2862 True tango and nuevo tango
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 22:02:40 -0700
From: Jay Jenkins <jayjenkins888@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: True tango and nuevo tango
It seems that the lady likes to dance with the elderly in the nursing homes of Buenos Aires. She enjoys the crowded floors where every couple is allowed a square foot to do all the connection with your partner right there, this is really interesting, to do tiny, tiny, steps back and forth or side to side, a then all of a sudden when there is an opening she executes a back ocho prior adjustment of her partner's oxygen mask. Then she dances to the music and to the oxygen bubbles as well. It is really nice. We all enjoy her dancing and her care and interest in her partners, she is very considerate and always takes them back to their wheel chair at the end of the tanda. The good part about the crowded floor is that this helps to keep them in upright position as it is not possible to fall down. She has used this technique even in the crowded subway of the city at rush hour.
It is also interesting how developed she has the "sense of the intention", when her partner cannot move he directs her with the intention and she executes all those difficult steps, back and forth and side to side.
Then she reminds everybody, (and she is right to do so) hurry up, come to Buenos Aires, take the next plain, - to dance with the old milongueros. She does not know how long they are going to last. There are few left.
It is nice to see people doing the true tango, it is not?.
Cheers,
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 00:55:23 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
Dear tango list:
I find it disheartening that people joke about the old age of the
milongueros. Latin cultures treat their elders with respect. Like in most
South American countries, we live with our elders and do not put them in
nursing homes.
Best regards,
Bruno
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 11:52:11 +0200
From: Aurelio Caliaro <aureliocaliaro@YAHOO.DE>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
Jay,
it seems there is a misunderstanding about what people
think about when they speak of Tango. Is it Tango
Argentino? You obviously don't speak about that one,
because if you did, you should care about how Tango is
danced in Buenos Aires, and respect that, trying to
understand what is behind it, trying to imitate that
way of dancing. According to Rubin "Milonga" Tango
died in Buenos Aires in 1960 in the sense that it is
not developed further. There is no true or nontrue
Tango, but there is a true or nontrue Tango Argentino.
If you want to develop Tango, feel free, but please
call it differently, not just Tango without attribute,
as most people here think that you mean Tango
Argentino. This mailing list _is_ about Tango
Argentino. Do it as the Englishmen, their style (the
ballroom tango) is in some places called English
Tango. You should call yours American Tango, Jay's
Tango or however you want to call it (if ever it is
Tango). But not in a way that people think you might
mean Argentino.
But whatever you do, before going on dancing, please
learn to respect other people and their way of being
(and dancing). Whatever style you dance, I really
can't imagine that you could be successful in a
ballroom with such an attitude.
Aurelio
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:46:10 +0200
From: B?IkVjc2VkeSDBcm9uIiA?= <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
Dear Tangueros,
> that it is not developed further. There is no true or
> nontrue Tango, but there is a true or nontrue Tango Argentino.
>
> If you want to develop Tango, feel free, but please call it
> differently, not just Tango without attribute, as most
> people here think that you mean Tango Argentino. This
> But whatever you do, before going on dancing, please learn
> to respect other people and their way of being (and
> dancing). Whatever style you dance, I really can't imagine
> that you could be successful in a ballroom with such an attitude.
I simply can't imagine how could any of you consider themselves able to
see 150 years of tango dancing as a static thing.
In the history of dancing (even something as strict as ballet !!!)
evolution (change) was always there. In a strictly popular style like
tango, which has never been canonized, the idea of no-change is simply
stupid.
This also brings about the idea, that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS
AUTHENTIC TANGO. There is something which people call authentic, but
that is not a strict (clearly defined) style. Actually, it is not even
ONE style. And the criteria to include a certain style or not is not
strict either. (no one person or group may claim the right to be an
authority of defining this - this dance did not emanate from one clearly
definable source.)
The differences between styles are also imaginary: every tango dancer
has a different style. (even one copies another) You may distinguish
_trends_ in style. But you cannot enforce trends. You cannot say, that
one trend (even if it is the most popular) the one and only acceptable
way doing it. Especially, because not one style exists in pure form.
Actually, if we could come up with a strict and exact definition of
styles (such as apilado, salon, escenario OR mid-BsAs, Denver, Nijmegen
etc.), there would not be a single person who would actually dance in
these 'pure' styles.
Of course, you can ask "then what makes tango to be tango?". Actually,
only one thing: people attribute certain concepts to what they believe
tango is. More simply: everything is tango, what people call tango.
There are people who have more knowledge on the available forms of
tango, it's history: they probably will consider a narrower set of
things tango then the average urban folk, who couldn't distinguish btw
tango argentino and international ballroom tango. However, the concept
itself changes based on the what a person experienced to be considered
tango by others! Clearly, this cannot be a base for an "objective" tango
definition. This is the problem with social sciences and more specificly
with art. There are no strict definitions, as you will always find
exceptions to a strict rule and some things cannot be defined at all.
Of course you can say that the tango that is danced in BsAs is the REAL
one, and everything else is bogus, but in reality, it is only a trend.
Only a common consensus on the subject may declare that "from now on
we'll only call tango what is danced in El Viruta by the elderly". With
this you state that most people on this list considering themselves fans
of this tango, can't dance it... What are the chances then to get them
approve your definition???
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:05:14 -0700
From: Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
Aron writes:
[del]
>Of course, you can ask "then what makes tango to be tango?". Actually,
>only one thing: people attribute certain concepts to what they believe
>tango is. More simply: everything is tango, what people call tango.
[del]
....and so on.
