4606 Discussion Topics
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:36:57 -0700
From: "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<183484970609221336m2f1c8a85q4add6d87bef451de@mail.gmail.com>
Hi All,
I have a few topics I wonder if anyone would find interesting to discuss
here on thango-l.
1. Has anyone found ways to reduce or eliminate gender imbalance in group
lessons, milongas, and or practicas. I know we have all been fortunate
enough to attend tango functions that just happened to magically have an
equal number of ladies and men and that is great, but when it doesn't work
out that way, does anyone have experience at fixing the problem, i.e.
getting more of the needed gender to attend. (Some ideas, not necessarily
good, are reduced cost for needed gender, requiring advanced sign up for
group lessons, restricting sign up to couples, giving Gender Admit Free
cards to one gender which they can freely pass on to anyone in the needed
gender.)
2. What ways have been found to be effective for retaining information
learned at lessons - i.e. video taping the lesson, taking written notes
either during a lesson or immediately afterwards, getting two or three
couples together to practice a particular aspect of the dance - say just to
practice molinete or ganchos
3. Suggestions for obtaining free legal slow music with a strong beat for
practicing. I certainly remember after my first group lesson in tango, I
had absolutely no idea where to get any music, had no idea if I would like
tango, and certainly didn't want to invest in ordering CDs of music I never
heard of for a dance I might not like. I went to the local CD store and
asked the teenager behind the counter if they had any Argentine Tango
music. She said 'What's tango?" Of course, once we get hooked on tango,
all this changes and we all know how and where to buy CDs, but how do you
get started.
4. Suggestions for exercises that are aimed at improving balance, posture,
flexibility? What non tango classes help with tango (i.e. maybe yoga,
ballet, pilates,...)
5. Discussion of the usefulness and ways of practicing alone. For example,
my practice floor in the garage consists of a four foot by eight foot board
I got at Home Depot for $6.00 and two 4 foot by 1 foot mirrors for $6.00
each. The two mirrors are hanging by a rope on one side of the garage, and
the board normally stands in front of them, but when I want to practice, I
lay the board down in the garage, smooth side up, and practice away. 4x8
feet is plenty of space to practice alone, or for one couple and the mirrors
really help with posture issues. I have found holding a broom upside down,
handle resting on the ground helps me see when I pull my would be partner
off axis. Try doing a molinete around an upside down broom, always rotating
chest towards broom, and not pulling the broom handle off vertical. (Of
course a real live follower is much more fun:-}} )
6. Tango injuries and remedies - such as knee pain, back pain, hip pain. Not
looking for medical information here, but practical suggestions for
preventing, determining the cause of, alleviating. For example, I have
heard ladies mention that they always take two ibuprofen when they wear
their favorite shoes to a milonga. Are there things they could do to
eliminate the need for the ibuprofen and still wear their favorite shoes -
posture, exercise, padding, oils, etc.?
Well, above are just a few of many tango related topics that would interest
me. If anyone else is interested in any of these, I would welcome their
thoughts.
Ed Doyle
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:36 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Ed Doyle wrote:
> 2. What ways have been found to be effective for retaining information
> learned at lessons - i.e. video taping the lesson, taking written notes
> either during a lesson or immediately afterwards
Ed, if the information is not retained on some form by the learner, then
it is not "information learned". It sounds like what your referring to is
instead information taught but not learnt. In which case you might find
what you need is not a way for the would-be learner to externally retain
that information, but a more effective teacher.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
*From:* "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
*To:* Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
*Date:* Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:36:57 -0700
Hi All,
I have a few topics I wonder if anyone would find interesting to discuss
here on thango-l.
1. Has anyone found ways to reduce or eliminate gender imbalance in group
lessons, milongas, and or practicas. I know we have all been fortunate
enough to attend tango functions that just happened to magically have an
equal number of ladies and men and that is great, but when it doesn't work
out that way, does anyone have experience at fixing the problem, i.e.
getting more of the needed gender to attend. (Some ideas, not necessarily
good, are reduced cost for needed gender, requiring advanced sign up for
group lessons, restricting sign up to couples, giving Gender Admit Free
cards to one gender which they can freely pass on to anyone in the needed
gender.)
