2929 V frame
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:27:26 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: V frame
Michael wrote:
>Our alignment (buttons-to-buttons or sternum-to-sternum) is gone... With
>the alignment gone, I feel I can communicate with only one side of the
>woman's chest.
I have made a mistake of focusing on steps while the most important part
lost in V frame was connection of course. Hence less than satisfying
experience. As a result of incomplete connection I couldn't lead those
smaller steps.
Thank you Michael, you dug deeper.
I hope with my _personal_ experience I have not offended those people who
think that dancing in V-frame is the only way to dance tango. When I have
started to learn tango I started in open embrace. It took me three months to
discover close embrace. I have not been tempted to go back to open embrace
ever since (including the semi open V-frame incarnation).
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
>Reply-To: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V embrace]
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:14:00 -0400
>
>I can't stand dancing in "V" embrace. Our alignment (buttons-to-buttons or
>sternum-to-sternum) is gone. My partner and I have to dance like door and
>wall hinges. A pin slides through the hinges to keep the door attached to
>the hinge on the wall so that the door can swing (and possibly tango.)
>There is an imaginary pin between my partner's chest and mine to keep us
>together.
>
>I've danced in V embrace, mostly because of poor frame on my part. If my
>left arm extends to far forward, I push the woman to her left. Conversely,
>if the woman presses hard with her right arm, she pushes herself away from
>me into a V. With the alignment gone, I feel I can communicate with only
>one side of the woman's chest.
>
>Michael
>Washington, DC
>
>
> > Oleh says " I personally have danced with a follower in V embrace only
>once > and found > experience dissatisfying: even though there were no
>major problems with > lead-follow communication some of the smaller check
>steps where virtually > impossible to lead.
>
>
>
>--
>I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango!!
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:15:42 -0700
From: Julian Centella <tangotiger888@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: V frame
"I've danced in V embrace, mostly because of poor frame on my part. If my
left arm extends to far forward, I push the woman to her left. Conversely,
if the woman presses hard with her right arm, she pushes herself away from
me into a V. With the alignment gone, I feel I can communicate with only
one side of the woman's chest.
Michael
Washington, DC"
This above paragraph is very descriptive. It is written by somebody who does not know how to dance in "V frame".
It is perfectly normal to dance in any way you wish, with any frame you wish to use, to any music that you wish to hear.
Having said that you should know that "V frame" is not a trend, It is the frame used by most people in Argentina and all over the world. It is the frame used by all the great tango dancers that ever existed, Todaro, El Cachafaz, Virulazo, Lampazo, and all the great dancers of our time, Osvaldo and Miguel Zotto, Carlos Copes, Nito and Elba, Diego and Carolina, Guillermo , Misse, Carlos Copello, Alicia, Cecilia, Guillermina, Jorge Firpo, etc, etc, you name it. Very few pwople dance nipple to nipple.
You should understand once and for ever that "Milonguero Style" is taugh only by very few instructors as an adaptation to dancing in the crowded salons of Buenos Aires.
It is easier to learn and to teach, this last characteristic makes this style the one taught by most foreign tango instructors while the Argentine ones teach Salon, with V frame open and close embrace.
When you can only dance one style, you should refrain from critizising the ones that you obviously do not know . So if I only dance merengue it is rational to think that I will find dancing cha-cha-cha difficult and unbearable.
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:27:51 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: V frame.
"I think we should try to be as parallel as possible
with our partners, the more chest to chest contact, the better and easier
the connection and communication of the lead (at least in my experience).
Whenever I follow, I find difficult and uncomfortable to dance with leaders
that only give me the ride side of their chest."
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
The above is true only if you wish to dance "MIlonguero Style" as taught by
a few instructors.
Most people dance in V frame, they learn to dance that way, they feel
totally comfortable with it.
The frame is not only limited to the chest, it is composed by the whole body
including the arms and the hands.
This affords you a great connection with your partner and the potential
skill to do all the steps and moves of the rich tango choreography.
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:19:46 -0400
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: V frame.
A follower responds:
I have danced with leaders who do both, and don't find one better than
the other. What is a problem is that when a leader allows "drift" by
the follower because his left arm is not solidly communicating to her
where he wants her. Then she's confused, and tries to make her own
adjustments.
Some leaders put a follower far to their right because of their
anatomy (large stomachs!)
I prefer to be more in front, though.
Lois, Mpls
> "I think we should try to be as parallel as possible
> with our partners, the more chest to chest contact, the better and
easier
> the connection and communication of the lead (at least in my
experience).
>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:20:52 -0400
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: V frame.
I don't understand this "parallel frame" that people are talking about. From the way it is being described on this list, it seems that you want the woman directly in front of you. Impossible. In any partner dance, the woman has to be slightly to the right of the man's chest, not directly center, in order to not hit legs, knees, feet, etc. Especially since very few leaders I find actually use contrabody movement in their walk, but are so stiff up top that it's like dancing with a board. The position and degree of a "V shape" normally takes place depending on the size, frame and height of my partners. If he is a little short, or same height as me, then it's very difficult to stay parallel, or our heads will bump, and prefer to take more of a "V-shape". But if he's tall enough that I can "snuggle" into him then my position will be more "parallel", but still slightly off-center from his chest. If he's fat, it's going to be again more "V-shape". Each leader is going to require the follower to take a different position, including placement of her left arm and the position of her head. Some guys I feel more comfortable with my head to the right of his face, looking behind him, sometimes facing right (especially in V-shape), sometimes, straight ahead with my head resting on his chin or cheek (if tall enough). As I always tell my student, just make sure your neck isn't turned, but straight, or you will feel it better, and make sure your left arm is comfortable and supported by yourself, so you don't become weighty. Beyond that, frame is going to change for each leader that you dance with, so it's impossible to say there is only one way of positioning yourself.
My 2 pesos,
Nicole from Miami
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:36:55 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: V frame.
This discussion reminds me of this song...
El Bandito de Tango
Crabs Walk Sideways
Herman met Sally on the beach one night,
The sea was calm and the starfish were bright.
She looked at him and he looked at her it was true love at first sight.
Well, Herman told his folks about the girl that he found, They said,
"Herman there must be other girls around. 'Cause crabs walk sideways,
lobsters walk straight and We won't let you take her for your mate."
Chorus:
Crabs walk sideways and lobsters welk straight,
And you can't take a crab for your mate.
Well, Herman told his Sally and it broke her heart
She loved that lobster right from the start
He took her in his claws and said "I'll always be yours,
But still, dear, we'll have to part." Chorus:
She said, "Let me talk to your mom and dad,
I'll show them crabs really aren't that bad."
But they turned her away
"What will the neighbors say."
And they laughed at the funny walk she had. Chorus:
Then one day on the sandbar what did Herman see,
But his little ol' Sally walking straight as can be.
He said, "Sweetheart now they'll take you in the family!"
She said, "Don't you sweetheart me! Hic!"
Chorus:
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:25:15 -0400
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: V frame.
Nicole:
It what you wrote is true, then I do the impossible every time I dance!!
Thank you for the compliment. I want the woman directly in front of me. We
don't hit legs, knees, etc because THE WOMAN MOVES FIRST!! That's right. The
woman moves first. That's conditional on the man standing on the balls of
his feet, and not his heels. If he is on his heels, his pelvis is thrust
forward and so are his feet. When the man's hips are back, his chest will
extend beyond his feet. By moving his weight and not the feet, with knees
slightly bent, his upper body will move first. The woman (as long as she is
on the balls of her feet, knees bent) will move out of the man's way,
creating a space for him to step. The person moving backward has to get out
of the way of the person moving forward.
When the move leads the open box, when he goes backward, he has to get
himself out of the way before having the woman step forward. Most women
aren't used to stepping forward so they don't step or step where they
shouldn't (around the man) causing havoc. (Men create the same havoc when
they try to step around the woman.)
Carlos Gavito has been quoted as saying "I lead, but I follow."
Sir Isaac Newton, an early tango dancer postulated some rules of tango. 1)
No two objects can occupy the same space so move the woman first with the
man's chest signaling intention. 2) For every action, there is an equal and
opposite reaction. The woman steps backward and the man comes forward the
same distance. One of England's queens knighted him for these observations.
