2367 When to transfer the weight
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 21:22:05 +0200
From: Daniel Käsmayr <daniel@KAESMAYR.NET>
Subject: When to transfer the weight
Michael wrote:
> If you lead a crossing step, just like any other step, it should be
> lead
> so that your follower doesn't transfer her weight until you do. If you
> lead a forward cross and keep your weight on your left foot, your
> follower should wait; wait; wait; wait......until you either lead her
> to
> continue, or change her weight, and continue.
Do you lead and expect your partner to transfer her weight when you do
or do you lead, wait for her to move and then also transfer your
weight? Doesn't the latter create a) more harmony and b) more
possibilities? You as the leader are the one who "knows" what is coming
next, at least what you intended. Therefore you are the one who needs
to react to your partner following your lead - without this you would
be surprised when your lead is being changed, not understood or
rejected by your partner and you would walk all over her.
I do agree that your follower should wait until you lead her into
movement (as long as you are not inviting her to initiate by herself).
Daniel
(Munich, Germany)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 19:25:24 +0200
From: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
Michael: I agree with you here, like any weight change, this one should be
led - usually. Sometimes, however, I find myself loosely leading the cross,
accompanying the woman instead of controlling. Not the "real thing" for me,
though.
Daniel: It seems you regard your frame and that of the woman as two seperate
systems. I don4t, and I believe they should indeed merge through the
connection you create in the embrace. Therefore there is no time lag between lead
and follow, the feedback is instanteous. But then again, I prefer the close
embrace, your mileage may vary.
cheers,
Andreas
> Michael wrote:
> > If you lead a crossing step, just like any other step, it should be
> > lead
> Daniel wrote:
> Do you lead and expect your partner to transfer her weight when you do
> or do you lead, wait for her to move and then also transfer your
> weight? Doesn't the latter create a) more harmony and b) more
> possibilities? You as the leader are the one who "knows" what is coming
> next, at least what you intended. Therefore you are the one who needs
> to react to your partner following your lead - without this you would
> be surprised when your lead is being changed, not understood or
> rejected by your partner and you would walk all over her.
>
--
NEU : GMX Internet.FreeDSL
Ab sofort DSL-Tarif ohne Grundgeb|hr: https://www.gmx.net/info
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:09:09 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
Daniel Käsmayr wrote:
> Do you lead and expect your partner to transfer her weight when you do
> or do you lead, wait for her to move and then also transfer your
> weight?
Both.
The leader should *coninuously* be monitoring if the connection
is still functioning (which means, amongst others, that you don't
just blindly "do" a step *assuming* the follower is following, you do
"wait for her" to move, although I'd rather say you check whether
she's moving than wait: after all, you *are* the leader, and she *is*
suposed to follow ;) ).
On the other hand -- if you haven't completed the step and transferred
weight, and the follower has while you didn't *purposefully* loosen the
connection to enable this, there's something wrong with your
connection, either because of the leader or the follower (or both).
--
Alexis Cousein Senior Systems Engineer
Silicon Graphics/SGI Belgium & Luxemburg
--
If I can see further, it is by standing on reference manuals.
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:45:39 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
I notice that all of these leaders have an opinion
about when is the proper time for a follower to cross,
change weight.
A simple answer, and the opinion of a follower is: I
change weight/cross when I am lead to do so. I have no
preconcieved notions about what you are going to do,
so I do what you lead.
The reason I bring this up is that the debate has been
focused around how to accomplish the lead, lean this
weight, shift your weight, shift her weight without
shifting yours, take an extra step, lift, pivot and
lower.....
As long as the technique you use accomplishes the lead
you were after, you are successful. Actually even if
it accomplishes something else and you are happy with
that you are successful. So really there is no debate
at all, only you telling me what you like and me
telling you what I like. And each person will have a
different opinion about that.
Every leader is different and each follower will
respond slighly differently to each leader. That is
what makes us unique. So the question shouldn't be
how to lead a weight change or a cross, it should be
why? Why do you lead it?
Is this an essoteric question? Yes. The next time you
dance, consider it. Why are you dancing with this
person? Why are you dancing to this music?
Because tango isn't about steps. The more you focus
on your steps the farther away you are from dancing
tango.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:01:44 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
"The more you focus on your steps, the farther away you are from dancing
tango."
Another beautiful gem, Rose. Thank you.
:-)
J
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:11:03 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
In a message dated 07/04/2004 21:48:19 GMT Daylight Time,
dilettante666@YAHOO.COM writes:
> I notice that all of these leaders have an opinion
> about when is the proper time for a follower to cross,
> change weight.
>
> A simple answer, and the opinion of a follower is: I
> change weight/cross when I am lead to do so. I have no
> preconcieved notions about what you are going to do,
> so I do what you lead.
