186 Truth,justice, and the american way
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:37:15 +0000
From: Nauj Ozneirad <jozneirad@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Truth,justice, and the american way
I experienced something in the past fortnight that causes me both
consternation and perplex ion. First, let me explain that my perspective is
different than many of yours. I am a flight attendant for an international
airline. I enjoy tango in many interesting venues, and experience many
different tango communities. I am very conscious of issues of accuracy,
acceptance, and prejudice. My father and uncle escaped to "America" after
witnessing first hand the slaughter at Gallipolis. They went to the closest
seaport and asked for the first ship leaving for America. It was not until
they arrived in Havana that they understood "America" was not synonymous
with New York. There was another whole America unknown to them: Latin
America. Of course, things were o.k. for them, and my mother, me, and my
sisters, until the 50's. Another intolerant regime forced a move for my
mother, siblings, and me. We finally arrived in "the real America" as my
uncle called it. The price we paid was dear: my father was required to
remain behind to assist the new government in a technological capacity. He
never made it out.
Relative to tango, the level of animosity and malicious self-obsession in
the United States is profound! Only in Portland and Denver have I witnessed
the open embracing (no pun) of varied styles of tango by dancers of
differing schools. In almost every other community, there is an hostility
that is palpable. It seems mostly promulgated by the open style dancers
on the apilado dancers. I can t help but feel that it is a reflection of
the look at me focus of salon dancing vis-`-vis the personal reflection
of the apilado style. I see differences in stylistic preference around the
world (have you ever tried to dance in Finland?) but not the abject
intolerance I see here. This was highlighted for me when I attended a
milonga at the end of August hosted by a teaching couple that has
perpetuated divisiveness within their community with respect to other
teaching schools in that city. Granted, they may have had their reasons
initially. (Many people are aware of the reasons, justified apparently, for
the initial split with the founding teacher for the community.) But multiple
wrongs do not a right male. This teaching couple have a beautiful young
assistant who is a technically proficient but very wooden, soul-less dancer.
The sort that dances the " look at me, give me approval" tango we often
see. At this milonga, however, there was another beautiful young dancer who
not only possessed exemplary technique, but also imbued her dance with
passion, style, and finesse lacking in the assistant teachers "performance".
A photographer from the local paper was present at the milonga. The
photographer, another female, was overwhelmed with the intensity of this
second woman and her dance. The photographer snapped off shot after shot of
this dancer, until finally the organizers came over to the dancer and asked
her to leave the dance floor because the photographer was paying far too
much attention to her instead of to them! I don't think they realized
anyone was within earshot of this conversation. Ordinarily, this would not
have meant that much to me. However, the following Thursday I was on a
brief layover for a connecting flight in this same city. The local
newspaper had an interesting story about tango and its emergence in the
city. The wife of this selfsame teaching duo was quoted--quoted, mind
you--as saying that she taught both the open and close-embrace styles of
tango. In fact, I have in the past taken one or two of the classes offered
by this duo. Not only do they NOT teach apilado, in their classes they go
out of their way to denigrate both the style and those who dance it. For
that reason, I chose not to attend any more of their practicas, even though
I dance both styles. I also note that they are seldom at any of the public
milonga venues in this city, preferring to host private milongas or dance at
their home only. Yet, in spite of that, it is the apilado community that is
growing and adding members in the community. My conclusion is that the
malicious intent to deceive readers is intended to promote a specific set of
teachers for financial gain rather than promote the dance overall, with its
many forms and stylistic approaches.
In BsAs, in days past, dancer's styles often denoted the neighborhoods in
which they lived and studied. When they went to another neighborhood, they
were identified as an "outsider" by their style of dance. But you don't see
this so much anymore. There is room for everybody who can dance and who has
a respect for the etiquette of the milonga. If snowboarders and skiers can
co-exist on a slope, certainly we can dance together. And if your classes
are dwindling or you have lost "market-share" as an instructor, perhaps
self-realization should replace self-aggrandizement. The dance is about the
embrace: embrace the dance as a whole, as well as one another.
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:01:28 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
Nauj Ozneirad writes:
> Relative to tango, the level of animosity and malicious self-obsession in
> the United States is profound! Only in Portland and Denver have I witnessed
> the open embracing (no pun) of varied styles of tango by dancers of
> differing schools. In almost every other community, there is an hostility
> that is palpable. It seems mostly promulgated by the open style dancers
> on the apilado dancers.