Michael
Washington, DC
----- Original Message -----
From: <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame.
I don't understand this "parallel frame" that people are talking about.
From the way it is being described on this list, it seems that you want the
woman directly in front of you. Impossible. In any partner dance, the
woman has to be slightly to the right of the man's chest, not directly
center, in order to not hit legs, knees, feet, etc. >
> My 2 pesos,
> Nicole from Miami
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 01:49:02 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: V frame.
Michael, cute history of Newton. Who knew?
Nicole, is your background in ballroom? Don't mean to sound judgemental,
just sincerely curious. But "in any partner dance..." is a little too
absolute to be true, IMO. Michael is exactly correct. You can dance quite
successfully exactly in front of your partner in tango as long as both
partners have their weight forward to give a little space between their
toes, and the partner moving away from the other partner moves first to
create a space. Of course "moving first" is really a matter of millisecond
differences, because one of the beauties of tango is that both partners
appear to be moving simultaneously. But it does require a good connection
and responsiveness by the follower to the leader's intentions, and by the
leader to the follower's actions/responses.
In my opinion and preference, the tango embrace is a hug. Have you ever
hugged someone who gave you a "V" hug? It gives me the feeling of a lack of
emotional committment to the connection of the embrace that is decidedly
unsatisfying. I find the same true in tango.
Almost all (not absolutely all) of the teachers in Portland emphasive the
follower being directly in front of the leader. Of course there are times
when you shift a bit, usually toward a "V-ish" frame with the follower
slightly to the leader's right, though sometimes that's more a matter of
carelessness or sloppiness in the frame, like someone posted, ala Luciana,
"letting" the woman go there regardless of what the leader might want. It's
also true that some steps, eg. a CW single axis turn, actually require the
follower to be, if not fully centered, perhaps even slightly to the left of
center wrt the leader.
One last note. When my partner Jodi Syverson and I went to BsAs in 2002,
she, "raised" as we both were in a "Portland style," direct-in-front frame,
had difficulty because most of the leaders she danced with there did the "V"
embrace, which she had difficulty following. Not sure if her leaders were
mostly tourists, but in any case it took her a few milongas to get the hang
of following that style.
All this emphasizes to me that tango is, above all, an individual dance, and
just because two people do it differently doesn't make either one right or
wrong, just different.
J in Portland
----Original Message Follows----
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Reply-To: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame.
Washington, DC
----- Original Message -----
From: <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame.
I don't understand this "parallel frame" that people are talking about.
From the way it is being described on this list, it seems that you want the
woman directly in front of you. Impossible. In any partner dance, the
woman has to be slightly to the right of the man's chest, not directly
center, in order to not hit legs, knees, feet, etc. >
> My 2 pesos,
> Nicole from Miami
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:18:11 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: V frame and close embrace. Video aid.
Two notes.
1.
Video illustrations:
V-frame: https://dancetutor.com/tw-6.htm
Close embrace: https://www.tangospring.com/tangoimages/tInga.wmv
Notice that in the second example there is a bit of embrace openning for
follower's front step. Very little. With some of the followers (especially
if they happened to take lessons at La Academia in BsAs) there is no need to
open at all even for the front step. In fact one of my students didn't have
to do it either. But then she is also a belly dancer - excellent separation
of hips from the chest.
2.
CARLOS AMOK reported from Buenos Aires directly:
"Los invito a todos a ver en Buenos Aires que nosotros no bailamos en V...
Vengan a Buenos Aires y veran que bailamos con los pechos y hombros
paralelos."
My Spanish is not that hot. But the gist of Carloses message is that at
_milongas_ in Buenos Aires people dance chest to chest. On the other hand at
tango _shows_ in BsAs all you see is V-frames. He invites everyone to visit
the city and see it for yourself.
I have visited and indeed saw as well as experienced exactly that. People
dance chest to chest at milongas in Buenos Aires. I should probably narrow
it down to 9 popular milongas downtown BsAs I went to.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 01:01:34 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: V frame.
----Original Message Follows----
>From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
>Nicole:
>It what you wrote is true, then I do the impossible every time I dance!!
>him for these observations.
>Michael
Michael,
The parallel, chest to chest system is actually somewhat difficult to do at
first. The slight V is extremely common even in BsAs. True, many teachers
teach that the man and woman are parallel to each other, but when they dance
they are not completely parallel. I dance in many different ways depending
in each partner prefernce. My personal preference is to dance in a very
close embrace, but I do not limit myself by following some rigid idea or
theory.
BTW, it's wrong to say that the man is leaning forward on the balls of his
feet. Too many people teach that stuff and every leader that does that is
always falling and can never dance very well. The true close embrace,
milonguero style requires very good grounding by the man and in reality one
steps flat footed and some great milongueros (Armando Orsuza comes to mind)
actually teach the leaders to step heel first!
Oh BTW Michael, you should sometime try to get a dance with Nicole (good
luck, she is in very high demand). She is actually quite good and a lot of
fun to dance with. Save me a dance or 2 the next time I'm in Miami Nicole
:-)
Manuel
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:34:33 -0300
From: CARLOS AMOK <desdelejosetejuna@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: V frame. VS. ARGENTINA'S WAY
Dear Aron,
and all the others inthe "TANGO ARGENTINO LIST",
I was in east Europe some time, I decide to change the
polish language, or declare impossible , because was
impossible for me.
I Kindly invite you to come to Buenos Aires to see
that we dance "parallel" . Please, check our
milongas.-
My English is very bad.-
I am not good in theoretical arguments, but belived or
not we dance parallel.
Cheers
Carlos
(I forgot to mention the polish people doesn't accept
my idea to change the Polish language)
--- "Ecsedy Aron" <aron@MILONGA.HU> escribis:
> Dear Carlos and everyone else,
>
> If you think about it objectively, the most organic
> position would be a
> V-shape.
>
> A true parallel hold is physically not possible
> (unless you are kissing)
> because of your heads. A slight shift to the right
> is always there
> (small as it may be). Of course the feeling is
> slightly different, but I
> cannot see any technical differences in the basic
> idea of the
> lead/follow because of this. (of course you have to
> consider that the
> relative 'default' position of the follower is
> slightly different)
>
> Also if you dance completely parallel, you'll have
> to turn your left
> (ladies right) arms (shoulder) out quite a bit to be
> able to hold hands.
> Of course it is not impossible and if you are used
> to it you might even
> feel comfortable like that - and there are quite a
> number of people who
> dance this way.
>
> I wouldn't vote for one or the other, since
> (respected) dancers use both
> of these. I think this is simply one of those
> style-related debates.
> I've seen dancers in a recognizable V-hold who are
> considered very
> authentic and 'milonguero', so I wouldn't condemn
> V-shape as non
> authentic. (actually canyengue uses a sort of a
> v-shape)
>
> With a partner of the same height as me or taller (I
> am 170cm tall -
> that's around 5 foot 7 inches - so it happens often)
> it is not so
> comfortable to dance in parallel hold.
>
> Cheers,
> Aron
> From Hungary
>
>
>
> > Nicole,
> > try to learn tngo argentino, is nice.-Please,
> don't feel
> > ofended.- Jus is something that you don't know
>
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
Correo Yahoo! - 6 MB, tecnologma antispam !gratis!
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:07:56 +0200
From: B?IkVjc2VkeSDBcm9uIiA?= <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: V frame. VS. ARGENTINA'S WAY
Dear Listeros,
I've just checked all my tango pictures and I couldn't find a single one
in a 'parallel' position. Gavito's name was referred in some earlier
letter: I have a nice picture on him with his partner in a beautiful
v-shape.
I think we are having a communication problem here.
Some people probably thought that the 'v-shape' is something like a
ballroom promande position. Actually after some checking of poses, I
found that international tango IS parallel (but offset to the right),
but in argentine tango... (you must turn your head right or left to
accomodate the partners head - which requires quite a flexibility to do,
even without dancing, if your shoulders are completely parallel.)
Actually, I don't remember to have seen tango danced in true parallel.
