3522 Wrong analogy [was Incomplete Education]
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:29:21 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Wrong analogy [was Incomplete Education]
Steve drew analogy between learning tango and jazz. The analogy is wrong.
While pattern dancing is not musical indeed the last two styles do have the
skills for self-expression to their specific varieties of music.
Dance improvisation with paterns does not fit melody very well (you need to
know _all_ tangos and all your patterns very well to be able to attempt
somethimng like this, not on social floor of course).
The comment on mlonguero "noodling" is misunderstanding. Milonguero style is
well structured (composed, styled) by melody and therefore is not haphazard
really (it is true that milongueros do not ignore rhythm, yet it is an urban
legend that milongueros ignore melody, in fact the workshop I am going to
teach next month will be dedicated entirely to giving dancers the tools for
expressing rhythm _and_ melody).
Nuevo dancers can be rhythmic when they dance to "nuevo" music (with few
syncopations).
Cheers, Oleh K., El Ucraniano
https://TangoSpring.com
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Incomplete Education [was conflicting tango styles]
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:59:53 -0500
From: el turco <shusheta@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Wrong analogy [was Incomplete Education]
Oleh wrote
>
> Dance improvisation with paterns does not fit melody very well (you need to
> know _all_ tangos and all your patterns very well to be able to attempt
> somethimng like this, not on social floor of course).
>
There are around 200 famous tango songs which almost every traditional
milonga playlist on the planet with some exceptions, suitability of
the songs for dancing, and favorites etc. are the some of the major
parameters, or who you bought the music CDs in BsAs from DJs :) After
awhile everybody can learn these 200 most famous milonga playlist
tracks, imagine milongueros have been listening the same music over 40
years, million times maybe?Thus, they are dancing now musically good,
they might not have been dancing before as good as now?
This is the informal part of tango training, which is invaluble,
however if you are not living in BsAs this is subjective.
To compare today's tango dancers to milongueros is illogical. The
comparison should be between tango dancers who's been learning tango
in BsAs,or anywhere else on the planet. You can compare a leader with
4year exp. with a leader from BsAs with similar years experienced
person.
Oleh wrote:
The comment on mlonguero "noodling" is misunderstanding. Milonguero style is
> well structured (composed, styled) by melody and therefore is not haphazard
> really (it is true that milongueros do not ignore rhythm, yet it is an urban
> legend that milongueros ignore melody, in fact the workshop I am going to
> teach next month will be dedicated entirely to giving dancers the tools for
> expressing rhythm _and_ melody).
After 40 years any style in tango would be fantastically awesome, and
beautiful, so we should ask someone who styled his dance 40 years ago.
I'm not even talking about any women because milonguero style is too
much sexist. This style didn't allow women to create their
-independence-dance style over 40 years, nowadays thanks to Close
Embrace style teachers mostly in North America and few in Europe, this
is about to change.
Also, Oleh wrote;
> Nuevo dancers can be rhythmic when they dance to "nuevo" music (with few
> syncopations).
>
Sorry, but as far as i know that you are not a nuevo dancer, how can
you decide-evaluate nuevo dancer's musicality? (tango nuevo analyses
on social dance floor require-desires advanced musicality, navigation
and improvisational skills from both leader and follower.Tango nuevo
is liberal tango, and offers personal freedom to follower more than
other styles)
moreover, please don't over generalize your assumptions, every
individual has their own personality and style in tango world like
each GOOD milonguero used to have one four decades ago.
( don't forget that tango nuevo is simply a CHOICE, respect others)
Bests,
Burak
Minneapolis
www.tangoshusheta.com/gallery.html
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 02:37:06 +0200
From: hotmail <Peter_Jouliard@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Wrong analogy [was Incomplete Education]
" The comparison should be between tango dancers who's been learning tango
in BsAs,or anywhere else on the planet. You can compare a leader with
4year exp. with a leader from BsAs with similar years experienced
person."
What would that be good for?
And how would you select the persons you compare?