Curious. I have been reading this mailing list for several years now,
and I've yet to see any open dancers criticizing apilado. On the other hand,
I've several times seen comments to the effect that "the only real tango is
close embrace," and that "without this close, intimate connection, you
don't really understand tango," and on and on.
So it seems to this observer, anyway, that most of the hostility (if
any) seems to be coming in the opposite direction than that which you
describe.
> I can't help but feel that it is a reflection of the look at me focus of
> salon dancing vis-`-vis the personal reflection of the apilado style.
That's nonsense. Sure, there are always going to be people out there
in the dance world who are in a look-at-me mindset, but you cannot assume
the reason someone dances salon is for that purpose.
Salon dance movement has beautiful aethetics, and feels good as
well. It can almost feel like flying at times. It has its own airy
intimacy. It is not necessarily just some egotistical look-at-me ploy.
How cynical.
When the floor is crowded, I resent people doing open tango figures
as much as the next guy, perhaps even more so. But when the floor is
sparse, there is no reason whatsoever to frown upon this beautiful style
of tango.
[ three paragraphs of gripe against a particular teacher omitted ]
Sounds to me like you've generalized what is actually a particular
gripe against one intolerant teaching couple.
Huck
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:17:33 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
Nauj Ozneirad wrote:
>In almost every other community, there is an hostility
>that is palpable. It seems mostly promulgated by the
>open style dancers on the apilado dancers.
Huck Kennedy replied:
>I have been reading this mailing list for several years now,
>and I've yet to see any open dancers criticizing apilado.
From my observations (which are not limited to this list), the denigration
of other styles is a fairly widespread phenomenon, and the criticism is not
limited to open style vs. apilado. In my opinion, most styles have a claim
to authenticity, although some styles, such as fantasia, may not be
appropriate for social dancing.
In North America, I think some of the hostility may have been fanned by the
development and use of a style that is hybrid of social salon and fantasia.
This hybrid style has arisen from the influence of tango shows and a round
of teachers drawn from the shows. The development of this hybrid style for
social dancing has created a bit of a schism because it shifts the emphasis
away from one-on-one communication that is emphasized in social dancing
toward dancing for appearances. Both can be fun, but they are very
different activities, and are likely to attract very different people.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:42:50 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
Friends,
Huck Kennedy wrote:
> Salon dance movement has beautiful aethetics, and feels good as
> well. It can almost feel like flying at times. It has its own airy
> intimacy. It is not necessarily just some egotistical look-at-me ploy.
I chalk one up for Huck. Adding my own thoughts:
We've all heard that there are lumpers and splitters in life. In tango,
is Apilado tango the same dance or is it different from (I don't agree
with the term but that's another problem) open-embrace "Salon" tango?
To the student who is learning technique, the differences can be
striking. The two are different to lead and particularly different to
follow. That's alot of difference. ...and a combined mastery of both
can be confusing and take extra effort. Yet, the music and it's
emotions are the same. The possibilities in one style enhance our
enjoyment of the other style. Doesn't that make it "all one dance"?
Regarding these styles, I suspect that a dancer's perception of the
differences parallel their mastery of the unique fundamentals. If you
can shift frames and techniques easily and dance well either way, the
differences might seem like a continum, with fun to be found within and
between the styles. [...wish I was there!] But if one or the other
style is foreign or at all intimidating, they could seem like different
dances altogether. Choice is wonderful. Are the style critics' choices
based on good ability in *both* styles? I wonder this because I haven't
yet found a way that I *don't* enjoy moving with connection to tango music!
Regards,
Frank - Mpls.
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:00:24 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
Steve de Tejas writes:
> In North America, I think some of the hostility may have been fanned by the
> development and use of a style that is hybrid of social salon and fantasia.
> This hybrid style has arisen from the influence of tango shows and a round
> of teachers drawn from the shows.
Yes.
> The development of this hybrid style for social dancing has created a bit of
> a schism because it shifts the emphasis away from one-on-one communication
> that is emphasized in social dancing toward dancing for appearances.
I agree that appearance increases in importance with this dancing, but
I disagree that there is a corresponding drop in one-on-one communication.