I've sent some pictures to Carlos to demonstrate (taken in BsAs: one on
the street, one at a milonga, one at a performance by Gavito and one
with Balmaceda).
Check your photos and PLEASE send me some where I can see parallel
shoulders!
Thank you!
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:38:06 -0400
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: V frame.
Manuel:
The parallel, chest-to-chest system may be somewhat difficult for you at
first, but not for me nor for a lot of other people. In Washington, I see
very few couples dancing in a "V."
Next, it's NOT wrong to say the man is leaning forward on the balls of his
feet. The leader is falling forward because he has no balance. I used to
lose my balance. I stood pigeon toed (toes facing inward) so I wasn't
grounded. I became grounded once I learned to point my feet slightly
outwards. Now I have balance. Yes, it feels like you're falling foward,
but then your foot moves forward under your body to catch yourself so you
don't fall. The woman is following the upper body unless the man is
thrusting his arms forward to lead the woman.
Michael
Standing firm on my position
Manuel wrote:
> >
> Michael,
> The parallel, chest to chest system is actually somewhat difficult to do
> at > first.
> BTW, it's wrong to say that the man is leaning forward on the balls of his
> feet. Too many people teach that stuff and every leader that does that is
> always falling and can never dance very well.
> Manuel
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:48:54 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: V frame.
Thanks, Deb!
Dear Deb and Listeros:
But what's missing in this discussion is the relative position/s of the
man's and woman's hips to each other. In the milonguero or apilado frame their
hips are parallel to each other; in the V-frame they're not. I've danced with
women who insist on the V-frame and it's extremely difficult for me to lead
them into a CCW or contra molinete as they have to really crank their hips
around to rotate CCW.
Hence the real and hidden meaning of the song... Crabs Walk Sideways
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 10/26/04 3:48:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
deb@danceoftheheart.com writes:
thanx, this is adorable!
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:37 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame.
This discussion reminds me of this song...
El Bandito de Tango
Crabs Walk Sideways
Herman met Sally on the beach one night,
The sea was calm and the starfish were bright.
She looked at him and he looked at her it was true love at first sight.
Well, Herman told his folks about the girl that he found, They said,
"Herman there must be other girls around. 'Cause crabs walk sideways,
lobsters walk straight and We won't let you take her for your mate."
Chorus:
Crabs walk sideways and lobsters welk straight,
And you can't take a crab for your mate.
Well, Herman told his Sally and it broke her heart
She loved that lobster right from the start
He took her in his claws and said "I'll always be yours,
But still, dear, we'll have to part." Chorus:
She said, "Let me talk to your mom and dad,
I'll show them crabs really aren't that bad."
But they turned her away
"What will the neighbors say."
And they laughed at the funny walk she had. Chorus:
Then one day on the sandbar what did Herman see,
But his little ol' Sally walking straight as can be.
He said, "Sweetheart now they'll take you in the family!"
She said, "Don't you sweetheart me! Hic!"
Chorus:
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:58:55 -0700
From: bodenst-tango9427@MAILBLOCKS.COM
Subject: Re: V frame. VS. ARGENTINA'S WAY
Listeros:
https://www.close-embrace.com/latenightportland101604/index.htm
Here are some recent photos of couples dancing at TangoFest in
Portland. There are dancers from all over the country and the world
represented here. There are dancers of all styles, as well:
milongero/apilado, tango salon, nuevo tango, etc. Sometimes what one
sees with the eye is different from what one feels with the body or
with the heart, or what one has learned theoretically. I submit this
link merely as evidence for your consideration. Judge for yourself
from these pictures whether or not people ever dance (even momentarily)
in a parallel frame.
If you missed them, there are lots of other wonderful, delightful
photos on this site as well.
In any event, it seems to me that this thread has been exhausted.
Abrazos,
Carrie
~~~~~~~~
"Guys, to dance tango, you must listen to the heart of the woman."
--Cacho Dante
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:07:56 +0200
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame. VS. ARGENTINA'S WAY
Dear Listeros,
I've just checked all my tango pictures and I couldn't find a single one
in a 'parallel' position. Gavito's name was referred in some earlier
letter: I have a nice picture on him with his partner in a beautiful
v-shape.
I think we are having a communication problem here.
Some people probably thought that the 'v-shape' is something like a
ballroom promande position. Actually after some checking of poses, I
found that international tango IS parallel (but offset to the right),
but in argentine tango... (you must turn your head right or left to
accomodate the partners head - which requires quite a flexibility to do,
even without dancing, if your shoulders are completely parallel.)
Actually, I don't remember to have seen tango danced in true parallel.
I've sent some pictures to Carlos to demonstrate (taken in BsAs: one on
the street, one at a milonga, one at a performance by Gavito and one
with Balmaceda).
Check your photos and PLEASE send me some where I can see parallel
shoulders!
Thank you!
Cheers,
Aron
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:07:13 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: V frame. VS. ARGENTINA'S WAY
Carrie writes:
>> "In any event, it seems to me that this thread has been exhausted."
.
But we're getting so close now, to finally nailing down, once & for all, what Tango really is, in dance style & music ;^)
.
I hope someone's taking notes, for the edicts... ;o)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:18:53 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: V frame - Paralel-to run Amok
Dear friends from Tango list
There are some last postings from a person ,Carlos Amok, that was necessary to translate to english from spanish.
This surname reminds me of the stories of Emilio Salgari , about Sandokan and Yaniez, the "tigers of Mompracem" , that have to fight to the terrible warriors Amok, that made some snuffing of the so called "fleurs veneneuses" , pavot blanc d4Asie, haschich, opium , morphine , a family of toxics generally called Amok by the malayan people. This warriors were so intoxicated that they run wild and kill whatever they found in their way until they were killed.
To say that all Tango taught abroad has nothing to do with the "real" tango danced in Buenos Aires, is like run amok with toxic , we have to be extremely careful when making general/universal claims like this one.
One person at this list, I think it was Stephen Brown from Tejas, said once the nicest thing I ever heard , it was more or less " we try at our local tango community to get people in motion to the dance floor to dance tango " .
From that moment, all that you do is your tango, your style, and is authentic . And the quality of the tango you dance in a random place all over the world, is the same quality that you have when dancing at a tango place in Buenos Aires, because is yours, it belongs to you, you sweat all the line down , pressed in a seat on airplane for 10 , 16 hours, 32 hours , depending your origin , and just at your arrival, went to La Ideal or any other milonga and start dancing . That was what your good teachers wanted you to do, and be welcome, and let us share the same space , at this privileged time to share , maybe without knowing one each other .
And if you noticed when taking lessons , that one argentine teacher says something , and other argentine teacher says another thing, if both things were said before saying " this is the way I feel tango" , go ahead and be blessed , and gathered all the tits and bits for your tool box, sooner or later , all the scattered steps will fit in a proper step at a proper time with the proper partner
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
Encontra mas informacisn aqum.
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:08:08 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: V Frame
Dear list,
If you quote me, please quote my notes with all relevant information. In my
experience, which includes ballroom dance in the USA, popular dances since I
was a kid in Latin America, dancing in most milongas in Buenos Aires, and
studying/observing male/female teachers from all styles, I still stand
behind my original statement:
" The "V" happens naturally because of the dance embrace (non symmetrical),
however I think we should try to be as parallel as possible with our
partners, the more chest to chest contact, the better and easier the
connection and communication of the lead"
As an example, both Suzana Miller and Cacho dance in a V (read more before
you kill me), even though they teach/say otherwise, the V frame is
impossible to avoid because the dance embrace is not symmetrical, the
question is not "IF" there is a V, the question is how many degrees the
angle (1 to 180+) of the V is in the couple's embrace [Cacho-Suzana is
probably 1 degree], and every partner/couple is different.
I am not at all surprise by the amount of responses this topic has received,
I think (my opinion) that at least in the USA (where a lot of the list users
are from), we have ballroom dance heritage, and many tango dancers have some
sort of ballroom influence in them, to me this represents a problem for
tango, because in ballroom dancers move forward (from the leader's
perspective), and in tango dancers move sideways (to the left from the
leader's perspective), I know this may irritate the heck out of you, so I am
sorry but please keep reading before you kill me. I also have observed that
most leaders that have problems with floor craft dance forward.
