54 tango scenes
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:18:29 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: tango scenes
I just now had a chance to view some of the
scenes referenced below. The scene of the
woman with the "top knot" hairdo looks like
a woman who pretty much didn't care about
eye contact in waiting to dance.
What do all the guys on the tango-l list think
about a woman like that coming towards them?
Deborah Holm
San Francisco, California, USA
>>From Stephen Brown:
>>Deborah Holm wrote:
>Why has there not been any discussion
>on this list of (plus or minus 1100 strong,
>worldwide) about this movie?
Why not, indeed?
Some of the tango scenes from Moulin Rouge can be found on Caroline
O'Connor's website
https://www.carolineoconnor.com.au/tango.htm
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:40:27 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Evolution of Tango Scenes (Was:Tango in LA)
Many tango dancers hope their tango community will grow, but a few become
dismayed at the direction that growth takes "their" community. Growth can
have surprising and disconcerting effects on a tango community: styles of
dancing multiply, people break into cliques based on styles and age, the
apparent quality of dancing seems to fall, competing events arise where
once it only seemed like cooperation, etc...
About the tango scene in Los Angeles, Larry Carroll wrote:
>The increasing size has one effect that you see in a more extreme way
>in Buenos Aires, which is probably the city with the largest number of
>tango dancers. There is an increasing tendency of cliques to form
>that have little or nothing to do with each other. Some cliques
>crystallize around a particular person or style of dance or geography.
>Other break up along age lines. Increasingly the younger dancers
>avoid dancing with anyone outside their age cohort, a natural tendency
>since they tend to be more focused on finding dates.
Fractioning into cliques seems to be inevitable aspect of tango's growth in
any city. I see it has sign of health. Not only does the growth
facilitate fractioning, but the fractioning facilitates growth. The
fractioning promotes the development of smaller subcultures within which
individual dancers can better identify on the basis of their own artistic
taste and age group. In the Golden Era of tango in Buenos Aires, tango
scenes broke along neigborhood lines, and styles were closely identified
with neighborhoods. Today tango scenes in Buenos Aires tend to break more
by age group and style.
Once a community begins outgrowing dance facilities and has at least two to
three times critical mass breaking into smaller subgroups (on the basis of
style, age, etc.) becomes inevitable.
>Dressing up? It varies a lot. It used to be that almost everyone
>here dressed formally for tango, ...
In many cities with diverse tango scenes, the style of dress help identify
to which group a person belongs. It certainly does outside tango.
>Quality of the dancers? I suspect the AVERAGE quality is less than
>that in Denver or other smaller cities. The more popular a dance
>scene gets the more casual dancers you get.
Larry's idea is absolutely true. A tango community with healthy growth may
actually see a decline in the average quality of dancing--either because it
gets dilletentes as Larry suggests, or people simply haven't yet had the
time to learn. It is also very difficult for the experienced dancers to
remember just how bad they were 7-10 years ago because those pioneers had
no local dancers with whom to compare themselves. In fact, many
experienced dancers in communities dance much better today than did some of
the traveling instructors 7-10 years ago.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 11:55:25 -0700
From: "Larry E. Carroll" <larrydla@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Evolution of Tango Scenes
Steve is quite right. Though my "Tango in LA" message was a personal
email, it had enough general comment to CC it to TANGO-L.
What we see in Los Angeles, and in even more advanced form in Buenos
Aires, is a preview in many ways for what the rest of us will
experience in our own cities. I wonder if those of you in San
Francisco, or New York, or elsewhere see them?
One of the things I noticed during my trip to BsAs included much
variety in dance styles. Every month or so in TANGO-L I see people
who've returned from there say things like "Everyone does X." I have
to wonder. Are these people so blind? Did they just go to certain
milongas? Are they trying to make a point by bending the truth? All
of the above?
Speaking of variety. Though the trends I mentioned in "Tango in LA"
are likely to be repeated everywhere, this doesn't mean each city
will begin to be more alike. Every evolving/maturing city/person
goes through much the same stages. But the way they respond
to them will be different. Paris and Berlin will never be clones.
Larry de Los Angeles
https://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 11:25:26 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Evolution of Tango Scenes
Larry's interesting message (below) caused me to think about change in a
slightly different direction. In reading the many discussions about tango
style - what is "authentic" in tango, and what is not - I think this same
principle applies. It appears that if there is, in fact, one single,
authentic style of tango in Buenos Aires that "everyone" dances (as the
"purists" insist and Larry challenges), then is it not likely that this
style evolved over time in response to the dance conditions in BsAs? (Just
as the milongas themselves evolve in Larry's description?)