>
> The reason I bring this up is that the debate has been
> focused around how to accomplish the lead, lean this
> weight, shift your weight, shift her weight without
> shifting yours, take an extra step, lift, pivot and
> lower.....
>
> As long as the technique you use accomplishes the lead
> you were after, you are successful. Actually even if
> it accomplishes something else and you are happy with
> that you are successful. So really there is no debate
> at all, only you telling me what you like and me
> telling you what I like. And each person will have a
> different opinion about that.
>
> Every leader is different and each follower will
> respond slighly differently to each leader. That is
> what makes us unique. So the question shouldn't be
> how to lead a weight change or a cross, it should be
> why? Why do you lead it?
>
> Is this an essoteric question? Yes. The next time you
> dance, consider it. Why are you dancing with this
> person? Why are you dancing to this music?
>
> Because tango isn't about steps. The more you focus
> on your steps the farther away you are from dancing
> tango.
>
> Regards,
> Rose
> Portland, OR
At the extremes, the question "Why" can be answered as "because it feels
right at the time" or "because I want the lady to have her right foot free and
positioned so that I can lead her backwards, forwards, sideways, swivel, or
nowhere - or invite her to do her own thing". Both are valid answers in different
situations.
The claim that "the more you focus on your steps the farther you are away
from dancing tango" is also valid. However, that is for dancing. Despite this,
people have to learn at some time. The logic and analysis comes in only because
people must be taught something. In my view, that something should be basics
(weight, balance, embrace, sensing where the lady is, etc.), rather than only
steps.
So, you can forget the analysis when you are dancing. You really need it,
though, when you are learning - at whatever level.
I think that I sense a difference between men and women in the discussion of
this question. Men are more interested in this because they have to work out,
or be taught, how to lead. My own partner, Jan, who is a good teacher and can
lead shows this whenever we go to a session with one of the Argentinian
maestros and she dances with him. I always ask "What did he do?". Her reply is
invariably "I don't know, but it was wonderful" !!
Best wishes
Laurie
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:17:03 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
In a message dated 07/04/2004 21:15:55 GMT Daylight Time, al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM
writes:
> Daniel Käsmayr wrote:
>
>
> >Do you lead and expect your partner to transfer her weight when you do
> >or do you lead, wait for her to move and then also transfer your
> >weight?
>
> Both.
>
> The leader should *coninuously* be monitoring if the connection
> is still functioning (which means, amongst others, that you don't
> just blindly "do" a step *assuming* the follower is following, you do
> "wait for her" to move, although I'd rather say you check whether
> she's moving than wait: after all, you *are* the leader, and she *is*
> suposed to follow ;) ).
>
> On the other hand -- if you haven't completed the step and transferred
> weight, and the follower has while you didn't *purposefully* loosen the
> connection to enable this, there's something wrong with your
> connection, either because of the leader or the follower (or both).
>
> --
> Alexis Cousein Senior Systems Engineer
Gavito (and probably others) expresses it well:
The man indicates - the lady leads - the man follows
Lauriee
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:56:13 +0200
From: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight/razor girl
Razor Girl wrote:
>
> A simple answer, and the opinion of a follower is: I
> change weight/cross when I am lead to do so. I have no
> preconcieved notions about what you are going to do,
> so I do what you lead.
>
You hit the nail on the head. What you say describes *following* the lead
instead of *interpreting* the lead. I prefer followers, myself. ;-)
Cheers,
Andreas
--
NEU : GMX Internet.FreeDSL
Ab sofort DSL-Tarif ohne Grundgeb|hr: https://www.gmx.net/info
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 06:21:11 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight/razor girl
I, too, agree with the point made by Razor Girl and by Andreas. One of the
main charms of Tango is that there should be no preconceived notions.
However, the reason why there has been this extensive discussion on the group
is that many men, especially less experienced leaders, are not entirely sure
of what they need to do to give the sort of lead that Razor Girl would like.
Indeed, many of the more experienced leaders (myself included) may at also at
times not be aware of what it is that they do to give a clear, if subtle, lead.
The sorts of analyses which have underlain much of the discussion are needed
only so that we can attempt to communicate what it is that we do which appears
to work.
When we are face to face, we can show. When we are thousands of miles apart
on the Net, we have to use words. The subtleties of Tango are such that it is
difficult to find the right words to communicate slight body movements and
feelings. That is presumably why we have taken so much time over the issue.
Abrazos a todos
Laurie
In a message dated 08/04/2004 09:57:32 GMT Daylight Time,
Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET writes:
> Razor Girl wrote:
> >
> >A simple answer, and the opinion of a follower is: I
> >change weight/cross when I am lead to do so. I have no
> >preconcieved notions about what you are going to do,
> >so I do what you lead.