We must remember that tango is a circular dance, meaning is danced in
circles, that is why when you go to Buenos Aires, you will see dancers
constantly turning, the trouble to learn/execute turns arises from the
notion that we must dance forward (I attribute this to ballroom heritage,
but it may be something else), thus the turn becomes almost impossible to
execute, but if you dance sideways, the molinete's (grape vine) pattern
happens naturally in the follower, and it tends to run in circles if the
leader stay in place (how milongueros dance in BA). I don't expect everyone
to agree or understand this, but I think eventually if you keep studying you
may realize it.
Tango is flexible, so you can walk forward, but you may notice that most
walks in tango by experienced dancers happen in cross feet. Which to me
suggest a forced twist in a straight line of the circular molinete pattern.
I don't mean to offend anyone, I am just expressing what I have learned
through my 8 years of tango dancing, and to share what I have learn from the
old guys in Buenos Aires. I know that many of you may and will disagree,
and that is good, sharing experiences is a great way to learn.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:20:37 -0400
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: V frame.
Manual on your suggestion of Michael dancing a tango with me:
I don't think I could give the opportunity to dance with him if he insists on dancing this way. Sounds very uncomfortable for me, and I have no desire to support someone's weight who is falling forward heads/shoulders first. I just might have to step back quickly and watch him fall on his face.
Nicole
--- On Wed 10/27, Michael < tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET > wrote:
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:38:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame.
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:28:20 -0400
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: V Frame
Carlos wrote:
I am not at all surprise by the amount of responses this topic has received,
I think (my opinion) that at least in the USA (where a lot of the list users
are from), we have ballroom dance heritage, and many tango dancers have some
sort of ballroom influence in them, to me this represents a problem for
tango, because in ballroom dancers move forward (from the leader's
perspective), and in tango dancers move sideways (to the left from the
leader's perspective), I know this may irritate the heck out of you, so I am
sorry but please keep reading before you kill me. I also have observed that
most leaders that have problems with floor craft dance forward.
First, I don't get what you wrote about the ballroom dancers moving forward and tango dancers move sideways. I thought both dancers move both directions. And if you are meaning dancing outside partner, well advanced ballroom dancers do that too. So, explain what you mean by that.
Also, regarding the way tango teachers teach in the states vs. those from Argentina. What if you have been fortunate to learn strictly by tango teachers who are from or live in Buenos Aires who have taught here on trips. That's my case, with the exception of one teacher who got me started. Otherwise, I've only learned by top masters out of Buenos Aires. So, does that mean I learn to dance like a dancer from the US or one from Buenos Aires?
Nicole from Miami
--- On Wed 10/27, Carlos Rojas < Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG > wrote:
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:08:08 -0700
Subject: [TANGO-L] V Frame
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:50:48 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: V Frame
Carlos Rojas approached the V frame from a different angle:
"As an example, both Suzana Miller and Cacho dance in a V (read more before
you kill me), ... the question is how many degrees the angle (1 to 180+) of
the V is in the couple's embrace [Cacho-Suzana is probably 1 degree], and
every partner/couple is different."
True, "II" is extreme case of "V", just like a circle is an extreme case of
square. True as well that our bodies are not flat. However just like in
those two geometrical examples there is significant leap in quality of
connection at certain angle, different for different body types, when one
can start to loose the connection. At that point close embrace becomes
V-frame, where dancers are connected at one side of torso and at hands
(leader's left and follower's right) and one has to lead with that left
hand/arm (hence V-frame, not close embrace).
I hope the wound is not deadly. Take deep breaths! Do not look at the white
light!
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
>Reply-To: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] V Frame
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:08:08 -0700
>
>Dear list,
>If you quote me, please quote my notes with all relevant information. In
>my
>experience, which includes ballroom dance in the USA, popular dances since
>I
>was a kid in Latin America, dancing in most milongas in Buenos Aires, and
>studying/observing male/female teachers from all styles, I still stand
>behind my original statement:
>
>" The "V" happens naturally because of the dance embrace (non symmetrical),
>however I think we should try to be as parallel as possible with our
>partners, the more chest to chest contact, the better and easier the
>connection and communication of the lead"
>
>As an example, both Suzana Miller and Cacho dance in a V (read more before
>you kill me), even though they teach/say otherwise, the V frame is
>impossible to avoid because the dance embrace is not symmetrical, the
>question is not "IF" there is a V, the question is how many degrees the
>angle (1 to 180+) of the V is in the couple's embrace [Cacho-Suzana is
>probably 1 degree], and every partner/couple is different.
>
>I am not at all surprise by the amount of responses this topic has
>received,
>I think (my opinion) that at least in the USA (where a lot of the list
>users
>are from), we have ballroom dance heritage, and many tango dancers have
>some
>sort of ballroom influence in them, to me this represents a problem for
>tango, because in ballroom dancers move forward (from the leader's
>perspective), and in tango dancers move sideways (to the left from the
>leader's perspective), I know this may irritate the heck out of you, so I
>am
>sorry but please keep reading before you kill me. I also have observed
>that
>most leaders that have problems with floor craft dance forward.
>
>We must remember that tango is a circular dance, meaning is danced in
>circles, that is why when you go to Buenos Aires, you will see dancers
>constantly turning, the trouble to learn/execute turns arises from the
>notion that we must dance forward (I attribute this to ballroom heritage,
>but it may be something else), thus the turn becomes almost impossible to
>execute, but if you dance sideways, the molinete's (grape vine) pattern
>happens naturally in the follower, and it tends to run in circles if the
>leader stay in place (how milongueros dance in BA). I don't expect
>everyone
>to agree or understand this, but I think eventually if you keep studying
>you
>may realize it.
>
>Tango is flexible, so you can walk forward, but you may notice that most
>walks in tango by experienced dancers happen in cross feet. Which to me
>suggest a forced twist in a straight line of the circular molinete pattern.
>
>I don't mean to offend anyone, I am just expressing what I have learned
>through my 8 years of tango dancing, and to share what I have learn from
>the
>old guys in Buenos Aires. I know that many of you may and will disagree,
>and that is good, sharing experiences is a great way to learn.
>
>Carlos Rojas
>Portland, OR
>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:56:46 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: V Frame-Humor
I thought this was pretty funny, but right on the money (as I am trying to
loose weight).
The person responsible is anonymous since I did not ask her permission.
"Right on, Carlos, you're totally correct. And, no offense intended, but
I'm willing to bet that you've noticed a change in degrees in the V of the
embrace that the follower takes (getting smaller) as you've slimmed down
yourself"
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:20:48 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: V Frame
Nicole from Miami wrote:
"First, I don't get what you wrote about the ballroom dancers moving forward
and tango dancers move sideways. I thought both dancers move both
directions. And if you are meaning dancing outside partner, well advanced
ballroom dancers do that too. So, explain what you mean by that.
Also, regarding the way tango teachers teach in the states vs. those from
Argentina. What if you have been fortunate to learn strictly by tango
teachers who are from or live in Buenos Aires who have taught here on trips.
That's my case, with the exception of one teacher who got me started.
Otherwise, I've only learned by top masters out of Buenos Aires. So, does
that mean I learn to dance like a dancer from the US or one from Buenos
Aires?"
Nicole,
You bring a lot of good points, to elaborate a little more on the sideways
dance thing, the leader's back is towards the center of the dance floor and
obviously the follower's back is towards the tables, and literally you just
dance to the left of the leader, a little 45 degree angle makes it even
easier.
I did not say anything about teachers, but since you are mentioning, in my
experience not all Argentine teachers are good and/or know tango well or are
even good dancers, and good dancers are not always good teachers, and there
are some really good teachers in the USA (i.e. Robert Haulk, Nora
Dinzelbacher, Christy Cote, Jorge Nell, etc.)
I personally prefer to learn from the most experienced dancers/teacher in BA
and from the above mentioned teachers.
