2673 timelines
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:40:00 EDT
From: Crrtango@AOL.COM
Subject: timelines
The subject of lyrics is morphing into another discussion. Of course there
are many beautiful lyrics in tango and they do enhance the dance but the main
point was that it isn't a requirement to learning the dance. Also to judge them
as sexist or degrading isn't the point either because we are looking back from
a different perspective.
As for lunfardo it was not something strange and mysterious that was spoken
only by only certain people like "compadritos" but has more to do with the
fact that so many immigrants were Italian. Many lunfardo words are actually just
Italian borrowed freely. You can almost learn the lyrics by keeping an Italian
dictionary along side your Spanish one. Of course along the way slang mixed
in and even English and French.
But on to another subject:
Doing a radio show, I often notice things like dates and musicians and by
reading different tango histories I notice the source of song titles like "nino
bien, el morocho y el oriental, lo de Laura," etc. but more interestingly I
notice that tango styles and what is perceived as "old" or "new " tangos in the
golden age sense of a sound from the early or late 1920s as opposed to 1940s
and 1950s is often not very clear and distinct. The sound of a particular style
does not always reveal its time reference. I once mentioned to someone that I
did a show dedicated to Roberto Firpo, both his own recordings and his
compositions done by others. His reply was "that's old stuff, that's history." He was
speaking about the sound of it of course but the sound had little to do with
the historical recording dates. Firpo was a purist and although he sometimes
had a large orchestra and teamed up with Canaro on occasion, he preferred a
quartet and consciously preserved the "old sound" in his recordings. The actual
recording dates of many of his songs are the late forties and early fifties.
This was the epoch of DiAngelis, Troilo, Tanturi and the "big band" sound of
Mores, Basso, et al. But if you pay attention to the dates of orchestras like
Fresedo you will hear already his more "modern" sound beginning in the early
thirties. It is the same with Troilo's first recordings around 1938 which already
have his mature sound and certainly sound more modern than Firpo. This is the
same time as D'Arienzo's peak. (Adding to the confusion in Troilo's case was
the fact that he was only 18 when he began to play with his own group.) So at
any year during that era, e.g. 1938-39, one might hear a number of sounds of
tango and not a strict linear stylistic progression over the years. Songs like
"Chique" (made famous by Pugliese later) by Ricardo Brignolo was from the
thirties, as was Pugliese's composition "Recuerdo." There was a stylistic
evolution of course, but in many respects it had already happened, especially in more
technical areas like the structure of the orquesta tipica which had already
reached its mature form by the thirties. People like Canaro had even amplified
the orchestra to large numbers (as many as eight bandoneons or more) by then to
accomodate large venues like Luna Park in the days before electric
amplification.
Any other thoughts on this?
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:03:31 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: timelines
Charles wrote:
<As for lunfardo it was not something strange and mysterious that was spoken
only by only certain people like "compadritos" but has more to do with the
fact that so many immigrants were Italian.>
My thoughts:
I have read that compadritos spoke both calo and lunfardo -- two vernacular
languages of what the porten~o society considered then the underworld. The
Lunfardo was the language of thieves. There was a rivalry between
compadritos and thieves in everything they pursued.
Women and their offspring acquired the skill to speak calo and lunfardo on
their own as the easiest way to communicate for the lack of better figures
of speech.
The Lunfardo permeated the family because it conveyed to people the
impression that being astute or "ser vivo" was the norm by default.
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:41:27 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: timelines
Charles wrote among other things:
<The sound of a particular style does not always reveal its time reference>
My 2 cents on time reference:
*The sound quality may be a representation of the recording technology
available then.
*The full swing incorporation of the piano and bandoneon into the orquestas
de tango did not really started until after the 1930's. Most tango
musicians knew how to play a larger selection of tangos with other
instruments other than with the piano and the bandoneon. It took time for
musicians to get past the learning curve of these two instruments.