"I'm not even talking about any women because milonguero style is too
much sexist."
What is sexist about milonguero style?
And what is your opinion of women who like to dance
milonguero style?
peter jouliard
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:57:08 -0700
From: sean <milos-gloriosus@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Incomplete Education
Stephan Brown said:
"There are three principal methods for teaching Argentine tango: step
patterns, small elements, structural systems
In learning to play jazz music, there are analogous pedagogical
concepts:
step patterns = memorized pieces of music
small elements = short phrases
structural systems = scales and chord progressions
No one learning to play jazz would even expect to develop sufficient
skill
in playing jazz by learning only to play memorized pieces of music,
short
phrases or scales and chord progressions. They learn all three.
To over-generalize, step patterns are most frequently used to teach
salon-
and fantasia-style tango; small elements are most frequently used to
teach
milonguero-style tango, and a structural system is most frequently used
to
teach nuevo-style tango.
Of course with persistent work, some individuals will break through the
limitations of the method by which they learned tango, but it is much
easier to actually learn by pursuing all three methods of instruction."
End Quote
I've come across crossing and parallel paths between Jazz and Tango
before. Usually it's around improvisation. But Stephan's statement
points out another place that the two forms come together. That is in
learning and practicing. Below I have taken the liberty to minimally
paraphrase Wynton Marsalis' 12 rules of Practice which he developed for
young people as a guide to learning musical instruments. I first heard
it while watching a PBS documentary many years ago.
Wynton Marsalis’12 rules of practice
1. seek professional instruction (He means privates)
2. make a schedule, and keep it (Not just when you "gotta dance")
3. concentrate while practicing, take breaks when you cannot. (a good
artist knows when to quit.)
4. set goals. ( I just want to be good, ain't enough)
5. practice slowly and relax
6. practice hard parts longer
7. dance with expression.
8. learn from your mistakes.
9. don’t show off. (don’t dance for others)
10. think for yourself.
11. be optimistic.
12. look for connections.
Sean
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:12:15 -0400
From: "Steininger, Francine" <FSteininger@IIE.ORG>
Subject: Re: Incomplete Education
Interesting.... many of those 12 guidelines could apply to life too !
:-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango on behalf of sean
Sent: Mon 6/20/2005 7:57 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Incomplete Education
Stephan Brown said:
"There are three principal methods for teaching Argentine tango: step
patterns, small elements, structural systems
In learning to play jazz music, there are analogous pedagogical
concepts:
step patterns = memorized pieces of music
small elements = short phrases
structural systems = scales and chord progressions
No one learning to play jazz would even expect to develop sufficient
skill
in playing jazz by learning only to play memorized pieces of music,
short
phrases or scales and chord progressions. They learn all three.
To over-generalize, step patterns are most frequently used to teach
salon-
and fantasia-style tango; small elements are most frequently used to
teach
milonguero-style tango, and a structural system is most frequently used
to
teach nuevo-style tango.
Of course with persistent work, some individuals will break through the
limitations of the method by which they learned tango, but it is much
easier to actually learn by pursuing all three methods of instruction."
End Quote
I've come across crossing and parallel paths between Jazz and Tango
before. Usually it's around improvisation. But Stephan's statement
points out another place that the two forms come together. That is in
learning and practicing. Below I have taken the liberty to minimally
paraphrase Wynton Marsalis' 12 rules of Practice which he developed for
young people as a guide to learning musical instruments. I first heard
it while watching a PBS documentary many years ago.
Wynton Marsalis'12 rules of practice
1. seek professional instruction (He means privates)
2. make a schedule, and keep it (Not just when you "gotta dance")
3. concentrate while practicing, take breaks when you cannot. (a good
artist knows when to quit.)
4. set goals. ( I just want to be good, ain't enough)
5. practice slowly and relax
6. practice hard parts longer
7. dance with expression.
8. learn from your mistakes.
9. don't show off. (don't dance for others)
10. think for yourself.
11. be optimistic.
12. look for connections.
Sean