What makes a tango dancer?, In my experience, I have come to understand what
Argentineans mean when they say:
"Tango is danced with the heart and not with the feet"
Happy dancing.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:33:59 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: V frame
Brian dunn says "In the whole V-Frame discussion, it seems we've found
another "Blind men and
the elephant" topic, which consume so many keystrokes on this list every so
often. There are big V's, smaller V's, open V's and closed V's. There are
vanishingly tiny V's. Unless I can SEE you demonstrate what you mean by a
V-Frame, the odds of misunderstanding you are very high."
I entirely agree with his observation. It should be obvious to any tango
dancer both in Buenos Aires and elsewhere that the embrace is asymmetrical,
as explained by Carlos Rojas. It has an open side (the left side of the man)
and a closed side (the right side of the man).
Please look at the first set of pictures sent by Oleh under name "close
embrace" you will see that out of the four pictures three show the "closed
side" where it is impossible to see the off position of the man with respect
to the man in the v frame. The man places his right nipple on the chest
bonne of the woman he is therefore off to her right . The third picture in
that group shows the open side of the embrace where it is obvious that the
man is off to her right in a V embrace.
This is present even when they are dancing in a very close embrace. So close
embrace and V embrace can be the same thing. V frame allows to dance
separated (in open embrace) or very close in a very close embrace . This
close embrace does not mean that the frame is parallel at all.
The pictures that Oleh shows under "V frame" are taken from the open side
which makes the V embrace very obvious. As mentioned in Brian's note this V
embrace may vary enormously from moment to moment and from couple to couple.
Summary (IMO) what Oleh calls close embrace is V Frame in Salon Close
embrace.
Very few people dance totally parallel to each other.
As to Carlos Amok's notes I entirely agree with Alberto Gesualdi.
Let's continue dancing tango Argentino, for we are doing it very well in any
of its multiple forms.
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:11:06 -0400
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: V frame.
Manuel (I'm sure you would like your name spelled correctly):
I don't want to dance with Nicole. I've danced that way ("V") and it feels terrible. It feels like driving a car with the front wheels not =
aligned. One side of the car wants to go straight and the other side pulls to the right. It's very difficult to steer and in terms of Nicole, =
probably difficult to lead. Clearly Nicole doesn't understand that each dancer, standing on the balls of their feet, is responsible for =
supporting themselves. I have NEVER fallen on my face. It looks like each partner is supporting the other but that's just an illusion, like =
tango is to most who don't understand. Tango is like magic, without the curtain.
Michael
Washington, DC
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame.
> Manual on your suggestion of Michael dancing a tango with me:
>
> I don't think I could give the opportunity to dance with him if he insists on dancing this way. Sounds very uncomfortable for me, and I =
have no desire to support someone's weight who is falling forward heads/shoulders first. I just might have to step back quickly and watch =
him fall on his face.
>
> Nicole
>
>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:12:54 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: V frame.
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
>Manuel (I'm sure you would like your name spelled correctly):
Thank you Michael, I do prefer the correct spelling, but I'm not angry with
Nicole for a misspelling error "un tropezon cualquiera da en la vida". ;-)
>I don't want to dance with Nicole. I've danced that way ("V") and it feels
>terrible. It feels like >driving a car with the front wheels not aligned.
>One side of the car wants to go straight and the >other side pulls to the
>right. It's very difficult to steer and in terms of Nicole, probably
>difficult to >lead.
Well, looks like no cabeceos will fix this mess...... Too bad about the
dance rejections being presented in public. I feel bad that it came to this.
I actually thought you might one day get to meet Nicole and dance with her.
I have not had the pleasure of meeting you in person yet. All I know about
you is based on waht you write to the list. I hope we get to meet one of
these days in person I look forward to speaking with you :-)
>Clearly Nicole doesn't understand that each dancer, standing on the balls
>of their feet, is >responsible for supporting themselves. I have NEVER
>fallen on my face. It looks like each partner is >supporting the other but
>that's just an illusion, like tango is to most who don't understand. Tango
> >is like magic, without the curtain.
Well, I have met Nicole and I think she does have some idea about dance,
balance, etc. So in this case I'll disagree with you. I'm very glad to hear
you've never fallen on your face, that would undoubtedly be painfull no to
mention embarrasing if it happened during a dance.
I don't know about illusions of balance, I do know that often times in tango
what you see is quite different from what you feel. I'm sure you have your
way of dancing as I do mine, but for I've tried several different "styles"
of tango. Although one of the ways to way (particularly in the salon style)
emphacized the man landing on the balls of the feet, it is not a universally
taught technique. Way back years ago, somebody came up with some confusion
regarding the "leaning forward on the balls of the feet" this was supposedly
what the "milongueros" did (both partners actually). Of course, this was
long ago put to rest by Susana Miller herself who told me that the "leaning"
was totally incorrect as each dancer is responsible for his or her axis and
balance. Also, I've notice that Susana herself dances very flat footed when
she leads as do other "apilado" style dancers. BTW, I always dance with
Susana Miller when she comes to Atlanta, I enjoy dancing with her and we
always visit and chat a lot, laugh together, etc. We have a very congenial
relationship.
I will say that I've noticed a number of dancers who do dance on the balls
of their feet and lean forward noticeably. I've also noticed that they seem
to be always "falling" forward and have some difficulty maintaining their
balance. Of course, your mileage might vary, etc.
Regards,
Manuel
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:43:14 -0500
From: pablo gracia <tangopablo@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: V frame - Paralel-to run Amok
Estimado Alberto,
es muy interesante tu analisis del nombre AMOK, el
tipo esta rematadamente loco de toda locura,-
yo conozco personalmnte a esa persona --- no es
normal---
Cree que el tango argentino es grande y unico y merece
cierto respeto cultural - Adenas de cierto amor
(claro, por aquellos que lo aman).-
Mi sugerencia es que lo destruyas (a C.A.) para que
el tango alternativo triunfe, asi como paso con el
rock nacional.-
pablo
vos podes destruirlo porque hablas ingles y tenes
nivel como para ponerlo en su lugar (el loquero de
los decadentes y miserables milongueros)
pablo
Jugate, que tenemos que limpiar el tango del peso
inerte del pasado
-- Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
escribis:
> Dear friends from Tango list
> There are some last postings from a person ,Carlos
> Amok, that was necessary to translate to english
> from spanish.
>
> This surname reminds me of the stories of Emilio
> Salgari , about Sandokan and Yaniez, the "tigers of
> Mompracem" , that have to fight to the terrible
> warriors Amok, that made some snuffing of the so
> called "fleurs veneneuses" , pavot blanc d4Asie,
> haschich, opium , morphine , a family of toxics
> generally called Amok by the malayan people. This
> warriors were so intoxicated that they run wild and
> kill whatever they found in their way until they
> were killed.
>
> To say that all Tango taught abroad has nothing to
> do with the "real" tango danced in Buenos Aires, is
> like run amok with toxic , we have to be extremely
> careful when making general/universal claims like
> this one.
>
> One person at this list, I think it was Stephen
> Brown from Tejas, said once the nicest thing I ever
> heard , it was more or less " we try at our local
> tango community to get people in motion to the
> dance floor to dance tango " .
>
> From that moment, all that you do is your tango,
> your style, and is authentic . And the quality of
> the tango you dance in a random place all over the
> world, is the same quality that you have when
> dancing at a tango place in Buenos Aires, because is
> yours, it belongs to you, you sweat all the line
> down , pressed in a seat on airplane for 10 , 16
> hours, 32 hours , depending your origin , and just
> at your arrival, went to La Ideal or any other
> milonga and start dancing . That was what your good
> teachers wanted you to do, and be welcome, and let
> us share the same space , at this privileged time to
> share , maybe without knowing one each other .
>
> And if you noticed when taking lessons , that one
> argentine teacher says something , and other
> argentine teacher says another thing, if both things
> were said before saying " this is the way I feel
> tango" , go ahead and be blessed , and gathered all
> the tits and bits for your tool box, sooner or later
> , all the scattered steps will fit in a proper step
> at a proper time with the proper partner
>
> Warm regards
> Alberto Gesualdi
> Buenos Aires
>
>
>
> Ahora podis usar Yahoo! Messenger en tu Unifsn, en
> cualquier momento y lugar.
> Encontra mas informacisn aqum.
