3563 Tango Styles II
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:09:02 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles II
Joe says :
"I note that every single one of these guys pictured in Rick's photos
use a v-frame.
So much for "buttons-to-buttons" as an essential property of
milonguero technique. "
In first place I want to thank all those that answered the question : "What
are the differences between Close embrace traditional salon tango and Tango
Milonguero".
In particular Susan with whom I had the privilege to dance Milonguero,
Canyengue and Salon Styles on the rare occasions when she visits us at the
shores of Lake Erie. She brilliantly gave us the rare perspective from the
follower's position.
It is a pity that most of them and many from Argentina sent private E-Mails.
The purpose of the question was to clarify this matter because many people
in the USA believe that "close embrace" and "Milonguero style" are one and
unique form of dancing and that Salon is only in open embrace with all sort
of embellishments . This is not true.
It is my impression that most people in Argentina and abroad (including
Denver, Colorado) dance close embrace traditional salon style. Many of them
can only dance that way but many are able to dance salon in open embrace as
well.- (This form can be done simple or with firuletes).
I know many of the dancers that appear in the pictures taken by Rick, some
of them are from my neighborhood of Villa Urquiza. They dance Salon close
embrace. The V-frame is a characteristic of that style. Our area is well
known for the Salon Style that is its characteristic.
Should those pictures have been part of a video you could have appreciated
the other characteristics of Salon Style as well.
Finally the government of the city of Buenos Aires organized as Janis says :
The III Campeonato de Tango Salon " she further explains "Within these
parameters to be observed, couples will be
allowed to perform all those figures of popular use including barridas,
sacadas on the floor and enrosques. Figures excluded are ganchos, saltos,
trepadas, trucos and any kind of choreographic possibilities appropriate in
stage tango "
Those embellishments and the embrace required are typical of Traditional
Salon Style (a few are used sparingly in Milonguero as well).
Tom Stermitz tells us that in his opinion 95 % of the couples in Buenos
Aires dance : Milonguero Style" if this were so (here is my new question)
what is the reason the Secretary of Culture organized a Campeonato that
would ignore 95% of the dancers of the city ?
Summary: Most people all over the world teach and dance Traditional tando
salon in open, close or elastic embrace. Some people dance other styles, and
this is perfectly all right.
Have a nice summer day, Sergio.
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:13:13 -0500
From: el turco <shusheta@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles II
Sergio, thanks alot for clarifying and showing the evidence which some
people tend to ignore.
This reminded me couple moments:
first from Ann Arbor, MI May Madness tango weekend last year. I was
there to polish my close embrace, have fun with my friends from Ann
Arbor. I was chatting with someone, and he told me that i dance
different than others in the milonga, and he added that i dance like
milongueros dance. I was dancing mostly in V-embrace, but most of the
people were dancing sternum to sternum (button to button :).
Second is from Chicago, Susan Miller workshop last April. I went to
attend her workshops from Minneapolis to Chicago (7h drive), and plus
I encouraged 2 other persons to come to the workshop, and I'm a tango
nuevo fan)
The first lesson of the workshop first 5 minutes, she started picking
on me, I should change this V-type it's not Argentine way, etc.
I was there to learn and listen how and what she thinks about tango.
After 2nd lesson, she accused me dancing bolero not tango, and if i go
to BsAs i won't be able dance even one song, she didn't let me speak,
and she said leave my class if you don't want to accept milonguero
style.
Well, I'm Turkish, and my culture has huge respect to old people, so i
kept myself quite 2 day long workshops, and standing there trying to
learn as a student, I didn't leave the lesson although she was causing
extreme polarization. However, she couldn't make me polarized.
To sum up, be careful with limiting, intoxicating ideas in tango, and
open your mind to cross-talk with other style dancers.
Don't let anybody tell you which is RIGHT which is NOT. Tango is
sociological and cultural phenomenon, and it offers a choice for
everyone..
Burak
Minneapolis
www.tangoshusheta.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:12:28 -0700
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles II
SOME, "milonguero" / close embrace style dancers really think theirs is the real tango, the authentic tango etc. Could it be SOME of these dancers lack in certain areas e.g. physical skills?
And according to some Nuevo fans theirs is modern way, rest is for the old, sexist etc. Could it be some of them dance this way because they have serious trouble with musicality, or lack ability to emotional connection with another.