Aron gives us an amusing post-modernist treatment of definitions on the subject
of tango. I reminds me of the equivalent post-modernistic discussions I've
read elsewhere on what art is, where literally any and every crap is supposed
to be considered art as long as the self-proclaimed artist says it
is. Obviously, though, this is an entirely valid line of reasoning for at
least its believers.
So far, though, no one of the insulted with the said article is addressing it
in on its substance(*), but instead seem to be hung up on the author using the
word "true" to denote tango argentino - the social dance that reflects and is
danced to the tango argentino music.
Even without addressing any further points, it seems to me labelling the
latter-mentioned tango as 'true' is entirely justified, as a response to
others conveniently labelling their tango 'new', thus taking all the positive
connotations of the word and implicitly applying all the negative ones that
follow towards the one they now decry against labelling as 'true'. No wonder -
obviously it is much better to call it 'old' or 'traditional' or 'stale' -
calling it 'true' kind of takes away all the subtle semantic leverage out of
'tango nuevo'.
So I say - let's have 'true' versus 'new'. It seems inconsistent and/or
hypocritical for 'new' to complain when the 'other side' snatches just as good
a label for their own.
Best regards,
Konstantin
(*) I think the substance involves the charge that the new tango is divorced
from the music and the partnership (to different extents), and that it is not
a strictly improvisational dance anymore in that some or a lot of the
steps/sequences cannot be reliably led to a person who has no prior knowledge
of them. I would love people to address that instead of trying to insult the
milongueros or the person that posted the link to the article.
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:15:50 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango [Konstantin]
Konstantin writes:
(*) I think the substance involves the charge that the new tango is divorced
from the music and the partnership (to different extents), and that it is
not
a strictly improvisational dance anymore in that some or a lot of the
steps/sequences cannot be reliably led to a person who has no prior
knowledge
of them. I would love people to address that instead of trying to insult the
milongueros or the person that posted the link to the article.
Konstantin, I agree completely. So here's my 2 cents.
IMO Bartek polarized the far extremes of the wide continuum that is the
total of Argentine Tango, or Argentine-Tango-inspired styles (the latter
term might be more acceptable to those who contend that the show styles are
not "real" tango...)
I agree that he is probably accurate in his definition of both
extremes, listing valid characteristics that describe those two FAR EXTREME
polarities.
However regardless that I agree with his characterization, I have 1
major objection:
Relevance: In the case of the "True" tango pole, there is relevance in
his list, because this style is in fact danced by many people in BsAs and
elsewhere.
However I see no relevance to his other extreme pole, because I do not
know anyone that dances that heartless, connection-less, performance-based,
show style. I think in sum that he is over-reacting, in an instructor-snob
sort of way, to those instructors that teach complicated, show-type step
patterns.
In my experience in the USA, admittedly limited to 4 cities/states,
almost no one dances either of those two extreme styles. Almost everyone
dances somewhere in between. Some are more milonguero, some are more showy.
For Bartek to condemn or negatively judge the far showy extreme is fine. Not
many people on the list will disagree, I think. But where does he draw the
line? We have no way to know. If someone, once a night, when the floor thins
out, executes a step that is leaning towards showy as opposed to
milonguearo, does that cross his line into condemnation?
Dealing with extremes can be illustrative from an academic point of
view in order to set the boundaries, but in dealing with the wide variation
of styles in the middle, it's almost worthless.
To sort of diverge into specifics...
I've taken several workshops with Miriam and Hugo, who I think typify
the category of instructors that Bartek rails against. They teach very long,
difficult, complex patterns, that often are only usable in their entirety on
a performance dancefloor. And while I've "had my fill" and don't enroll in
their classes anymore, I must say I learned a lot by studying with them.
Mainly, their patterns are so complex, with such unusual changes between
segments, that they require a depth of analysis of body/foot position and
dynamics that is really on the same level as the analysis that Gustavo and
Fabian apply in their Tango Nuevo system. In order to do their patterns, you
must have an extraordinary attention to detail and precision in your steps
and timing. Bartek may call that athletic, but I believe it is a skill that
benefits any tango dancer.
Jay in Portland
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:59:12 -0700
From: Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango [Konstantin]
>
>Konstantin writes:
>
>(*) I think the substance involves the charge that the new tango is divorced
>from the music and the partnership (to different extents), and that it is
>not
>a strictly improvisational dance anymore in that some or a lot of the
>steps/sequences cannot be reliably led to a person who has no prior
>knowledge
>of them. I would love people to address that instead of trying to insult the
>milongueros or the person that posted the link to the article.
Jay Rabe writes:
>
>Konstantin, I agree completely. So here's my 2 cents.
>
> IMO Bartek polarized the far extremes of the wide continuum that is the
>total of Argentine Tango, or Argentine-Tango-inspired styles (the latter
>term might be more acceptable to those who contend that the show styles are
>not "real" tango...)
> I agree that he is probably accurate in his definition of both
>extremes, listing valid characteristics that describe those two FAR EXTREME
>polarities.
[del]
> In my experience in the USA, admittedly limited to 4 cities/states,
>almost no one dances either of those two extreme styles. Almost everyone
>dances somewhere in between. Some are more milonguero, some are more showy.
[del]
> Dealing with extremes can be illustrative from an academic point of
>view in order to set the boundaries, but in dealing with the wide variation
>of styles in the middle, it's almost worthless.
Well I agree in that I was just thinking along similar lines. It is likely
that Bartek is using hyperbolization as an illustrative technique to highlight
the negative tendencies that maybe he has seen developing, thus his definition
of new tango, for the purposes of the article, encompasses the extreme and
almost nothing else. In fact, it can be interpreted that by listing the
[negative] characteristics of the new tango he is indeed giving a precise
definition of what the term means for the purposes of his article.
