nicole's book.
Have a good day, Sergio.
PS. at no time I mean to be patronizing or trying to impose any rules to
your dancing or to your life.
Please feel free to continue doing what pleases you the most. It is a shame
that I have to be so defensive in order to share my knowledge with you. To
all those that wrote to me I will answer in right time.