Unless someone dislikes "other" styles for wrong reasons, I think different styles need not be mutually excusive in every way, For example it would be possible to dance tango the "old" way with new techniques?, just a thought....
There are positive sides to every style, it makes no sense to consider another style as inferior without the experience of that style. same goes for the so called young/creative/"rebel" dancers who have no real experience of the tango in current form, but go on to invent new and new new "tango" styles.
>>>>
I was dancing mostly in V-embrace, but most of the
people were dancing sternum to sternum (button to button :).
>>>>
Hmm..to put it another way, there is always going to be a V, only difference the angle of the V;). You can never dance parallel unless dancers embrace each other with both arms [??]. Smaller the angle, I more limited are the possibilities in the dance, not that this is bad. So I guess it is only a matter of compromise between range of movements possible versus physical contact dancers wish to share.
I dance with a small V, I would love open up my V a bit more, generally with little success. I am assuming this is because most dancers do not use arms on the open side and offer no resistance to maintain the V. Any idea?
el turco <shusheta@GMAIL.COM> wrote:Sergio, thanks alot for clarifying and showing the evidence which some
people tend to ignore.
This reminded me couple moments:
first from Ann Arbor, MI May Madness tango weekend last year. I was
there to polish my close embrace, have fun with my friends from Ann
Arbor. I was chatting with someone, and he told me that i dance
different than others in the milonga, and he added that i dance like
milongueros dance. I was dancing mostly in V-embrace, but most of the
people were dancing sternum to sternum (button to button :).
Second is from Chicago, Susan Miller workshop last April. I went to
attend her workshops from Minneapolis to Chicago (7h drive), and plus
I encouraged 2 other persons to come to the workshop, and I'm a tango
nuevo fan)
The first lesson of the workshop first 5 minutes, she started picking
on me, I should change this V-type it's not Argentine way, etc.
I was there to learn and listen how and what she thinks about tango.
After 2nd lesson, she accused me dancing bolero not tango, and if i go
to BsAs i won't be able dance even one song, she didn't let me speak,
and she said leave my class if you don't want to accept milonguero
style.
Well, I'm Turkish, and my culture has huge respect to old people, so i
kept myself quite 2 day long workshops, and standing there trying to
learn as a student, I didn't leave the lesson although she was causing
extreme polarization. However, she couldn't make me polarized.
To sum up, be careful with limiting, intoxicating ideas in tango, and
open your mind to cross-talk with other style dancers.
Don't let anybody tell you which is RIGHT which is NOT. Tango is
sociological and cultural phenomenon, and it offers a choice for
everyone..
Burak
Minneapolis
www.tangoshusheta.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:50:27 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles II
Iron Logic wrote:
> Hmm..to put it another way, there is always going to be a V, only
> difference the angle of the V ;). You can never dance parallel
> unless dancers embrace each other with both arms [??]. Smaller the
> angle, more limited are the possibilities in the dance, not that
> this is bad. So I guess it is only a matter of compromise between
> range of movements possible versus physical contact dancers wish
> to share.
I disagree, on the basis that the body at rest doesn't naturally have
any torsion at all. In that case, you end up having to reeducate your
body to dance in a way you don't move in day to day life. A lot more
work, and IMO only within reach of those who have the time to practice
6 hours a day.
1) For a beginner, and even many who've been dancing for a long time,
when walking down the line of dance with a large V, his left foot often
tends to float away from next to the womans left foot out towards the
middle of the floor, since his hips will tend to follow his shoulders,
and his feet will align with his hips. Some consequences that might
ensue:
-- Navigationally speaking, his left foot will pull him to the center
of the room away from the safety of the outside wall, especially
if he's walking a bit pigeontoed.
-- Connectionwise, his center might begin moving side to side more
than strictly necessary. His partner may find it ambiguous, and
therefore confusing.
-- When he does a tango close (open step to the right and close, he
will take his left foot as the baseline for his step right. Since
he'll start off with his center out of alignment with the womans
center, he'll finish that way, and then his next step will start
with the couple out of alignment.
-- Last (but not least for far too many people), that floating left
foot just plain looks ugly as sin.
This does apply more to beginners. As you are not a beginner anymore,
maybe this doesn't apply to you at all.
