723 What price tango?
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:26:23 -0700
From: Luda Requadt <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: What price tango?
On September 1, 2002, Christina Johnson of Exotic
Vacations included the following anouncement about the
prospective Hawaiian tango tour:
>....PRICE AFTER JUNE 1: $985 for men and couples,
(per person in the couple), and $1,015 for a single
woman. Women: if you succeed in registering a man, you
receive a $100 discount....
Is this a common practice among tangueros and
tangueras, women being paid for "persuading" men to
join certain tango events? Is there a shortage of men
dancing tango? Are there actually tangueras out there
who would do such a thing? And how do the men feel
about being used as a "discount coupon"? :) Besides,
you'd think that any woman who can afford to spend
$1,500 or so on a trip wouldn't quibble about an extra
$100. I've always considered the practice of singles
paying more for travel arrangements insulting which,
sadly, applies to both men and women in this culture.
However, the idea of only women being thus penalized
seems to be particularly unsavory. In any culture.
Also, what would be the logistics of such an
arrangement? Does the woman keep the entire $100, or
does she split it with the man? Would she inform him
up front about her motives for asking him to sign up?
(I can't see how she could keep it a secret. Not for
long, anyway.) And why do couples get only a $60
discount, rather than $100, like the ladies referred
to here? ;-)
I seem to be missing something here.... or being just
plain naive.
Luda
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:50:47 -0400
From: Georgia Littleton <glit10go@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What price tango?
--- Luda Requadt <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>Is this a common practice among tangueros and
>tangueras, women being paid for "persuading" men to
>join certain tango events? Is there a shortage of
>men
>dancing tango?
There certainly is!
>And how do the men feel
>about being used as a "discount coupon"?
I know men who have been offered admission to workshops and getaways free of
charge so that the presenter could ensure partners for the women who
enrolled. I don't how this affected the men's dignity, but one thing's
certain... they sure were tired!
>I've always considered the practice of
>singles
>paying more for travel arrangements insulting which,
>sadly, applies to both men and women in this
>culture.
>However, the idea of only women being thus penalized
>seems to be particularly unsavory. In any culture.
Why? Nobody is being penalized. Some people are being offered an
incentive. All sorts of demographics of consumer are offered incentives for
all sorts of products and services. What's unsavory about targeting
incentives to a gender?
Bars have "Ladies' Nights". They do it because they know, if the women are
there the men will come. Isn't the converse true for tango? If the men are
there, the women will come.
>Also, what would be the logistics of such an
>arrangement? Does the woman keep the entire $100, or
>does she split it with the man?
What you're describing is called a "kickback". People are motivated to pay
kickbacks in lots of transactions. They're proscribed by law in many cases.
I don't think the tango police will put out an APB for tango kickbackers.
>I seem to be missing something here.... or being
>just
>plain naive.
Maybe I'm the one who's missing something. I just don't see anything
sinister about the practice being described. Providing an incentive to
motivate a purchase makes obvious business sense for the presenter.
Providing a savings to a customer is great for him, and it's great for the
woman, too, if they decide to kickback the savings the way you described.
Why not provide this kind of discount? It needn't be regarded as an insult
to anyone. It doesn't feel a bit unsavory to me when I drink for free on
Ladies' Night. As a matter of fact, it feels great!
I'm all for anybody's creative attempts to drum up interest in tango. I
think tango will flourish only if it can attract and retain leaders. If
price incentives exist for men, will it get more men dancing? I don't know.
If somebody thinks it's worth a try and it works... great. If it feels
unsavory to patronize providers who offer gender-based incentives, it's
anyone's prerogative to vote with their feet.
I'll bet I'll catch a lot of heat if I suggest that it would be appropriate,
not only for men to enter discounted (or even free) into events that women
pay full price for, but for men's dancing to be valued so highly that they
be directly compensated by their female partners. That ought to sound very
unsavory, no?
Oh wait... the name for that is "lessons"!
;-)
That's what Georgia says.