Consequently, we will see here testimonials as to how the tango nuevo
different people have seen does not have some or almost all of the features on
that list. However technically Bartek's assertions are effectively, if
trivially, immune from all these rebuttals because anything that does not have
all the listed features clearly does not fit the definition of new tango in
his article :-)
More seriously, there is a large grey zone and Bartek's article is not
addressing it. I would have enjoyed a detailed analysis from him as well.
> To sort of diverge into specifics...
> I've taken several workshops with Miriam and Hugo, who I think typify
>the category of instructors that Bartek rails against. They teach very long,
>difficult, complex patterns, that often are only usable in their entirety on
>a performance dancefloor. And while I've "had my fill" and don't enroll in
>their classes anymore, I must say I learned a lot by studying with them.
>Mainly, their patterns are so complex, with such unusual changes between
>segments, that they require a depth of analysis of body/foot position and
>dynamics that is really on the same level as the analysis that Gustavo and
>Fabian apply in their Tango Nuevo system. In order to do their patterns, you
>must have an extraordinary attention to detail and precision in your steps
>and timing. Bartek may call that athletic, but I believe it is a skill that
>benefits any tango dancer.
Absolutely, one can always take advantage of particular analyses or methods
and techniques even if one does not agree with some more extreme examples of
where some practising these have taken them.
Incidentally, Bartek's choice in his article, talking about the new tango
extremes may not be arbitrary if he perceives the current extreme as the
logical end or direction where all in the continuum may eventually be heading
towards _unless_ one stays true to the broad characteristics or aspects of
tango argentino - the dance expressing the tango argentino music, having a
connection with the dancing partner, and tango as an improvisational dance,
being three fundamental ones of these. Thus I am inclined to interpret his
article along those lines.
One of these aspects that I have seen developing, and I have no well-formed
idea if it is correlated with 'new tango' dancing practitioners or has other
underlying causes, is the separation of tango argentino the dance from tango
argentino the music. My personal view is that the dance is subordinate to the
music in the sense that it expresses the music, and the music is the soul of
the dance. I don't know if this perceived separation would facilitate the
extremes Bartek is warning against, but it just might, and in any case I do
not see it as a positive development; admittedly, though, it seems confined
mostly to North America.
Best regards,
Konstantin
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:05:46 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango [Konstantin]
Does STYLE determine AUTHENTICITY?
(1) Possibly:
- Sergio points out, the great majority of tango in Buenos Aires is
close-embrace in the so-called salon or milonguero variants, but that
the other styles are available, if not so common. He doesn't give any
ratios, but maybe he implies that Buenos Aires is 75% Close-salon &
Milonguero vs 25% Nuevo & Stage?
- I've noticed in my travels in the US and Europe that the majority of
tango is done in huge, open ballrooms, in a fairly open-embrace, in the
style variants of fantasy, stage, fancy-salon, nuevo. You can also find
close-embrace, social salon and close-embrace milonguero, but maybe it
is exactly the reverse of Buenos Aires: 3/4
Open-embrace/fantasy/salon/nuevo vs 1/4 close-salon/milonguero?
- Bouncing from partner to partner, sharing our experiences, learning
with each other around the US, we would inevitably develop a style of
tango quite different from the majority style in Buenos Aires.
- I have had the experience of arriving in Argentina, only to discover
that what I'd learned didn't correspond AT ALL to "what they do at a
milonga in Buenos Aires".
(2) Not really:
In my opinion, authenticity is really about sense of music, energy,
dynamics, feeling, how the embrace feels, sense of floor-craft, concept
of what it means to dance. This is the huge value the older dancers in
Buenos Aires have to offer.
Sure, we are free to dance however we want, but we are learning the
dance of another culture, and it is important to learn the "authentic",
meaning "how THEY do it", before we go invent something else.
On Oct 6, 2004, at 11:15 AM, Jay Rabe wrote:
> Konstantin writes:
>
> (*) I think the substance involves the charge that the new tango is
> divorced
> from the music and the partnership (to different extents), and that it
> is
> not a strictly improvisational dance anymore in that some or a lot of
> the
> steps/sequences cannot be reliably led to a person who has no prior
> knowledge of them. I would love people to address that instead of
> trying to
> insult the milongueros or the person that posted the link to the
> article.
>
> Konstantin, I agree completely. So here's my 2 cents.
>
> IMO Bartek polarized the far extremes of the wide continuum that
> is the
> total of Argentine Tango, or Argentine-Tango-inspired styles (the
> latter
> term might be more acceptable to those who contend that the show
> styles are
> not "real" tango...)
> ... In my experience in the USA, admittedly limited to 4
> cities/states,
> almost no one dances either of those two extreme styles. Almost
> everyone
> dances somewhere in between. Some are more milonguero, some are more
> showy.
> For Bartek to condemn or negatively judge the far showy extreme is
> fine. Not
> many people on the list will disagree, I think. But where does he draw
> the
> line? We have no way to know. If someone, once a night, when the floor
> thins
> out, executes a step that is leaning towards showy as opposed to
> milonguearo, does that cross his line into condemnation?
> ...
> Jay in Portland
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:09:07 -0700
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
I dance the style of Tango that I prefer, my partner
calls it Tango, and people watching call it Tango. My
Tango is different now than it was last month, and
five years ago. Years ago, I saw Tango dancers whom I
thought were very good. They have not developed much
over the years, and now they are not very good.
Things need to change or they spoil.
If you're interested in performing a historically
accurate style of Tango as it was danced in 1935, or
in 1910, then there will be one True Tango: the one
that you are re-creating. Fantasia or Nuevo would be
completely wrong.
If you want to dance the music, the true tango is the
one that's your own.