>
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 03:44:02 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: V frame
Oleh says "Try to lead your usual steps with yours and followers arms behind
your respective backs and with eyes closed. If it turns pink it s a girl!
The embrace in close embrace is just that, there is no leading with arms. On
the other hand the arms are very much a part of a frame, V-frame or open
embrace frame. "
He seems to be answering my last note. ? I totally agree with his
observation to some extent. I use those exercises with my students. I go
even further : leading with the chest at a distance of one foot from your
partner (by observing the chest movements) or leading while only the
forheads are touching.
When dancing Salon Style in close embrace we use a V frame, we are chest to
chest, we lead with the chest . There are certain moves that I lead with my
hands. (I lead!, other dancers may not do this).
Let's say I am dancing a milonga with contrapaso or traspie. I am in close
embrace, V frame. If I want the follower to syncopate while moving sidewise
with me - going to the my left or my right along with my chest I slightly
lift my right hand on her back to indicate this syncopation. This way I can
indicate one, two or more syncopations to my left she will stop syncopating
when I release this subtle lifting of my rt. hand. This means that she will
step right with her rt. foot and bring her left one close to the rt.
syncopating several times as indicated above. Rt. opens, lt.together-
rt.opens, lt. together, ...
If going backward (assuming there is space to do it) she walks forward I
lift my right hand on her back to indicate that she should lock her rt. foot
behind her left one as she syncopates forward. These are examples of the
simultaneous use of chest and hand lead while dancing in close embrace.
Whether you use your hands or not depends on the complexities of rhythm and
steps that you lead.
One certainly can only lead with his chest many of these rhythm changes and
steps but not all of them.
Parallel frame means perfectly framed in front of the woman nipple to nipple
( in case this aclaration is necessary).
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 00:39:55 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: V frame - Paralel-to run Amok
Hi Alberto,
Thanks for your post. It's was interesting to read about the Amok warriors
and their drug induced murderous rage. I also like the tenor and content of
your post. Thank you for presenting a calm voice among all the strident
vociferations.
While I can undersrtand the passionate feelings and beliefs of some tango
lovers, I don't particularly like or believe some of the labels and "hot
buttons" that Carlos Amok among others use against anyone who does not agree
with them. I'm particularly disenchanted with all the accusations of "money
grabbing" and practically treasonous behavior ascribed to any Argentinean
who dances or teaches tango "en el exterior".
While I'm not the ultimate authority in tango matters and I've only been
dancing it for 10 or so years, I've been to Argentina and Uruguay, gone to
milongas, met many old and young dancers, etc. I've taken lessons with local
teachers and danced with the people at the milongas. Many of them were
genuine portenios, I noticed that there are lots of different styles of
dance within the people who go to milongas and the milongas themselves have
different character or flavor depending where they are in the city.
The tango has certain characteristics but within these characteristics there
is a good bit of variation. Surely all the people I saw and met in BsAs were
not a bunch of fakers and posers.... Anyway, I've also never heard over
there so much criticism of small details and so many denunciations of
inauthenticity as I read in this list. Oh well, I guess the true gurus or
experts of tango are only heard here. Nobody that I met in Argentina or
Uruguay ever said anything about any particular style being more or less
authentic than another. The only big difference discussed was the one
between the Tango Oriental and the Tango from Bs As. Come to think of it, I
never heard any discussions about styles, embrace differences, money
grubbing teachers or world wide movements to destroy the authenticity of
tango by a sadly uninformed army of ignorant foreigners. Anyway, thanks
again for your measured and kinds words.
Regards,
Manuel
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
>Reply-To: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] V frame - Paralel-to run Amok
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:18:53 -0300
>Dear friends from Tango list
>There are some last postings from a person ,Carlos Amok, that was necessary
>to translate to >english from spanish.
>This surname reminds me of the stories of Emilio Salgari , about Sandokan
>and Yaniez, the "tigers >of Mompracem" , that have to fight to the terrible
>warriors Amok, that made some snuffing of the >so called "fleurs
>veneneuses" , pavot blanc d4Asie, haschich, opium , morphine , a family of
>toxics >generally called Amok by the malayan people. This warriors were so
>intoxicated that they run wild >and kill whatever they found in their way
>until they were killed.
>To say that all Tango taught abroad has nothing to do with the "real" tango
>danced in Buenos >Aires, is like run amok with toxic , we have to be
>extremely careful when making general/universal >claims like this one.
>One person at this list, I think it was Stephen Brown from Tejas, said once
>the nicest thing I ever >heard , it was more or less " we try at our local
>tango community to get people in motion to the >dance floor to dance tango
>" .
>From that moment, all that you do is your tango, your style, and is
>authentic . And the quality of ?>the tango you dance in a random place all
>over the world, is the same quality that you have when >dancing at a tango
>place in Buenos Aires, because is yours, it belongs to you, you sweat all
>the line >down , pressed in a seat on airplane for 10 , 16 hours, 32 hours
>, depending your origin , and just >at your arrival, went to La Ideal or
>any other milonga and start dancing . That was what your good >teachers
>wanted you to do, and be welcome, and let us share the same space , at this
>privileged >time to share , maybe without knowing one each other .
>And if you noticed when taking lessons , that one argentine teacher says
>something , and other >argentine teacher says another thing, if both things
>were said before saying " this is the way I feel >tango" , go ahead and be
>blessed , and gathered all the tits and bits for your tool box, sooner or
> >later , all the scattered steps will fit in a proper step at a proper
>time with the proper partner
>Warm regards
>Alberto Gesualdi
>Buenos Aires
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 00:53:13 -0400
From: jackie ling wong <jackie.wong@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: V frame - a follower's perspective
for me, one of the joys of tango is learning how to dance with "most"
leaders (not all because sometimes it just doesn't work)... i love the
mystery of figuring out how to help make the dance work for me and my
partner... i certainly don't dance the same way with every person and i
would guess that i probably dance differently with each. ..their height,
balance, step, embrace etc... cause me to make minor adjustments...
don't we all make adjustments?... and don't you find that the more
experienced you are, the better you become at compensating for your
partner's lack in dance skill?
and i'm sure that my partners make adjustments for me. that's why we have
3 -4 songs per tanda... to figure it out..
so if someone is dancing with an embrace i'm not familiar with, i'm going to
do my best to feel comfortable... i don't want to limit my dance experience
to just the familiar.
jackie
www.tangopulse.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame.
> Michael, cute history of Newton. Who knew?
>
> Nicole, is your background in ballroom? Don't mean to sound judgemental,
> just sincerely curious. But "in any partner dance..." is a little too
> absolute to be true, IMO. Michael is exactly correct. You can dance quite
> successfully exactly in front of your partner in tango as long as both
> partners have their weight forward to give a little space between their
> toes, and the partner moving away from the other partner moves first to
> create a space. Of course "moving first" is really a matter of millisecond
> differences, because one of the beauties of tango is that both partners
> appear to be moving simultaneously. But it does require a good connection
> and responsiveness by the follower to the leader's intentions, and by the
> leader to the follower's actions/responses.
>
> In my opinion and preference, the tango embrace is a hug. Have you ever
> hugged someone who gave you a "V" hug? It gives me the feeling of a lack
> of
> emotional committment to the connection of the embrace that is decidedly
> unsatisfying. I find the same true in tango.
>
> Almost all (not absolutely all) of the teachers in Portland emphasive the
> follower being directly in front of the leader. Of course there are times
> when you shift a bit, usually toward a "V-ish" frame with the follower
> slightly to the leader's right, though sometimes that's more a matter of
> carelessness or sloppiness in the frame, like someone posted, ala Luciana,
> "letting" the woman go there regardless of what the leader might want.
> It's
> also true that some steps, eg. a CW single axis turn, actually require the
> follower to be, if not fully centered, perhaps even slightly to the left
> of
> center wrt the leader.
>
> One last note. When my partner Jodi Syverson and I went to BsAs in 2002,
> she, "raised" as we both were in a "Portland style," direct-in-front
> frame,
> had difficulty because most of the leaders she danced with there did the
> "V"
> embrace, which she had difficulty following. Not sure if her leaders were
> mostly tourists, but in any case it took her a few milongas to get the
> hang
> of following that style.
