3792 DJ at Central Park: To Anonymous
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:58:28 -0400
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: DJ at Central Park: To Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Bottom line, if you have an opinion about the DJ, good OR bad, go tell the
organizers, or email them. If the DJ causes you to seek out a milonga, or
conversely, to stay away, SAY SO. You should help the organizers bring the
people what they want. It's up to the dancers to DEMAND good DJs. And the
organizers should publicize who is DJing so the dancers know what to expect.
Dear Anonymous,
You make many good points, although in my opinion, rather too optimistic.
I am convinced that the the public AT LARGE knows next to nothing of Tango
music history and styles, nor may care less. My belief is subjective of
course, and is based on the absolute lack of any (recent) serious music
related discussions on Tango-L. The interest in jazz in this country is
admirably sustained by the jazz radio stations, with biographical and
historical programming. Nothing similar exists for Tango on radio, and to do
it from records at home is very hard work. This is not Argentina after all,
and I am aware that asking for Tango musical education is a losing battle -
listening for one hour or more each day to Tangos is too dificult and
expensive, time and moneywise.
Hence it follows that we cannot have large crowds demanding this or that
style or tandas, or DJ, as you suggest - The public does not know better
than what are served once or twice per week at a milonga. Sometimes good,
hold the flames - (as you see, I can be generous :->) - but more of an
exception. Nor have many the skills to judge a DJ, a person who may not even
understand that serious talent is required to be a good DJ. How much more
talent and application is needed to know, absorbe and refine a taste for the
Tango music repertoire which evolved over a span of one hundred years!
What are left with? That the cognoscenti petition the organizers, as you
also suggest, who may include self-appointed DJs and are guaranteed a large
uncritical public clamoring for dance space, whatever the music, and may not
even understand what is being asked of them? Jane told us, this approach has
been attempted with DJGuy to no avail.
Seth
- A person who dances Troilo/Fiorention's greatest only at home....-
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 19:17:45 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: DJ at Central Park
Folks, forgive me for feeding the trolls.
Seth,
When I sent you a private email saying that your post
should have been kept private, I was hoping your
response would be something like Oops, it was
supposed to be private and I accidentally sent it on
Tango-L. After all, it was addressed to a specific
person unrelated to any thread and addressed a local
issue.
And I continue in my (perhaps naove) belief that
people do have manners, that a fellow tanguero would
not treat another tanguero that has bared his artistic
soul so disrespectfully, even if the latter may have
shown bad taste.
Every deejay, every teacher, every organizer offers up
their personal sense of art at every event they do.
Their artistry, which comes from within, may inspire
or disappoint others, but they have the guts to share
their artistry. Having the guts to open oneself for
criticism is not easy, but they do it for something
that they love and want to share.
I do not know this dj of whom you have been
complaining, but I do know that he probably did not
deserve your initial email attempting to humiliate
him. At least he is trying to do something positive
for his community.
So you want to do something to improve the situation?
Then quit whining, and DO SOMETHING. Offer to deejay,
set up your own milonga, teach your own classes,
organize your own events. Its your community, too.
Participate. Make a difference.
As for those who anonymously sent you email to forward
heres something to think about. I made a major
difference in my community because I did speak out.
Yes, a lot of it was hard for people to hear but
necessary. Yes, people tossed sticks and arrows at
me. But I am still standing and I most definitely
made a positive difference on my community. And I did
not just speak out, but I did something about it.
Now, I have a community of which I can be proud.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Yahoo! for Good
Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:40:12 -0500
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: DJ at Central Park
Seth wrote <<<<<<> > Dear Gui,
> > I came to the Central Park milonga yesterday, and for the first time
> > I left before its conclusion. Your music selection was simply awful,
> > the boom-boom,
> > chop-chop kind, with nary any variation (one was 6 minutes long!),
> > almost no
> > valses or milongas, tandas being a concept obviously foreign to
you..
> > And
> > all minor tangos...Someone should have told you that the role of a
DJ
> > is to
> > keep people dancing: you couldn't even keep the seated spectators
from
> > leaving...Find yourself another hobby, you failed this one.
> > Seth>>>>>
and Trini wrote <<<<When I sent you a private email saying that your
post
should have been kept private..... it was addressed to a specific person
unrelated to any thread and addressed a local issue...... Their
artistry, which comes from within, may inspire or disappoint others, but
they have the guts to share
their artistry..... At least he is trying to do something positive for
his community...... Then quit whining, and DO SOMETHING. Offer to
deejay,
set up your own milonga...... I made a major difference in my community
because I did speak out. Yes, a lot of it was hard for people to hear
but necessary. Yes, people tossed sticks and arrows at me. But I am
still standing and I most definitely
made a positive difference on my community.>>>>>>>>
I don't know any of the parties in New York, but from what I understand,
this Central Park Milonga is a big deal, and many people have come to
love it, and are understandably upset if the music does not rise to the
occasion.
