443 there is no tango without a man
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:54:02 +0100
From: Mika Frankaite <mika.frankaite@ERGO.LT>
Subject: there is no tango without a man
Hello list,
It takes two to tango.
A man and a woman.
But there are always much more women at
tango lessons / practicas / milongas, than men.
Please, share your experience about attracting more
male dancers to your tango community.
Laima
Tango Balsas
www.imones.lt/tango
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:38:57 -0000
From: Mike Lavocah <mikelavocah@FREENETNAME.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: there is no tango without a man
I think that the problem is not attracting men but keeping them - in my
experience, the numbers of men and women are roughly equal at the very first
class, but the men fall off more quickly. I think they are discouraged by
the teachers who keep telling them how difficult it is for the man.
If you don't do this the men seem to stay. Most weeks I have more men than
woman in my beginners class(!) (although in the intermediates, who didn't
start with me, I have more women). As an added bonus, the guys volunteer to
dance with each other which is of real benefit to them.
Mike
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:25:20 +0100
From: Laima Kugeviciene <laima.kugeviciene@TELENORMEDIA.LT>
Subject: there is no tango without a man
Hello list,
It takes two to tango.
A man and a woman.
But there are always much more women at
tango lessons / practicas / milongas, than men.
Please, share your experience about attracting more
male dancers to your tango community.
Laima
Tango Balsas
www.imones.lt/tango
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:19:34 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: there is no tango without a man
Mike writes:
> I think that the problem is not attracting men but keeping them - in my
> experience, the numbers of men and women are roughly equal at the very
first
> class, but the men fall off more quickly.
It all depends on the school, place and people and conditions,and I think
noone can speak for anyone else.
In my experience both things may be difficult, but attracting men is
certainly more difficult. I have seen classes where there were no men at all
and they never came, and all the women had to either take turns dancing with
the teacher or spend their time practising ochos against the wall and giros
around a bar stool, and molinetes with each other. Still, this did not
discourage the women, as long as they liked the teacher and the dance.
On the other hand, many men seem to be easily discouraged, have sensitive
egos, little ambition, and many of them quit classes as soon as they know
enough steps to not look like a complete idiot at a milonga. For many of
them, being able to ask a woman to dance, one or a few of those 10 or 20
women longingly looking at the dance floor, and ready to dance with anyone
to get out there, is enough, and all they had in mind in the first place, it
seems.
Meanwhile, the women keep practising in the studios, take private classes
etc., a) to get better than the other women, b)because that way they can
dance with the teacher who dances better than any of the guys at the
milonga, c) because they are interested in learning the dance, and not just
in hanging out at the milongas, which are overrun with women anyway.
I think they are discouraged by
> the teachers who keep telling them how difficult it is for the man.
I think, they may get discouraged because the dance really is difficult.
Like a German website says:"There are thousands of much less complicated
ways to pick up a woman."
Having said that, if the class is fairly cheap, or if the studio controls
the gender balance, or if some dancer like e.g. Jorge Torres, who is here
now, manages to attract their interest, they suddenly are to be found, and
often in almost sufficient numbers.
Most weeks I have more men than
> woman in my beginners class(!)
This never happens in Tokyo. Nor in BsAs, I hear, where the situation seems
to be just as bad or worse than anywhere else, as far as the lack of men is
concerned.
As an added bonus, the guys volunteer to
> dance with each other which is of real benefit to them.
This never happens here, unless they are forced or commanded to do that, but
some women have started to learn the male steps, or have been encouraged to
do so by their teacher, in order to remedy the situation somewhat. However,
once the women start dancing with each other, the men may not ask them
anymore, so this is kind of tricky too.
If anyone knows of any ways to attract more men to tango, please let me
know. Before we announce a class on the tangotokyo website, me and the
female moderator often worry together that this may just attract even more
women, and it might be better to keep it secret, so that we get to dance
more ourselves.