Larry in Cleveland
_______________________________
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 19:35:08 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
As Kos suggests, I will leave aside the largely spurious and value-laden
'new' versus 'true' labels.
There are difficulties of definition, as others have pointed out. The
article largely deals in extremes - but each extreme point is only occupied
by a few individuals. I will look closer to the middle of the distribution,
rather than the outliers.
> (*) I think the substance involves the charge that the new tango is divorced
> from the music and the partnership (to different extents),
This can be true in either form.
I have not seen any necessary correlation between whether people are
teaching/learning the style danced by the old milongueros or that danced by
others, and their level of connectedness with each other or the music. It
comes down to the quality of teaching, the attitudes of the student, and
their aptitude for dance. For many people with the right teacher,
close-embrace 'milonguero' style is perfect for learning these things; but
for others it requires far more balance and body awareness than they have,
and they dance unmusically and connected to their partner only in the most
banal physical sense. For many of these, learning simple tango nuevo
technique can allow them to dance with the music and their partner.
> and that it is not
> a strictly improvisational dance anymore in that some or a lot of the
> steps/sequences cannot be reliably led to a person who has no prior knowledge
> of them.
This is true of people at a beginner level in either form.
As Bartek says, 'The social form of tango "salon tango" itself requires a
great amount of training. To master the walk, the embrace, the forward and
back ocho, the boleo, the molinete, the enrosque, the syncopations, the
traspie, the various pivots, the ganchos, and the pencil require months of
practice.'
I agree, and these are precisely 'steps/sequences which cannot be reliably
led to a person who has no prior knowledge of them'. Many of them can be led
to a person who is new to tango, but has a lot of dance or sport experience
which has given them strength, balance etc and a sense of partnering and
spontaneity - eg a good swing dancer, or an aikido practitioner. This same
person can be led in many tango nuevo style movements with roughly the same
degree of success, IMHO.
The parts of 'new tango' (in Bartek's sense) that are not leadable, I would
basically consider part of stage tango - although as others have pointed
out, even the old milongueros, given a chance with a favourite partner, will
dance things which only work because of their familiarity.
These non-leadable things may have come from some extension of tango nuevo
analysis or technique or inspiration, but they should not tar tango nuevo
with the 'not leadable' brush.
YMMV
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:36:00 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: True tango and nuevo tango
Tom Stermitz wrote:
"Sure, we are free to dance however we want, but we are learning the
dance of another culture, and it is important to learn the "authentic",
meaning "how THEY do it", before we go invent something else."
Thank you.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 12:06 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] True tango and nuevo tango [Konstantin]
Does STYLE determine AUTHENTICITY?
(1) Possibly:
- Sergio points out, the great majority of tango in Buenos Aires is
close-embrace in the so-called salon or milonguero variants, but that
the other styles are available, if not so common. He doesn't give any
ratios, but maybe he implies that Buenos Aires is 75% Close-salon &
Milonguero vs 25% Nuevo & Stage?
- I've noticed in my travels in the US and Europe that the majority of
tango is done in huge, open ballrooms, in a fairly open-embrace, in the
style variants of fantasy, stage, fancy-salon, nuevo. You can also find
close-embrace, social salon and close-embrace milonguero, but maybe it
is exactly the reverse of Buenos Aires: 3/4
Open-embrace/fantasy/salon/nuevo vs 1/4 close-salon/milonguero?
- Bouncing from partner to partner, sharing our experiences, learning
with each other around the US, we would inevitably develop a style of
tango quite different from the majority style in Buenos Aires.
- I have had the experience of arriving in Argentina, only to discover
that what I'd learned didn't correspond AT ALL to "what they do at a
milonga in Buenos Aires".
(2) Not really:
In my opinion, authenticity is really about sense of music, energy,
dynamics, feeling, how the embrace feels, sense of floor-craft, concept
of what it means to dance. This is the huge value the older dancers in
Buenos Aires have to offer.
Sure, we are free to dance however we want, but we are learning the
dance of another culture, and it is important to learn the "authentic",
meaning "how THEY do it", before we go invent something else.
On Oct 6, 2004, at 11:15 AM, Jay Rabe wrote:
> Konstantin writes:
>
> (*) I think the substance involves the charge that the new tango is
> divorced
> from the music and the partnership (to different extents), and that it
> is
> not a strictly improvisational dance anymore in that some or a lot of
> the
> steps/sequences cannot be reliably led to a person who has no prior
> knowledge of them. I would love people to address that instead of
> trying to
> insult the milongueros or the person that posted the link to the
> article.
>
> Konstantin, I agree completely. So here's my 2 cents.
>
> IMO Bartek polarized the far extremes of the wide continuum that
> is the
> total of Argentine Tango, or Argentine-Tango-inspired styles (the
> latter
> term might be more acceptable to those who contend that the show
> styles are
> not "real" tango...)
> ... In my experience in the USA, admittedly limited to 4
> cities/states,
> almost no one dances either of those two extreme styles. Almost
> everyone
> dances somewhere in between. Some are more milonguero, some are more
> showy.
> For Bartek to condemn or negatively judge the far showy extreme is
> fine. Not
> many people on the list will disagree, I think. But where does he draw
> the
> line? We have no way to know. If someone, once a night, when the floor
> thins
> out, executes a step that is leaning towards showy as opposed to
> milonguearo, does that cross his line into condemnation?
> ...
> Jay in Portland
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:48:54 +0200
From: B?IkVjc2VkeSDBcm9uIiA?= <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
Dear Konstantin, Michael and the others,
Scroll down for REAL tango related stuff!