*There are discographies available for some tango interpreters, but one has
to track down the music.
Other thoughts:
*Following very closely the original interpretation of a tango composition
may or may not be key to tango musicians, but to me is a treat to listen to
tangos which follow the original tango composition.
Bruno
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:15:11 EDT
From: Crrtango@AOL.COM
Subject: timelines cont.
Bruno wrote:
"My 2 cents on time reference:
*The sound quality may be a representation of the recording technology
available then."
I wasn't referring to the technical sound quality of recordings per se but to
the stylistic qualities of the musical phrasing, the melodic emphasis, etc.
Besides, when Firpo recorded in the fifties recording technology was very
sophisticated yet he continued to play in a manner more reminiscent of the twenties
and earlier in an effort to preserve what he felt was the authentic pure
sound of original tango.
*The full swing incorporation of the piano and bandoneon into the orquestas
de tango did not really started until after the 1930's. Most tango
musicians knew how to play a larger selection of tangos with other
instruments other than with the piano and the bandoneon. It took time for
musicians to get past the learning curve of these two instruments. "
Unless you are referring only to the specific year 1930, I don't believe this
is correct, with all due respect. At least not according to what I have
observed of recording dates and read in a number of books. It definitely was not
after the decade of the thirties because D'Arienzo was recording with his
orchestra in 1935 as was Canaro before that. Fresedo was recording in the early
thirties and even the late twenties with bandoneon and piano. Troilo's first
recordings were in 1938. Minotto di Cicco (bandoneonist for Canaro) even
commissioned in 1937 a custom bandoneon from Alfred Arnold with
one-hundred-and-eighteen buttons instead of the traditional seventy-one, thinking that it might
become the standard but it never really became popular. There were other
instrumentals being played but the bandoneon was there since the mid-twenties at least
if not earlier and the piano was present by the early thirties. The piano may
have not been used at all the milongas, by small trios for ex. because it was
not very portable. Firpo is actually the person responsible for fully
incorporating it into the orquesta tipica. In fact it became so popular so fast that
many guitar players switched to it and had to learn it quickly to stay up to
date (and make a living). But since they were not trained in the traditional
manner, they more or less imitated the rhythmic guitar sound with their left hand,
something referred to as "bordoneo." This style persisted and evolved into
the now-characteristic left-hand movements that pianists use. This can be seen
beautifully and dramatically in the filmed concert of Pugliese playing at the
Teatro Colon in the late eighties.
Yes, there were other instruments being played but by the thirties, piano and
bandoneon were a more or less permanent fixture of the orquesta tipica.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:51:45 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: timelines cont.
Bruno wrote:
*The full swing incorporation of the piano and bandoneon into the orquestas
de tango did not really started until after the 1930's. Most tango
musicians knew how to play a larger selection of tangos with other
instruments other than with the piano and the bandoneon. It took time for
musicians to get past the learning curve of these two instruments. "
Charles wrote:
<Unless you are referring only to the specific year 1930, I don't believe
this is correct, with all due respect. At least not according to what I
have observed of recording dates and read in a number of books. It
definitely was not after the decade of the thirties because D'Arienzo was
recording with his orchestra in 1935 as was Canaro before that. [....]
Yes, there were other instruments being played but by the thirties, piano
and bandoneon were a more or less permanent fixture of the orquesta tipica.>
My answer:
I would like to quote a paragraph from the book "El Compadrito y el Tango"
by Andres M. Carretero, page 89 (La Guardia Vieja).
"The Piano became a permanent fixture in the cafes barriales y del centro,
as a result of the stronger acceptance of tango by the poor and middle
classes in the porten~o society."
"Over time the piano and the bandoneon would displace the flute, the
clarinete, and the guitar, but as we have mentioned before it happened
gradually. Well into the 1930's there were trios, cuartetos and orquestas,
which counted on the flute, the guitar, and the guitar as their permanent
instruments".