>
> All this emphasizes to me that tango is, above all, an individual dance,
> and
> just because two people do it differently doesn't make either one right or
> wrong, just different.
>
> J in Portland
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
> Reply-To: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame.
> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:25:15 -0400
>
> Nicole:
> It what you wrote is true, then I do the impossible every time I dance!!
> Thank you for the compliment. I want the woman directly in front of me. We
> don't hit legs, knees, etc because THE WOMAN MOVES FIRST!! That's right.
> The
> woman moves first. That's conditional on the man standing on the balls of
> his feet, and not his heels. If he is on his heels, his pelvis is thrust
> forward and so are his feet. When the man's hips are back, his chest will
> extend beyond his feet. By moving his weight and not the feet, with knees
> slightly bent, his upper body will move first. The woman (as long as she
> is
> on the balls of her feet, knees bent) will move out of the man's way,
> creating a space for him to step. The person moving backward has to get
> out
> of the way of the person moving forward.
>
> When the move leads the open box, when he goes backward, he has to get
> himself out of the way before having the woman step forward. Most women
> aren't used to stepping forward so they don't step or step where they
> shouldn't (around the man) causing havoc. (Men create the same havoc when
> they try to step around the woman.)
>
> Carlos Gavito has been quoted as saying "I lead, but I follow."
>
> Sir Isaac Newton, an early tango dancer postulated some rules of tango. 1)
> No two objects can occupy the same space so move the woman first with the
> man's chest signaling intention. 2) For every action, there is an equal
> and
> opposite reaction. The woman steps backward and the man comes forward the
> same distance. One of England's queens knighted him for these
> observations.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame.
>
> I don't understand this "parallel frame" that people are talking about.
> From the way it is being described on this list, it seems that you want
> the
> woman directly in front of you. Impossible. In any partner dance, the
> woman has to be slightly to the right of the man's chest, not directly
> center, in order to not hit legs, knees, feet, etc. >
> > My 2 pesos,
> > Nicole from Miami
>
>
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Reply-To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] V frame
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:00:05 -0300
From: CARLOS AMOK <desdelejosetejuna@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: V frame - Paralel-to run Amok
--- CARLOS AMOK <desdelejosetejuna@yahoo.com.ar>
escribis:
> --- CARLOS AMOK <desdelejosetejuna@yahoo.com.ar>
> escribis:
> > Alberto,
> > Anuncias algo que agradeceria , "que seria
> necesario
> > traducir mis notas al espanol", cosa que
> agradeceria
> > mucho dado mi pobre ingles.-
> > A continuacion, no las traducis !!!(??hay algo que
> > no
> > te conviene??- o solo te olvidastes de tu primer
> > parrafo).-
> > Luego haces gala de tu conocimiento de literatura
> de
> > aventuras y de el sentido de intoxicacion que
> > implica
> > mi nombre, y que acepto... intoxicado de
> tango---no
> > de
> > gringas confusiones.-
> > Los adultos con cierto nivel cultural tambien
> > podrian
> > mencionar la obra de Stefan Zweig: donde Amok es
> un
> > estado de locura povocado por un cierto fenomeno
> > climatico.-
> > Te ruego que leas ese clasico antes de dar otra
> > leccion de literatura infantil.-
> > Tuve un companero de estudio de apellido Meszaros,
> > que
> > tiene su raiz en "carnicero" en hungaro.-????
> > Conozco un Morgenstern que significa "estrella de
> la
> > maniana" en aleman?????,,,,
> > "Pacho", Juan Maglio viene de "loco" en italianoy
> > podria seguir.... con lucidos ejemplos como el
> tuyo
> > (pero para adultos)
> > Tu direccion es argentina , como la mia, por lo
> cual
> > me atrevo a invitarte a conocer nuestra cultura e
> > identidad.-
> > Los extranjeros disfrutaran de buena fe del Tango
> de
> > la manera que quieran y les vendan.-
> > En esto estoy de acuerdo. Inclusive Rodolfo
> > Valentino
> > y la profesora de ballroom (Nicole) que nos
> quiere
> > hacer creer que es una estrella del tango en Miami
> > trata....
> > pero T. Argentino es Tango Argentino, y para
> > preservarlo no hace falta chuparles las medias a
> los
> > gringos (y agrego ahora) en su confusion.
> > Mas vale orientarlos con claridad entre el tango
> > comercial y el Tango Argentino.
> > Cuando la habanera llego a bsAs y fue transformada
> > como raiz del tango,
> > A nadie se le ocurrio llamar Habanera al naciente
> > tango...
> > como se habia cambiado en otra cosa, se llamo de
> > otra
> > manera: Tango.-
> > Me imagino un chupamedias de los cubanos tratando
> de
> > decir que se trataba del "progreso de la habanera"
> > (no
> > me refiero a nadie en particular).-
> > Espero que ahora te acuerdes de tu idea de
> traducir.
> > ?lo haras?....-
> > gracias.-
> > Carlos
> > N.: para hablar de literatura es conveniente
> conocer
> > varios libros.-
> > N2: para hablar de tango es conveniente haber
> > llegado antes de ayer
> > N3; avivate, nuestra cultura tiene valor por si
> > misma,
> > no necesita la confirmacion de los gringos.-
> > El tango ballroom y Rodolfo Valentino ya estan
> > inventados, no necesitan que vos los defiendas.-
> > Te pronostico exito entre los gringos....poco
> entre
> > la
> > gente de la milonga.
> >
> >
> >
> > -- Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
> > escribis:
> > > Dear friends from Tango list
> > > There are some last postings from a person
> ,Carlos
> > > Amok, that was necessary to translate to english
> > > from spanish.
> > >
> > > This surname reminds me of the stories of Emilio
> > > Salgari , about Sandokan and Yaniez, the "tigers
> > of
> > > Mompracem" , that have to fight to the terrible
> > > warriors Amok, that made some snuffing of the so
> > > called "fleurs veneneuses" , pavot blanc d4Asie,
> > > haschich, opium , morphine , a family of toxics
> > > generally called Amok by the malayan people.
> This
> > > warriors were so intoxicated that they run wild
> > and
truncated because the size
>
!Llevate a Yahoo! en tu Unifsn!
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:25:14 -0400
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: V frame.
Michael, I never said I dance V-frame. I said it depends on the size and height of the partner I dance with whether I dance parallel or V-frame, but still never direct center of my partner where my forehead or nose would be in their face. I also face straight, as over his shoulder or to the right...all depending on the guy. And I can hold myself up quite well. It's simply your technique in stance and posture that I question by throwing your hips backwards and dancing from your chest. Please tell me what teacher teaches this technique, because other than some that I know that are unqualified to teach, I have yet to find one who does that.
Nicole
--- On Wed 10/27, Michael Ditkoff < tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET > wrote:
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:11:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame.
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:30:51 -0400
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: V frame.
Nicole:
The chests of the partners face each other. The woman looks over my right
shoulder and I look over her right shoulder.
To clarify about the hips. The hips are pulled back just enough that the
person's weight goes to the balls of the foot. I am talking inches. I'm
not suggesting the dancer bend forward from the waist.
As for teachers who teach that the chest moves first, I don't have a
complete list. But these are the ones I know from classes I've taken:
Diego and Carolina, Junior, Virginia Kelly, Robin Thomas, Fabienne
Bongard. There are more but I don't have the time thinking about them.
List members are free to add to the list.
Michael
>
> Michael, I never said I dance V-frame. I said it depends on the size
and > height of the partner I dance with whether I dance parallel or
V-frame, but still never direct center of my partner where my forehead or
nose would be in their face. I also face straight, as over his shoulder
or
to > the right...all depending on the guy. And I can hold myself up quite
well. It's simply your technique in stance and posture that I question
by > throwing your hips backwards and dancing from your chest. Please tell
me > what teacher teaches this technique, because other than some that I
know that are unqualified to teach, I have yet to find one who does that.
>
> Nicole
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:07:40 -0400
From: Marianne Hansen <mhansen@BRYNMAWR.EDU>
Subject: Re: V frame and close embrace. Video aid.