--- for all too polite Michael I will introduce myself:
My name is Aron ECSEDY. Born 21.06.1976. in Budapest, Hungary. I work
for the Hungarian Ministry of Education, but usually post from my
personal e-mail from aron (at) milonga.hu. I 'moderate' (I am sort of
host-shepherd) the (only) tango related mailing-list in Hungary. Also, I
am on the verge of launching a webpage which will function as a portal
for all tango in Hungary (not just dancing - will also have English
pages www.milonga.hu - online from next week).
I am a teacher of social dancing (BA) and I am a semi-professional
dancer (since I also have this job at the Ministry). I did international
ballroom (and latin) before tango. I also have training in american
modern dancing, jazz and some classical ballet. I have hobby-type
interest in gender science, evolutionary anthropology and psychology
(mainly interpersonal relations, NLP and evolutionary psychology).
I live in Budapest, Hungary. I earn about 1200 USD per month (fair
salary here) and I don't have kids. I do own a house (with mortgages to
pay for 35 years, bit more than ~1/3 of my salary) and a car (leased - 4
years to go). My address is: 78 Maria str. H-1161 Budapest, Hungary. You
can call me at +36 20 3296699. I also a member of the ATOF list.
---
For Konstantin:
Well, first of all thank you for implying that what I said was crap.
Second, thank you that you consider me equal to a person who is only an
artist because he says so.
I don't think that I deserved that, or I that you had slightest of
reasons (or right) to say that.
Third, I am no art critic. What I was saying was based on mere logic.
The logic of a person who understands emotional arguments but does not
consider them objective.
Your view (and some other pro-authentic guys' on the list) are
subjective. Your own view. Maybe you find a 100 others to support it,
but it does not authorize you to talk in absolutes.
-----Back to tango: What I really tried to imply, that - naturally -
there will be different categories WITHIN tango. However, you cannot say
that one has more right to exists or is "above" than the other. Tango
developed mostly like folk dances did (in the beginning). Later on it
became a fashion (social) dance (like mambo, cha-cha, the 52 types of
swing etc.) and today it converges to be a canonized dance (like ballet
or any other academic style - which is for PERFORMING!!!) retaining
social characteristics.
The social aspect and the performance aspect of tango (and any other
dance which started off (or was adopted) as a folk dance - like salsa)
always polarized people.
The psychological basis for people to grab on to something that is
"original" or "authentic" is the need for something tangible, something
solid in this dynamicly changing world. Practically the need is there
because they release their insecurities through this method: they
identify with something that represents something of 'real' value
(values that are not the products of their environment), something that
was there before most of the things in their daily lives (stability) and
something that makes them exotic (making them special - exoticism always
focuses on things that are foreign to the present environment either in
time, space (distance) or form). This is completely normal. Most of us
don't analyse ourselves that much for this to become concious in our
everyday actions, but it is still there.
To reflect on the post-modern crap thing: there are always bad art and
good art, as there are bad dancers and good dancers. It doesn't matter
what style they do, however. Or to put it this way: not the style makes
the dancer. Also, the elderly (or young) milongeuros in BsAs may dance
the old way, but that won't necessarily make them good dancers. Some
show dancers may be excellent social dancers (even if they use
unorthodox style). You see: those international ballroom champions are
usually not just good 'ballet' dancers. They can dance with a complete
beginner at make her (him!) feel that (s)he is SOOOO good at it. I can
give you names if you want. I know quite a few of them.
In my eyes, the "elderly from BsAs" are folk dancers. And which is more
important, most of them are just amateurs at it. They might be good
amateurs, but that doesn't make me talk about them as they would be the
Gods of Tango. There are professionals, who take tango seriously and are
quite good at it. Of course they will not teach the same things as the
old ones are dancing. It would be quite a shame if a professional
ballroom dancer is only as adept as my grandparents at the community
house. Naturally, because of the pressure from some people they had to
rename what they do to "tango nuevo" and after some time they really
started to walk their own way. But this doesn't necessarily mean that
their tango is any less. During the 40 years of communism in Hungary,
Hungarian folk dancing was heavily patronized by the state. A real folk
dancers (great-grandpa from a little village who wasn't taught by
dancers, but who learnt it among the others) are pretty far from the
level what a professional folk dancer (who knows about three dozen
different dances from different areas of Hungary, was trained in ballet
and all the aspects of the above folk dances by trainers who analysed
all its characteristics) can do.
In the teaching of dancing it is important to distinguish between 3
forms of folk-type dances: 1) true folk dances (you can see these only
at the place and time of origin, with all the ethnical background,
performed in the context it was developed for) 2) formally folk dances
(like folk dancing performed because of tourists) 3) derivative folk
dances (where folk dancing elements (or style) are used but the actual
choreography (or moves) is not original).
As to the quote from Tom Stermitz (by Carlos Rojas): true enough. But
here we are criticizing (tango nuevo) people who actually DID learn from
the elders, they ARE the part of the culture, but chose to develop the
dance to a higher level. (although: in a strict sense the culture you
are referring to does not exist anymore. Rather, it isn't even ONE
culture [referring to the evolution of tango: early 'slums' era, the
European tango-fever (and its influence), gardel-era, the
ballrooms/tango-party times (20s), the popular era (40s), the post-war
era (less dancing, different music, etc.)], also it isn't one nation
(Montevideo) and the population forming tango had fathers born in
different European countries...).
Cheers,
Aron
> >Of course, you can ask "then what makes tango to be
> tango?". Actually, >only one thing: people attribute
> certain concepts to what they believe >tango is. More
> simply: everything is tango, what people call tango.
>
> ...and so on.