Astrid
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:06:00 -0000
From: Preston <qwer@REWQ.FSNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: there is no tango without a man
I think that the problem isn't so much lack of men in general, but lack of older men and younger women. In my limited experience lot of young =
guys start learning tango, but they soon quit because almost all women there are so much older than they are.
Personally I started learning tango a while ago, and find it really interesting, but I'm now seriously considering letting it wait for 10 or =
20 years, and concentrating on salsa instead, because salsa attracts much younger women. (Must be all that spinning...) Please do not =
misunderstand me: It's dancing, and dancing with older women can be good fun. However, like so many people these days, I'm single and have only a =
limited amount of free time, and I'm determined to spend as much of that free time as I possibly can with women of my own age. When I think of =
women I have met while learning tango, lot of them have kids, some have even been married, basically they have done lots of things, and when I =
hear about these things I feel like I might just as well be dancing with my mother.
So, why aren't older men interested in tango? First, unlike younger guys many of them feel that any kind of dancing is a threat to their =
masculinity. Second, as they get older, many men decide that it is so much easier for them to satisfy that need for female company we all have =
with escorts and prostitutes. The trouble is, once they have crossed that line it is very unlikely that they would spend any time doing =
something like dancing tango. What about young women? They go to mainstream dance clubs and places like salsa clubs because that's the =
fashionable thing to do and because that's where their girlfriends go.
What can be done to change this? Perhaps it would be possible to attract more old men by emphasizing the 'macho' side of tango, making it a manly =
thing to do. I guess that might also cause some problems and complications. To attract young women I think that tango should have a =
much more fashionable image, and it might also be useful to emphasize the social side of it rather than all the hard studying and practicing.
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:15:40 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: there is no tango without a man
Preston writes:
" Perhaps it would be possible to attract more old men by emphasizing the
'macho' side of tango, making it a manly thing to do. I guess that might
also cause some problems and complications. To attract young women I think
that tango should have a much more fashionable image, and it might also be
useful to emphasize the social side of it rather than all the hard studying
and practicing."
This is the only part of Preston's posting where he is offering advice,
although this piece of advice is completely useless for our milongas over
here, because the situation here is the complete opposite. I have never
anywhere else seen gatherings that consist of a bunch of aging men combined
with an overflow of young pretty women, who are there vonluntarily.
So, should I say, why don't you buy yourself an air ticket for a 12 hour
flight and come over to dance at the other side of the Pacific ocean ?
How do you guys feel being offered that kind of solution to a problem,
instead of any suggestions in regard to the original question ?
I received a whole number of replies from people telling me in private that
in their places it is exactly the same thing, too many women.
One curiosity:
I saw one mail from Argentina, by an Argentine saying, yes, in his class it
is almost all women. And received another from someone who went as a tourist
to Argentina, saying that there were lots of men at the milonga he went to,
and why don't I buy myself an air ticket for a 32 hours flight if I wanna
dance more etc.etc.
Slightly exasperated, and still at square 1
Astrid
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:18:32 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRYHART.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: there is no tango without a man
People dance for all kinds of reasons, so I should not generalise. However
my experience is that men get disillusioned and frustrated with the pressure
learning and having to retain figures. Where teaching concentrates on
figures, the men fall away and classes end up with a surplus of women. I
have found that men prefer tuition that concentrates on simple technique and
structure. It takes the stress out and replaces it with enjoyment and a
sense of achievement. As a result our weekly practica often has more men
than women. After all, most men would prefer to dance with a woman than
dance by themselves with a woman present.
El Abrazo
If anyone knows of any ways to attract more men to tango, please let me
know. Before we announce a class on the tangotokyo website, me and the
female moderator often worry together that this may just attract even more
women, and it might be better to keep it secret, so that we get to dance
more ourselves.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:15:35 -0600
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: there is no tango without a man
Astrid and List members,
Before I ramble, I wish to clarify that I do not have a solution on how to
increase the male dance population.