Andres M. Carretero provides a list of guitar, flute, violin, and clarinete
players with the assertion that these interpreters were no less important
than others who transcended in the history of tango.
Antonio Chiappe, Sebastian Ramos Mejia, Floreano Benvenuto, El Negro
Eduardo, Pablo Romero, Cipriano Nava, Pedro Laurenz, Antonio Cippola,
Miguel Tanga, Pablo Bustos, Felix Riglos, Jose Galarza, Emilio y Osvaldo
Fresedo, Pedro Maffia, Francisco Postiglione, Lius Perez, Francisco Canaro
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:13:37 EDT
From: Crrtango@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: timelines
Greetings,
In response to my assertion that bandoneon and piano were well established in
the orquesta tipica by the thirties Bruno wrote:
<<<"I would like to quote a paragraph from the book "El Compadrito y el
Tango"
by Andres M. Carretero, page 89 (La Guardia Vieja).
"The Piano became a permanent fixture in the cafes barriales y del centro,
as a result of the stronger acceptance of tango by the poor and middle
classes in the porten~o society."
"Over time the piano and the bandoneon would displace the flute, the
clarinete, and the guitar, but as we have mentioned before it happened
gradually. Well into the 1930's there were trios, cuartetos and orquestas,
which counted on the flute, the guitar, and the guitar as their permanent
instruments".
Andres M. Carretero provides a list of guitar, flute, violin, and clarinete
players with the assertion that these interpreters were no less important
than others who transcended in the history of tango.
Antonio Chiappe, Sebastian Ramos Mejia, Floreano Benvenuto, El Negro
Eduardo, Pablo Romero, Cipriano Nava, Pedro Laurenz, Antonio Cippola,
Miguel Tanga, Pablo Bustos, Felix Riglos, Jose Galarza, Emilio y Osvaldo
Fresedo, Pedro Maffia, Francisco Postiglione, Lius Perez, Francisco Canaro">>>
Thanks for the info. Obviously nothing is strictly black or white and of
course there were still varied instrumental ensembles still playing. Many authors
over-emphasize the presence of bandoneon and piano and tend to under-emphasize
the fact that other instruments continued to appear. I know that Canaro used
clarinet and drums and Fresedo used drums and the guitar persisted as well. It
would probably be better to say that the mature form of the orquesta tipica
with bandoneon and piano had already been established by then and was gradually
displacing the other forms. It is still interesting that they ultimately
disappeared from the structure that we now consider classic for the orchestra. I
have always thought that the lack of a drummer (with a few exceptions) was the
most curious aspect of tango because almost all orchestras in all cultures
have some type of tympani or percussion (excluding the piano of course.) When
one does hear it in tango, it seems almost redundant.
Although slightly unrelated I have sometimes wondered how the bandoneon
players in DiSarli's orchestra must have felt since he relegated them to mostly
just a rhythmic role in his arrangements, preferring to give the role of melody
and solos more to the violins. Bandoneon players were accustomed to playing the
lead and being the principal instrument in most songs. I know of only two or
three songs that feature bandoneon solos, notably "El Choclo" and "La
Cumparsita" even though he had one of the greatest bandoneon players, Federico
Scorticatti, in his band. I know that he was difficult to work for and even disbanded
his orchestra once over some dispute with them. Perhaps over that :-)
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:10:34 -0500
From: Hector <maselli@GATE.NET>
Subject: timelines cont.
On Aug 25, 2004, at 2:00 AM, Automatic digest processor wrote:
>I wasn't referring to the technical sound quality of recordings per se but to
>the stylistic qualities of the musical phrasing, the melodic emphasis, etc.
>Besides, when Firpo recorded in the fifties recording technology was very
>sophisticated yet he continued to play in a manner more reminiscent of the twenties
>and earlier in an effort to preserve what he felt was the authentic pure
>sound of original tango.
Are you aware that you are talking about the son of Roberto Firpo, who was born in 1927?
HM