> >
>
> You hit the nail on the head. What you say describes *following* the lead
> instead of *interpreting* the lead. I prefer followers, myself. ;-)
> Cheers,
> Andreas
>
>
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:29:43 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
--- LGMoseley@AOL.COM wrote:
> The logic and
> analysis comes in only because
> people must be taught something. In my view, that
> something should be basics
> (weight, balance, embrace, sensing where the lady
> is, etc.), rather than only
> steps.
>
> So, you can forget the analysis when you are
> dancing. You really need it,
> though, when you are learning - at whatever level.
>
> I think that I sense a difference between men and
> women in the discussion of
> this question. Men are more interested in this
> because they have to work out,
> or be taught, how to lead.
Laurie,
Okay. But I don't think you understand the point I
was trying to make.
Dancing tango is like making love. You argue that men
have to be taught to lead. But what I am saying is
that what is lacking in this discussion is
consideration of why men lead. Where does it come
from inside of them. You can analyse movement all you
want. You can share your technique with others, you
can give each other tips about what works and what
doesn't work. But what I am saying is that every
person is going to have their own preference. The way
one person leads a cross with one particular follower
may work for that leader and follower. But when I am
dancing with that leader I want to be making love to
him. I want to feel what's inside him, what makes him
want to dance with me, what makes him want to dance to
this music in this moment in this way.
I don't disagree with you that practicing technique is
important, and that learning from experienced teachers
and discussing things such as how to place your feet
on the floor, and how to move your torso or your hips
etc is all important.
But when leaders learn to make love to their followers
that is when the magic happens. Miles and miles of
experience on the dance floor can bring you good
floorcraft, balance, technique etc...but you can have
the feeling from the very first day.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 20:05:35 +0200
From: Daniel Käsmayr <daniel@KAESMAYR.NET>
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
Andreas wrote:
> Daniel: It seems you regard your frame and that of the woman as two
> seperate
> systems. I don4t, and I believe they should indeed merge through the
> connection you create in the embrace. Therefore there is no time lag
> between lead
> and follow, the feedback is instanteous. But then again, I prefer the
> close
> embrace, your mileage may vary.
Even in close embrace the two centers of gravity need not be completely
linked - so there can be a weight change for one of the partners
without a change of weight in the other. There still is one frame, four
legs and three centers (including the couple's center). In open embrace
both systems can be much more independent even though there still is
connection. This needs to be for adornments like double steps or just a
foot change to happen. (Every foot change is indeed a weight change -
you would drop like a rock if it were not.)
And yes, if you think of the whole instead of two dancers your body
movement that does not need a weight change in your body creates a
weight change in the couple's body... It seems to me this is all a
matter of perspective.
My point regarding harmony was: if you just walk, in either embrace,
and step when she does compared to have her step when you do the first
creates harmony, the latter is a bit forced (but can be harmonious as
well). Just the fact that you wait for your partner and thus create the
possibility for her initiative or modulation of your lead makes things
different.
Alexis wrote
> The leader should *coninuously* be monitoring if the connection
> is still functioning (which means, amongst others, that you don't
> just blindly "do" a step *assuming* the follower is following, you do
> "wait for her" to move, although I'd rather say you check whether
> she's moving than wait: after all, you *are* the leader, and she *is*
> suposed to follow ;) ).
Yes, indeed, monitoring would be a way to describe it :) And as we all
know there should not be an "assume" anywhere <g>
I don't agree with the extra-traditional roles of leader & follower as
long as there is no dialogue and leading becomes forcing...
> On the other hand -- if you haven't completed the step and transferred
> weight, and the follower has while you didn't *purposefully* loosen
> the=20
> connection to enable this, there's something wrong with your
> connection, either because of the leader or the follower (or both).
Sigh, some followers don't seem to like the concept of e.g. extra slow
steps, especially the cross. Many beginners realize the beginnings of a
lead for a cross and just ram their legs together - not waiting for
anything, ready to run into the next step. "Yes, I understood he wants
a cross, and boy, I can cross faaast."
Daniel
--
Daniel Käsmayr
Wachtelweg 32
85757 Karlsfeld
0179 2241565 (mobil)
089 25004915 (labor)
08131 999427 (daheim)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:02:14 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
In a message dated 08/04/2004 18:31:00 GMT Daylight Time,
dilettante666@YAHOO.COM writes:
> Dancing tango is like making love. You argue that men
> have to be taught to lead. But what I am saying is
> that what is lacking in this discussion is
> consideration of why men lead. Where does it come
> from inside of them. You can analyse movement all you
> want. You can share your technique with others, you
> can give each other tips about what works and what
> doesn't work. But what I am saying is that every
> person is going to have their own preference. The way
> one person leads a cross with one particular follower
> may work for that leader and follower. But when I am
> dancing with that leader I want to be making love to
> him. I want to feel what's inside him, what makes him
> want to dance with me, what makes him want to dance to
> this music in this moment in this way.