I have been following this thread. The difference in demographics is
interesting. Among the posted entries thus far, I echoed most with
Astrid's. It got me thinking more...
------------
I agree that AT may be more difficult than other social dances. But I think
some teachers could be making it more difficult than it is necessary. I
agree with that there is certain amount of superiority being embodied by AT,
sort of "can you top this".
I share with Astrid's observation that the female tends to be over-populated
for many locations I have visited.
Astrid has some INTERESTING comments:
1. "little ambition, <snip being able to ask a woman to dance, one or a few
of those 10 or 20 women <snip is enough."
I think this is a self-perpetuating problem, for the fact that as long as
there are plenty followers dying to dance, the leads do not have to lift a
finger to compete. That is a pure human nature.
2. "the women keep practicing"
Could it be the result of how the ladies associated dancing when they were
young? In their childhood years, they danced because of the music or
movement, not because of finding a boy. The Male, according to your
description, and from another post, appears to consider tango as a mean to
their end of dating.
May be Astrid is right about ladies in Tokyo trying to improve in order to
dance with the teachers. However, I noticed that at many other locations,
teachers tend not to dance socially (perhaps because they are tired). And
if they do, with the students taking private classes.
If the 2 earlier conjectures are correct, this gender difference in the
perception of tango could potential paint a dim picture of pleasure for the
ladies.
At this point, it looks like the ladies can choose to have status quo, or
they can proactively learn the leads part. Then you raised an EXTMREMELY
comment:
- "However, once the women start dancing with each other, the men may not
ask them anymore"
I am much disturbed hearing that, can any one explain why?
"Before we announce a class on the tangotokyo website,
<SNIP> it might be better to keep it secret, so that we get to dance more
ourselves.
That is too bad...
BB (who is saving up money to fly to the Milonga with high male ratio)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:58:43 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: there is no tango without a man
I am going way over the top of my suggested "no more than two postings a
week or so" ratio, but then, having a woman's problem is a rare gem on
Tango-L, so this is interesting. May I should hybernate for a while after
that to make it up.
Bibi writes:
I wish to clarify that I do not have a solution on how to
> increase the male dance population.
I don't either, otherwise I would not be worrying about this.
We have been wrecking our heads for a way to get more men into tango, and
what we came up with is:
1.Telling the women to bring a man along does not work. If they had one,
they would not be here. Or if their friend or husband were ready to do this,
he would already be there. Besides, some, if they have a boyfriend, they do
not want to share him with everybody. On the other hand, for a woman to
bring a girlfriend along is quite common .and makes it all worse, so we were
thinking about making a rule that forbids this. ; )
2. Announcing classes on the internet does not work , it mainly attracts
more women.
3. Trying to talk a man into learning tango does not work, unless he has
done other dances before, and does not have a wife or a work or train
schedule that prevent him from coming.
But I think
> some teachers could be making it more difficult than it is necessary. I
> agree with that there is certain amount of superiority being embodied by
AT,
> sort of "can you top this".
Frankly, with many teachers teaching step combinations, I often stand there
in the class, thinking:"Thank God, I am not a man. I would never be able to
remember all that." As a woman, as long as you have good technique, you can
leave almost all the memorising up to the man, and that's why so many women
"can do it", and the men cannot. Men not only have to learn their own steps,
but the leads as well. All that the women have to learn, first of all, is
"to do nothing", which is hard for a European woman (I am told, the Japanese
women have no problem with that at all. On the other hand, a German friend
told me, that he feels like he is dancing with a rag doll sometimes, because
some really do nothing at all on their own.. And one Japanese woman told me
, she finds tango "stifling", because it is just more of the same, having to
follow her husband all the time.)
>
> 1. "little ambition, <snip being able to ask a woman to dance, one or a
few
> of those 10 or 20 women <snip is enough."