2. What ways have been found to be effective for retaining information
learned at lessons - i.e. video taping the lesson, taking written notes
either during a lesson or immediately afterwards, getting two or three
couples together to practice a particular aspect of the dance - say just to
practice molinete or ganchos
3. Suggestions for obtaining free legal slow music with a strong beat for
practicing. I certainly remember after my first group lesson in tango, I
had absolutely no idea where to get any music, had no idea if I would like
tango, and certainly didn't want to invest in ordering CDs of music I never
heard of for a dance I might not like. I went to the local CD store and
asked the teenager behind the counter if they had any Argentine Tango
music. She said 'What's tango?" Of course, once we get hooked on tango,
all this changes and we all know how and where to buy CDs, but how do you
get started.
4. Suggestions for exercises that are aimed at improving balance, posture,
flexibility? What non tango classes help with tango (i.e. maybe yoga,
ballet, pilates,...)
5. Discussion of the usefulness and ways of practicing alone. For example,
my practice floor in the garage consists of a four foot by eight foot board
I got at Home Depot for $6.00 and two 4 foot by 1 foot mirrors for $6.00
each. The two mirrors are hanging by a rope on one side of the garage, and
the board normally stands in front of them, but when I want to practice, I
lay the board down in the garage, smooth side up, and practice away. 4x8
feet is plenty of space to practice alone, or for one couple and the mirrors
really help with posture issues. I have found holding a broom upside down,
handle resting on the ground helps me see when I pull my would be partner
off axis. Try doing a molinete around an upside down broom, always rotating
chest towards broom, and not pulling the broom handle off vertical. (Of
course a real live follower is much more fun:-}} )
6. Tango injuries and remedies - such as knee pain, back pain, hip pain. Not
looking for medical information here, but practical suggestions for
preventing, determining the cause of, alleviating. For example, I have
heard ladies mention that they always take two ibuprofen when they wear
their favorite shoes to a milonga. Are there things they could do to
eliminate the need for the ibuprofen and still wear their favorite shoes -
posture, exercise, padding, oils, etc.?
Well, above are just a few of many tango related topics that would interest
me. If anyone else is interested in any of these, I would welcome their
thoughts.
Ed Doyle
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:50 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Oops, s/what your referring to/what you're referring to/ ;)
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
*From:* "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
*CC:* tl2@chrisjj.com
*Date:* Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:36 +0100 (BST)
Ed Doyle wrote:
> 2. What ways have been found to be effective for retaining information
> learned at lessons - i.e. video taping the lesson, taking written notes
> either during a lesson or immediately afterwards
Ed, if the information is not retained on some form by the learner, then
it is not "information learned". It sounds like what your referring to is
instead information taught but not learnt. In which case you might find
what you need is not a way for the would-be learner to externally retain
that information, but a more effective teacher.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
*From:* "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
*To:* Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
*Date:* Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:36:57 -0700
Hi All,
I have a few topics I wonder if anyone would find interesting to discuss
here on thango-l.
1. Has anyone found ways to reduce or eliminate gender imbalance in group
lessons, milongas, and or practicas. I know we have all been fortunate
enough to attend tango functions that just happened to magically have an
equal number of ladies and men and that is great, but when it doesn't work
out that way, does anyone have experience at fixing the problem, i.e.
getting more of the needed gender to attend. (Some ideas, not necessarily
good, are reduced cost for needed gender, requiring advanced sign up for
group lessons, restricting sign up to couples, giving Gender Admit Free
cards to one gender which they can freely pass on to anyone in the needed
gender.)
2. What ways have been found to be effective for retaining information
learned at lessons - i.e. video taping the lesson, taking written notes
either during a lesson or immediately afterwards, getting two or three
couples together to practice a particular aspect of the dance - say just to
practice molinete or ganchos
3. Suggestions for obtaining free legal slow music with a strong beat for
practicing. I certainly remember after my first group lesson in tango, I
had absolutely no idea where to get any music, had no idea if I would like
tango, and certainly didn't want to invest in ordering CDs of music I never
heard of for a dance I might not like. I went to the local CD store and
asked the teenager behind the counter if they had any Argentine Tango
music. She said 'What's tango?" Of course, once we get hooked on tango,
all this changes and we all know how and where to buy CDs, but how do you
get started.
4. Suggestions for exercises that are aimed at improving balance, posture,
flexibility? What non tango classes help with tango (i.e. maybe yoga,
ballet, pilates,...)