>
> I don't disagree with you that practicing technique is
> important, and that learning from experienced teachers
> and discussing things such as how to place your feet
> on the floor, and how to move your torso or your hips
> etc is all important.
>
> But when leaders learn to make love to their followers
> that is when the magic happens. Miles and miles of
> experience on the dance floor can bring you good
> floorcraft, balance, technique etc...but you can have
> the feeling from the very first day.
>
> Regards,
> Rose
> Portland, OR
>
I agree in one respect - dancing Tango well with the right partner IS like
making love. That is one of the reasons why it is so addictive ! Some people
make love well, some badly. It is the same with Tango. You cannot teach feeling
- you experience it. You can teach technique. Once you have it, how you
express it varies with your partner and with the situation, music, and so on.
Without it though, love, like Tango would be a pale substitute for the real thing.
At the very least, feeling is no excuse for poor technique. There is another
difference. Making love is not a social activity, with other people around you
who will be adversely affected (yes, even in their feelings) if you screw up.
You must have come across those selfish or thoughtless dancers who pay no
attention to those around them.
It depends on which comes first. If you start with feeling on its own, your
chance of moving on to the profundities of Tango are limited. By contrast, if
you get the technique right, then all sorts of feelings can follow. The
situation is asymmetrical, especially over time.
I am not sure this is a topic which is open to rational discussion. Probably
feeling is not something that one can express adequately in words. If that is
so, why bother to try ? Once again, I suspect that many of the disagreements
on this group arise from the fact that some of us are trying, over a computer
network, to discuss things which are easier to show than to talk about. Perhaps
face-to-face we would all be in agreement.
Laurie
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:03:27 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
It occurs to me that, the same thing that can make a wonderful follower to
one lead can make a bad follower to another. The wonderful follower never
anticipates, and doesn't cross unless she's led. This can be delightful to
the good lead who really wants responsiveness, but annoying and frustrating
to the lead who expects a follower to "know her part." Leader 1: "She caught
everything I did and went wherever I asked." Leader 2: "She was always on
the wrong foot and didn't even know the simplest steps."
Lois, Minneapolis
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:21:40 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
>But when leaders learn to make love to their followers
that is when the magic happens. Miles and miles of
experience on the dance floor can bring you good
floorcraft, balance, technique etc...but you can have
the feeling from the very first day.<
My 2 cents:
Oops! I thought Tango was about seduction. One of the best male tango
dancers ever named El Civico was skilled in the art of seduction. Seduction
means persuading someone to make love or have sex (figuratively
speaking/dancing!).
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:22:21 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
In a message dated 08/04/2004 21:15:45 GMT Daylight Time, donnay@DONNAY.NET
writes:
> It occurs to me that, the same thing that can make a wonderful follower to
> one lead can make a bad follower to another. The wonderful follower never
> anticipates, and doesn't cross unless she's led. This can be delightful to
> the good lead who really wants responsiveness, but annoying and frustrating
> to the lead who expects a follower to "know her part." Leader 1: "She caught
> everything I did and went wherever I asked." Leader 2: "She was always on
> the wrong foot and didn't even know the simplest steps."
>
> Lois, Minneapolis
>
Good point, Lois. Of course the men who enjoy the wonderful followers are
called Tango dancers ! Without knowing it perhaps, leader 2 is criticizing
himself.
I always think that "you look wonderful when you are dancing" should not be
as satisfying a compliment to a man as "your partner looks wonderful when you
are dancing".
Abrazos
Laurie
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:51:29 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
Lois writes:
> The wonderful follower never anticipates, and doesn't
> cross unless she's led.
Here we go again. Whee!
As someone pointed out yesterday, and as has
been going around and around on this list for years,
there are at least two legitimate and authentic
widespread schools of thought on whether the cross
is automatic or not under certain circustances.
I really don't feel like taking sides, I've had
wonderful teachers from both schools, but I'm not
about to let either side get away with insisting
that their version is the only true tango.
Huck
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 12:10:17 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: When to transfer the weight
Laurie Mosely writes:
> dilettante666@YAHOO.COM (Rose from Portland) writes:
>
> > Dancing tango is like making love.
>
> I agree in one respect - dancing Tango well with the right
> partner IS like making love. That is one of the reasons why
> it is so addictive!
Do you ladies leave the dance floor breathing
very hard, almost wheezing, with a highly elevated
pulse rate, a red flush over much of your skin, and
soaking-wet panties?
No? Didn't think so.
Tango is very sweet, and tango is very addicting,
but tango is not like making love.
Huck, just teasing, don't get mad at me :-), actually
I agree that in both love and tango you just
seem to click with some people and not with
others, and there's usually little rhyme or
reason as to with whom you do or don't