> I think this is a self-perpetuating problem, for the fact that as long as
> there are plenty followers dying to dance, the leads do not have to lift a
> finger to compete. That is a pure human nature.
Yes. The pure human tends to be a lazy creature, methinks. And this
development is ironic, if you read about the early days of tango, where a
man could not show his face at a milonga unless he was a really good dancer,
and the men would practise with each other in order to be able to impress
the women, and to get them to dance with them.
>
> 2. "the women keep practicing"
> Could it be the result of how the ladies associated dancing when they were
> young? In their childhood years, they danced because of the music or
> movement, not because of finding a boy.
Yes. And the other reason is, that the same dynamics may be at work like in
the good old days , only the other way round.
A woman has three choices:
Either bring her own partner along to the milonga.
Or look like you are no older than 32, no taller than average, slightly
underweight, have long blonde hair, or some other outstanding feature, look
pretty, harmless, cute, and available, smile at every one, and never dare
criticise any man's dancing. A wonder bra or a silicone job may help, too.
If you have all these features you do not even need to know much about
dancing.
Or go to classes, until your dancing is so outstanding that the men will
think of dancing with you as getting a lucky break.
Any other hints at further strategies are appreciated. ; )
The Male, according to your
> description, and from another post, appears to consider tango as a mean to
> their end of dating.
Or to "virtual dating", like the ego boost of having 10 young, pretty women
ready to throw their arm around your neck, even if you are short, no longer
young, chubby and plain, and cannot hold a converstation. As long as you can
do a salida and lead a few ochos without getting impossibly tense, throwing
her body around, or poking your fingers into her back..
>
> May be Astrid is right about ladies in Tokyo trying to improve in order to
> dance with the teachers. However, I noticed that at many other locations,
> teachers tend not to dance socially (perhaps because they are tired). And
> if they do, with the students taking private classes.
I never said any of this, you got it all wrong, Bibi.
The ladies try to improve, in order to get more dances with the men at the
milongas. They also enjoy dancing with the teachers, because the teachers
dance better than the men that go to the milongas. And many women are ready
to pay an arm and a leg for this kind of pleasure, to have a good dancer all
to themselves for one song after another. I know of one woman, who took 25
private lessons with Oscar Mandagaran in three weeks, at a hundred dollars a
piece. For some it might be cheaper to get a life instead.
>
> If the 2 earlier conjectures are correct, this gender difference in the
> perception of tango could potential paint a dim picture of pleasure for
the
> ladies.
Yes. You would not believe what one puts up with just because one likes to
dance tango. ; )
>
> - "However, once the women start dancing with each other, the men may not
> ask them anymore"
> I am much disturbed hearing that, can any one explain why?
You answered it yourself: for many men tango is a means to their end of
dating. It is discouraging to see, that some women can obviously do very
well without them. ; )
Now, one last question I received in private and want to answer on the list:
What does Jorge Torres do that attracts the men ?
I have not asked, but my observations are:
He is no snob, he is friendly and accessible, and ready to offer advice,
during class and after class too, til midnight. He is a milonguero, besides
being a show dancer, after all.
He does not teach too many mindboggling step combinations, instead he
teaches the men how to "play" with the woman's body (yesyesyes, I know what
you are thinking), like how to put an arm around her, lead her gently,
protect her from falling, become aware of her balance, and which foot she is
standing on, how to lead the move exactly so that she can follow and do
exactly what he wants. Sometimes I feel like he is teaching the men how to
be a better lover. He even said last time: "You should not push and pull her
around. You should seduce her into doing the move." And the women he picks
out of the class in order to demonstrate the steps, any woman, young ones,
old ones, advanced ones, beginners, look wonderfully relaxed and sensuous,
when they are in his arms.
And then he makes a man dance the steps with him, he pretends to be a woman,
and he resists, wavers and falls all over the place if the guy does not lead
him right, to show him exactly what his lead his like, until the man can get
him to move correctly.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:08:11 -0600
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: there is no tango without a man
Awwwh Astrid, answer one more post, please. Next time your sushi is on me.
