1369 Teaching at the milongas
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 20:05:39 +0000
From: ahshol Kahn <kahn44@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Teaching at the milongas
Jay rabe says:
"just a vague feeling that something didn't go as intended, and she
asks,
"What did you want me to do?" and I respond, "when I move my shoulders like
this, I want you to move your hips like this..." is that "teaching?" or
could you more accurately call it "casual coaching?" I submit that such
behavior happens at every milonga I've ever been to that has inexperienced
dancers."
We are on opposite sides of the continent. North of the Equator things are
different, here if I did that the lady would wait for the tango to end and
then ask me to take her back to her seat because she feels "like resting at
the moment". It would be considered very poor manners on my part to talk
while dancing and even worse to give "pointers".Who do you think you are?
You should respect your partner, accept her/him as he/she is. They are not
going to change right now for you!
I repeat, you only use moves that you are certain she can follow with ease.
Some people ask me what do you do if she has a poor axis.
It does not matter what axis she decides to have I keep mine where it should
be, period.
I do not bend in any direction, this will help her to acquire a good axis.
It is difficult to play the game when you ignore the rules.
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 20:09:30 -0400
From: Sergio <Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: teaching at the milongas
Tom writes:
"The problem with teaching at a milonga is that it is more about the
man's power trip than about helping the women."
This is exactly what should be avoided.
Somebody tells me -it is necessary to attract new dancers. This is done by "teaching them something" so that they continue to come-.
I agree with this fact of life as well. The only difference is the pedagogical approach.
In one case you have a mediocre tango dancer humiliating a newcomer by making her/him feel inferior, ackward.
The way I propose is to dance with that beginner dancer if necessary. Dancing is one of the best ways to learn both for leaders and followers.
Dancing with beginners awakens leading abilities that were dormant. Many women learnt by going to milongas without ever taking lessons.
The way to proceed (IMO) is to invite the lady to dance, get the feeling of what she can do first. Do not lead anything that you are not certain =
she can follow. Start walking straight, if she feels relaxed add a front ocho, if it works, combine walking with front ochos. Walk to both sides =
of her, making sure her walk is not disturbed, try some rocking steps to turn (cunita), try a calesita to turn. Mix all this simple elements.
I she fails to do something right, compensate and make sure she does not notice that anything unexpected appeared. Change weight from one foot to =
the other frequently (balanceo), etc.
Try a back ocho, if it fails do not attempt again.
End commenting how well she has danced. This is the way to teach. Not talking. Not taking her to the side as if she was an imbecile.
The place to teach is the lesson. The place to practice and talk is the practica. The place to dance in silence is the milonga.
May all of us have gratifying learning experiences.
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 00:54:51 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: teaching at the milongas
Tom writes:
"The problem with teaching at a milonga is that it
is more about the
man's power trip than about helping the women."
There is a very simple solution to dealing with a "follower" who will not
follow you. *Do not dance what you cannot lead.* I once asked Jorge Torres,
when he was teaching the men leading skills, (how to lead without disturbing
the axis of the woman, how to lead gently, and so on):"When a lead does not
work,it is often very hard to tell whose fault it is. And I have seen lots
of fights happen on the dance floor, because the man is blaming the woman
for not following right, and the woman is blaming the man for not leading
right. How can you tell whose fault it is?" His answer was very simple. He
said:"It is always the man's fault."
If you do not believe me, go and watch a woman dancing with several men. You
will soon notice, that with one, she seems to hesitate before almost every
step. With another one, she keeps loosing her balance and looks like the wet
towel being thrown around, that I mentioned earlier. With another one, she
seems awkward, slightly stiff and uncomfortable. And then, with yet another
one, she flowers: her movements flow smoothly, her steps look elegant, she
looks relaxed, happy and at ease, and her dance is in complete, easy harmony
with his.
So, before you start blaming a woman for the way she moves, and assume that
you are the one to teach her how to perform a woman's moves correctly, think
twice.
Astrid
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 21:25:07 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: teaching at the milongas
>
> What I found was that she was obsessed with what was
> behind her. She kept looking over her shoulder and
> thrashing around.