To lead and follow the more complicated open figures requires *more*
one-on-one communication than close embrace, not less (unless you're just
trying to do pre-arranged choreography on a social dance floor, which is not
what I'm talking about).
> Both can be fun, but they are very different activities, and are likely
> to attract very different people.
Well then I and many of my friends must be schizophrenic, since we are
attracted to both styles! :-)
I really think it's unfair that so many people seem to think complicated
open figures are only for appearance and the only way to "communicate" and
"feel the music" is in close embrace. I personally tend to feel the music
more in an embrace that is allowed to go back and forth between open and
closed, because there are so many more options available with which to express
oneself than in a strictly closed embrace. The vocabulary is much richer.
On the other hand, I also tend to get very annoyed at people who attempt
to do complicated open figures on a crowded dance floor (more often than not,
with no relation to the music being played), and can understand why people would
build up a resentment towards this type of dancing since, unfortunately, so many
people who dance it are inconsiderate of other people and oblivious of their
surroundings, for the reasons you allude to above (too many fancy teachers
teaching fancy figures without imparting a clue as to when such moves are
socially appropriate).
Huck
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 03:38:26 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
Huck wrote:
> On the other hand, I also tend to get very annoyed at people who
attempt
> to do complicated open figures on a crowded dance floor (more often than
not,
> with no relation to the music being played), and can understand why people
would
> build up a resentment towards this type of dancing since, unfortunately,
so many
> people who dance it are inconsiderate of other people and oblivious of
their
> surroundings, for the reasons you allude to above (too many fancy teachers
> teaching fancy figures without imparting a clue as to when such moves are
> socially appropriate).
>
Good points. There is one more thing to add. It is not just a question of
knowing when such moves are appropriate, it is also question of whether the
dancer has understood that every "move"/ figure/ combinacion can be broken
down into smaller and smaller parts, and there are different ways to enter
and exit a figure. With this knowledge, navigation becomes possible, and
most of these figures can quickly be altered or interrupted and changed into
something else, when the approaching of other couples makes it necessary.
Naturally it may be easier and appeals to the more mechnanical mind, and the
teacher who likes to teach simple memorisation, to learn/ teach a figure
exactly as it was shown/ he shows it, and repeat it over and over again in
this way, but this is not really, what tango is about.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:34:08 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
Frank,
I like what you said here. I am tired of all this comparing of styles.
Apilado does it all for me and that is how I dance best. I love tango
and all it's expressions. I think the best things will happen when
everyone quits arguing and just start sharing the dance floors. When we
all dance together and enjoy our differences and learn to share the
floor, the way is open for real evolution of tango. There has been so
much intellectual work to try to evolve the dance but the best evolution
will happen on the dance floors without any former planning.
Let's all shut up and dance. Learn to share the floor and the space
with each other and see what happens. I think it will be real magic.
Robert
"Frank G. Williams" wrote:
> Regarding these styles, I suspect that a dancer's perception of the
> differences parallel their mastery of the unique fundamentals. If you
> can shift frames and techniques easily and dance well either way, the
> differences might seem like a continum, with fun to be found within and
> between the styles. [...wish I was there!] But if one or the other
> style is foreign or at all intimidating, they could seem like different
> dances altogether. Choice is wonderful. Are the style critics' choices
> based on good ability in *both* styles? I wonder this because I haven't
> yet found a way that I *don't* enjoy moving with connection to tango music!
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:57:36 +1000
From: David Brewer <spiraldb@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
Greetings all.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
> Steve de Tejas writes:
<snip>
> > Both can be fun, but they are very different activities, and are
likely
> > to attract very different people.
>
> Well then I and many of my friends must be schizophrenic, since
we are
> attracted to both styles! :-)
Could it be that those who are attracted to _just one_ style are very
different people from those attracted to another style, and that both
people are more likely to be antagonistic to practitioners of other
styles? There seems to be no argument among people who appreciate all
styles, and they appear to be more considerate of others in various
situations; much less likely to practise big open figures on a crowded
floor, for example.
Cheers,
David Brewer
Hobart, Australia
Keep on Dancing
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:42:01 -0700
From: Larry Duke <auto_d20@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
The first and most obvious form of oppression is moral
oppression. It is most obvious in the propaganda from
the "close-embracers" - the so-called "true"
tangueros.