(Don't let me hanging there, I am dying to find out)
My original question was: why "However, once the women start dancing with
each other, the men may not ask them anymore"
Astrid answered was: "for many men tango is a means to their end of
dating. "
The two do not neccessary correlated with each other. The guy could still
be interested in that lady who is leading. That lady does not neccessarily
dance with another lady all the the time, or, that lady may also enjoy
dancing as a follower.
So what IS the reason the male stops asking that lady to dance?
Anyone???
Bibi (Chicago)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:29:36 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: there is no tango without a man
Bibib Wong wrote:
>"However, once the women start dancing with
>each other, the men may not ask them anymore"
>So what IS the reason the male stops asking that lady to dance?
Maybe the men are afraid that the women who have danced with other women
will discover that men are inferior dancers?? ;-)
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:51:15 -0300
From: SMC Administracion <adm@SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: there is no tango without a man
> Bibib Wong wrote:
>
> >"However, once the women start dancing with
> >each other, the men may not ask them anymore"
>
> >So what IS the reason the male stops asking that lady to dance?
>
A possible explanation
The man have danced with that woman just before , and she was " lead-
insensitive" ( or that was what the man believed).Then he looks the same
woman, with another woman , and she is totally different. Relaxed, nice
follower , etc.. He will feel embarrased thinking he was the insensitive
with the lead, or that the woman was checking his expertise. Then he refrain
to ask her again to dance.
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:22:05 -0000
From: white95r <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: there is no tango without a man
----- Original Message -----
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:12:35 -0500
From: Reba Perez <reba@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: there is no tango without a man
This is in response to Bibib, asking about men not asking women who lead
other women. I have a story to share. It's about a salsa experience, but it
may also relate to tango:
I once took a group of beginner salsa students out dancing at the Copacabana
in NYC. To get the ball rolling, I invited each of them (mostly women) for a
dance in which I led. To my delight, most of them were then asked to dance
by men who saw that they could move. To my chagrin, I hardly got asked to
dance at all.
It was a really interesting experience because it was so startling.
Usually--when I don't lead--I get asked to dance a fair bit. I had to put
two and two together.
My guess is that men understood it as if I was saying, through my leading,
that I did not need a man. Or perhaps that I thought I could do a man's job
better than a man. Or perhaps they thought that I was a woman who would not
want to play a more traditional feminine role.
(FYI, leading is fun, but I really love to follow and to dance with men!)
These are just guesses, my $.02. Not tango, nonetheless, a Latin setting.
Hope it adds up for you! Happy dancing to all, Reba in NYC
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:28:50 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: there is no tango without a man
>People dance for all kinds of reasons, so I should not generalise. However
>my experience is that men get disillusioned and frustrated with the pressure
>learning and having to retain figures. Where teaching concentrates on
>figures, the men fall away and classes end up with a surplus of women. I
>have found that men prefer tuition that concentrates on simple technique and
>structure. It takes the stress out and replaces it with enjoyment and a
>sense of achievement. As a result our weekly practica often has more men
>than women. After all, most men would prefer to dance with a woman than
>dance by themselves with a woman present.
>El Abrazo
>
>If anyone knows of any ways to attract more men to tango, please let me
>know. Before we announce a class on the tangotokyo website, me and the
>female moderator often worry together that this may just attract even more
>women, and it might be better to keep it secret, so that we get to dance
>more ourselves.
>
>Astrid
Some styles of tango are harder to teach and learn than other styles.
Some situations or communities are closer to 50/50 while others are
closer to 75/25.
An interesting study would be to try to discover what might be
different about situations with ratios closer to 50/50 when compared
with those closer to 75/25.