So maybe the dance itself has adapted to conditions in which 3-400 dancers
crowd into a milonga to dance shoulder to shoulder. Under these conditions,
any dance would take on a more intimate character, with smaller movements,
and a premium placed on dancers who can navigate this crowded throng. The
little I know as a non-expert in tango history seems to indicate this is so.
We know that in early tango, for example, men did not lead ladies to the
cross. That would look rather odd to us now. So at least in some ways the
dance is different today from its roots. It would be illogical to think
that it evolved without reference to the conditions of place or time, or
that it was OK for the dance to evolve in the early years, but anathema to
allow that today.
If that is correct (and I'm sure many of you will have arguments to make
that it's not) then why are we in America tying ourselves in knots to
conform (and insist that others conform) to a style of dance that evolved
for conditions most of us do not encounter? I have danced in Washington DC,
NYC, Paris, London, Miami and SF. While the milongas may have been crowded
by American standards, they were really nothing like the crowds in a popular
milonga in BsAs. So why should we be constrained to dance as if they were?
A few weeks ago when we were discussing whether or not a visit to BsAs is
worth the time, effort and money, someone wrote to me and actually said that
if tango is becoming more popular in the US, the milongas will become more
crowded (more like the ones in BsAs) and therefore it would make sense to
learn to dance the way that works there. I wrote back to ask if she was
really suggesting that we learn a style that few partners here would
appreciate (thus limiting our dance opportunities) on the chance that
sometime in the (distant?) future it might become useful on this continent.
My head is spinning........
Most of us do not dance tango as a vintage dance. I believe it has survived
so long because it is alive and speaks passionately to people in many places
over a long time. This means it must be changing, even if the change is so
gradual that it's difficult for us to see. Will we look back in 20 years
and laugh about the controversy over "nuevo" tango?
Change is the one thing we can predict about life. We can not stop it. We
can recognize it and try to adapt or (better yet) try to take advantage of
it. But trying to stop change is futile. Why should we think tango is
different from everything else in this regard, and why should we want it to
be? We are not dancing in 1901. It's not only a new year, it's a new
millennium.
Viva evolution!
happy tangos (any style) to all,
Melinda
---- Original Message -----
From: Larry E. Carroll <larrydla@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Evolution of Tango Scenes
> What we see in Los Angeles, and in even more advanced form in Buenos
> Aires, is a preview in many ways for what the rest of us will
> experience in our own cities. I wonder if those of you in San
> Francisco, or New York, or elsewhere see them?
>
> One of the things I noticed during my trip to BsAs included much
> variety in dance styles. Every month or so in TANGO-L I see people
> who've returned from there say things like "Everyone does X." I have
> to wonder. Are these people so blind? Did they just go to certain
> milongas? Are they trying to make a point by bending the truth? All
> of the above?
>
> Speaking of variety. Though the trends I mentioned in "Tango in LA"
> are likely to be repeated everywhere, this doesn't mean each city
> will begin to be more alike. Every evolving/maturing city/person
> goes through much the same stages. But the way they respond
> to them will be different. Paris and Berlin will never be clones.
>
> Larry de Los Angeles
> https://home.att.net/~larrydla
>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 11:19:54 -0700
From: robin thomas <niborsamoht@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: evolution of tango scenes
the funny thing i noticed in bs.as. is that, yes,
there were definately many different styles of tango,
but, that not only did teachers not acknowledge the
credibility of the other styles, but seemed to think
that if someone was dancing differently that they were
simply dancing badly. being of a generous nature i
thought this was kind of quaint and extremely
argentine.
in holland they are definately developing "nuevo
milonguero."
i also noticed in el beso that really late at night
when there is more space the same milongueros who were
taking tiny steps sometimes start taking much bigger
steps, turning against the line of dance and, to my
great shock, once i even saw a gancho (beautifully
done).
(mr) robin thomas
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:27:06 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Evolution of Tango Scenes
Melinda wrote:
>[W]hy are we in America tying ourselves in knots to conform (and
>insist that others conform) to a style of dance that evolved
>for conditions most of us do not encounter?
In a world with relatively slow transportation, radically different styles
of tango would evolve in different areas of the world. That is exactly
what happened in the 20th century. In a world in which transportation is
more rapid, a less diverse set of styles is likely to develop
geographically. Communication between dancers in various parts of the
world keeps evolution going in the same direction rather than diverse
directions. What is more likely to develop is a general style that
incorporates a variety of techniques for use under different floor
conditions.
