718  Teaching at Milongas ???

Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 16:10:57 -0400
From: Randy Pittman <tango22@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Teaching at Milongas ???

Andrew made a statement and raised a question.

>A milonga is a social event not a performance venue neither, for those leaders who feel compelled to give lessons to everybody with whom they =

dance, is it an appropriate place to teach?<

IMHO NO!

I've personally spoke with many men who can't resist, when they find new Tangueras, they have teach them on the dance floor at a Milonga. Most =
of these men are not able to correctly lead their material themselves.

With experienced dancers new to the area, men feel the need to teach the steps that they know. If you can't lead, it don't teach it. If you =
partner can't follow, either she is not experienced for the level of material, or you don't know how to lead the material. Irregardless =
teaching is not appropriate at a Milonga. IF YOU CAN'T LEAD IT, DON'T TRY TO TEACH IT.

The only time a limited amount of coaching is acceptable, is if a new female forgets to close her feet of to cross, a reminder is acceptable =
and reassuring her to relax and try to enjoy her learning experience. Of course IMHO.

Tango Forever

Randy

Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:18:14 -0600
From: Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck <paulnkaren@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Teaching at Milongas ???

This response is from Karen:

Randy Pittman wrote:

> The only time a limited amount of coaching is acceptable, is if a new
> female forgets to close her feet of to cross, a reminder is acceptable
> and reassuring her to relax and try to enjoy her learning experience.
> Of course IMHO.

Sorry guys, the "rules" apply here as well. If the woman didn't cross as
expected, it usually means that it wasn't clearly marked (inexperienced or
indecisive man), or that although the mark was clearly given, it wasn't
received (inexperienced, or perhaps distracted/inattentive woman). In either
case you improvise - come up with another plan. Wouldn't that be intrinsic
to the notion of tango as an improvised social dance? Also, just plain
gracious.

Many of us prefer viewing the milonga as primarily a social experience, not
a "learning experience." That may fly in the face of the work ethic, or
whatever it is that seems to compell many of us to to persistently value the
educational over the pleasurable, or to validate our activities by "lessons
learned."

There's nothing (much) sillier than a man calling out (or whispering)
"cross!" or "gancho!" or "boleo!" at a milonga. Or even in practice.
Ideally, you work it out together during the practice session: "I'm trying
to create a cross/gancho/boleo here, but we're not communicating. Let's try
it again with..."

If your partner doesn't know "the code" (Women: sequence of steps in the
giro, etc. Men: marking the cross, etc.), you won't have time or space to
teach it to her/him on the social dance floor. Whether or not it's your role
to instruct her/him during practice is debatable. Are you her/his teacher or
dance partner?

If you expect the cross as a default step (man takes two steps outside;
woman crosses) you might choose to explain that to your partners, during
practice of course. "I was taught/prefer that the cross is a default
step..." Experienced women may even file this info for future use, and
perhaps accommodate it in a social setting. "Oh yeah, Joe is a
cross-by-defaulter. Step, step, cross step..." ;-)

Teaching on the milonga floor is one of those ever-recurring subjects.
Oddly, no matter how often general consensus not to do so is reiterated, at
the very next milonga someone is blocking traffic to instruct, lecture,
discuss or argue with their dance partner. It seems that almost everyone
agrees that it should not be done, but somehow considers themselves
personally exempt under extenuating circumstances...

Karen
Albuquerque, NM

Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:04:17 -0400
From: Steve Freeman <steven.f.freeman@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Teaching at Milongas

Why such opposition to "teaching" (which evidently includes discussion)
at the milonga -- or even during practice?

Many of us have limited time for practice and limited opportunity to
practice privately with people other than our regular partner. Steps,
holds, or leads that seem to work with one's regular partner, may not
always work correctly with others. In such cases, it's nice to receive
feedback if something doesn't seem quite right -- especially if our
partner has some thoughts on WHY not.

Obviously, it is inconsiderate to obstruct the general dance flow. But
often there are nooks and crannies for trying out steps and for
disucssion. In most cases, the only opportunity we ever have to dance
with a given person is in a milonga. What's wrong with a whisper? Well
place whispers could just as easily prevent traffic jams as cause them.


Finally, why such a distinction between the "educational" and the
"pleasurable"? Many of us are drawn to tango in part because of it's
intricacies and complexity, and find pleasure in that it is in some way
"educational." This list is testimony to the degree we find discussion
of tango pleasurable in and of itself.