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:28:31 +0000
From: Daisy Gardiner <tawny_port@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What price tango?
As I see it, the issue is not one of providing an incentive to get more men
to attend, but rather, a clear cut case of discrimination against single
women, something I believe is against the law. Perhaps a lawsuit is in
order?
Daisy
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:03:50 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What price tango?
> As I see it, the issue is not one of providing an incentive to get more
men
> to attend, but rather, a clear cut case of discrimination against single
> women, something I believe is against the law. Perhaps a lawsuit is in
> order?
OK, so any attempts by the organizer to achieve gender balance is cause for
a tort? I think not. I believe that lots of women (rightfully) complain
about workshops that are lopsided with a gender imbalance. They do not want
to pay their money and have to sit in the sidelines as they wait for some
guy to rotate to their place. What is the organizer to do? He or she will
either have to cut off registrations, establish a "couples only policy" or
offer inducements to whichever gender is most in demand. I'm sure that many
organizers find themselves from time to time with a shortage of men (or
women). The teachers get paid regardless and the organizer must foot the
bill. It's only fair that they try to maximize the number of paying
participants even if it means offering discounts or other inducements to the
people in demand. It's a bit unfair to expect them to either absorbe losses
or fail to make the effort to provide partners for all their participants.
Gender balance to all,
Manuel
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:38:49 +1000
From: Roger <rde@QDOS.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: What price tango?
Daisy Gardiner wrote:
>
> As I see it, the issue is not one of providing an incentive to get more men
> to attend, but rather, a clear cut case of discrimination against single
> women, something I believe is against the law. Perhaps a lawsuit is in
> order?
>
> Daisy
An organiser tries to ensure that single women are not doomed to
sitting around twiddling their thumbs because there are not enough males
- and this is (negative) discrimination - and worthy of litigation? The
above response was a joke, surely?
rde
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 18:19:48 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: What price tango?
Roger asked:
> An organiser tries to ensure that single women are not doomed to
> sitting around twiddling their thumbs because there are not enough males
> - and this is (negative) discrimination - and worthy of litigation?
I think that rather what may be worth considering, is this: there have been
a number of classes, courses, workshops, even milongas, where I have felt
like asking to have my money back, almost. The reason is, the men get to
dance all the time,to the point, where they get sick from exhaustion, or
flunk classes with some excuse, complain about sore knees and whatnot.
Meanwhile, the women never get tired, as they have to sit out almost every
second dance. If you think, this is depressing, let me tell you: I once took
a workshop with Gavito, where we had to sign up for a course of six
superexpensive classes or nothing, then it turned out, that there were about
four couples and three or four single women in the course. Gavito's way of
dealing with this was to say at the start of the class:"Please change
sometimes." And then he proceeded with the class, without ever paying
attention to whether any men of the actually changed partners. What happened
was,that the couples danced together almost all the time,while the single
women spent most of time standing by the wall and watched, and occasionally
got a "mercy dance" or two.
So, rather than asking for a lawsuit, I would like to know, what other ways
besides a 100$ reward for bringing an extra man into the class are there to
make sure, that everyone, incl. the women, gets their money's worth at those
workshops ?
Astrid
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:47:19 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: What price tango?
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
> I think that rather what may be worth considering,
> is this: there have been
> a number of classes, courses, workshops, even
> milongas, where I have felt
> like asking to have my money back, almost.
I don't blame you a bit, Astrid. Why should you pay
and get nothing in return?
> Gavito's way of
> dealing with this was to say at the start of the
> class:"Please change
> sometimes." And then he proceeded with the class,
> without ever paying
> attention to whether any men of the actually changed
> partners.
He did the same thing in the classes I took from him,
but he didn't ignore me. I simply refuesed to comply.
I, too, won't pay for something I don't want.
When I pay the premium cost of a workshop, I dance
exclusively with my girlfriend. I'm looking for the
most benefit and pleasure out of the workshop and so
is my partner. We work together.