Nonetheless, I find working with my natural body dynamics far easier
than working against them. Starting out relaxed in a natural posture,
good form comes more easily.
2) when twisting to the left to lead the woman around you, starting
from a large V limits the distance to lead your partner with. What
if you need more twist without unwinding your feet to answer the needs
of the moment?
OTOH, a deep V might give you a lot more right-hand twist to play with,
but that's something you can go in and out of if your partner allows a
bit of plasticity in the embrace.
By the way, this deals with a pet peeve of mine concerning "milonguero
style". By "plasticity in the embrace", I mean that the extreme of
keeping my sternum screwed, glued and tatooed to my partner's sternum
doesn't really appeal so much. In its own way it limits the intimacy
of the dance just as much as any tactic one might use to avoid dancing
in close embrace.
There's a special appeal to the moment of welcoming someone into the
embrace. Why on Earth limit ourselves to enteering the embrace only
once every song? Using figures that vary the point of contact or
(horrors!) require a momentary separation of an inch or 2 only adds
to the overall experience.
Food for thought, I hope.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:34:04 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles II
Thanks to Lois and Christopher for the clear input.
My experience with Susana Miller's teaching is that
the embrace is fluid and can vary from flat on
(buttons to buttons) for walking (and for beginners!)
to a wide V for advanced dancers and complex figures.
But, as I. Logic pointed out: if the women have floppy
right arms, it's much more difficult to open the V. To
do it, you have to use a different part of your
connection. You can use just your right arm (a bit
brutish), or switch from CBM to HLM for a moment as
you go forward with your right leg, or backward with
your left. It's easier when turning.
In response to Tine: Trini and I started in open
embrace, and it took me years of flat on dancing to
get rid of the sloppy technique I developed dancing
open. So we always start teaching beginners close
embrace. When they want to learn open, the transition
is painless. Forgive my boasting, but if you allow me
one week with a dancer who has 1 year of experience in
close embrace, I will teach him to dance open better
than a comparable dancer with one year of experience
in open embrace. But on the average, it will take me 3
years to teach an open embrace dancer to dance at the
level of the one year close embrace dancer. Two years
to break the bad habits, and one year to start over
from scratch. Now chill your flame jets folks, this is
just one man's opinion.
We are now experimenting with starting people who are
brand new to tango in the V embrace. But if they have
prior experience, we make them dance flat on, to
discourage their dependence on their arms. (You don't
need to use your arms at all to make your follower go
anywhere you can go when flat on. You can lead
everything with your spine.) This has lead to another
popular misconception about the milonguero style: that
the milongueros don't use their arms. As far as I
understand it, this dance is danced with the whole
body, which includes the arms. The reason we take the
arms away from beginners to this style is that a lot
of people connect only through their arms. Dancing
flat on for a while allows them to get acquainted with
the rest of their bodies.
For El Turco: As I pointed out above, I've seen Susana
Miller teach people to roll open the V embrace, and
I've danced that way with her. She is usually not very
shy about correcting me when we dance, but she has not
commented on my V embrace, except to make me use both
arms and my core to open the embrace, not just my left
arm. If she made you dance flat on, it was probably
her method to fix something else, other than your
embrace. Or maybe the rest of the class wasn't ready
for the V. In my experience, there really isn't time
in a workshop setting for the teacher to explain every
individual correction.
In any event, when I take a workshop, I've researched
the teachers, and I've agreed to pay them for their
opinion. I'm not going to waste my money and
everyone's time arguing with that opinion. (I have you
listeros for that, gracias. :) And I never forget that
it's just one opinion. If people in a workshop become
polarized because of the teacher's opinions, then they
have an attitude problem, and probably have difficulty
thinking for themselves.
My two cents worth (I accept PayPal :)
Sean
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:25:43 -0500
From: Susan Munoz <susanmunoz@9DOTSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles II and Arms = Question
Sean said: "My experience with Susana Miller's teaching is that the
embrace is fluid and can vary from flat on (buttons to buttons) for
walking (and for beginners!) to a wide V for advanced dancers and
complex figures."