Andrew criticized lessons on the dance floor.

Randy Pittman wrote:

> The only time a limited amount of coaching is acceptable, is if a new
> female forgets to close her feet of to cross, a reminder is acceptable

> and reassuring her to relax and try to enjoy her learning experience.

Karen went further:

> Sorry guys, the "rules" apply here as well....
> Many of us prefer viewing the milonga as primarily a social

experience, not a "learning experience." ...

> [too] many of us persistently value the educational over the

pleasurable ...

> ... There's nothing (much) sillier than a man calling out (or

whispering) "cross!" or "gancho!" or "boleo!" at a milonga. Or even in
practice.

> .... If your partner doesn't know "the code" ... you won't have time

or space to teach it to her/him on the social dance floor. Whether or
not it's your role to instruct her/him during practice is debatable ...

Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:22:18 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching at Milongas

--- Steve Freeman <steven.f.freeman@VERIZON.NET>
wrote:

> Why such opposition to "teaching" (which evidently
> includes discussion)
> at the milonga -- or even during practice?

The problem revolves around whether or not the
instruction was solicited. It pertains to self-styled
teachers who spoon out dollops of corrections on
social dance floors to partners they've duped into
dancing with them only to hold them prisoner to
unwanted lessons. This is so common as to be
recognized by anybody, and I don't think anyone is
referring to regular partners who consistently work
together.

Incidentally, if you say, "Do you mind of I say
something?" and your partner responds with, "okay",
your advice was NOT solicited, and you haven't
satisfied decorum by getting permission to say
something first.

It isn't fair to a partner to extend an invitation and
then hold that partner captive to your criticisms.
It's an ugly mixed message. That person was presuming
that you made the invitation because you liked dancing
with him or her. Now they are being given a totally
different message that they didn't agree to being
subjected to.

As far as an invitee making unsolicited criticisms, I
don't see it as being a similar fairness issue,
although it's equally poor form.

However, not everyone has the same feelings I do about
what social dancing means.

As far as I'm concerned, it isn't a test. I really
don't care if mistakes happen. I think figuring
things out as you go is the way it's supposed to work.
I like that aspect of it. I think that's the fun of
improvisation, discovering your language with a dancer
as you go along.

You're not supposed to worry about the inadvertant on
a social dance floor. If you work everything out in
advance so that it can be executed perfectly, that's
not social dancing, that's choreography. Totally
valid, but something else.

Jazz musicians often say about improvisation: there
are no wrong notes, just poor resolutions.

Nobody has to agree with me, and I know that many
don't. There are enough who do, though, for me to
enjoy many nice social dances, and I'm grateful for
them.

Jai


=====
Usenet on Google, the Internet's home for easy and totally free discussion:
https://groups.google.com
Usenet Fast Start for Tango Posters
https://www.geocities.com/jaijeffryes/usenet.htm

Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:35:03 -0800
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Teaching at Milongas

I really like what Jai wrote about this. I feel exactly the same - a room
full of people with his kind of attitude would make for a really enjoyable
party.

I have very limited tolerance for teaching at milongas. I just want to show
up, shut my mouth, and dance. I can usually tell what my partners can and
cannot do, or what is or is not comfortable for them. Furthermore, it is a
very rare event that I dance with someone without first having watched them
danced, thus I know how she moves and have an idea of whether dancing with
her will be pleasurable (for both of us) or not. If I don't think it's
going to work that night, I don't dance with her, I might try to go find her
in a practica some other time to see how it goes.

If I do something uncomfortable, that person usually doesn't dance with me
any more afterwards. The reverse is also true. It's that simple. What it
really wonderful is a few of the women who I have done uncomfortable things
to have pointed them out to me in practicas, where there is time and
everyone is in the mindset of learning. Again, the reverse is true - in
practicas I tend to be drawn to people I have had difficulties with in the
past, and almost always, we can improve the situation at the practica and
then enjoy dancing together at a milonga later. That's what the practica
setting is all about - they can have a big impact, and I think several of us
experienced this in Denver on Labor Day. I left the practicas there feeling
that I had learned a lot and had helped some others out in the process, and
it felt really good and positive. I got one of the best tips ever from a
friend during the practicas, and that one little thing will probably change
my entire dance when it sinks in.