This stems, in part, from a throwback to the medieval
age, when every kingdom had an official religion,
generally that of the king - and a many
"close-embracers", both male and female, want to make
America's official religion "close-embrace" tango and
thrust its impossible and unnatural moral codes upon
every tango dancer. The morality, benevolence,
passivity, and other properties of that or any other
religion is not the point of this argument - the point
is that any religion, regardless of its properties,
promises, and propaganda, has no place in a free dance
world.
There is history: many of the first colonists came
here seeking religious freedom when the European
states became heavy-handed in enforcing their own
interpretations of religious texts, which was
intolerable enough to make people flee to an untamed
wilderness, where they founded a society based on
freedom of ideology.
But it's not just hard-core "close-embracers" who are
on the rampage to put chains on our ganchos and boleos
- there are many people out to ban things simply
because they don't like them. Surprisingly, most of
this oppression comes from the left - and, ironically
enough, from people who call themselves "rights"
activists. The violation of freedom of speech is
widespread - think about what you're reading right
now, my very words. There are certain words I can't
post on this list because of censorship.
Words are only the first step in moral oppression -
the next step up is ideas.
It may seem odd to defend the people who want to show
off on a dance floor, and the sort of "perves" who
regularly gancho and boleo without a "heart-to-heart"
connection, but if there's going to be freedom, there
has to be freedom for everyone. These are not the
worst people I've taken up for, because "liberty and
justice for all" means Liberty and Justice for all -
not just for the people I agree with. It applies to
even my worst enemies, to the people I despise most,
because freedom is not a privilege to be dispensed at
will, it is a right to be held by all.
El Duke.
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:09:05 +0000
From: id ilras <idilras@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
Hello Frank,
You write:
>Choice is wonderful. Are the style critics' choices
>based on good ability in *both* styles?
Such a good question! I wonder what the general consensus would be If all
the tango dancers replied?
>I wonder this because I haven't
>yet found a way that I *don't* enjoy moving with connection to tango
> >music!
It sounds as if you (as well as Huck Kennedy) have hit the mark. It is all
about the enjoyment of the dance. It makes sense that one can enjoy more
dances if one knows how to dance to different styles of tango music,
different sets of circumstances on the dance floor and more importantly,
different partners. I know that I love an intimate close embrace tango, but
I also love to dance an elegant salon style tango or if the floor is open,
Pugliese just begs for big beautiful figures.
regards
>
>Regards,
>
>Frank - Mpls.
illegitimata non carborundum
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 04:01:34 +0000
From: id ilras <idilras@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
>From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
>I am tired of all this comparing of styles.
......snip.........
>I love tango
>and all it's expressions. I think the best things will happen when
>everyone quits arguing and just start sharing the dance floors. When we
>all dance together and enjoy our differences and learn to share the
>floor, the way is open for real evolution of tango.
Robert, you've said it all. For me a variety of styles are the way to go.
They all have their place I prefer a club style at milongas but I can do it
all. I'm glad to see some sanity in this list, I thought for a while there
that in some places only one style is welcome. That is definitely no good.
If I don't feel like dancing apilado I don't want to be critized as being
soulless or not connected to my partner. If folks just quit worrying so much
about everyone else's dancing and just mind their own business, things would
be much better for all.
>There has been so
>much intellectual work to try to evolve the dance but the best evolution
>will happen on the dance floors without any former planning.
Yeah, and enough talking about about feelings, connections, and all this BS.
It is so arrogant to try to tell someone that their dancing is not good
enough because they do it a little differently. Lets just allow people to
enjoy their tango. All the best masters that I've ever spoken with have told
me that tango must be made one's own. No one person or group owns the tango
and nobody should try to claim it either. As long as it's inside of ones
being and respects the floor, it's tango.
>Let's all shut up and dance. Learn to share the floor and the space
>with each other and see what happens. I think it will be real magic.
>
I second this motion!
illegitimata non carborundum
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 17:36:27 -0400
From: Silvia Borelli <silvia.borelli@OPERAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
>===== Original Message From Nauj Ozneirad <jozneirad@HOTMAIL.COM> =====
>
>The dance is about the
>embrace: embrace the dance as a whole, as well as one another.
