2041 Tango versus Argentine tango
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:08:33 -0800
From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Tango versus Argentine tango
When we use the word tango in this list, it is understood to be Argentine
tango. But those who have been on the list for a while know that there are
many kinds of tango: American tango, English (International) tango. In San
Francisco, Chinese tango is quite popular in certain districts. Philipino
tango also has its distinctive steps. Tango associated with other countries
have also been described. How is Argentine tango different from these other
tangos? How are the dancers different? What do you think?
What I've noticed is that...
Argentine tango dancers tend to be fanatics, who will dance Argentine tango
all night long without tiring of it. Those who dance the other kinds of
tangos, usually would not prefer to dance tango twice in succession. In
other words if one dance is tango, they expect (and prefer) the next dance
to be something like swing or salsa or one of 14 other dances.
At a non-Argentine tango dance, the style of dancing constantly changes.
Some people will keep the same partner for the entire dance. They get their
variety from the music and the various dances, so they don't need to
constantly change partners. In contrast, at a milonga, it seems there is
more of a need to change partners. Some even think that if you don't change
partners, it is rude!
Argentine tango music and dancing is much more varied in style than American
and English tango; that makes it possible to dance tango all night.
Argentine tango can be sweet and romantic, or passionate, or hypnotising,
or sharp and energetic. Many more moods can be evoked with Argentine tango,
too.
But those who are not tuned to the nuances of Argentine tango and are used
to the constant switching from tango to swing to waltz to Foxtrot (and on
and on to 14 different dance styles), don't like milongas. They can't bear
to dance one dance the entire evening. This makes it very difficult for me
to coax my ballroom dancing friends to come to a milonga. They say, "I like
variety." Perhaps if milonga DJs were a little more flexible, I might have
more luck in inviting people to a milonga?
I find it strange that Argentine tango is rarely played or danced in
ballrooms -- even in a Balloroom that has a formal class in Argentine tango
will not play a single Argentine tango tune in a 3 hour dance session.
Almost, the only time Argentine tango is danced is at a Showcase, where
students perform for their friends and relatives.
At some milongas in the San Francisco Bay area, it is Argentine tango nearly
all night, with maybe one salsa, two milonga dances and two West Coast swing
tunes. Since I teach all those dances myself, I really enjoy that kind of
variety. But others may feel the non-Arentine tango dances are out of
place.
My wish is that Argentine tango would be played more often in ballrooms --
that it were played at least as often as American tango. One thing I could
do to nudge the ballrooms in that direction would be to request Argentine
tango whenever I attend a ballroom dance. Requests like that are always
accepted when possible.
But, ahem, the otherway? What if I were to request Nightclub two-step at a
milonga? I might have to duck! :)
Phil Seyer
https://www.ilovemusic.com/argentine_tango.htm
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:51:27 -0500
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango versus Argentine tango
Phil:
I used to ask for Argentine Tango at two dance studios in the Washington,
DC Metropolitan area. The reasons I got for not playing Argentine Tango
are 1) Very few people know how to dance it and 2) The DJ doesn't have
any Argentine Tango music and even if (s)he had it, wouldn't play it
because it's not covered by ASCAP royalties and the tango police could
sue for non payment to the Argentine company that collects royalties.
Also, Argentine is so different from American. The reason ballroom
dancers have difficulty with Argentine is that they are used to structure
in steps and rhythm. American style is Slow-Slow-Quick-Quick-Slow over
and over again. They are not used to no set cadence in Argentine. There
is more need for contra body motion in Argentine than in ballroom. Women
who dance American have difficulty to the "A" frame from the "Y" frame in
American. I remember teaching a ballroom dancer Argentine. Her posture
was in the "Y" frame. When I lead her backwards, she just leaned further
backwards and didn't step.
Michael
Washington, DC
Only 28 days to New Year's Eve at New York's Dance Manhattan
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:08:33 -0800 Philip Seyer
<philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM> writes:
> I find it strange that Argentine tango is rarely played or danced in >
ballrooms -- even in a Balloroom that has a formal class in > Argentine
tango > will not play a single Argentine tango tune in a 3 hour dance >
session.