> What should I have done?
Marisa
What the Argentine men I know would do with such a woman, is, they would
probably gently put their right hand around the back of her head, and place
her face on their right cheek, while they continue dancing forward slowly
and confidently.
Since you are a woman, you are neither macho enough nor very likely to feel
comfortable engaging in such an intimately tender behaviour with another
woman. So, just an idea. If I were you, I'd probably quickly find someone
else to dance with.
Astrid
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 12:21:29 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: teaching at the milongas
Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> I'm learning to lead ... I recently asked a lady
>whom I know from class to dance at a milonga....
>
>What I found was that she was obsessed with what was
>behind her. She kept looking over her shoulder and
>thrashing around.
>
>Would it have been OK to ask her not to turn around?
>If so, how would I have phrased it? If not, is there
>anything I could have done?
>
If you are able to, lead figures that would occasionally allow her to see down the line of dance, so that she will realize that she is in no danger of bumping into anything or anyone.
From the sound of it, she is a relatively new dancer, and has not yet build up enough confident to trust the leader. Or maybe she had a bad experience before with another leader. Either way, all leaders will have to earn her trust, a little bit at a time.
As for discussing the problem (in between songs, or after the tanda), you may want to relate your own experience of being bumped, and reassure her that you will protect her to the best of your ability.
Cheers
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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:32:57 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: teaching at the milongas
> Would it have been OK to ask her not to turn
> around? If so, how would I have phrased it? If not,
> is there anything I could have done?
As usual, some very good advice from various members
of the list, some given publically, some privately.
Suggestions included inviting her to relax or
discussing whether she was uncomfortable (on or off
the floor) leading figures that let her see what was
going on all around so she had a better sense of the
floor, and leading some little "get her attention"
figures to try to get her to focus.
I had some better luck this last week dancing with
her, and in particular I did as Frank and Chino
suggested, doing turns and half turns so she could see
for herself what was happening behind her. She may,
of course, have simply improved in the course of the
week - she is quite new. (I personally do the trick
of leading the unexpected figure in class if I find my
follower has zoned out and is repeating what we're
working on without waiting for my lead - good, bad, or
indifferent - but I wouldn't do it during a social
dance.)
I found the comments that focused on the same sex
issue interesting and amusing - although of course
none of the others were as funny as Gary F.'s, which
ignored the info given about my sex and suggested that
if I am not an unattractive single man, I might tell
her I can't see her pretty eyes if she keeps looking
away from me. I think the suggestion several people
gave, to consider whether it was dancing with another
woman that made her antsy is reasonable - although she
does in fact turn and thrash with male leaders as well
(my observation and also that of my male partner).
Astrid's suggestion, that a male Argentine would
probably just place the lady's face against his, was
interesting - although I don't know why Astrid says I
am not macho enough to do that. She has never even
met me! ;-) ;-) ;-) In any case, the other thing I
did was in fact to dance closer. It certainly did not
make it any worse.
Thanks again!
Marisa
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 02:02:25 -0700
From: Gary Fay <gtf_ctim@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: teaching at the milongas and Tango music?
Marisa,
Happy to amuse, its all about having fun! But
seriously when doing two step with a new partner I
almost always dance line of dance going backwards so
the new woman can get used to dancing with a partner,
it really works well. When I tried it in Tango I was
gently reminded, Tango is different. I was gently
scolded "oh oh oh, why am I going forewards, that is
so wierd."
As for the music and other Tango, there have been
plenty of Rock and Roll type songs that I would love
to do Tango too. I also also do East and West Coast
Swing, Waltz and a few others. Tango is a great dance
but the best evenings include a variety of music, it
keeps things interesting.
Gary F
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> There are 18 messages totalling 897 lines in this
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> Topics of the day:
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> 1. teaching at the milongas
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:32:57 -0700
> From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: Re: teaching at the milongas
> I found the comments that focused on the same sex
> issue interesting and amusing - although of course
> none of the others were as funny as Gary F.'s, which
> ignored the info given about my sex and suggested
> that if I am not an unattractive single man, I might tell