For example, it may be useful to see if the following polarities make
a difference:
- Teacher is a man or a woman
- Community is mature or new
- City is large, small, or college town
- Age level is evenly distributed or skewed to older or younger
- High percentage of dancers from ballroom, salsa, swing or no dance
experience
- Teacher emphasizes show, open-salon or close embrace
- Situation is a beginner class, Intermediate class, Advanced Class
or Workshop
- Situation is a week/weekend festival
- Situation is a casual practice, regular milonga, special milonga
Some general observations include the following:
- A special event, like a Christmas party attracts more women than a
regular milonga.
- In a mature community, intermediate classes often have more men than women.
- More women leave husbands at home, than men leave wives at home
Are these observations true in your community?
Style of tango.
The other important question has to do with your personal goals, the
goals of your local teachers, and the shared-goals of the community
(if any!).
- Is the goal to teach everybody to be on stage?
- Is it to dance socially?
- Is it to be able to get dances in Argentina?
- Is it to make money for the teacher?
My personal conclusion has been that it is much easier to retain the
guys and to graduate them to the community if the goal is to get them
to succeed at social dancing, and that this works even easier if the
style of dance being taught is a simpler, close-embrace, social
salon, rather than a more difficult open-embrace salon or
stage/exhibition tango.
I know I am in the minority in the US in valuing the simple, social
close embrace that is so common in Buenos Aires.
But, having taught both open and close embrace styles (for social
dancing), I have changed my teaching in accordance with that
conclusion.
Exhibition Style:
There is no question in my mind that if the style being taught is
Exhibition/Show tango, then the ratios will be highly skewed to extra
women, simply because of the difficulty of this style of dancing.
More than a few women have a dance background as a child. Athletics
may help the guys, but not enough.
Open-embrace salon IS more difficult than the
milonguero/close-embrace, but perhaps it isn't the style that matters
so much as the teacher's ability. I don't believe this to be true,
having done both, but I'm willing to listen to other's observations
on it.
What is really being taught in the US?
Do the close-embrace teachers actually succeed at turning out more
students than the open-embrace teachers?
How many teachers really teach a social version of open-embrace?
When I look around I see a very high percentage of open-embrace
instruction emphasizing very complicated, show-style figures not
appropriate to the social dance floor. Back-sacadas in "adv-beginner"
classes, single-axis turns in intermediate classes. Ganchos & boleos
for people who barely reach intermediate.
This probably says more about the preferences of the teachers rather
than the students.
It appears to me that most (75% or more?) of the teachers are
attracted personally to show tango or at least a fancy salon style.
In looking at workshops or festivals with visiting Argentines, the
percentage must be more like 90%. Look at the teacher's credentials.
How many of them emphasize skill on the social dance floor.
Being on stage and performing may attract some people, perhaps more
effective for the women?
The studio ballroom scene uses this strategy, and they seem to be
successful in attracting people (mostly older ladies?) for silver,
gold or bronze showcases with their teachers.
Maybe that is a model for a tango studio, but it isn't my cup of tea.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:20:15 -0800
From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: there is no tango without a man
John Lowry wrote:
> my experience is that men get disillusioned and frustrated with the
> pressure
> learning and having to retain figures. Where teaching concentrates
> on
> figures, the men fall away and classes end up with a surplus of women.
> I
> have found that men prefer tuition that concentrates on simple technique
> and
> structure.
Based on my own community, I find these comments to be problematic.
A) All of the follows I have spoken with hate pattern based teaching.
B) Many men in the comunity have developed an unhealthy obsession with
patterns, and are almost impossible to convince of the merit of connection,
musicality and simple steps.
One sure way to get rid of the better follows in San Diego is to teach
lots of patterns. Somehow, the practica and milonga that I prefer has
a surplus of qualified leads, which leaves me perplexed. I don't feel
that we dwell upon patterns, in fact it is usually quite the opposite.
Elsewhere I have not noticed the same disparity of numbers.
Anyway, it's interesting that the gender politics of each community are
so varied.