>
> Aron gives us an amusing post-modernist treatment of
> definitions on the subject of tango. I reminds me of the
> equivalent post-modernistic discussions I've read elsewhere
> on what art is, where literally any and every crap is
> supposed to be considered art as long as the self-proclaimed
> artist says it is. Obviously, though, this is an entirely
> valid line of reasoning for at least its believers.
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:36:52 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: "Ecsedy Aron" <aron@MILONGA.HU>
>-----Back to tango: What I really tried to imply, that - naturally -
>there will be different categories WITHIN tango. However, you cannot say
>that one has more right to exists or is "above" than the other. Tango
>developed mostly like folk dances did (in the beginning). Later on it
>became a fashion (social) dance (like mambo, cha-cha, the 52 types of
>swing etc.) and today it converges to be a canonized dance (like ballet
>or any other academic style - which is for PERFORMING!!!) retaining
>social characteristics.
Thank you Ecsedy for your cogent and lucid post. I really like the way you
addressed all the points in the latest polemic about styles. I can only hope
that Mr. Figart II and others of his persuasion bothered to read the entire
post. It would have been extremely edificating without cirticizing or
condesceding. I could not have expressed it better.
Regards,
Manuel
BTW, in case anyone is interested, I dance almost exclusively in a close
embrace style although I can and do also dance in a way that allows more
intricate or interesting moves. Oh yeah, I can and do dance a pretty good
variety of steps without breaking the close embrace.
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:45:43 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
Tom Stermitz wrote:
>Sure, we are free to dance however we want, but we are learning the
>dance of another culture, and it is important to learn the "authentic",
>meaning "how THEY do it", before we go invent something else.
I have a somewhat different perspective. In approaching Argentine tango,
many people are likely to find that searching for authenticity as
prescribed by a group of distant people to be a pursuit that has little to
offer. I am more inclined to ask, what qualities would make dancing tango
a transcendent experience? As my own experience with the dance has grown,
I have found that tango developed as it has in Buenos Aires precisely
because many people found this form of the dance takes them to the inner
tango where they find a transcendent and sublime experience. The
authentic forms of the dance consist of moving to the music, engaging in
rhythmic play, developing a heart-to-heart connection with our partner,
and spontaneously creating as the dance floor and our skills permit.
I would agree that many who are attracted to the theatrical sizzle of
tango seem to miss the subtleties that are at the heart of true tango.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 17:03:08 +0200
From: Milonguero Viejo <milonguero@MILONGUERO.NET>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
I was out of the mailing list for quite a while now. But i see that there
are things who don't change, and one of this is the recurent discussions
on Tango-L about "authenticity" and "true" tango.
I almost share the same opinions with Aron. IMHO tango is like a language.
When we dance, we are "speacking" to our partner and listen to him through
our bodies. The same happens with the music we are communicating with the
musicians. So I think we can make some analogy with languages. As all the
languages change because people evolve and as other discussions an other
way to express themselve, I find it's normal the same thing's happen in
dancing. We do not make the same things and we don't like the same things
as our grand parents. I think we don't speak the same way to our boss than
to a friend or to the people we are in love with, so it's quite natural we
will not dance the same way with different people and on different music.
And the biggest factor for that is our mood, we don't danse the same way
if we are happy, sad, tired, quite, stressed an so on. So why not
completely change our style of dancing to better fit with all this
elements. And to really express who we are and how we are in this moment.
The last thing is who can say know how people where speaking at end of XIX
century what expressions they use, what was the common vocbulary, what
kind of gramatical mistake was common an so on... the same is right for
tango. No one can explain that. Even La Carmencita when she begun to dance
it was a long time after the "authentic" tango period. So I believe trying
to find how tango was in the early stage (Before 1930) is really
interesting (I'm involved in these kind of reasearch) but it's impossible.
Thank's for reading my opinon I'will apreciate discussing it if you want
and have some really nice tangos whatever the style you like and dance.
Dominique
PS: For those who are interested I'm a man. 30 years old. I like dancing
all styles. These last few monthes i tend to dance more (75% of time) in
the so called milonguero style.
--
You too! Get your FREE milonguera/milongero email account
at https://www.e-tango.info
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:54:52 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
Dominique:
>The last thing is who can say know how people where speaking at end of XIX
century what expressions they use, what was the common vocbulary, what kind
of gramatical mistake was common an so on... the same is right for tango. No
one can explain that. Even La Carmencita when she begun to dance it was a
long time after the "authentic" tango period. So I believe trying to find
how tango was in the early stage (Before 1930) is really interesting (I'm
involved in these kind of reasearch) but it's impossible.>
My answer:
There is an area of study called philology (the treatise of words). One copy
of the publication I have with me is called "Sobre Paremiologia Musical
Porten~a, Bailes e Instrumentos en el Habla Bonarense", by Daniel Devoto,
Instituto de Filologia Romanica, Buenos Aires 1951.
This publication serves as a reference to vocabulary, grammatical mistakes
common in those times here under discussion, terms. This publication quotes
extensively where and when the actual expressions were taken from.
I like tango history and when I realized I could not find the answers to all
of my questions I took up further reading on tango and quoted
bibliographies.
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:12:07 -0700
From: Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
Aron writes:
>For Konstantin:
>
>Well, first of all thank you for implying that what I said was crap.
Aron, my only implicit critique towards you was about your approach to tango
definitions. Yes, your definition, IF it were to gain popular acceptance,
might eventually result in some utter crap being called tango, just as it
happened in art where an analogous approach to definitions was almost
universally accepted. Notice that the word 'crap' denotes something in the
aftermath of applying such a post-modern approach to definitions, not the act
of stating what that approach might be.
>Second, thank you that you consider me equal to a person who is only an
>artist because he says so.