------------------
My perception is that that's highly likely. As I prefaced in an earlier
E-mail, I am relatively new at this style and my partner is new to tango
period so we have a lot to learn. However, when some advanced leaders
were leading me in some pretty complex moves recently, I don't recall
much of a "V" -- but then again, I was probably thinking too strongly
about how I was supposed to follow what he was leading. What I
particularly appreciated about what Sean said is learning in the flat-on
style gets rid of sloppy arm techniques. My partner was shoving me with
his left arm (I really dislike (okay, hate) that). That's now stopped
completely. When we get comfortable enough in this style, maybe we can
go back and pick up the salon open and that beginner's sloppy arm will
have gone away. [Sean... "the check's in the mail!" ;-)]
Speaking of arms, can someone please address this: When Susana Miller
led me, she had her arm crossed over the top of her head (at least it
felt that way). It was a very unusual feel. My partner was fascinated
by this and decided to try it. I doubt that we did it correctly (if
there is a correct way???), but he stopped after about 10 feet and said,
this is amazing; it drives the lower half of my body down -- it makes it
heavy -- and keeps my chest up. (This works perfect for me because of
my height. On the other hand, if a tall leader were to take this lead
with a short follower, the poor gal could be dangling 3 feet off the
floor -- not a pretty sight and certainly not one welcomed by the
shorter woman. This doesn't count that the couple could tire more
easily.
I seem to recall seeing that in one or two couples when I went to BA a
few years ago. Can someone address where this (left arm lead) style
came from.... A little about the history etc. Do they still do it
today? Is there a correct way?
Thanks
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:12:38 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles II and Arms = Question
In my experience, I have found the reason why some people are changing their
embrace say from so called "V-shape" to more open and to something else from
time to time.
Because they are not able to do the movement in V-shape ( if I understand
this term correctly ).
They do not know how.
Igor Polk
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:44:28 -0700
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles II
Chistopher, yes indeed, there needs some adjustments/compensation when you dance with a wider V. Nevertheless, the same challenges exist when you dance so called "button to button" position, but these issues more pronounced with a wider V.
With a V.... you are forced take a longer step on the open side an smaller on the closed side. Because step is longer, you need extra compensation. For example in my case, I walk leg first, so as I stretch forward left I tend to twist my torso counter clockwise to maintain a relatively vertical axis, this works better than leaning backwards. The other thing I do is to keep hips parallel, even though the torsos form a V. This should will solve some of the potential navigational issues.
Well at least this is what I do, may or may not be the "right" way.
And I do not that feel dancing with open V is any less intimate than the "button to button" position, it also looks far more beautiful and the closing and opening the V, I can imagine, is like wings of a happy butterfly. Key is to keep contact on the rib cage all the time.
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:37:19 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles III
Janis tells us:
"Hallelujah!!!! Close embrace and tango milonguero are different in every
way from the embrace down to the feet. If you want close embrace, it's
easy to find a teacher. If you want tango milonguero, there are only a
handful of milongueros who teach."
Thank you Janis for the clarification. This has to be natural, as close
embrace is one of the modalities of "Traditional Tango de Salon".
The great majority of tango instructors teach "Tango Salon style".
Close and/ or open embrace. There are fewer instructors that teach
"Milonguero Style" in Argentina, although they have been increasing somewhat
in number in the last few years. There are very few that teach "Nuevo Tango"
as well.
El Turco describes his experience with a workshop by Susana Miller, among
other things he says :
"I was there to learn and listen how and what she thinks about tango.
After 2nd lesson, she accused me dancing bolero not tango, and if i go
to BsAs i won't be able dance even one song, she didn't let me speak,
and she said leave my class if you don't want to accept milonguero
style."
This sounds very familiar, does it not?
She will lead you to believe that unless you dance the way she teaches you
will not be able to dance in Bs.As.
The correct (IMO) advise should be: You should dance in a very compact way
when the floor is very crowded. I will teach you * one* way to do it.
(Certainly not the most popular, as most milongueros dance close embrace
salon). :))
The student unfamiliar with the "Milonguero Style" will be surprised to
notice that the technique is different from that of traditional salon style.
He will go through the experience as described by El Turco. I have seen El
Turco dancing in Buenos Aires, I can assure you, he did not rest at all, he
danced continuously. The reason I noticed him was he asked one of my
friends to dance (I do not know him personally).