The music is what makes or breaks every milonga. The venue, the
ambience, the weather, the food, etc, can be poor, but if the music is
good, these can be overcome. But even in the best venue, with the best
ambience, and weather, and food, etc, poor music can turn a milonga into
a bad experience.
Seth wrote that this was the first time he's left before the end, which
implies that he attends at least somewhat regularly, and I get the
impression that he's "grieving" because he thinks one of his favorite
milongas is lost or on the way out. So he's angry, as I would be. He may
not have approached the issue in the most circumspect way possible, but
it sounds like some of those "less direct" approaches have been tried,
and have not produced any results.(<Jane> wrote, <<<<On occasion I have
protested to the organizer, and I know others who have, but somehow Guy
keeps getting invited back. It's a shame - and a mystery.>>>>>>).
Assuming all this is true, it seems to me that drastic measures were
called for. It doesn't sound like this guy should be properly called a
DJ at all, much less an artist, and the organizers need to be called on
the carpet for allowing him to play music at any milonga. And it doesn't
sound to me like he is doing anything "positive" for his community. It
sounds more like he's playing his own personal agenda without regard for
the desires of the attendees. And any DJ that does not play music in a
"tanda format" needs to be fired before the milonga is over.
Seth wrote what he felt, and he didn't pull any punches. He didn't say
the guy was a miserable excuse for a human being, or a rotten person,
just that he was a lousy DJ, and suggested that he look for a different
hobby. And yes, while this instance is a local issue, New York is one
great big locality, and the issue is pertinent to all.
And while Trini's suggestion that Seth DO SOMETHING is all well and
good, New York is a little different from PA. There are multiple events
nightly, many hundreds (maybe a thousand or more?) dancers, and much
harder for one person to make a difference by starting his own milonga,
etc. It sounds to me like Seth just wants to be able to continue
enjoying the milonga at Central Park as he's used to.
It's a shame that <Jane>, and others, can't also post their
disappointment with their name attached, which might help in waking up
the organizers.
I have the same problem in Houston, milongas without tandas, people who
think tango is background music, and that everyone loves to dance to
Piazzola and Pugliese exclusively. So I feel very strongly about the
issue, and I can understand Seth's consternation, and that he probably
feels somewhat impotent, and this was the best way he knew of making his
feelings known. So maybe, just maybe......"he'll make a major difference
in his community because he did speak out. Yes, a lot of it was hard for
people to hear but necessary. Yes, people tossed sticks and arrows at
him. But he is still standing and he most definitely made a positive
difference on his community."
All above is based on assuming the truth and validity of Seth's emails
on this subject.
Regards,
Michael from Houston
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:41:19 -0400
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: DJ at Central Park
On 9/13/05, Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com> wrote :
If I may add another small angle to Michael's admirably perceptive posting:
People spend an inordinate amount of money and time learning Tango (even
travelling to BsAs), with the teachers generally playing very danceable
music. The dancers coming to a milonga expect to hear familiar kinds of
music, or rhythms learned at the lessons and practicas, so they could dance
well and have fun. A DJ who plays consistently bad music as he/she wishes,
with disregard to the dancers' needs and expectations is doing a public
disservice. I am mystified why some attempt to hush-hush well-merited
censure from view, even in face of evidence that it does not work.
Lacking a forum for truly professional reviews of US Tango events, venues,
milongas, DJs, Tango-L is the natural outlet for amateur critiques, and one
may have to overlook issues of personal style if the topics are meaningful
and (not again??) of general interest. Sometimes, it is the best way to
influence people.
Seth
------------------
I don't know any of the parties in New York, but from what I understand,
> this Central Park Milonga is a big deal, and many people have come to
> love it, and are understandably upset if the music does not rise to the
> occasion.
The music is what makes or breaks every milonga. The venue, the
> ambience, the weather, the food, etc, can be poor, but if the music is
> good, these can be overcome. But even in the best venue, with the best
> ambience, and weather, and food, etc, poor music can turn a milonga into
> a bad experience.
>
> Seth wrote that this was the first time he's left before the end, which
> implies that he attends at least somewhat regularly, and I get the
> impression that he's "grieving" because he thinks one of his favorite
> milongas is lost or on the way out. So he's angry, as I would be. He may
> not have approached the issue in the most circumspect way possible, but
> it sounds like some of those "less direct" approaches have been tried,
> and have not produced any results.(<Jane> wrote, <<<<On occasion I have
> protested to the organizer, and I know others who have, but somehow Guy
> keeps getting invited back. It's a shame - and a mystery.>>>>>>).