In my art analogy, the self-proclaimed artist I referred to is merely a user
of the thus-accepted approach to definitions and there is no reason why s/he
should be conflated or mistaken with that other person (that would be the
analogous person to you) who advocated or helped establish the said
approach to definitions.
>I don't think that I deserved that, or I that you had slightest of
>reasons (or right) to say that.
Perhaps this and the previous sentence is a strawman argument since you
attribute to me something I did not communicate and then proceed to demolish
it to prove that I was wrong in communicating it. You are quite right that,
HAD I communicated this, you would not have deserved it. And I haven't. I do
not know you at all and I barely know just a very small facet of your ideas
about a very specific subject. Surely I can't make any informed comment about
your person.
>Third, I am no art critic. What I was saying was based on mere logic.
>The logic of a person who understands emotional arguments but does not
>consider them objective.
>Your view (and some other pro-authentic guys' on the list) are
>subjective. Your own view.
Again, perhaps you could re-read my words regarding your approach to tango
definitions. You could notice that they are general and independent of new
tango or supporting the substance of true tango. You would also see that
this was only one out of 5 paragraphs, and that I lastly urged people to
concentrate on the substance of the charges by Bartek (in order to have a
constructive discussion). Also, perhaps you have not seen that my other email
in this discussion.
I do not know enough about new tango to have an informed opinion on the
balance of its strengths and weaknesses. You could see that I talked only in
very general terms about it, and the more categorical comments or statements
were related to tango music where I feel that I have much more knowledge. So,
to put it coarsely, I am 'pro-authentic' in regards to tango argentino music
especially since in my view the dance follows and depends on the music and is
not an independent entity. I am neutral in regards to new tango dance but that
does not preclude me from making general comments that apply to the way we can
frame the discussion or the approach to definitions.
>Maybe you find a 100 others to support it,
>but it does not authorize you to talk in absolutes.
I am sorry, I do not know what this means. See above.
I will try to reply to other parts of your post and to other comments in a
separate email.
Best regards,
Konstantin
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 15:12:47 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
Ecsedy Aron wrote:
>-----Back to tango: What I really tried to imply, that - naturally -
there will be different categories WITHIN tango. However, you cannot say
that one has more right to exists or is "above" than the other.<
My 2 cents:
A more general consensus among tango historians is that there was a
"template" for tango music and dance. This template was called "criollo"
style -- one kind of music which was danced with cortes and quebradas.
Subsequently, tango was identified as the dance of the corte and quebrada,
but by this time it was a prohibited dance by the upper classes in Buenos
Aires, meaning it was banned in the Salons and family homes. The present
tango choreography has steps from the criollo style. For example, pasos
paseos, pasos cruzados, pasos serenos, molinetes, cambio de pie, garabito,
ochos, doble corte, corriditas, pasos laterals, etc.
The term "criollo" meant anything regarding nationalistic themes and values
or people who promoted them.
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:15:25 +0200
From: B?IkVjc2VkeSDBcm9uIiA?= <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
Dear Konstantin,
First of all: regarding "crap" and the non-artist concept: we apparently
misunderstood each other. So lets leave it at that.
About subjectivity: I meant that you are basing your concepts on
information which are already speculations. Any information that
characterizes the dance comes from experience. Since no-one (alive)
experienced tango in the era of it's birth and we do not have any visual
recordings or reliable written material it is not possible for anyone to
make definitive statements about tango. This probably won't change
(unless someone finds a movie from a milonga in 1900... Which is
theoretically possible, but very unlikely.) Of course this does not
deprive you (or others) from the right to have your (their) own opinion.
But it remains that: an opinion. And an opinion is not absolute.
Please note, that I do not say whether nuevo and 'authentic' tango is
better or not better. I merely state, that arguments pro or contra based
on authenticity will inherently fail because of the lacking tangible
facts. There will always be people who interpret the available facts and
concepts differently than others, thus ending up with a different (maybe
contrary) result. Everything else is based on this single fact: no-one
knows what "real" tango looked like. This implies if no-one knows then
there is no reference point in their 'evolution' (I hope we don't argue
that dancers do evolve during their lifetimes, which implies change) in
tango: they don't know what to keep (what's 'real') and what is phoney
(an invention). If we accept that this is the case for quite a while
now. Those elderly milongeuros we are talking about are from the 3rd
generation of tango dancers. According to a few articles mainly from the
20s, even around that period they had idea of the exact look of tango
before the century.
(we have these few figures and concepts that were supposed to be a part
of that style - but we do not know that which set of figures were danced
in which area (very important differences even in the 30s!), we don't
know if the those figures/concepts MEANT the same things as we know them
now, or they were executed very differently (there are million ways to
execute figures even now), etc.)
More generally: the early history of tango is big mess. It is most
likely - considering the sources available - that tango was never a
single concept. There were profound differences the way it was danced by
area in the early times, which was dilluted by intense immigration
(cultural mixing), by the exporting to Europe and reimporting it (the
entire tango liso way of dancing is the result of that - not to mention
several "noble" concepts that were imported with it (denying the 'low'
birth of tango)), the popularization of tango (also dilluting it with
Gardel's style (tango cancion), the change in musical style etc.), the
mass-culture phenomenon of the 40s (tango became the evening programme,
like going into the cinema today for many people), than the strong
political context in the post-war period, the theatricalization of tango
(both by the few remaining pros and by the orchestras), the Piazzolla
effect (mixing tango with other styles effecting (stage) dancing as
well), then the revival in the 80s, where theater lead the way, and
for-export commercialization followed.
Now Argentina sells exoticism. And since the past is not known,
Argentines may say anything - you can't prove nor deny. After that it is
only the question of good demagogy (and marketing) to make one style
more "real" than the other in the head of people.