In summary: if you announce an event as "Tango Milonguero" you should make
sure the event is about that style, otherwise advertise "Close Embrace"
tango which is more generic and includes both Traditional Salon close
embrace and milonguero.
This will spare some of us the disappointment of traveling to find that what
is being offered is not what we had expected. I have never seen so far a big
event of 'Tango Milonguero". Most people dance traditional salon close
embrace. I am repetitive on purpose because I have been talking about this
for several years now. There has been great progress, however some people
persist in spreding misconceptions.
Having said that I assure you that I certainly enjoy dancing Milonguero
Style, it has many interesting elements, but that is another story...
Have a great weekend , Sergio.
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:09:04 -0400
From: Joanne Pogros <joanneprochaska@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles II and Arms = Question
SUSAN MUNOZ WROTE:
" Speaking of arms, can someone please address this: When Susana Miller
led me, she had her arm crossed over the top of her head (at least it
felt that way). "
Susan, please explain what you mean by this description.
I never saw Susana Miller dance with "her arm crossed over the top of her head".
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:51:03 -0500
From: Susan Munoz <susanmunoz@9DOTSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles II and Arms = Question
Several weeks ago I asked the question "..... Speaking of arms, can
someone please address this: When Susana Miller led me, she had her arm
crossed over the top of her head (at least it felt that way). " Joanne
Pogros asked: "Susan, please explain what you mean by this description.
I never saw Susana Miller dance with "her arm crossed over the top of
her head".
I didn't receive any responses on Tango-L (save a couple of private
E-mails for purposes of clarification) because first of all I don't
think I articulated it very well [it was her left arm that I had
reference to] and second, it's hard to visualize so when I went to St.
Louis for another workshop with Susana over the 4th and again we took
several hours of privates, I had the opportunity to ask her about this
to which she responded (paraphrased). "Who know?! You are much taller
than I. I could have been leading you as I felt the music or to test if
you were just following or if you were dancing 'with' me or how you were
doing with the music. Keep me mind, that with the lead I teach, that I
move contra-body and my shoulders may be coming in what feels like a
slithering or snake-like fashion. With you being much taller than I, I
may have moved my arm in, up or around, or whatever I was feeling with
the music at the time."
What I have found since then is that leaders of taller stature than I
have attempted it and it feels weird (i.e., it doesn't work = awful); a
couple guys of much shorter stature than I, however, have a similar lead
and it feels unbelievably awesome (to me -- and that's all I can speak
to). So, in this case....... height perhaps makes a difference but I
think it's something that's got to be natural. At any rate, she led me
again several times in privates and I experienced the same thing. My
partner, watching it, said, her left arm is moving and everything is
contra-body and is with the music and sometimes is up and is sometimes
up and over. What I do know for sure is that her arm is not in a fixed
position out to the side.
Hope this helped to clarify.
Susan
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:13:09 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>
Jack you say "You can intellectualize it any way you want but there have been thousands of posts on Tango-L covering the subject of these 3 'styles' of dancing Tango. Is everybody wrong?"
No, Jack everybody is not wrong, just few people are.
There are those that (in the mid 90s.) when I started talking about tango styles that were developing in B.A. denied that there were different tango styles. Their argument was that "Tango was tango it did not matter the form or shape you dance. After all it is an improvised dance and there are many ways to dance".
The result of that attitude was a great confusion for the students and the organizers of teaching events. Just to give a couple of simple examples:
One week the students were told by Nito and Elba (traditional tango) to step toe first, to keep a variable embrace in V, to execute long steps,etc.
The following week Susana Miller (Milonguero tango) told those same students to step flat footed, to keep a continuous close embrace during the whole dance,to execute short steps, etc.
Then there were those that at the time heard Gustavo Naveira saying that 'Nuevo' was not a new style, it was a way of teaching traditional tango.
He stated many times that he did not intend to develop a new tango style.
This group, not realizing that despite the initial intention of the creator; that way of teaching traditional tango did indeed originate a new style,"Nuevo Tango" continue even today repeating the same: Nuevo is a way of teaching not a style.
Never mind that it is taught and learnt as a different style, that there are places where it is danced as a style.
I find totally absurd that some people criticize the way others dance tango;
You may say I like/dislike the way so and so dances but you should have respect for the other dancers and their preferences.