--
clayton beach
akumushi@onebox.com - email
(866) 248-7670 x7206 - voicemail/fax
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:48:10 -0800
From: Deborah Holm <dmholm@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: there is no tango without a man
I have not had the time to read all of your postings regarding
this situation. And I will try to read everything this weekend.
But, in order to have my "take" on the situation now, so as not
to be criticized for waiting too long, I will at least
submit my opinion now.
I have attempted for many years on this list to suggest that
there is only one problem with promoting Argentine Tango,
and that the problem is "no men."
Now it seems that there is actually a "thread" that is trying
to address this problem. I can't believe, after all these years,
that all of the participants of this list are going to address the
problem of how to "get" men into tango.
Women who are in tango just sit and wait for the men.
If you want the men to come to tango, you have to go out there
and get them. One woman, who is a professional woman enjoying
tango, probably has contact with at least five men in the ordinary
course of her day. If she even suggests to one of these men that
they might try tango, they might laugh her off. But there are still
the other four.
Of course a man will laugh her off. You have got to be kidding.
Tango? Please....
Some women will keep on trying for the rest of the men she knows.
And some women will just sit and wait for the men.
Deborah
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:06:18 -0600
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: there is no tango without a man
Dear List
I wish to thank a gentleman replying to me in private; I truly enjoyed
reading it although I do not neccessarily agree with his viewpoint.
I would like to share with everyone. In order to respect his desire for
privacy, I have withheld his name.
*******
Astrid wrote: - "However, once the women start dancing with each other, the
men may not ask them anymore"
I answered: I am much disturbed hearing that, can any one explain why?
Mr. X wrote: When I see women dancing together at a milonga, I assume that
that is their preference. I rarely (never?) ask those women to dance. 1)
In a milonga full of women I don't know, who is more likely to refuse me A)
A woman who likes to dance with women B) A woman who likes to dance with
men?
I think Mr. X might have over emphasized on the importance of gender
selection. In other Latin dance scene, it is common to see the mother and
daughter, or sisters dancing together too. Mr. X could not possibly imply
that there is hidden meaning to their dance-coupling? As far as I can
observe, other gentlemen continue asking these ladies to dance later on.
-----------
Mr. X asked: 2) Who is more likely to enjoy dancing with me? A) A woman who
likes to dance with women B) A woman who likes to dance with men.
My take? This brings to an important clarification of likes to dance
with". Some people come dancing because of the dance quality. We return
to the same restaurant because of the taste of food, the price, the
ambiance, not because of the gender of the chef, do we?
Thus, the person who has the connection with me will enjoy dancing with me.
That goes beyond the boundary of gender, age and race.
-----------------
Mr. X asked 3) If two women look like they dance equally well, good balance,
technique, etc., who is more likely to give me a dance with the "connected"
feeling, that 'heart-to-heart' moving-together where you just lose yourself
in the music, the dance, the emotions? A) A woman who prefers women B) A
woman who prefers men.
If I were to be asked the same, it is the person who has the skills to dance
compatibly with me. Many times, I notice that the person may dance
terrible with another person on the floor but fit perfect for me, or vice
versa.
-----------------
Mr. X commented 4) For me, dancing with a woman who prefers women is a
little like dancing with a man. I occasionally dance with men at practicas,
and frequently at classes. I do so for learning purposes, or to help the
other men. I find it extremely helpful and productive. I never do so at a
milonga. The milonga is a social occasion, not so much a class. This doesn't
preclude a lot of education taking place at a milonga, mind you. I often
learn a lot of things at a milonga.
I think I answered Mr. X s question about female dancing in salsa and cumbia
scene, which is also a social setting.
---------
Mr. X concluded: That is why I rarely will ask a woman to dance at a
milonga, if I see her dancing with other women. However, if she danced well,
and I saw her sitting down a lot, and looking like she wanted to dance, I
*might* possibly ask her. Both because I don't like to see people sitting
all the time, and because I figure she might be desperate enough, despite
her preferences, to dance with a guy she didn't know.