5. Discussion of the usefulness and ways of practicing alone. For example,
my practice floor in the garage consists of a four foot by eight foot board
I got at Home Depot for $6.00 and two 4 foot by 1 foot mirrors for $6.00
each. The two mirrors are hanging by a rope on one side of the garage, and
the board normally stands in front of them, but when I want to practice, I
lay the board down in the garage, smooth side up, and practice away. 4x8
feet is plenty of space to practice alone, or for one couple and the mirrors
really help with posture issues. I have found holding a broom upside down,
handle resting on the ground helps me see when I pull my would be partner
off axis. Try doing a molinete around an upside down broom, always rotating
chest towards broom, and not pulling the broom handle off vertical. (Of
course a real live follower is much more fun:-}} )
6. Tango injuries and remedies - such as knee pain, back pain, hip pain. Not
looking for medical information here, but practical suggestions for
preventing, determining the cause of, alleviating. For example, I have
heard ladies mention that they always take two ibuprofen when they wear
their favorite shoes to a milonga. Are there things they could do to
eliminate the need for the ibuprofen and still wear their favorite shoes -
posture, exercise, padding, oils, etc.?
Well, above are just a few of many tango related topics that would interest
me. If anyone else is interested in any of these, I would welcome their
thoughts.
Ed Doyle
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:25:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
Given that one can only retain 5 +/-2 pieces of information
in short-term memory, Ed makes a quite reasonable comment
and his usage of the word "learned" is perfectly
understood.
In the interest of getting to the crux of Ed's comment,
instead of arguing semantics, I would say that the methods
Ed mentions are all useful and folks should be encouraged
to use whatever works for them. I write things down a lot
because it helps me remember things better (physical action
plus visual cues plus internalizing info). Videotaping is
helpful for remembering sequences, but notes are needed to
record details. I can look up written notes much faster
that scrolling through a video.
I have also found that discussing a workshop to others
afterwards helps me internalize things better and may
remind me of finer points that "float" somewhere in my
brain but aren't yet anchored. After major workshops we
host, we always hold workshop reviews to help people retain
the info. You might want to set up a private practice with
friends so that you can focus on particular material.
If you're going to take a major workshop weekend, I find it
useful to prep as much as one can on the topics BEFORE the
workshops. That way one is freer to explore questions and
can internalize the info better during the workshops.
In the beginning, I needed to record things sequentially (I
am a sequential learner), so I remembered things by who my
partner was or where I was in the room. I am the type that
writes everything down. Now, I just focus on the concepts
and just a few new pieces of information per class.
It might be interesting to hear what type of mnemonic
devices people use.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> Ed Doyle wrote:
>
> > 2. What ways have been found to be effective for
> retaining information
> > learned at lessons - i.e. video taping the lesson,
> taking written notes
> > either during a lesson or immediately afterwards
>
> Ed, if the information is not retained on some form by
> the learner, then
> it is not "information learned". It sounds like what your
> referring to is
> instead information taught but not learnt. In which case
> you might find
> what you need is not a way for the would-be learner to
> externally retain
> that information, but a more effective teacher.
>
> Chris
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> *Subject:* [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
> *From:* "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
> *To:* Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
> *Date:* Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:36:57 -0700
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have a few topics I wonder if anyone would find
> interesting to discuss
> here on thango-l.
>
> 1. Has anyone found ways to reduce or eliminate gender
> imbalance in group
> lessons, milongas, and or practicas. I know we have all
> been fortunate
> enough to attend tango functions that just happened to
> magically have an
> equal number of ladies and men and that is great, but
> when it doesn't work
> out that way, does anyone have experience at fixing the
> problem, i.e.
> getting more of the needed gender to attend. (Some ideas,
> not necessarily
> good, are reduced cost for needed gender, requiring
> advanced sign up for
> group lessons, restricting sign up to couples, giving
> Gender Admit Free
> cards to one gender which they can freely pass on to
> anyone in the needed
> gender.)
>
> 2. What ways have been found to be effective for
> retaining information
> learned at lessons - i.e. video taping the lesson, taking
> written notes
> either during a lesson or immediately afterwards, getting
> two or three
> couples together to practice a particular aspect of the
> dance - say just to
> practice molinete or ganchos
>
> 3. Suggestions for obtaining free legal slow music with a
> strong beat for
> practicing. I certainly remember after my first group
> lesson in tango, I
> had absolutely no idea where to get any music, had no
> idea if I would like
> tango, and certainly didn't want to invest in ordering
> CDs of music I never
> heard of for a dance I might not like. I went to the
> local CD store and
> asked the teenager behind the counter if they had any
> Argentine Tango
> music. She said 'What's tango?" Of course, once we get
> hooked on tango,
> all this changes and we all know how and where to buy
> CDs, but how do you
> get started.