Such a world is likely to be as Robin Thomas reported, "[I]n el beso that
really late at night when there is more space the same milongueros who were
taking tiny steps sometimes start taking much bigger steps, turning against
the line of dance and, to my great shock, once i even saw a gancho
(beautifully done)."
Whether Argentines ought to have a monopoly on authenticity in the world I
am describing is a more complex issue.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:22:29 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Evolution of tango scenes
For the past few years San Francisco has had
a milonga every night of the week and, of course,
on the weekends, several.
The idea of "cliques" is important to discuss.
There are several tango instructors in San
Francisco. And beginning tango dancers
pick one instructor and begin their instruction.
These students are not always taught in a way
that will enable them to easily dance in a milonga
with all of the other dancers taught in San Francisco.
When they feel ready to attend a milonga (hopefully
NOT after their first lesson) they may or may not
have an easy time dancing with other dancers who
have learned from other instructors here in San
Francisco.
Maybe the instructors would prefer to keep their
students for a long time $$, and that is easy to
accomplish when there is no "standard" style or
technique of teaching. So it is attractive to keep
the novices in the fold.
Unfortunately, (and I say that only because it
does not seem to be the desire of many instructors)
there are many people who end up with a more
independent spirit, and it is really only
possible to act on that spirit by "going it alone."
Because, after spending time learning from one
instructor, everyone can see where he/she came
from. And, by that time, the student is also aware
of whatever competitive attitudes exist in the
community. "So-and-so is taking lessons from
so-and-so." !#?!%!*? How could they?
I hope evolution means that not only will there
be more people on the dance floor, but that the
reason to dance tango will become more of a need
for a man and a woman to simply do a basic nicety
on the dance floor instead of "burn it up."
But this wishful theory begs the question that a man
and a woman will even WANT to dance with each
other for reasons other than to "burn it up" on the
dance floor. Meaning, that a man and woman will
even WANT to dance with each other. Because,
to "burn it up" on the dance floor does not really have
anything to do with a man and a woman simply meeting
in a milonga and sharing a dance.
Does it?
Deborah
San Francisco, California, USA
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:35:50 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRYHART.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Evolution of Tango Scenes
I am interested to hear views on the evolution of the dance over the last 50
years. Change is not necessarily good and in the case of Tango, the line
between looking good and feeling good is so subtle that it can be easily
lost. The rise in popularity of Tango around the world may have been driven
by the success of Broadway shows in the late 1980's early 90's and
subsequent movies (Tango Lesson and Tango. It is easy to understand that
the majority of Argentinean teachers making a living from teaching
foreigners are willing to meet the students expectations by teaching them
what they see and believe to be Tango, but is, in reality, a stylised
choreographed form for demonstration. There may also an element of the
global change in relationships between men and women. Even though I enjoyed
CITA very much, nearly all of the instruction was taught in this way. In
Australia over the last year we have had a stream of second string (and one
or two better known) dancers from BsAs giving workshops and demonstrations.
They mostly seem to have had some formal dance training, either ballet or
otherwise. Most of the teaching is, in my view, ballroom style,
concentrating on figures and footwork. Some even suggest that the woman can
participate in initiating figures in social dancing. It seems to me that
demonstration styles have infected the dance and have become part of what is
accepted as the "new Tango". We have here a teacher who left Argentina many
years ago. Gaston clings to the Tango of his youth and, because of his
isolation from the development of Tango over the last 15 years, was not
infected by the change that has taken place over that time. His style of
teaching is quite different, slow and rigid. But those men and women who
are taught by him are dissatisfied with the more modern styles. The feel and
emotion generated by dancing in the old way are beyond compare and can not
be reproduced in any of the modern styles. The dance is in danger of losing
its way again, just as it has done before. Even though Gaston is passionate
about the dance in its "golden era" form he and partner Susan enjoy
demonstration. He has just completed a touring season of a wonderful stage
show, "Una Historia del Tango" with a sell-out audience in Canberra, the
national capital. The show traces the story of Tango from its folk and
migrant roots to the dance halls and cinemas of BSAs and its development in
Europe and the US as cabaret and ballroom, before returning to its roots. My
wife and I have been privileged to be part of the show. The audience,
including expatriate Argentineans and Uruguayans and the South American
diplomatic community were delighted with the show.
JL
Larry's interesting message (below) caused me to think about change in a
slightly different direction. <snip>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:34:00 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Evolution of tango scenes
--- Deborah Holm <deborah.holm@PRODIGY.NET> wrote:
> When they feel ready to attend a milonga (hopefully
> NOT after their first lesson) they may or may not
> have an easy time dancing with other dancers who
> have learned from other instructors here in San
> Francisco.