> My wish is that Argentine tango would be played more often in >
ballrooms --
>
> Phil Seyer
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:06:59 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango versus Argentine tango
I taught one of my ballroom women friends how to dance Tango. She picked it up pretty quickly. She has a lot of confidence & is fluent in rhythmic movement. She already knew all the standard ballroom dances as well as the dances we do at the Portland West Coast swing club (WCS, Hustle, ChaCha & NightClub2 Step). I just started doing International/Israeli folkdancing & there's a lot to learn right off the bat. During a 2 hour evening dance they do like 15 or 20 choreographed circle dances & 5 or 6 partner dances. The CW line dancing I know is helping me lots. I'm thinking about starting a thread regarding the sequence of events that got people into Tango dancing.
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:22:08 -0000
From: Daniel Iannarelli <dmi@OSTEOPATH.THERAPIST.ORG.UK>
Subject: Re: Tango versus Argentine tango
Hiya.
Just a point in semantics:
Many people would be upset at the definitions "Tango vs Argentine
Tango".
The principle being that Argentine Tango IS Tango (i.e. the authentic
tango), while the other - ballroom - 'Tango' (an impotent corruption of
the considered risqué authentic tango devised in the ballrooms of London
and Paris in the 1920s) is the pretender.
Therefore, perhaps the actual title of the post should be "Ballroom
Tango vs Tango"...?
Regards
Dani
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 04 December 2003 07:07
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango versus Argentine tango
I taught one of my ballroom women friends how to dance Tango. She picked
it up pretty quickly. She has a lot of confidence & is fluent in
rhythmic movement. She already knew all the standard ballroom dances as
well as the dances we do at the Portland West Coast swing club (WCS,
Hustle, ChaCha & NightClub2 Step). I just started doing
International/Israeli folkdancing & there's a lot to learn right off the
bat. During a 2 hour evening dance they do like 15 or 20 choreographed
circle dances & 5 or 6 partner dances. The CW line dancing I know is
helping me lots. I'm thinking about starting a thread regarding the
sequence of events that got people into Tango dancing.
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:40:30 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango versus Argentine tango
Argentine Tango IS Tango (i.e. the authentic
tango), while the other - ballroom - 'Tango' (an impotent corruption of
the considered risqu $B!& (Bauthentic tango devised in the ballrooms of London
and Paris in the 1920s) is the pretender.
Therefore, perhaps the actual title of the post should be "Ballroom
Tango vs Tango"...?
In my knowledge, there is no such term as "ballroom tango". In Germany,
dancing "tango" could mean one thing or the other. In some places people
advertise it as "Tango Argentino", never as "Argentinischer Tango", in my
experience. In Japan, and most probably in other places, people distinguish
between "Argentine tango" and "Continental tango", at least as far as the
music is concerned. As "continental" Europeans do not think of themselves as
"Continentals", I suppose, the term must originate in the UK. But maybe you
can tell us more about that, Daniel.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:04:11 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: Tango versus Argentine tango
Dear Astrid,
As competitive ballroom dancer and (argentine) tango dancer I'd say that in most European countries "tango" means the one found in "international =
ballroom" (Handled by the dance association called IDSF or WDDSC). I know that there is some style difference in the competitions organized =
by American ballroom associations. Social non-argentine tango is usually a simpler version of the comptetitive ballroom version (either =
International or American). There are some territorial variations that may be considered a genre of their own such as the Finnish tango (which =
looks more like the argentine than the international version, however I only have 6 year old memory of it when it was on TV, I have never =
studied it).
I believe, the big difference in the "authentic" styles and the "ballroom" style is that the "authentic" styles - no matter how =
different from each other, or how much did they take from other forms of dancing, including ballroom and other dogmatized dances - _developed_ as =
an evolutive process, while "ballroom" styles were usually _created_ using elements of the authentic style, but based on other rules (=it =
is artificial, dogmatized etc.). Of course these are the two extremes of a scale, but most styles are either more on one side than the other.