>
> 4. Suggestions for exercises that are aimed at improving
> balance, posture,
> flexibility? What non tango classes help with tango (i.e.
> maybe yoga,
> ballet, pilates,...)
>
> 5. Discussion of the usefulness and ways of practicing
> alone. For example,
> my practice floor in the garage consists of a four foot
> by eight foot board
> I got at Home Depot for $6.00 and two 4 foot by 1 foot
> mirrors for $6.00
> each. The two mirrors are hanging by a rope on one side
> of the garage, and
> the board normally stands in front of them, but when I
> want to practice, I
> lay the board down in the garage, smooth side up, and
> practice away. 4x8
> feet is plenty of space to practice alone, or for one
> couple and the mirrors
> really help with posture issues. I have found holding a
> broom upside down,
> handle resting on the ground helps me see when I pull my
> would be partner
> off axis. Try doing a molinete around an upside down
> broom, always rotating
> chest towards broom, and not pulling the broom handle off
> vertical. (Of
> course a real live follower is much more fun:-}} )
>
> 6. Tango injuries and remedies - such as knee pain, back
> pain, hip pain. Not
> looking for medical information here, but practical
> suggestions for
> preventing, determining the cause of, alleviating. For
> example, I have
> heard ladies mention that they always take two ibuprofen
> when they wear
> their favorite shoes to a milonga. Are there things they
> could do to
> eliminate the need for the ibuprofen and still wear their
> favorite shoes -
> posture, exercise, padding, oils, etc.?
>
> Well, above are just a few of many tango related topics
> that would interest
> me. If anyone else is interested in any of these, I
> would welcome their
> thoughts.
>
> Ed Doyle
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:11:27 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@cenderis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> writes:
> Given that one can only retain 5 +/-2 pieces of information
> in short-term memory, Ed makes a quite reasonable comment
> and his usage of the word "learned" is perfectly
> understood.
The usual number is 7 (+/- 2), but the original paper probably doesn't
support most of the conclusions that it's used to support.
<https://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id 00U6&topic_id=1>.
It's about remembering random (disconnected) facts (or discriminating
things on a unidimensional scale). I guess that might apply to a
tango class if a teacher attempts to teach a number of unrelated
figures, or gives some pattern of steps without adequately motivating
them.
Remembering such things would be challenging, but I'm not sure that
using notebooks, videos, etc., is a suitable response. Probably
better to motivate and connect the collection of whatever it is you're
teaching. And probably you'd end up teaching maybe one or two things,
plus some variations on the same theme (which students could easily
reconstruct afterwards, having understood the principles).
[...]
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 04:24 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Christopher L. Everett wrote:
> My usual experience taking group classes has been that instructors
> present material in order of increasing complexity, and at some
> point the majority of the class finds itself in over its head.
>
> This is inevitable,
It is not inevitable. It is inevitable only of poor bulk teaching.
A teacher can have smaller groups. A teacher grade the students better. A
teacher can use assistants, so that different abilities can get focused
attention.
A good teacher adapts to avoid putting the majority of the class in over
its head.
> What's important to remember is that the best learning is that done at
> the edge of your existing abilities.
On that we agree. It's sad that more teachers do not understand this. This
is one reason why learning by doing is so much more effective than
learning by teaching - only in learning by doing does can that boundary of
ability direct the learning process.
> You can't blame instructors for this. They have to arrange the
> material this way, or no one gets anything out of the class.
Untrue. Here is an example each way from a study I made about five years
ago of the methods of about 60 tango teachers.
Gustavo Naviera taught a lesson on "Boleos". He began by having the class
watch his dancing... a demonstration of a long sequence near the end of
which was one boleo. He then asked the class to copy it. Some could not
get past the tricky turn at the start. Some more got stuck on the
cross-system chain in the middle. A few got as far as the boleo. Some
skipped most of the sequence and cut straight to the boleo. This was an
example of a method that excluded most of the class from the lesson, like
yours above.
Gavito taught a lesson on just "Tango" - no hostage to fortune there. He
started by watching the class dancing. He then proposed a simple move he
called the Basic Two. Almost all the class could do it. He then elaborated
this in different ways: slower/faster, in different rhythms, with an
extension, a decoration etc. Each couple was free to take as much or as
little as suited them, and explore the combinations as appropriate to the
music. This was an example of a method that included as much of the class
as possible, and maximised the opportunity to advance each individual's
boundary of ability.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
*From:* "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
*To:* Bruce Stephens <bruce@cenderis.demon.co.uk>
*CC:* Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
*Date:* Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:54:20 -0500
My usual experience taking group classes has been that instructors
present material in order of increasing complexity, and at some
point the majority of the class finds itself in over its head.