> > V-frame: https://dancetutor.com/tw-6.htm
It's funny in a way that Oleh picked the Dance Tutor image to illustrate
the V-embrace. The dancers are Lesley Mitchell and Kelly Ray, of
Philadelphia (long time teachers and hosts of a milonga which celebrates
its tenth anniversary this December). Both of them in fact dance in a
variety of embraces, depending on the partner, the music, the moment,
etc. It has seemed to me for a while that their cheerful acceptance of
variation in style has served as a good example for the Philadelphia tango
community, which has so many good dancers who are able to adapt to their
partners' abilities and preferences and so few who just can't image how it
could ever work out.
Marianne
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:36:34 -0300
From: CARLOS AMOK <desdelejosetejuna@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: V frame. VS. ARGENTINA'S WAY
--
> > --- Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net> escribis:
> > > I just wanted to thank you for posting. We need
> > more
> > > people from Buenos
> > > Aires saying what they think. Please don't think
> > > that your English is bad -
> > > it is very easy to understand you.
> > >
> > > I'll be in Buenos Aires in November. I hope that
> > we
> > > will meet!
> > >
> > > Lois Donnay
> > > www.mndance.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: CARLOS AMOK
> > > [mailto:desdelejosetejuna@YAHOO.COM.AR]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 6:35 AM
> > > > To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> > > > Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame. VS.
> ARGENTINA'S
> > > WAY
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Aron,
> > > > and all the others inthe "TANGO ARGENTINO
> LIST",
> > > > I was in east Europe some time, I decide to
> > change
> > > the
> > > > polish language, or declare impossible ,
> because
> > > was
> > > > impossible for me.
> > > > I Kindly invite you to come to Buenos Aires to
> > see
> > > > that we dance "parallel" . Please, check our
> > > > milongas.-
> > > > My English is very bad.-
> > > > I am not good in theoretical arguments, but
> > > belived or
> > > > not we dance parallel.
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Carlos
> > > > (I forgot to mention the polish people
> doesn't
> > > accept
> > > > my idea to change the Polish language)
> > > >
>
!Llevate a Yahoo! en tu Unifsn!
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:36:59 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: V frame. VS. ARGENTINA'S WAY
Don Carlos Amok, (Spanish first, then English below)
Entiendo tu frustracion con bailadores que no son Argentinos que medio
aprenden el tango y despues pretenden saberlo. Y tambien estoy de acuerdo
de que algunos profesores Argentinos van a USA y Europe a enseņar baile de
esenario porque eso es lo que ve la gente en los shows y las peliculas, y es
lo que pagan para aprender. Pero muchos profesores enseņan el tango
correctamente y hay aqui un creciente numero de bailarines/profesores que
reciben el respecto de los milongueros en BA.
I understand your frustration with non Argentineans tango dancers learning
tango half way and then pretending to know it. And I agree with you that
some Argentine teachers go to the USA and Europe and teach stage dancing
because that is what people have seen in shows/movies, and that is what they
pay to learn. But many teach correctly and there are a growing number of
good dancers/teachers here, and get a lot of respect from the old guys in
BA.
La distorcion cultural pasa en todos los paises, Argentina tiene
probablemente el major numero de bandas de rock en Espaņol, y podriamos
hablar de problemas culturales hasta la eternidad.
This aspect of cultural distortion happens in every country, Argentina has
probably the biggest number of rock bands in any Spanish speaking country,
and we can continue to list cultural faults back and forth to eternity.
De todos modos, yo creo que no es apropiado insultar a alguien en la lista,
especialmente si estan haciendo preguntas y tratando de aprender, es muy
dificil aprender tango mientras se vive en USA, es como tratar de ser
pescador viviendo en las montaņas.
However, I think is inappropriate to insult anyone in the list, especially
when they are asking questions and are trying to learn, is very difficult
for many of us that live in the USA to learn tango correctly, is like trying
to be a fisherman living in the mountains.
El proposito de la lista de tango es de compartir las experiences para que
todos podamos aprender. Algunos miembros de la lista son
bailadores/profesores que tienen mucha experiencia, y algunos son
Argentinos.
The purpose of the tango list is to share experiences so we all can learn
from each other. Some of the list members are very accomplish
dancers/teachers, and some are from Argentina.
Yo creo que no conosco a Nicole, pero ella esta escribiendo en la lista para
compartir sus experiencias y lo que ha aprendido hasta ahora. Yo creo que
es deshorable que hayas publicado los comentarios que dices recibiste de
algunos bailadores en el area. Si son hombres, entonces en verdad es una
refleccion de lo malo que son como guias, y si son mujeres es porque le
tienen envidia a Nicole.
I don't know if I know Nicole, but she is writing to the list to share her
experiences and what she has learn thus far. I think it is dishonorable for
you to publish the comments you said you got from other dancers in the area.
If they were leaders, then it is truly a reflection on how poor their lead
is, and if they were followers then they are envious of Nicole.
Sobre todo, siempre se un caballero, y recuerda la regla # 1 del tango, el
hombre siempre tiene la culpa.
Above all, be a gentleman, and remember the #1 rule, the leader is always at
fault.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:19:19 -0400
From: John Gleeson <john.gleeson@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: V frame. VS. ARGENTINA'S WAY
Well said, Senor.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V frame. VS. ARGENTINA'S WAY
Don Carlos Amok, (Spanish first, then English below)
Entiendo tu frustracion con bailadores que no son Argentinos que medio
aprenden el tango y despues pretenden saberlo. Y tambien estoy de acuerdo
de que algunos profesores Argentinos van a USA y Europe a enseqar baile de
esenario porque eso es lo que ve la gente en los shows y las peliculas, y es
lo que pagan para aprender. Pero muchos profesores enseqan el tango
correctamente y hay aqui un creciente numero de bailarines/profesores que
reciben el respecto de los milongueros en BA.
I understand your frustration with non Argentineans tango dancers learning
tango half way and then pretending to know it. And I agree with you that
some Argentine teachers go to the USA and Europe and teach stage dancing
because that is what people have seen in shows/movies, and that is what they
pay to learn. But many teach correctly and there are a growing number of
good dancers/teachers here, and get a lot of respect from the old guys in
BA.
La distorcion cultural pasa en todos los paises, Argentina tiene
probablemente el major numero de bandas de rock en Espaqol, y podriamos
hablar de problemas culturales hasta la eternidad.
This aspect of cultural distortion happens in every country, Argentina has
probably the biggest number of rock bands in any Spanish speaking country,
and we can continue to list cultural faults back and forth to eternity.
De todos modos, yo creo que no es apropiado insultar a alguien en la lista,
especialmente si estan haciendo preguntas y tratando de aprender, es muy
dificil aprender tango mientras se vive en USA, es como tratar de ser
pescador viviendo en las montaqas.
However, I think is inappropriate to insult anyone in the list, especially
when they are asking questions and are trying to learn, is very difficult
for many of us that live in the USA to learn tango correctly, is like trying
to be a fisherman living in the mountains.
El proposito de la lista de tango es de compartir las experiences para que
todos podamos aprender. Algunos miembros de la lista son
bailadores/profesores que tienen mucha experiencia, y algunos son
Argentinos.
The purpose of the tango list is to share experiences so we all can learn
from each other. Some of the list members are very accomplish
dancers/teachers, and some are from Argentina.
Yo creo que no conosco a Nicole, pero ella esta escribiendo en la lista para
compartir sus experiencias y lo que ha aprendido hasta ahora. Yo creo que
es deshorable que hayas publicado los comentarios que dices recibiste de
algunos bailadores en el area. Si son hombres, entonces en verdad es una
refleccion de lo malo que son como guias, y si son mujeres es porque le
tienen envidia a Nicole.
I don't know if I know Nicole, but she is writing to the list to share her
experiences and what she has learn thus far. I think it is dishonorable for
you to publish the comments you said you got from other dancers in the area.
If they were leaders, then it is truly a reflection on how poor their lead
is, and if they were followers then they are envious of Nicole.
Sobre todo, siempre se un caballero, y recuerda la regla # 1 del tango, el
hombre siempre tiene la culpa.
Above all, be a gentleman, and remember the #1 rule, the leader is always at
fault.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