Bravo, because I think Mr. X has just nailed the issue. For places with
more ladies than men, the ladies are left sitting more than the male. It
is a fact that ladies complaint about it.
So, some ladies started to learn the lead so that they could simply dance.
Is this reaction irrational in a free society, such as many advanced
countries that take pride on equal right?
I presume at this point we agree that both female and male are all human
being. If they come to dance, why punish the ladies by chaining them to the
chairs?
It is my turn to raise a question:
*) If there were two person, who would the lady prefer dancing with? A) one
specific male, B) one specific female?
My take is that if the lady is purely into dancing quality, not for any
ulterior motive such as "honing in" that specific male for a relationship,
she might choose the person with whom if she can dance better. It could be
the male or the female, but I will not blindly jump into picking one because
of their gender.
The point is that, in a night of milonga, there are so many chances to dance
with various people. In one tanda if this lady chooses to dance with
another lady for her quality of dance, in the next tanda, she could choose
to accept dancing with another gentleman, for the skills of that male can
offer. Why should this woman be black-listed by the male, particularly by
those who never even has the chance to dance with her as in Mr. X s case?
In a free society, isolating other non-dance motives, choosing to dance with
male vs. a female, is no more different than choosing to dance with one male
vs. another male. If a lady turns Mr. X down but accept a Mr. Y s
invitation, will Mr. X blackball (no punt intended) Mr. Y too?
Darwin's survival theory may apply here. May the best dancers win.
Thx for reading this post.
BB
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:15:58 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: women who prefer women (was: there is no tango without a man)
Hi Bibi, Mr. X,
I see this in a less complicated light. Some women really enjoy dancing the
role of the man. To do this they will ask other women to dance. If there are
many more women than men at a milonga, this serves a dual purpose. The women
who would ordinarily sit out will get a chance to dance, and the women who
want to lead get their pleasure as well. No mistery or controversy here.
Now, if I see a couple of women dancing together, apiladas and totally
"blissed out", I will assume that they really enjoy this. Also, if I see
them dance with a man and their expression is less "blissed out", I will
assume they prefer the woman partner. Also, sometimes I'll notice that some
of these women will dance better with other women than with most of the guys
that see them dance with. For whatever reason, they seem to click better
with their women partners. When I notice that a woman appears to be in the
much sought after "blissed out" state, whether her partner is a man or
woman, I tend to think that they have a special connection. I think that
special connections between people are not "inviting" to 3rd or 4th parties.
I tend to respect that and not intrude. Perhaps other men have the same sort
of feeling and that is why they do not ask some of these women to dance.
There is another aspect of this theme. When a woman assumes the man's role
in a social dance situation, she changes the whole dynamics of her
participation in the dance. Like it or not, she assumes a competitive role
and becomes something other than just a potential partner for the men there.
It's a funny thing really, while she is still obviously a woman, her role is
no longer clear. I think that at a basic level, the men *and* women in a
milonga shift their position and awareness and change how they will act with
this new "partner/rival". Someone wrote about experiencing this in a salsa
club. I'm not at all surprised, if a woman assumes the role of the man, she
has changed something and this change has ramifications. I've seen this also
in other dance venues. I don't think it is a conscious reaction, I also
don't think is something that can be easily changed.
Generally, If I know the women involved, I don't have any problem asking
either to dance (if I'm so inclined). I realize that among friends or in a
close circle or aquaintances, this is not something very significant. I do
believe however, that any man who is not a part of the "in crowd" will feel
reluctant to "compete" with women on the dance floor. Heck, it's hard
enough for the poor guy to compete with other men, let alone to deal with
insecurity and to top it all with the possibility that he's going to be
compared unfavorably, with a woman, in his role as a man .
Gender bending tangos to all ;-)
Manuel