> Assuming all this is true, it seems to me that drastic measures were
> called for. It doesn't sound like this guy should be properly called a
> DJ at all, much less an artist, and the organizers need to be called on
> the carpet for allowing him to play music at any milonga. And it doesn't
> sound to me like he is doing anything "positive" for his community. It
> sounds more like he's playing his own personal agenda without regard for
> the desires of the attendees. And any DJ that does not play music in a
> "tanda format" needs to be fired before the milonga is over.
>
> Seth wrote what he felt, and he didn't pull any punches. He didn't say
> the guy was a miserable excuse for a human being, or a rotten person,
> just that he was a lousy DJ, and suggested that he look for a different
> hobby. And yes, while this instance is a local issue, New York is one
> great big locality, and the issue is pertinent to all.
>
> And while Trini's suggestion that Seth DO SOMETHING is all well and
> good, New York is a little different from PA. There are multiple events
> nightly, many hundreds (maybe a thousand or more?) dancers, and much
> harder for one person to make a difference by starting his own milonga,
> etc. It sounds to me like Seth just wants to be able to continue
> enjoying the milonga at Central Park as he's used to.
>
> It's a shame that <Jane>, and others, can't also post their
> disappointment with their name attached, which might help in waking up
> the organizers.
>
> I have the same problem in Houston, milongas without tandas, people who
> think tango is background music, and that everyone loves to dance to
> Piazzola and Pugliese exclusively. So I feel very strongly about the
> issue, and I can understand Seth's consternation, and that he probably
> feels somewhat impotent, and this was the best way he knew of making his
> feelings known. So maybe, just maybe......"he'll make a major difference
> in his community because he did speak out. Yes, a lot of it was hard for
> people to hear but necessary. Yes, people tossed sticks and arrows at
> him. But he is still standing and he most definitely made a positive
> difference on his community."
>
> All above is based on assuming the truth and validity of Seth's emails
> on this subject.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael from Houston
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:34:34 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: DJ at Central Park
--- Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> And while Trini's suggestion that Seth DO SOMETHING
> is all well and
> good, New York is a little different from PA. There
> are multiple events
> nightly, many hundreds (maybe a thousand or more?)
> dancers, and much
> harder for one person to make a difference by
> starting his own milonga,
> etc. It sounds to me like Seth just wants to be able
> to continue
> enjoying the milonga at Central Park as he's used
> to.
But the DJ and organizer have a right to express
themselves, as well, even if they do so badly. New
York does have a lot of venues but that does not mean
that every organizer has to please everyone. There
are lots of other choices, unlike PA, OH, MI, etc.
For other cities, it may be a tough call. For NYC, it
really shouldn't be.
To me, this is like going to an alternative milonga in
a city with 7 traditional milongas and complaining
that no traditional tangos are being played that
night. If Seth, Jane, etc. now know that that milonga
isn't going to work for them, then they should go
elsewhere.
That doesn't mean that I do not empathize with Seth or
Jane, but apparently there's enough of an interested
market to keep that guy in business.
Trini
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:11:20 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: DJ at Central Park
This theme of the music played at milongas is a prickly one. For my own
taste, I prefer the tried and true music that the best DJs play. There must
be at least one thousand excellent, danceable tango music pieces of the
golden era. Of course, there are also thousands of pretty undanceable or
even downright abominable pieces of tango music. Some of this "bad" music
was recorded by the same orchestras who in other times produced the best of
danceable music. I wont even go into the non-tango music theme....
I've voiced my displeasure already about DJs who feel compelled to show off
their collection of arcane bad music. I guess they think they are being very
clever by playing stuff that no one else does. Too bad they don't know why
nobody else plays that garbage.... As others have noted, there is no easy
solution to these problems. It's not so simple or easy to just start another
milonga. For one thing, this could create more problems that it solves.
Also, voting with one's feet would work, but only if everyone did it. It's
been my experience that milongas where the music is less than good still
function if not thrive... It's a complicated thing to just quit a milonga.
There is more to it than just a room and some bad tango music. It involves
other people and there is nothing uncomplicated about dealing with other
folks, specially about contrversial subjects like their choice of music.....
Lastly, I fear that whoever posted before was right. There are lots of
people who don't know good from not so good music or simply do not care.
They'll continue to attend milongas even if the music makes one cry rather
than dance. Also, just because people will actually spend lots of time and
money "learning" to tango and even going to Bs As, etc. it does not mean
that they'll get even a clue about the music (or the dance for that matter).
I know plenty of people who've gone to Buenos Aires, and presumably spent
money and time on tango lessons, milongas, music stores, etc. But alas, they
return to dance poorly and prefer the most strange music for their
milongas..... Yes, they play Tanturi con Castillo, Troilo y Florentino,
Darienzo, Calo, etc. for listening as background music and when the milonga
starts they switch to Hugo Diaz, Piazzolla, Cabarute, '60s ands 70's
Quinteto Mayor, Basso, etc..... Go figure.