This is inevitable, given that any class represents a range of
abilities. What's important to remember is that the best learning
is that done at the edge of your existing abilities. In a group
lesson, perhaps 10 or 15 minutes of the class might lie in that
space, the rest being too easy (rehash of what you already have),
or too hard (waaay outside what you can do).
You can't blame instructors for this. They have to arrange the
material this way, or no one gets anything out of the class. But
at the same time, it strikes me as a waste of energy to take notes
or videotape stuff you can do easily, or stuff outside your range.
Christopher
Bruce Stephens wrote:
> "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Given that one can only retain 5 +/-2 pieces of information
>> in short-term memory, Ed makes a quite reasonable comment
>> and his usage of the word "learned" is perfectly
>> understood.
> The usual number is 7 (+/- 2), but the original paper probably doesn't
> support most of the conclusions that it's used to support.
>
<https://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id 00U6&topic_id1>.
>
> It's about remembering random (disconnected) facts (or discriminating
> things on a unidimensional scale). I guess that might apply to a
> tango class if a teacher attempts to teach a number of unrelated
> figures, or gives some pattern of steps without adequately motivating
> them.
>
> Remembering such things would be challenging, but I'm not sure that
> using notebooks, videos, etc., is a suitable response. Probably
> better to motivate and connect the collection of whatever it is you're
> teaching. And probably you'd end up teaching maybe one or two things,
> plus some variations on the same theme (which students could easily
> reconstruct afterwards, having understood the principles).
>
> [...]
>
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:05:45 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
To: tango-L@mit.edu
I wholeheartedly agree with Chris (UK)'s points. Teaching is up to the
teacher, and nothing is inevitable.
As for learning, that is the student's burden-- regardless of the
teacher's presentation-- and I'm very much in favor of taking notes. I
used to merely *say* this all the time, and eventually realized it was
hot air. So, three months ago, I went to a dollar-store, bought 60 cheap
notebooks and pens (total bill: $15), and offered them for free during a
group class. I repeated this week after week. I still have most of that
stack, but several people have started taking notes diligently, even
during class.
A few days ago, one of my note-taking students was describing to me the
different methods of notation he's gone through, the trial-n-error
experience of putting things into his own words, and so forth. The
little diagrams, etc. It's not such a struggle; he was speaking with
delight.
That, to me, is the reason to take a class in the first place-- tackling
the material as ourselves. As students, we have to translate the lesson
into our own terms; and we have to take some initiative if we're to
retain the material. Some of it sticks immediately, with experienced
students; much doesn't, but that doesn't mean it must be lost without a
fight.
My own note-taking has led to a lot of analysis, and has influenced the
way I teach and the way I dance. It leads to reflection and speculation;
it generates exact questions; it produces a record. I find it an act
both critical and creative. I don't blow my nose on those who watch
videos or anything, but that's quite a different activity. That's
watching TV, unless you take notes on the videos too. And I don't think
it's fair to criticize any teacher without having *studied* what they
taught.
I also recommend taking notes on yoga, cinema, music, cuisine, your
life-- everything. There is no good argument against it, compared to the
arguments for it.
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:30:01 -0600
From: "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
To: <spatz@tangoDC.com>, <tango-L@MIT.edu>
Jake, you wrote:
>>>...I'm very much in favor of taking notes...A few days ago, one of my
note-taking students was describing to me the different methods of notation
he's gone through, the trial-n-error experience of putting things into his
own words, and so forth. The little diagrams, etc. It's not such a struggle;
he was speaking with delight...That, to me, is the reason to take a class in
the first place-- tackling the material as ourselves. As students, we have
to translate the lesson into our own terms; and we have to take some
initiative if we're to retain the material...My own note-taking has led to a
lot of analysis, and has influenced the way I teach and the way I dance. It
leads to reflection and speculation; it generates exact questions; it
produces a record. I find it an act both critical and creative.
<<<
Gustavo and Giselle speak eloquently on this topic in their five-day
advanced/professional seminarios.
Gustavo and Giselle do not allow students to video *them* during class, but
they do allow students to video *themselves* during practice periods.