Cheers
Aron
> -----Original Message-----
> From: astrid [mailto:astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP]
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:41 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango versus Argentine tango
>
>
> Argentine Tango IS Tango (i.e. the authentic
> tango), while the other - ballroom - 'Tango' (an impotent
> corruption of the considered risqu $B!& (Bauthentic tango
> devised in the ballrooms of London and Paris in the 1920s)
> is the pretender.
>
> Therefore, perhaps the actual title of the post should be
> "Ballroom Tango vs Tango"...?
>
> In my knowledge, there is no such term as "ballroom tango".
> In Germany, dancing "tango" could mean one thing or the
> other. In some places people advertise it as "Tango
> Argentino", never as "Argentinischer Tango", in my
> experience. In Japan, and most probably in other places,
> people distinguish between "Argentine tango" and
> "Continental tango", at least as far as the music is
> concerned. As "continental" Europeans do not think of
> themselves as "Continentals", I suppose, the term must
> originate in the UK. But maybe you can tell us more about
> that, Daniel.
>
> Astrid
>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 22:24:14 -0800
From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango versus Argentine tango
>American style is Slow-Slow-Quick-Quick-Slow over
> and over again.
Well, beginning American style dancers do SSQQS over and over again, yes.
But it is interesting that *all* ballroom dances have a fundamental rhythm
that beginners lock into. The same is true for many beginning AT dancers
who lock into the 8 count basic. Improvisation does come in ballroom dances,
too, at the more advanced levels.
Advanced American style tango has different rhythms. For example:
QQS QQS (doing a Viennese waltz like turn). Another rhythm SSQQS QQS QQS --
even:
QQQQ SS QQS QQS, with leader walking backwards on the QQQQ! Don't worry, he
is walking counterclockwise, backing line of dance.
Argentine tango improvisation is on another level, though, where the leader
thinks nearly every step -- not only his steps but those of the follower.
Back to my earlier, point. In the ballrooms I attend, Argentine tango is
always played when requested. If more people would request it, it would be
played more.
Dances done in ballrooms do change. Before 1950, I understand it was mainly
Waltz, Foxtrot and swing. Latin dances were not done in ballrooms. Now they
are very common. Hustle was created around 1977 and was initially only done
in special "disco dance halls." Today, hustle, is another "ballroom dance"
in the "rhythm" category.
Will Argentine tango become a ballrom dance? Not any time soon, I don't
think. But I'm going to request it every time I go ballroom dancing.
https://www.ilovemusic.com/argentine_tango.htm
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 07:18:28 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango versus Argentine tango
On a visit to Dallas, Nito was watching someone who had been dancing
Argentine tango for sometime but who also danced a variety of ballroom
dances. Nito commented to me that in his experience that someone who
continued to dance many ballroom dances would have slow progress in
learning (Argentine) tango. He said the the approach to the dance, the
expected posture and the way of moving were enough different to slow the
learning of Argentine tango.
--Steve
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:25:49 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: Tango versus Argentine tango
Dear Steve,
> On a visit to Dallas, Nito was watching someone who had been
> dancing Argentine tango for sometime but who also danced a
> variety of ballroom dances. Nito commented to me that in
> his experience that someone who continued to dance many
> ballroom dances would have slow progress in learning
> (Argentine) tango. He said the the approach to the dance,
> the expected posture and the way of moving were enough
> different to slow the learning of Argentine tango.
I believe this comment is just a sort of comment most ballroom dancers get from authentic dancers. I was dancing 7 years active competitive =
international ballroom when started tango. I don't say that I was at home in tango immediately, but I needed a LOT less time than anyone =
"from the street" to progress at higher levels. "Telling your left foot from the right" is a great advantage when learning any new form of =
dancing, no matter how different are they.