You dance the way you prefer as well, using a style that is appropriated to a particular milonga under certain conditions or room available to dance.
I consider legitimate complains in reference to some people not knowing how to navigate the floor; but the criticism should be directed against the lack of training of a particular dancer and not against a specific tango style.
Best regards, Sergio
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection.
https://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:13:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>
--- On Mon, 10/5/09, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jack you say "You can intellectualize it any way you want
> but there have been thousands of posts on Tango-L covering
> the subject of these 3 'styles' of dancing Tango.? Is
> everybody wrong?"
>
> No, Jack everybody is not wrong, just few people are.
>
Actually, I just think that some people forget that language is alive and changing and that the meanings of words can change over time. I mean "kickin' boots" ain't talking about footwear. Common usage is the most powerful way of defining something.
Same with "nuevo". If someone refers to nuevo style, every single person on this list and many more outside of this list knows what is being referred to. Trying to argue that nuevo is not a style is moot. It's grown beyond what Chicho or Fabian say.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:56:03 +0200
From: ECSEDY ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
I see there is still this misconcept about nuevo being irregular, using
large moves and causing greef to regular dancers. Well that is a
misconcept fueled by ignorance. Just check out La Viruta any time
outside the general 'tourist period' and you'll see that while most of
the people are nuevo dancers, they are pretty much able to navigate
without problems, collisions in a lot denser crowd than anywhere else on
the planet. I've elaborated on this in one of my previous details. There
is a tendency for dancers whom are more eccentric, more extrovert to be
drawn to nuevo. But it is not nuevo that is causing this. It is the
dancers.
Also, the nuevo concept of teaching allows you to learn the basics much
faster, but in the meantime these fast learners do not have the time to
collect the experience of handling the social environment of the
milonga. Obviously, the ability to do things at a class and the ability
to do it at a milonga are two separate things. At a class students will
most likely not experience a large crowd, and thus do not learn to
navigate appropriately in it. However, they do learn the opposite: they
don't have to pay too much attention to other couples as there is ample
space for everyone.
Personally, beginning from the second or third lesson I make people
dance in a reduced space, usually at half a squaremeter (~0,6 sqyards)
per person. When people have to use their knowledge in such a test
environment, they can easily adapt to small spaces at a milonga.
Obviously, most teachers (nuevo or not) don't do this. The only
difference is, that nuevo dancers are usually ABLE to do it large, while
milonguero dancers are much less able.
> Jack you say "You can intellectualize it any way you want but there have been thousands of posts on Tango-L covering the subject of these 3 'styles' of dancing Tango. Is everybody wrong?"
>
In 1632 Galileo Galilei was tried, found guilty by the Inquisition for
heresy, was forced to recant and was under house arrest for the rest of
his life (10 more years). The reason was: he believed in a helicentric
world view (the Copernican model), which was not accepted at the time...
So was he wrong, or the rest of the world was wrong (with some minor
exceptions like Copernicus himself - lucky enough to be born in Poland -
or Giordano Bruno, who wasn't so lucky and thus was burned at the stake)?
Cheers,
Aron
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-36-006
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 16:14:03 +0200 (CEST)
From: Valentin TIEDE <tdval@wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
> Message du 06/10/09 13:05
> De : "ECSEDY ?ron"
> A : "Tango-L"
> Copie ? :
> Objet : Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
>
>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Jack you say "You can intellectualize it any way you want but there have been thousands of posts on Tango-L covering the subject of these 3 'styles' of dancing Tango. Is everybody wrong?"
> >
>
> In 1632 Galileo Galilei was tried, found guilty by the Inquisition for
> heresy, was forced to recant and was under house arrest for the rest of
> his life (10 more years). The reason was: he believed in a helicentric
> world view (the Copernican model), which was not accepted at the time...
>
> So was he wrong, or the rest of the world was wrong (with some minor
> exceptions like Copernicus himself - lucky enough to be born in Poland -
> or Giordano Bruno, who wasn't so lucky and thus was burned at the stake)?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What a comparison ! How many people were that time (1632) busy with astronomy in their everyday life ? And how many thousends of people today dance tango in their everyday life ? This changes the question of what is the opinion of the majority ...