However, they specifically recommend against this practice, and they
specifically recommend taking notes by hand. Their justification goes
something like this:
"When you video someone dancing, what you are actually *doing* is practicing
the use of your camera. This activity does generate a video record, which
potentially has instructional value, but we know from long experience that
you will rarely or never actually watch the video record you created - and
in the process, all you accomplished was to practice the techniques of
making videos. As a result, we know that around the tango world there are
kilometers of videotape that will never be viewed again, and the benefit to
their makers is zero."
"On the other hand, if you make written notes on your lessons, even if you
rarely or never look at the notes either, the actual *activity* of making
the notes is forcing you to organize your thoughts and mental contexts for
the dancing that you saw. This development and imposition of meaning on what
you saw is innate in the process of writing notes, and does not occur when
you are making a video. Because of this, writing notes is much much more
valuable to your understanding of tango than practicing the use of your
camera."
Jake, you further wrote:
>>>
I don't blow my nose on those who watch
videos or anything, but that's quite a different activity. That's
watching TV, unless you take notes on the videos too.
<<<
What Deb and I actually do in Gustavo & Giselle's seminarios (we've taken
five of them, and look forward to more):
1: We take notes during the presentation, on small plastic-covered 3x5 card
spiral-bound notebooks (the spiral holds a short pen) that can be kept
without harm in a sweaty back pocket.
2: We video ourselves doing the material in the class, while explaining
verbally to the camera the critical insights gained from the presentation of
the material while they are still fresh in mind.
3: Before *too much* time has passed, we create a second set of notes in a
computer based on the union of #1 and #2.
As long as we don't get too frantic or tired for #3, this process works well
for us.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 21:56 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
"Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com> wrote:
> Gustavo and Giselle do not allow students to video *them* during class
Do they actually say why?
> but they do allow students to video *themselves* during practice
Oh, how generous of them! ;)
> However, they specifically recommend against this practice, "... the
> benefit to their makers is zero."
I find it somewhat ironic that that 'zero benefit' is sufficient grounds
for a tango class teacher (of all people) to specially recommend against.
> "On the other hand, ... the actual *activity* of making the notes is
> forcing you to organize your thoughts and mental contexts for the
> dancing that you saw. This development and imposition of meaning on what
> you saw is innate in the process of writing notes,
Indeed - one of the major hazards of note-taking. The note's "imposition
of meaning" is entirely subjective, and can easily lead to a record the
later review of which can more easily reinforce than remedy any
misunderstandings of the moment.
> Because of this, writing notes is much much more valuable to your
> understanding of tango than ... camera."
What an astonishing assertion. I personally am not a fan of video records,
but compared with written notes, at least the camera is relatively
objective.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
*From:* "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com>
*To:* <spatz@tangodc.com>, <tango-L@MIT.edu>
*Date:* Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:30:01 -0600
Jake, you wrote:
>>>...I'm very much in favor of taking notes...A few days ago, one of my
note-taking students was describing to me the different methods of notation
he's gone through, the trial-n-error experience of putting things into his
own words, and so forth. The little diagrams, etc. It's not such a struggle;
he was speaking with delight...That, to me, is the reason to take a class in
the first place-- tackling the material as ourselves. As students, we have
to translate the lesson into our own terms; and we have to take some
initiative if we're to retain the material...My own note-taking has led to a
lot of analysis, and has influenced the way I teach and the way I dance. It
leads to reflection and speculation; it generates exact questions; it
produces a record. I find it an act both critical and creative.
<<<
Gustavo and Giselle speak eloquently on this topic in their five-day
advanced/professional seminarios.
Gustavo and Giselle do not allow students to video *them* during class, but
they do allow students to video *themselves* during practice periods.
However, they specifically recommend against this practice, and they
specifically recommend taking notes by hand. Their justification goes
something like this:
"When you video someone dancing, what you are actually *doing* is practicing
the use of your camera. This activity does generate a video record, which
potentially has instructional value, but we know from long experience that
you will rarely or never actually watch the video record you created - and
in the process, all you accomplished was to practice the techniques of
making videos. As a result, we know that around the tango world there are
kilometers of videotape that will never be viewed again, and the benefit to
their makers is zero."
"On the other hand, if you make written notes on your lessons, even if you
rarely or never look at the notes either, the actual *activity* of making
the notes is forcing you to organize your thoughts and mental contexts for
the dancing that you saw. This development and imposition of meaning on what
you saw is innate in the process of writing notes, and does not occur when
you are making a video. Because of this, writing notes is much much more
valuable to your understanding of tango than practicing the use of your
camera."