In the milonga, if you're on the floor and doing anything but dancing,
you're disturbing the flow of the other dancers in the room, period. If
you're in a corner (or anywhere else) discussing something, there's a
portion of the floor that is "dead" and not flowing and it has a negative
effect on the whole room. Also, I find that the corners are the easiest
places to enter the dance floor with minimum disturbance of the ronda, so if
you're in the corner discussing something that opportunity is taken away.

There is a huge opportunity to learn at the milongas - by sitting and
watching others dance. For the leaders, we can learn a lot simply by
dancing near other leaders. Finally we can learn a lot by getting so deep
into the music with our partners that nothing else even registers on our
conscious. This is the real magic for me, where all kinds of things come
into my dance that I don't even realize consciously. None of this disturbs
the flow of la ronda.

When we're on the floor, we need to flow with the rest of the room and get
carried away by the particular energy of the night. On rare occasion, I've
seen a couple stop and try to figure out a step, or even have a slight
disagreement about something - it is so glaringly in contrast with the rest
of the room it blows my mind. We need to learn how to turn our brains off
and just dance. We need to get back to something simple and fun so we can
just relax and enjoy ourselves. There's no need to teach, or really say
much when we're dancing, if we can't lead and follow something with our
tactile senses, we should do something else that we can do silently. There
are plenty of times where I do something that is not clear or my partner
misinterprets a signal and we have a little misstep, but 99% of the time we
can both laugh and we never stop dancing. It's not that big of a deal if we
mess up a bit here and there. All this said, I must say that when the whole
room is flowing, the music is good, and everyone is dancing and not clogging
up the floor, little mistakes are really rare - everyone can fall into a
comfortable groove and we just dance. That's where the beauty is for me.

Dan Boccia
Anchorage, AK

Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 19:01:21 -0500
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Teaching at Milongas

Dear List members

Jai wrote: "Jazz musicians often say about improvisation: there
are no wrong notes, just poor resolutions."
Dan wrote: "There's no need to teach, or really say much when we're dancing,
if we can't lead and follow something with our tactile senses, we should do
something else that we can do silently."

Well spoken!

And I don't recall people at any sport game teaching each other during a
proper game. Have you seen them erasing the score and redoing the
drive/kick/throw? Do dancers at performance redo their movement just to
correct their poorly executed one earlier?

We all acknowledge that practice makes perfect. I see a lot of dancers rush
to getting the gratification from social-dansing in milonga without spending
enough time to brush up their newly acquired skills. And even in practica,
some dancers may treat it as another social event; they would not really
stop and re-practice the troubled spots.

Milonga's open dance floor is the place where one can dance to enjoy the
fruits of his/her hard labour. It is a moment of truth to test of the
skills of both the leader and follower. Smart followers will not dance with
the leader who relies on (verbal) teaching on the Milonga floor to get his
message across, because my book considers it as cheating.

Bibi (Chicago)

Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 20:52:12 -0700
From: Luda Requadt <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Teaching at Milongas

Bibi wrote:

"Smart followers will not dance with the leader who
relies on (verbal) teaching on the Milonga floor to
get his message across, because my book considers it
as cheating."

I personally don't mind being "taught" if it is done
with style and grace. One of my most memorable tango
experiences was dancing with a tanguero who led me in
some incredibly intricate steps, about which I didn't
have a clue at the time, and actually making me look
good. Nothing was said. His lead took care of it all.

Luda

Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:24:22 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teaching at Milongas

Jai Jeffryes writes:

> > Steve Freeman <steven.f.freeman@VERIZON.NET> wrote:
> > Why such opposition to "teaching" (which evidently
> > includes discussion) at the milonga -- or even during
> > practice?
>
> The problem revolves around whether or not the
> instruction was solicited.

and Luda Requadt writes:

> I personally don't mind being "taught" if it is done
> with style and grace.

Sorry, but I must disagree with both Jai and Luda
on this one. It doesn't matter whether or not the
instruction is solicited (Jai), and it is irrelevant
that Luda doesn't mind instruction with style and
grace. Instruction is still a no-no.

Why? Because it's not about whether the
instructee minds the instruction -- it's about what
the rest of the dancers on the floor mind, and I'll
lay odds not a one of them wants to have the mood and
flow of the milonga interrupted by some couple
discussing tango moves.

Please, no instruction on the milonga floor,
period! Por favor!

Huck