2816  women/men; followers/leaders

Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:05:02 -0500
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: women/men; followers/leaders

My practical 2-cents



Most of this talk about masculine-feminine is way off the mark. The two
main reasons women decide to learn to lead are, first, that there are
not enough leaders to go around, and women want to dance no matter what,
and second; they have learned to follow, and want a new challenge, and
see that challenge in learning to lead. A woman leading does not take on
"masculine" qualities, or even have to adapt any masculine tendencies to
be able to lead well.



On the other hand, a man who decides to follow does not take on any
"feminine" qualities. He will generally do this to become a better
leader, and to help out in beginner classes that are short of women.



Think about it; some of the best qualities in a "man" leader are not
necessarily "masculine". Most of my best dances are those where I adopt
a nurturing, tender, and caring attitude toward taking care of my
follower, much like the attitude of a mother to her child. And when a
woman leader takes a leader's position in front of her follower, I know
that her superior ability to transmit and feel these feelings can help
make her a great leader. Yes, the leader must be a little more
assertive, but most women can be very assertive without being
"masculine" (just go talk to my ex-wife!). But women get tired of the
supposed "passive" role of being a follower. I say "supposed" passive
role, because I really like an assertive follower; very strong, and
participating in our dance, not just going along for the ride.



And above all, learning the opposite role in this dance can be so
helpful in learning more about your own role. I like to follow, and I do
it quite often. I must admit I like following women better than men, but
in beginner classes I don't care; I'll follow to help out. And doing
this helps me to become a better leader.



It's not about masculine or feminine, or leading or following. It's
really all about wanting to grow in this artistic dance, and to explore
all of its myriad possibilities.



Regards,



Michael from Houston

Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:14:51 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: women/men; followers/leaders

Michael Figart's practical 2-cents:

> Most of this talk about masculine-feminine is way off the mark. The two
> main reasons women decide to learn to lead are, first, that there are
> not enough leaders to go around, and women want to dance no matter what,
> and second; they have learned to follow, and want a new challenge

Righto. I think, that's about what it comes down to.

I have followed this thread with a certain amount of interest, and felt
amazed, reading all these treatises, produced almost exclusively by males,
on what men and women are supposed to be like, by nature, by conditioning,
by tradition, by "energy" and so on, depending on their individual beliefs.
It seems like there are endless opportunities for controversy when it comes
to defining what is male and what is female. There are those who actively
promote what "real" men and women are supposed to be like, those who
advocate that "gender" only exists in people's imagination and get quite
irritated by it all, and then those who endlessly worry whether they are
"man enough", or whether they will still be a man if they do this, that, or
the other.
I believe, that one of the fascinations of tango is, that it quite clearly
defines what the man and the woman are supposed to be doing when they
interact. For once, we can just slip into the role of being a "leader" or a
"follower", move together in complete harmony, and stop squabbling. At least
for the length of a couple of songs. Isn't that nice?

; )
Astrid's two cents

P.S.:
By the way, Oscar Mandagaran can be one of the cutest, adorable "women" I
have seen on the dance floor, when he slips into that role, asks a man to
lead him, and demonstrates for the women how they are supposed to move. He
was not embarrassed at all, but the whole class was squealing with laughter
and delight.

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:36:54 +0200
From: B?IkVjc2VkeSDBcm9uIiA?= <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: women/men; followers/leaders

This subject (understandable) is a recurring theme on tango-l.

However, I strongly suggest to read appropriate literature before
entering any further discussion on gender subjects. According to my
experience, the difference between what's in head of people and what
scientists found as explanation are so far apart, that anyone who would
start to quote from a recent book on evolutionary psychology, gender
biology or ethology would be disemboweled, hanged, beheaded and cut to
four parts.

Oh yes - one more thing:
Ladies, just because a scientist (or poster) is male, he is not
necessarily lying or wrong.
In my experience, women tend to discard male opinion about women (if it
is concieved as negative) as biased. If you read some gender science
you'll find that there IS NO male science and female science. Those
naughty girls in this field made a pact with those guys!!! They talk
about similar things... They don't consider males talking about women as
unreliable source. (by the way: do you feel that you know everything
about yourself? Is this knowledge OBJECTIVE? If yes, how can you prove
that? If you have objective information from (or on) other women, then
why couldn't a male do that? Especially if this information is not about
your emotional life (your motivations or the way you concieve your
behaviour), but rather the way you behave. But even in the prior case,
do you believe that male scientists are writing down their own feelings
and guessing on female emotions? Do you truly believe, that just because
the scientist is male he is not going to have any female coworker (to
tell him he is wrong) in the research or he is going to falsify data?)

Cheers,
Aron

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:10:45 +0000
From: herve michel <herve_michel1@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: women/men; followers/leaders

it's funny ' disemboweled, hanged, beheaded and cut to
four parts' seem to be a recurring theme this week end...why woul;d this
gruesome act be incorporated into a g'gendered' discussion...Aron you are
sick person...you really must be either a congenital idiot or an FBI
person...

behavior is articulated within a framework of meanings. What do certain
things mean to certain people. That's the key to understanding. Some
'behaviors' can be acceptable in one setting and not in another. Aggressive
pusuit nearing 'stalking' could be accepteable and a sign of love in one
setting but something else...aron you are either an idiot or an fbi
personel...

herve



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>From: "Ecsedy Aron" <aron@MILONGA.HU>
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>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] women/men; followers/leaders
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>This subject (understandable) is a recurring theme on tango-l.
>
>However, I strongly suggest to read appropriate literature before
>entering any further discussion on gender subjects. According to my
>experience, the difference between what's in head of people and what
>scientists found as explanation are so far apart, that anyone who would
>start to quote from a recent book on evolutionary psychology, gender
>biology or ethology would be disemboweled, hanged, beheaded and cut to
>four parts.
>
>Oh yes - one more thing:
>Ladies, just because a scientist (or poster) is male, he is not
>necessarily lying or wrong.
>In my experience, women tend to discard male opinion about women (if it
>is concieved as negative) as biased. If you read some gender science
>you'll find that there IS NO male science and female science. Those
>naughty girls in this field made a pact with those guys!!! They talk
>about similar things... They don't consider males talking about women as
>unreliable source. (by the way: do you feel that you know everything
>about yourself? Is this knowledge OBJECTIVE? If yes, how can you prove
>that? If you have objective information from (or on) other women, then
>why couldn't a male do that? Especially if this information is not about
>your emotional life (your motivations or the way you concieve your
>behaviour), but rather the way you behave. But even in the prior case,
>do you believe that male scientists are writing down their own feelings
>and guessing on female emotions? Do you truly believe, that just because
>the scientist is male he is not going to have any female coworker (to
>tell him he is wrong) in the research or he is going to falsify data?)
>
>Cheers,
>Aron
>