> So, rather than asking for a lawsuit, I would like
> to know, what other ways
> besides a 100$ reward for bringing an extra man into
> the class are there to
> make sure, that everyone, incl. the women, gets
> their money's worth at those
> workshops ?
Couples-only workshops. Then everybody knows exactly
what they're getting. Work out the partnerships
beforehand instead of hanging hopes on a gamble.
Rotation is fine for beginner classes when no one
knows anybody else yet. Intermediate students ought
to be enterprising enough to find willing partners.
That should include everyone who is likely to go to
the expense of attending a workshop.
And what if you still can't line up a partner? Well,
that sucks, but better to know that before you've
plunked down the bread only to find no one in
attendance is available to dance.
I recently attended some couples-only workshops taught
by Susana Miller. Everyone seemed content, and the
learning environment was simultaneously serious and
serene.
Jai
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:54:56 +0000
From: Daisy Gardiner <tawny_port@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What price tango?
I stand corrected. An attorney on the list wrote to me privately to let me
know that it is perfectly legal for a promoter to discriminate based on
gender, race, sexual orientation, nationality, etc.
The responses that have been posted to date support the notion that the end
justifies the means, a dangerous if not politically popular solution. I
would suggest that there are other ways to address gender imbalance that do
not create a price differential.
First off, I think that a "finders fee" is a reasonable, whether it's a man
or a woman who "finds" the person needed to balance gender. The "finders
fee" could even be offered to a finder who is not a participant.
Second, I would suggest that Daniel Trenner handled gender imbalance
extremely well in Montreal several years ago. All participants paid the
same fee. Then, with the assistance of the Montreal tango community,
"stand-in dancers," from Montreal, both male and female sat in the lobby as
reserves. The "reserves" were intermediate to advanced dancers, and paid no
fee. Every time classes switched, a tally was taken of how many men or women
were needed in a given room. This worked extremely well.
Third, there's the "cruise ship" model that might be tried. Cruise ships
routinely take on male dance partners to dance with single ladies. If a
promoter used this model, then, after registration was closed and a
reckoning of gender imbalance made, extra men (presuming a shortfall of men)
would be recruited. These men would have to have a certain level of dance
expertise (no beginners) and would have to agree to participate in all
classes and to be available to the women without partners at the milongas in
exchange for waiving or reducing the fee.
Price discrimination is inequitable. In my view, the end does not justify
the means. I, for one, would not support any promoter who saw fit to
address the gender imbalance by charging one gender more than another.
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:46:13 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What price tango?
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 18:16:05 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: What price tango?
To further elaborate on the "cruise ship" model.
I recently completed a round trip crossing as a dance host
(New York-Southampton [that's England, not New York]
back to New York) on the QE2.
Before you can become a dance host, the men have
to dance with a professional teacher, chosen by
the recruiting company. The teacher sends a written
evaluation on fox trot, waltz, swing, cha cha,
and rumba. Some of the criteria are axis, frame,
posture, and balance. The evaluation is sent to
the company. The man submits an application form,
goes for a personal interview, and pays for a
background check. I suggest that promoters validate
a man's dancing skills before offering this arrangement.
On board the QE2, we (the hosts) were prominently
identified. Favoritism WASN'T permitted and it could
get you thrown out of the program if you practiced it.
My only regret was NO ARGENTINE TANGO for 12 days at sea.
Michael
Washington, DC
Glad to be back on land dancing argentine tango
---------- Daisy Gardiner <tawny_port@HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
Cruise ships routinely take on male dance partners to
dance with single ladies. If a promoter used this model,
then, after registration was closed and a reckoning
of gender imbalance made, extra men (presuming a
shortfall of men) would be recruited. These men would
have to have a certain level of dance expertise
(no beginners) and would have to agree to participate
in all classes and to be available to the women
without partners at the milongas in exchange for
waiving or reducing the fee.
I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:02:21 -0400
From: Studio Tango Montreal <stutango@TOTAL.NET>
Subject: Re: (TANGO-L) What price tango?