Jake, you further wrote:
>>>
I don't blow my nose on those who watch
videos or anything, but that's quite a different activity. That's
watching TV, unless you take notes on the videos too.
<<<
What Deb and I actually do in Gustavo & Giselle's seminarios (we've taken
five of them, and look forward to more):
1: We take notes during the presentation, on small plastic-covered 3x5 card
spiral-bound notebooks (the spiral holds a short pen) that can be kept
without harm in a sweaty back pocket.
2: We video ourselves doing the material in the class, while explaining
verbally to the camera the critical insights gained from the presentation of
the material while they are still fresh in mind.
3: Before *too much* time has passed, we create a second set of notes in a
computer based on the union of #1 and #2.
As long as we don't get too frantic or tired for #3, this process works well
for us.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 19:50:34 -0300
From: rtara@maine.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
To: tl2@chrisjj.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
No camera or note can tell you as much as your body memory.
In any class the method is in the movement, not the steps.
In any dance the message is in the movement.
Greetings from Buenos Aires,
Robin Tara
Tara Design, Inc
https://www.taratangoshoes.com
----- Original Message -----
Date: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 7:01 pm
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com> wrote:
>
> > Gustavo and Giselle do not allow students to video *them* during
> class
> Do they actually say why?
>
> > but they do allow students to video *themselves* during practice
>
> Oh, how generous of them! ;)
>
> > However, they specifically recommend against this practice, "...
> the
> > benefit to their makers is zero."
>
> I find it somewhat ironic that that 'zero benefit' is sufficient
> grounds
> for a tango class teacher (of all people) to specially recommend
> against.
> > "On the other hand, ... the actual *activity* of making the notes is
> > forcing you to organize your thoughts and mental contexts for the
> > dancing that you saw. This development and imposition of meaning
> on what
> > you saw is innate in the process of writing notes,
>
> Indeed - one of the major hazards of note-taking. The note's
> "imposition
> of meaning" is entirely subjective, and can easily lead to a record
> the
> later review of which can more easily reinforce than remedy any
> misunderstandings of the moment.
>
> > Because of this, writing notes is much much more valuable to your
> > understanding of tango than ... camera."
>
> What an astonishing assertion. I personally am not a fan of video
> records,
> but compared with written notes, at least the camera is relatively
> objective.
>
> Chris
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
> *From:* "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com>
> *To:* <spatz@tangodc.com>, <tango-L@MIT.edu>
> *Date:* Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:30:01 -0600
>
> Jake, you wrote:
> >>>...I'm very much in favor of taking notes...A few days ago, one
> of my
> note-taking students was describing to me the different methods of
> notationhe's gone through, the trial-n-error experience of putting
> things into his
> own words, and so forth. The little diagrams, etc. It's not such a
> struggle;he was speaking with delight...That, to me, is the reason
> to take a class in
> the first place-- tackling the material as ourselves. As students,
> we have
> to translate the lesson into our own terms; and we have to take some
> initiative if we're to retain the material...My own note-taking has
> led to a
> lot of analysis, and has influenced the way I teach and the way I
> dance. It
> leads to reflection and speculation; it generates exact questions; it
> produces a record. I find it an act both critical and creative.
> <<<
>
> Gustavo and Giselle speak eloquently on this topic in their five-day
> advanced/professional seminarios.
>
> Gustavo and Giselle do not allow students to video *them* during
> class, but
> they do allow students to video *themselves* during practice periods.
> However, they specifically recommend against this practice, and they
> specifically recommend taking notes by hand. Their justification goes
> something like this:
>
> "When you video someone dancing, what you are actually *doing* is
> practicingthe use of your camera. This activity does generate a
> video record, which
> potentially has instructional value, but we know from long
> experience that
> you will rarely or never actually watch the video record you
> created - and
> in the process, all you accomplished was to practice the techniques of
> making videos. As a result, we know that around the tango world
> there are
> kilometers of videotape that will never be viewed again, and the
> benefit to
> their makers is zero."
>
> "On the other hand, if you make written notes on your lessons, even
> if you
> rarely or never look at the notes either, the actual *activity* of
> makingthe notes is forcing you to organize your thoughts and mental
> contexts for
> the dancing that you saw. This development and imposition of
> meaning on what
> you saw is innate in the process of writing notes, and does not
> occur when
> you are making a video. Because of this, writing notes is much
> much more
> valuable to your understanding of tango than practicing the use of
> yourcamera."