Manuel
>From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
>Reply-To: s1redh@gmail.com
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] DJ at Central Park
>Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:41:19 -0400
>
>On 9/13/05, Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com> wrote :
>
>If I may add another small angle to Michael's admirably perceptive posting:
>
>People spend an inordinate amount of money and time learning Tango (even
>travelling to BsAs), with the teachers generally playing very danceable
>music. The dancers coming to a milonga expect to hear familiar kinds of
>music, or rhythms learned at the lessons and practicas, so they could dance
>well and have fun. A DJ who plays consistently bad music as he/she wishes,
>with disregard to the dancers' needs and expectations is doing a public
>disservice. I am mystified why some attempt to hush-hush well-merited
>censure from view, even in face of evidence that it does not work.
>
>Lacking a forum for truly professional reviews of US Tango events, venues,
>milongas, DJs, Tango-L is the natural outlet for amateur critiques, and one
>may have to overlook issues of personal style if the topics are meaningful
>and (not again??) of general interest. Sometimes, it is the best way to
>influence people.
>
>Seth
>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:12:25 -0500
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: DJ at Central Park
Trini writes;
<<<<<<But the DJ and organizer have a right to express
themselves, as well, even if they do so badly. New
York does have a lot of venues but that does not mean
that every organizer has to please everyone>>>>>
Of course, the DJ has a right to express themselves; without looking
I can tell a Robin Thomas milonga from a Robert Hauk milonga from a Ramu
Pyreddy milonga, etc. And I'm no music expert, believe me. And there is
no way that any one DJ can always please everybody (although the guys
mentioned above, and others, seem to come pretty darn close). But I
believe that a DJ's FIRST responsibility is to the DANCERS. That's why
he got the job; to play the right music, in the right format, in the
right order, to keep the dancers dancing. Within these constraints, I
sincerely hope the DJ exhibits some creativity in expressing themselves.
<<<<<< That doesn't mean that I do not empathize with Seth or
Jane, but apparently there's enough of an interested
market to keep that guy in business.>>>>>
If this guy actually does keep the crowd dancing, then yes, Seth and
others need to abandon the place and dance elsewhere. But if, as Seth
says, even the seated spectators leave, then the DJ needs to move on
down the road.
And I'd like to add my thanks to those DJs mentioned above, and
Alex, and Avik, and Dan Boccia, etc. Tine says it's not rocket science,
but I know it's not easy, and I sure can't do it. Yet.
Just my opinion, and respecting yours!
Michael from Houston
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:40:13 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: DJ at Central Park
Michael Figart II wrote:
> But I believe that a DJ's FIRST responsibility is to the DANCERS.
> That's why he got the job;
You mean they actually get paid?
Many DJs DJ out of love for the music (and pleasing dancers, and
dancing); at least that's why *I* used to DJ - before all the
acrimonious political games between different subclasses in the city
(the "one man, one tango party" syndrome) made it impossible
to enjoy it.
And no, I didn't use cortinas (though there were definitely tandas),
and no, each tanda wasn't with songs from the same orchestra or even
mood (some of them were consciously evolving to blend with the next
tanda). I'm not an Argentine, and I don't feel I am absolutely
forced by Divine Law to follow historical precedent - the social
conventions that made cortinas a necessity in BsAs are really no more
in a contemporary European setting, though sometimes I do enjoy
tandas with a *good* cortina between them when the hosts prefer
them (but I've been to milongas with 1-minute cortinas, all
identical for the entire evening, and I can tell you that since
I attended one of them, I loathe Dean Martin's "That's Amore!"
with a vengeance).
And you know what? Despite trampling on all conventions with two feet
(yes, I even tend to play some danceable Piazolla),
even Argentines can appreciate something that goes a bit
off the beaten path and is fresh and surprising. I'd hate to think
that tango is dead enough to require being conserved as it was in
the '30s.
I have yet to see one Argentine fail to ask what Dirk van Esbroeck's
"Rookgordijnen" (a Belgian song that's also an excellent milonga) is...
As long as you keep an eye out for what the dancers like and how
they respond.
I hate the politically correct tango nazis attitude (which frequently
even sees the more exuberant '50s tangos by established artists as
anathema) with a vengeance.
If I sensed there was too much of that around, I always
played Tita Merello's '55 "Se dice de mí". Most don't get the lyrics
and the pun, but it get their legs entangled pretty well if they
don't know that version by heart ;).
--
Alexis Cousein Solutions Architect
Silicon Graphics/SGI
--
If I can see further, it is by standing on reference manuals.