I also recommend the book: Tango and the Political Economy of Passion by
Marta E. Savigliano .
IMHO: I consider it a vain attempt to find the Platonic _idea_ (the
latin word here: meaning the theoretic arch-definition) of tango,
because what you find is only a Rio Platonic idea...that was twisted by
many urban legends, misconcepts, misunderstandings, partial truths,
commercial interests, egos etc...
Cheers,
Aron
> >Well, first of all thank you for implying that what I said
> was crap.
>
> Aron, my only implicit critique towards you was about your
> approach to tango definitions. Yes, your definition, IF it
> were to gain popular acceptance, might eventually result in
> some utter crap being called tango, just as it happened in
> >Second, thank you that you consider me equal to a person
> who is only an >artist because he says so.
>
> In my art analogy, the self-proclaimed artist I referred to
> is merely a user of the thus-accepted approach to
> definitions and there is no reason why s/he should be
> conflated or mistaken with that other person (that would be
> the analogous person to you) who advocated or helped
> establish the said approach to definitions.
> >I don't think that I deserved that, or I that you had
> slightest of >reasons (or right) to say that.
>
>
> was wrong in communicating it. You are quite right that, HAD
> I communicated this, you would not have deserved it. And I
> >Third, I am no art critic. What I was saying was based on
> mere logic.
> >The logic of a person who understands emotional arguments
> but does not >consider them objective.
> >Your view (and some other pro-authentic guys' on the list)
> are >subjective. Your own view.
> Again, perhaps you could re-read my words regarding your
> approach to tango definitions. You could notice that they
> >Maybe you find a 100 others to support it, >but it does
> not authorize you to talk in absolutes.
>
> I am sorry, I do not know what this means. See above.
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:04:51 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: FW: [TANGO-L] True tango and nuevo tango
Ecsedy Áron wrote:
>About subjectivity: I meant that you are basing your concepts on
information which are already speculations. Any information that
characterizes the dance comes from experience. Since no-one (alive)
experienced tango in the era of it's birth and we do not have any visual
recordings or reliable written material it is not possible for anyone to
make definitive statements about tango. This probably won't change
(unless someone finds a movie from a milonga in 1900... Which is
theoretically possible, but very unlikely.) Of course this does not
deprive you (or others) from the right to have your (their) own opinion.
But it remains that: an opinion. And an opinion is not absolute.<
My 2 cents:
The written records do not always show the dance itself, but how observers
viewed it. Depending on obervers' bias i.e., social background, etc. their
views on the dance would have varied. However, the newspapers and magazines
of those times offered a more objective view of the dance.
Depending on the time and place you are referring to:
There are explicit descriptions in Vicente Rossi's book "Cosas de Negros"
primarily of how black dancers danced Milonga before the Academia San Felipe
in Montevideo closed in 1890. Rossi was a protagonist of the times and
circumstances, which gave birth to the Milonga, and subsequently to the
Tango in Buenos Aires. One part of his book on the dance choreography of the
Montevideo blacks he describes a tango figure similar to what I have learned
as "The Needle Point". The book is written in a particular form of Spanish,
which Rossi tried to promote. He was a "criollo" promoting nationalistic
themes and values.
Nicanor Lima another "criollo" wrote a Tango salon dance manual (1916?) on
the tango dance choreography that shares many common points with the way
tango salon is danced nowadays. Lima very likely was porten~o for the way he
spoke in great favor of promoting Tango and chastising the Parisien tango as
a waterwash version of the Argentinian one. His dance manual does not offer
set figures but stresses step combinations and possibilities of movement.
For example, he describes 14 different ways of performing "media lunas".
The magazine Caras y Caretas fro February 7, 1903 publishes an artícle with
pictures, signed by the "Sargento Pita" (José S. Alvarez o "Fray Mocho").
These photos have men dancing tango "criollo" in tango postures that are
reminiscent of the present tango choreography. One picture showed a walking
step called "refiloneo", which I have not seen used anymore.
Best regards,
Bruno
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:39:58 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: True tango and nuevo tango
I have many sympathies for the view point that Aron expressed:
>[N]o-one knows what "real" tango looked like. ...
>[T]he early history of tango is big mess. It is most likely --
>considering the sources available -- that tango was never a
>single concept. There were profound differences the way it was
>danced by area in the early times, which was dilluted by intense
>immigration (cultural mixing), by the exporting to Europe and
>reimporting it (the entire tango liso way of dancing is the result
>of that -- not to mention several "noble" concepts that were
>imported with it (denying the 'low' birth of tango)), the popularization
>of tango
Although I would not purport to be able to discern the true historical
tango, a little bit of thinking can give us a little bit of insight into
what tango might have been like in earlier periods. In fact, linguists
have constructed theoretical historical languages by examining modern
languages. We can do the same with tango. We can make an educated guess
that Argentine tango music and dance went together, and we do have
recorded music. (Of course, the recordings may not match what was played
live performances.) We also have written reports about the rhythmic
qualities of early forms of the dance, such as canyengue and tango liso,
and the social implications of dancing in one manner or another. We also
have entertainment movies made in the 1940s that offer histories of tango
dancing. Beyond that we need to recognize that circumstances affect a
dance, i.e., dancing in crowded venues creates a pressure to dance in a
close embrace and use movements that work well in the flow of the line of
dance.
On the other hand, I do not think it is at all possible to draw a line
separating true tango from nuevo tango. Nuevo tango is an evolution.
Whether it is a successful evolution only time can tell us. We can come
up with a partial forecast by asking: Does the nuevo tango offer a
transcendent experience to the dancers and are they willing to pay to keep
the dance space necessary to dance the form?
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