The only truth in what Nito said is, that at the very beginning ballroom dancers have different problems than complete beginners: they have to =
overrule burnt-in routines, instead of learning to control their bodies, which means that yes their ballroom routine is in the way, but it =
doesn't mean that they going to advance slower with others on the same course.
Lack of proper motivation, however, may be a problem: advanced ballroom dancers already learnt a lot about dancing, so they may feel that on a =
beginner course they ought to perform better than "civillians" even if they don't invest so much energy into it. Of course this is not =
necessarily true...
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:08:22 EST
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tango versus Argentine tango
I know of a long time ballroom dancer who has taken up AT. Although he has
now danced tango for several years he still has that ballroom frame and posture
- straight up and sometimes leaning back and he dances very stiffly. I think
Nito may be right.
Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 12/8/03 12:24:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
aron.ecsedy@OM.HU writes:
> Subj: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango versus Argentine tango
> Date: 12/8/03 12:24:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
> From: <A HREF="mailto:aron.ecsedy@OM.HU">aron.ecsedy@OM.HU</A>
> To: <A HREF="mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU">TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU</A>
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
> Dear Steve,
>
> >On a visit to Dallas, Nito was watching someone who had been
> >dancing Argentine tango for sometime but who also danced a
> >variety of ballroom dances. Nito commented to me that in
> >his experience that someone who continued to dance many
> >ballroom dances would have slow progress in learning
> >(Argentine) tango. He said the the approach to the dance,
> >the expected posture and the way of moving were enough
> >different to slow the learning of Argentine tango.
>
> I believe this comment is just a sort of comment most ballroom dancers get
> from authentic dancers. I was dancing 7 years active competitive international
> ballroom when started tango. I don't say that I was at home in tango
> immediately, but I needed a LOT less time than anyone "from the street" to progress
> at higher levels. "Telling your left foot from the right" is a great
> advantage when learning any new form of dancing, no matter how different are they.
>
> The only truth in what Nito said is, that at the very beginning ballroom
> dancers have different problems than complete beginners: they have to overrule
> burnt-in routines, instead of learning to control their bodies, which means
> that yes their ballroom routine is in the way, but it doesn't mean that they
> going to advance slower with others on the same course.
>
> Lack of proper motivation, however, may be a problem: advanced ballroom
> dancers already learnt a lot about dancing, so they may feel that on a beginner
> course they ought to perform better than "civillians" even if they don't
> invest so much energy into it. Of course this is not necessarily true...
>
> Cheers,
> Aron
>
>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 22:59:28 -0600
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango versus Argentine tango
Stephen Brown wrote
<<<<<<<On a visit to Dallas, Nito was watching someone who had been
dancing Argentine tango for sometime but who also danced a variety of
ballroom dances. Nito commented to me that in his experience that
someone who continued to dance many ballroom dances would have slow
progress in learning (Argentine) tango. He said the approach to the
dance, the expected posture and the way of moving were enough different
to slow the learning of Argentine tango.>>>>>>>>>>
I agree wholeheartedly. Not to disparage anyone who has a good time
learning and dancing ballroom, but in my experience, those who have
tried to “cross over” from ballroom to Argentine are the ones that have
the most trouble. Not only do they have to “unlearn the habits” that run
so counter to the basic precepts of Argentine Tango, AND learn how to
walk again, they also have to learn that dancing Argentine Tango is not
about steps and maneuvers, but passion and feeling. Argentine Tango at
it’s finest is when two people can connect at a gut level, with no
concerns other than the music, and the feelings that are generated by
the soulful interaction of two bodies in tune with each other. When a
leader finally understands that every move of every inch of his body is
there to communicate, and when his follower finally comprehends, and
responds, to those communiqués! It’s not just the approach to the dance,
the posture, or the way of moving; it’s the spiritual synchronicity that
can only be experienced in Argentine Tango, where the connection is not
just physical, but metaphysical.
Warm regards to all,
Michael
Houston, TX