Here, at studio TANGO montreal we have found a way to deal with the issue of gender balance.
Firstly, all our regular classes and workshop classes are gender balanced, so we insist that all those interested register in advance. We =
go on a first come first serve basis as we are very strict about the maximum number of participants that we allow. Aproxiamately 50% of the =
students register with a partner, and the other 50% is made up of single men and women.
All participants whether they have registered alone or with a "partner" are asked to change partners frequently during a said class. This =
partner changing policy has proven benefitial to both leaders and followers of either pre-formed couples and registered singles alike.They =
all quickly come to realise that they become better leaders or followers due to the partner changing. Also, to pair someone off permantly to =
someone they do not know, could be a delicate business , and a risk that we would rather not take. Ofcourse it is easy to see that a "single" =
leader or follower may not get along well with a particular partner, but the potential unpleasantness is limited to only a couple of tangos. =
But, surprising more than one would expect, we call our partner changes so that the registered "couples" get a break. Far too often people who =
know each other well tend to put a wee bit too much pressure on their loved ones causing feelings of insecurity and a lack of confidence.
In regards specifically to our regular classes,
should a particular class not be already full at the beginning of a session, and should there be a single woman (or man) interested in =
taking the class,we will ask a student who has already completed the level if they wish to repeat that level (for the complete 10 week =
session) as an "extra" free of charge. We, generally as a rule, have 0 to a maximum of 2 or 3 extras per class.
We also sometimes call upon "occasional extras" to come in to a class should we know a head of time that someone is to miss on a particular =
day. We ask all our students to try to let us know if they foresee that they will need to be absent so that we can continue to balance the class =
during the session. Should due to a snowstorm, or flubug we have an unbalanced number of leaders and followers, we rotate : if we have more =
men than women, each leader takes a break for two tangos.
In regards to intermediate/advanced workshop classes that we organise for invited guest teachers: We do not let in "extras" for free or for =
reduced amounts, nor do we give bonuses to people who bring a partner. Every one is equal.If our teachers are available they fill in as either =
leaders or followers depending on the need. Sometimes we ask friends within in the tango community who are low on income if they want to fill =
in (a sort of scholarship). But that's it. We surprisingly generally have the same number of men as women who register. Usually if there is =
an inbalance it is because there are more men than women.We tell the last singles on the list, should the class not be balancing, that =
unfortunately they won't get in unless they know of someone who would like to register with them.
Our experience is that everyone should be treated equally. We do not believe in creating precedents where either men or women believe that =
they don't need to register, that someone will eventually call them to fill in for free or for a reduced rate. Why should a woman pay for the =
class, and a man get to take the same class for free ? Someone writing to the list cited as an example how smoothly things had gone during a =
Montreal festival, with the number of "extras" waiting in the lobby to do classes should they be needed. Yes, well I guess that it worked out =
well in the end, but frankly I felt some were taking advantage of a "freebie" situation. It just didn't seem right to me, that so many =
people, (and most of them not at all in financial need) were benefiting from all those free classes. Sometimes there seemed to be as many =
"extras" as paying students. It was following that event that we decided here at studio TANGO that as a general policy we would not have =
non paying "extras" in workshop classes, and we've had few problems genderbalancing classes since.
studio TANGO montreal
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:07:32 -0400
From: Studio Tango Montreal <stutango@TOTAL.NET>
Subject: Re: (TANGO-L) What price tango?
Here, at studio TANGO montreal we have found a way to deal with the issue of
gender balance.
Firstly, all our regular classes and workshop classes are gender balanced,
so we insist that all those interested register in advance. We go on a first
come first serve basis as we are very strict about the maximum number of
participants that we allow. Aproxiamately 50% of the students register with
a partner, and the other 50% is made up of single men and women.