The tango today (with some, fortunatelly not all, discussions in Tango-L) follows the development of the chritian religion - from Jerusalem to Rome (and all the heretics and also all the saints...) and than the Eastern Orthodox..., and the protestants... and the churches un the States (baptistes, m?thodistes and so on ...) And all they claim to have the same Jesus !!! Oh, my god! Who is the next Tango-prophet?
Do we have a tango-problem today, that is like the difference between the introvert individual religious experience and the "who is right and who is better" in the question of the extrovert expression of this experience? Do we have two styles of tango experience (only) - introvert and extrovert ?
(Please don't give me an answer - I have mine ...! And by the way - I like much the word "intellectualize" used above). Valentin
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:14:05 +0200
From: ECSEDY ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
> What a comparison ! How many people were that time (1632) busy with astronomy in their everyday life ? And how many thousends of people today dance tango in their everyday life ? This changes the question of what is the opinion of the majority ...
>
My example was definitely not about astronomy. It was about beliefs. It
was about a dogmatized, majority belief that held on for centuries, and
the recognition of the errors in this belief by a minority. It was about
a few people who started to think differently instead of continuing the
tradition and who's ideas were rejected, but later vindicated.
Obviously, I do not think I am anywhere near Galileo, but I wanted to
underline that just because a lot of people in the list had been taught
as Sergio suggested, to artificially classify dancing into THESE three
styles, instead of finding some other, more tangible descriptions, the
concept maybe wrong altogether.
Cheers,
Aron
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-36-006
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 11:47:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
--- On Tue, 10/6/09, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:
They are
> wrong... it's as simple as that. Just because the
> 'masses' say so, doesn't nake it
> right.
Well, actually, when it comes to language, what the masses say is quite often "right". Language is a way of communication. And if enough people can understand it, then it's a valid part of language. Gestures work the same way. It's that simple. Why do you think the new Oxford dictionary is so humongous?
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 05:53:22 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
ECSEDY ?ron wrote:
> My example was definitely not about astronomy. It was about beliefs. It
> was about a dogmatized, majority belief that held on for centuries, and
> the recognition of the errors in this belief by a minority. It was about
> a few people who started to think differently instead of continuing the
> tradition and who's ideas were rejected, but later vindicated.
>
The difference here is that astronomy is a topic where there is a clear
objective truth, while the question of whether "Nuevo" is a style or
purely a method of teaching is a human construct, with no objective
reality beyond usage.
> Obviously, I do not think I am anywhere near Galileo, but I wanted to
> underline that just because a lot of people in the list had been taught
> as Sergio suggested, to artificially classify dancing into THESE three
> styles, instead of finding some other, more tangible descriptions, the
> concept maybe wrong altogether.
>
Conversely, just because some people said that Nuevo was a teaching
method and not a style does not mean that there is not now an
identifiable style which is called Nuevo, both by practitioners and
non-practitioners.
Myk,
in Canberra
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:08:08 -0400
From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
To: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ebb7980c0910061408m280da1besde27c6391689d787@mail.gmail.com>
( Sorry, this has nothing to do with tango. But I want to set the
record straight. )
> The difference here is that astronomy is a topic where there is a clear objective truth.
No, there is no such thing!
The choice of a central object around which other objects revolve is
simply the one of a convenience.
The Earth does not rotate around the Sun.
In Newton's mechanics, they both rotate against their combined center of masses.
Remember that the Sun rotates around the center of galaxy and our
galaxy rotates in the universe.
Ptolemy's model was well developed. By Copernicus' time, it contained
sets of 3-4 nested circles and could predict all planet movements with
high precision.
I read somewhere that adding a couple more sets of circles would make
it so precise you could send spaceships to the Moon and back using it!
When Copernicus introduced his views, his system wasn't developed enough.
He had nested circles as well, but a single man couldn't beat in
precision the system that was developed over the centuries.
As a result, initially Copernicus' system was worse for predicting
planet movements than Ptolemy's.
Only after Kepler replaced the circles with ellipses it started to
beat Ptolemy's in elegance and precision.