>
>
Dear Juan:
Dogmatism maintains that truth is personally unattainable due to our own
inferior ability to perceive and understand reality. Yet the proponents of
"close-embrace" dogma claim somehow that Susana Miller and a few guys a few
years ago had eye-opening revelations, which are used as a basis for several
denominations of "close-embracetianity" today, including the Denver chapter.
It is evident religion is often utilized to tell followers that some
people are more attune to truth and virtue than others, which is absolutely
ridiculous.
Without completely knocking "close-embrace" religion, the most important
lesson that must be conveyed is the ability to separate fiction from
non-fiction. Allowing this list readers to believe that Miller's stories about
"true" milonguero style are somehow factual runs in opposition to the physical
world of tango in Buenos Aires and the rest of the world they encounter on a
daily basis and therefore clutters their minds with confusion.
Conscious creation on an individual level can be a difficult and soul
searching experience.
Discern the signs of the times and speak truth.
To me, learning and dancing the Tango is an opportunity to create and discover
a new language of sound, a language of the heart, "a new kind of poetry, the
poetry of the dancing bee, that tells us where the honey is."
Silvia.
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 17:17:47 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Truth,justice, and the american way
Silvia Borelli wrote:
>>To me, learning and dancing the Tango is an opportunity to create and
discover a new language of sound, a language of the heart, "a new kind of
poetry, the poetry of the dancing bee, that tells us where the honey is."<<
If we look upon tango as a language it seems to make little sense to
confine onself to any particular style. Doing so limits our vocabulary. I
personally dance a hodge-podge of styles that are centered on the old
social salon style (that has been previously described on Tango-L as
disappearing), and my embrace and selection of steps depends on my partner,
the music, and floor conditions.
Nonetheless, there may be reasons to limit our usage of a language on
particular occasions--perhaps to improve our command over a particular
subset of the language or to converse with others who do not know as much
of the language. We may also choose to refrain from using language
reckelessly--where recklessness is determined by the prevailing conditions.
Any style of tango can be danced recklessly. As has been pointed out to
me, there are milonguero-style dancers who lower their heads and plow ahead
oblivious of who might be in their path, but it seems to me that
exhibition-style figures are more likely to create problems on a social
dance floor--precisely because they are created with an eye toward beauty
rather than use of limited space. My concern is that some of those who
teach exhibtion-style figures do so without much regard as to how average
execution of those figures is likely to affect others on a social dance
floor.
Does this make me a "dogmatic religous" advocate of one-style over another?
I do not think so.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:42:38 -0700
From: Larry Duke <auto_d20@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Was: Truth,justice, and the american way. Now: Moral Oppression
The first and most obvious form of oppression is moral
oppression. It is most obvious in the propaganda from
the "close-embracers" - the so-called "true"
tangueros, and the Republican and Democrat parties.
This stems, in part, from a throwback to the medieval
age, when every kingdom had an official religion,
generally that of the king - and a many
"close-embracers", both male and female, want to make
America's official religion "close-embrace" tango and
thrust its impossible and unnatural moral codes upon
every tango dancer. The morality, benevolence,
passivity, and other properties of that or any other
religion is not the point of this argument - the point
is that any religion, regardless of its properties,
promises, and propaganda, has no place in a free dance
world.
There is history: many of the first colonists came
here seeking religious freedom when the European
states became heavy-handed in enforcing their own
interpretations of religious texts, which was
intolerable enough to make people flee to an untamed
wilderness, where they founded a society based on
freedom of ideology.
But it's not just hard-core "close-embracers" who are
on the rampage to put chains on our ganchos and boleos
- there are many people out to ban things simply
because they don't like them. Surprisingly, most of
this oppression comes from the left - and, ironically
enough, from people who call themselves "rights"
activists. The violation of freedom of speech is
widespread - think about what you're reading right
now, my very words. There are certain words I can't
post on this list because of censorship.
Words are only the first step in moral oppression -
the next step up is ideas.
It may seem odd to defend the people who want to show
off on a dance floor, murderous religious extremists,
flag-burners, and the sort of "perves" who regularly
gancho and boleo without a "heart-to-heart"
connection, but if there's going to be freedom, there
has to be freedom for everyone. These are not the
worst people I've taken up for, because "liberty and
justice for all" means Liberty and Justice for all -
not just for the people I agree with. It applies to
even my worst enemies, to the people I despise most,
because freedom is not a privilege to be dispensed at
will, it is a right to be held by all.
El Duke.