All participants whether they have registered alone or with a "partner" are
asked to change partners frequently during a said class. This partner
changing policy has proven benefitial to both leaders and followers of
either pre-formed couples and registered singles alike.They all quickly come
to realise that they become better leaders or followers due to the partner
changing. Also, to pair someone off permantly to someone they do not know,
could be a delicate business , and a risk that we would rather not take.
Ofcourse it is easy to see that a "single" leader or follower may not get
along well with a particular partner, but the potential unpleasantness is
limited to only a couple of tangos. But, surprising more than one would
expect, we call our partner changes so that the registered "couples" get a
break. Far too often people who know each other well tend to put a wee bit
too much pressure on their loved ones causing feelings of insecurity and a
lack of confidence.
In regards specifically to our regular classes,
should a particular class not be already full at the beginning of a session,
and should there be a single woman (or man) interested in taking the
class,we will ask a student who has already completed the level if they wish
to repeat that level (for the complete 10 week session) as an "extra" free
of charge. We, generally as a rule, have 0 to a maximum of 2 or 3 extras
per class.
We also sometimes call upon "occasional extras" to come in to a class should
we know a head of time that someone is to miss on a particular day. We ask
all our students to try to let us know if they foresee that they will need
to be absent so that we can continue to balance the class during the
session. Should due to a snowstorm, or flubug we have an unbalanced number
of leaders and followers, we rotate : if we have more men than women, each
leader takes a break for two tangos.
In regards to intermediate/advanced workshop classes that we organise for
invited guest teachers: We do not let in "extras" for free or for reduced
amounts, nor do we give bonuses to people who bring a partner. Every one is
equal.If our teachers are available they fill in as either leaders or
followers depending on the need. Sometimes we ask friends within in the
tango community who are low on income if they want to fill in (a sort of
scholarship). But that's it. We surprisingly generally have the same
number of men as women who register. Usually if there is an inbalance it is
because there are more men than women.We tell the last singles on the list,
should the class not be balancing, that unfortunately they won't get in
unless they know of someone who would like to register with them.
Our experience is that everyone should be treated equally. We do not
believe in creating precedents where either men or women believe that they
don't need to register, that someone will eventually call them to fill in
for free or for a reduced rate. Why should a woman pay for the class, and a
man get to take the same class for free ? Someone writing to the list cited
as an example how smoothly things had gone during a Montreal festival, with
the number of "extras" waiting in the lobby to do classes should they be
needed. Yes, well I guess that it worked out well in the end, but frankly I
felt some were taking advantage of a "freebie" situation. It just didn't
seem right to me, that so many people, (and most of them not at all in
financial need) were benefiting from all those free classes. Sometimes
there seemed to be as many "extras" as paying students. It was following
that event that we decided here at studio TANGO that as a general policy we
would not have non paying "extras" in workshop classes, and we've had few
problems genderbalancing classes since.
studio TANGO montreal
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:58:13 -0700
From: Luda Requadt <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: What price tango?
Georgia Littleton <glit10go@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>I'll bet I'll catch a lot of heat if I suggest that
it would be appropriate, not only for men to enter
discounted (or even free) into events that women
pay full price for, but for men's dancing to be valued
so highly that they be directly compensated by their
female partners. That ought to sound very unsavory,
no?
>Oh wait... the name for that is "lessons"!
;-)
Georgia, taking lessons from a man is a different
story entirely, and you know it. Men take lessons from
women and pay for that, too. However, you do raise
some interesting questions about this whole issue.
For instance, why do you think there's a shortage of
men for certain tango events? Or is it all events? If
not all events, then what kind of events, and in what
parts of the country (or the world, for that matter)?
When you suggest women pay men to dance with them,
would the men do so as well, for the same privilege
(as they did in the "Ten Cents a Dance" days)? Or do
you consider the dancing of tangueras to be less
"valuable" than that of tangueros, and why?
By the way, do men get a "discount" on their drinks in
bars during Ladies' Nights if they bring a lady that
evening? ;-)
Luda
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:44:27 +0200
From: "Gabriella C. Marino" <gcmarino@IOL.IT>
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] What price tango?
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