Deborah,
You know I'm your big fan! BUT... I went to the
milongas from my very first week.
I heard people say things like that about not going
out immediately. I refused to listen to them! I
finished my first class, looked at my watch and said
to myself... "(sigh), 167 hours until my next class...
this is NOT going to be enough!"
Nobody made me feel as if I weren't welcome or as if I
should have waited until I had attended more classes.
Whether I danced or not (I sat and watched a lot), I
was determined to be part of the scene. I had to know
what was going on and I was determined for people to
see me there and know I was doing it, too.
The studio chauvinism you spoke of might exist to some
extent in New York, too. Certainly, anyone will have
special regard for the place where he or she learns
and has a good time. That person is a devotee! I
hear people talk all the time about their own schools
and how much they enjoy them.
Is it hard for the students of competing schools to
dance with one another? If the percentage of your
class time is equal to or higher than the time you
devote to actual social dancing, of course it's hard.
However, I doubt that it's because the schools teach
different styles. When it's hard to dance with
someone, I think it could be because the "doing" is
taking up too little time in comparison to the
"studying".
I take classes two days a week and I go out 5-7 of
them. I see lots of styles. Certainly I have my
preferences, but it's never hard to find people to
dance with and getting away from my studio cultivates
flexibility. (It's fun, too.) People LOVE to dance
with one another. That's why they'll spend thousands
of dollars learning how to do it, buying clothes,
going out to clubs, and even traveling to another
continent. If you do it a lot with other people who
also love doing it, the differences in style tend to
smooth over and you find the room to make things work
with the person you like being with right now.
> "So-and-so is taking lessons from
> so-and-so." !#?!%!*? How could they?
Usually people speak very glowingly of their own
instructors because they naturally enjoy what they're
accomplishing. I think the chauvinistic attitude
you're describing does exist, but I have only
witnessed it rarely. I once danced with a woman who
criticized me quite severely about my choice of
instructor WHILE DANCING. What's more, she had
invited me. It's one of the very few times I decided
I wouldn't dance with someone again.
> to "burn it up" on the dance floor does not really
> have
> anything to do with a man and a woman simply meeting
> in a milonga and sharing a dance.
> Does it?
Not to me, it doesn't. On the other hand, there is
room for a lot of different styles. People tend to
find the partners they want to dance with. I see
people "burning it up" as you describe and I find
nothing appealing about it at all. Of course I can't
even do that, but I'm not envious. I wouldn't want to
dance like that even if I were able. My favorite
dances are actually the ones with the fewest steps!
I think this is why the dance has such a strong appeal
for the middle-aged. Those who have a few years
behind them really have an appreciation and enjoyment
for the "slow burn".
If people want to "burn it up" on the dance floor, I
say... LET 'EM. Why shouldn't EVERYBODY have a great
time? Meanwhile, I'll chase you, Deb, around the
dance floor until you let me lead and mold the two of
us into a nice, supple, slow dance. Yayyyy
Mark
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:46:40 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Evolution of tango scenes
Deborah Holm wrote:
>[I]n San Francisco ... beginning tango dancers
>pick one instructor and begin their instruction.
>These students are not always taught in a way
>that will enable them to easily dance in a milonga
>with all of the other dancers taught in San Francisco.
With a multiplicity of styles of dancing tango and different approaches to
teaching tango, such an outcome seems inevitable in a large tango community
like San Francisco. Creating a standardized curriculum would alleviate
this problem, but it would create another problem that would be much
worse--the loss of individual styles.
Instructors in smaller communities often have to grapple with the issue of
whether to introduce additional styles knowing that their students will not
be able to dance well with the existing community of dancers, but knowing
that introducing a new style may help expand the community by reaching
dancers with different tastes.
I do think, however, that the various styles of Argentine tango have not
pulled far enough apart that they have become recognizably different
dances, and with the high level of communication in today's world, I do not
think that they will. If we looked at tango as being a language, we could
draw the analogy that people who dance milonguero style emphasize one set
of words in their conversations, while people who dance nuevo tango
emphasize a different set of words in their conversations. The styles
>[T]o "burn it up" on the dance floor does not really have
>anything to do with a man and a woman simply meeting
>in a milonga and sharing a dance. Does it?
I find that an enjoyable dance with each woman has a different meaning.
Some are athletic endeavors, some are spiritual, some are intimate, some
are more carnal in their feeling.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