Now get back to tango,
Sergey
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 09:00:09 -0300
From: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] La Viruta (WAS Tango Styles II)
To: tango-l@mit.edu
ECSEDY ?ron <aron@milonga.hu> says:
> I see there is still this misconcept about nuevo being irregular, using
> large moves and causing greef to regular dancers. Well that is a
> misconcept fueled by ignorance. Just check out La Viruta any time
> outside the general 'tourist period' and you'll see that while most of
> the people are nuevo dancers, they are pretty much able to navigate
> without problems, collisions in a lot denser crowd than anywhere else on
> the planet.
La Viruta??!!! Surely you jest. If you want to dispel the myth that
Argentines have this magic "Tango navigation gene" as some (not recent)
posts have suggested, La Viruta is the place to do it: the worst
possible navigators on the planet. Oh, but just for the record, not
because they are doing "nuevo" per se (even though they are mostly young
dancers, largely Argentine) but because they are mostly beginners
dancing the trademark La Viruta style of looking down at their feet
instead of where they are going. In fact I would sometimes mutter,
"Viruteros" when such a couple (at a different milonga) would bump into
me (or into my protectively outstretched arm) after the man took 2 back
steps in a row against line of dance without looking. And I'd generally
get a knowing nod and smile from my partner.
I stopped going to La Viruta in large part because of this
"bump-a-tanguero" phenomenon (the dancers there are good natured, I will
say, so couples who bump into each other smile rather than glare at each
other), so I don't have recent experience: perhaps all the good
navigators were merely waiting for me to leave before they started going
there? :-)
Shahrukh
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:05:49 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] La Viruta (WAS Tango Styles II)
To: "Shahrukh Merchant" <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>,
<tango-l@mit.edu>
Shahrukh:
Not that I want to turn this into a competition, but on my trip to BA,
Gricel was the worst. Navigation??? There should have been a lighthouse and
buoys on the floor to mark the channel with a foghorn for emphasis. On top
of the navigation problems, the tables were so close to each other, it was
difficult to get out from your table and go to the dance floor.
Michael
I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shahrukh Merchant" <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] La Viruta (WAS Tango Styles II)
>
> La Viruta??!!! Surely you jest. If you want to dispel the myth that
> Argentines have this magic "Tango navigation gene" as some (not recent)
> posts have suggested, La Viruta is the place to do it: the worst possible
> navigators on the planet.
>
> Shahrukh
>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 08:23:47 +1100
From: Niki Papapetrou <niki.papapetrou@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] La Viruta (WAS Tango Styles II)
To: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<3eff99210910151423j1be8d2bei3b8e8fcd221860d1@mail.gmail.com>
I wouild have to agree with Shahrukh. I must admit, during the year that I
spent in BsAs, i only went to Viruta 3-4 times. I never even considered it a
milonga, i always used to refer to it a s a night club - a pick up joint
that happens to play tango music.
abrazos
On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Shahrukh Merchant <
shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com> wrote:
> ECSEDY ?ron <aron@milonga.hu> says:
>
> > I see there is still this misconcept about nuevo being irregular, using
> > large moves and causing greef to regular dancers. Well that is a
> > misconcept fueled by ignorance. Just check out La Viruta any time
> > outside the general 'tourist period' and you'll see that while most of
> > the people are nuevo dancers, they are pretty much able to navigate
> > without problems, collisions in a lot denser crowd than anywhere else on
> > the planet.
>
> La Viruta??!!! Surely you jest. If you want to dispel the myth that
> Argentines have this magic "Tango navigation gene" as some (not recent)
> posts have suggested, La Viruta is the place to do it: the worst
> possible navigators on the planet. Oh, but just for the record, not
> because they are doing "nuevo" per se (even though they are mostly young
> dancers, largely Argentine) but because they are mostly beginners
> dancing the trademark La Viruta style of looking down at their feet
> instead of where they are going. In fact I would sometimes mutter,
> "Viruteros" when such a couple (at a different milonga) would bump into
> me (or into my protectively outstretched arm) after the man took 2 back
> steps in a row against line of dance without looking. And I'd generally
> get a knowing nod and smile from my partner.
>
> I stopped going to La Viruta in large part because of this
> "bump-a-tanguero" phenomenon (the dancers there are good natured, I will
> say, so couples who bump into each other smile rather than glare at each
> other), so I don't have recent experience: perhaps all the good
> navigators were merely waiting for me to leave before they started going
> there? :-)
>
> Shahrukh
>
--
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki
( https://tangotrails.blogspot.com )