>
> Jake, you further wrote:
> >>>
> I don't blow my nose on those who watch
> videos or anything, but that's quite a different activity. That's
> watching TV, unless you take notes on the videos too.
> <<<
>
> What Deb and I actually do in Gustavo & Giselle's seminarios (we've
> takenfive of them, and look forward to more):
>
> 1: We take notes during the presentation, on small plastic-covered
> 3x5 card
> spiral-bound notebooks (the spiral holds a short pen) that can be kept
> without harm in a sweaty back pocket.
>
> 2: We video ourselves doing the material in the class, while
> explainingverbally to the camera the critical insights gained from
> the presentation of
> the material while they are still fresh in mind.
>
> 3: Before *too much* time has passed, we create a second set of
> notes in a
> computer based on the union of #1 and #2.
>
> As long as we don't get too frantic or tired for #3, this process
> works well
> for us.
>
> All the best,
> Brian Dunn
> Dance of the Heart
> Boulder, Colorado USA
> www.danceoftheheart.com
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:36:47 +0000
From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 13:33:50 -0800 (PST)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Most likely because there is no one "right" way to dance tango, but also because
there is so much to learn, there can be an awful lot of crossed signals and
misinformation floating around.
One of my instructors here in Portland always sent out via email "class notes" after
each class he taught. I value this written record of what was taught in class very
highly.
It isn't a substitute for the actual movement or sensation, but it does serve as a touch
stone when something doesn't feel right, or when there are questions about something
I think I know.
Many people who have been in the same classes as I have never even looked at the notes.
Seems that I did hear somewhere that we don't all learn the same way.
Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: rtara@maine.rr.com
No camera or note can tell you as much as your body memory.
------------------
My 2cents:
No argument with the statement. Agree completely. But there's more to the
actuality.
How many correct repetitions of a movement does it take before it is
embedded in your body memory? How often do you take a class and get enough
time to do enough repetitions that your body remembers it? How often have
you taken a class in which you were told to do things a particular way, and
maybe gotten that into your body memory to some degree, only to take the
next class from a different instructor and be told something condradictory?
A lot of people who've attended festivals here in Portland and elsewhere
have experienced that point of saturation, about the third day usually, when
you can't seem to remember details of the classes you took the first day.
There are a lot of reasons for that of course, not the least of which is
that tango instructors are notorious for teaching "their" brand of tango,
and while we sincerely admire and love them for sharing their unique soul
with us, the problem can arise that their techniques may flatly contradict
those of other instructors, leading to a lot of cognitive as well as body
memory confusion.
I've taken notes during classes, and I've videotaped class summaries, and I
find such devices helpful to remind me of details. But I wouldn't expect to
learn, or expect anyone else to learn, from just reading my notes. They are
just a mnemonic reminder. Then I can go back to the dancefloor and repeat
the movement the number of times needed to sink it into my body memory.
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
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Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 12:45 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Jay wrote:
> My 2cents: How many correct repetitions of a movement does it take
> before it is embedded in your body memory?
My 2 cents: there's no place for rote-learning and memorisation of
movements in salon tango. Tango is improvised - the moves come from the
feeling of each moment. Memorised moves degenerate the dancing into
choreography.
> A lot of people who've attended festivals here in Portland and
> elsewhere have experienced that point of saturation, about the third
> day usually, when you can't seem to remember details of the classes you
> took the first day.
I think you'll find the cause is not saturation. IME most students cannot
remember the content of a three-day-old class regardless. Not least
because their natural feeling for the dance rejects rote-learning and
memorisation of movements.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
*From:* "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:36:47 +0000
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 04:57:14 -0500
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
Again I'm not a dancer (however I feel dance is very connected to musical
concepts) but, it seems to me that if you consider that in music
improvisation can not be done with out a basis of patterns, theory,
understanding of the key, etc. I submit you can't improvise, i.e. run till
you can crawl, i.e. Learn some moves.
There has to be a basis for improvisation in anything.
_A
> From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
> Reply-To: <tl2@chrisjj.com>
> Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 12:45 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
> Cc: <tl2@chrisjj.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
>
> Jay wrote:
>
>> My 2cents: How many correct repetitions of a movement does it take
>> before it is embedded in your body memory?
>
> My 2 cents: there's no place for rote-learning and memorisation of
> movements in salon tango. Tango is improvised - the moves come from the
> feeling of each moment. Memorised moves degenerate the dancing into
> choreography.
>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
and reprinted below.
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
