5343 Don't blame your follower ... and don't blame
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:12:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower ... and don't blame
others!!!
To: keith@tangohk.com, tango-l@mit.edu
This is a reply to "Re: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo"
Tango For Her wrote:
And, one surprising aspect, for the woman, is that if it is led correctly, her foot will wind far enough around to hit you in your
thigh! They tend to like the fact that they appear so flexible.
Keith Wrote:
I don't agree that if the woman's leg swings around too far and hits the man's leg, that this demonstrates that the Boleo has been led
correctly. On the contrary, it could easily demonstrate that the man has over-rotated or has injected too much energy into the lead. It
could also demonstrate that the lady is not yet skilled enough to control her Boleo. Either way, there's a problem.
It's important to remember that leading a snappy Boleo doesn't depend on force but on timing the change of direction precisely. And after the sharp change of direction, it's important to slow the woman down so that the over-rotation described in the previous post doesn't occur.
Tango For Her is writing:
Ha! One of the very, very best teachers in the world once told me, while teaching me the contra boleo, that, it you lead it correctly, you "can" make the woman's foot hit your thigh. Sorry. I should not have written "will hit ...". I didn't realize that it would turn into a stranger telling me that I had a problem! You see, if you don't lead it correctly, you may not have as much energy in the boleo as you could. If you do lead it correctly, you really CAN make the woman's foot hit your thigh!
Let it be known. I do agree that if her foot hit my thigh that I over led it.
Read on to learn how "dancing for the woman" is the best way to improve AND the best way to make the woman happy. It's a mindset. But, if you stick with it, you'll get it ...
I don't agree that, if that happened, then it could imply that the woman is not yet skilled enough to control her boleo. Oiy! Women, do you hear that? What a mindset! I dance with a phenominal follower and, if I want, I can easily make her foot hit my thigh. I have been blessed to have had two long-term partners that I consider to be amongst the best followers in the U.S.A. And, I can tell you that I CAN lead both to do all kinds of boleos, sometimes, with their foot touching my thigh. Read on. You'll find that most women find it amazing!
I really think that the only time that a woman might want to "control" her boleo is when the dance floor is crowded. And, even THEN, I have the mindset that if I am dancing with a woman that likes to do huge boleos even when I lead small boleos, and the dance floor is tight, that it is up to ME to, perhaps, not lead boleos. Hey leaders! Stop blaming your followers!
A great leader will always see that the shortcomings of a movement, or feeling, in tango, is his fault, not his follower's fault. Women are always telling me that other leaders spend a lifetime telling them that this is their fault and that is their fault.
So, I ask them. "Do you like their dancing?"
When they say, "Not really".
I say, "Well, that isn't your fault either.".
At any rate, I CAN make my follower's foot hit my thigh with a contra-boleo and, when I do, it ISN'T because she isn't good enough! Have I said, "Oiy!", yet?
I do alot of moves that involve a strong twist of the woman's waist because the feedback that I get is "Do more of those!!!". Once in a great while, with the contra-boleo, her foot touches my thigh. If I mention it. She says that, actually, she likes it ... EVERYTIME! Imagine that! It wasn't a problem! She liked it!
I get that some women might be shy when they reply that they liked it. I get that once in a great while, I lead just a touch too far ... and I correct for it. Hey! Imagine that! It wasn't her fault, again!!!
Furthermore, must we ALWAYS lead "snappy" boleos? How boring!
Is it really true that, after the sharp change of direction, it's important to slow the woman down so that the over-rotation doesn't occur? Sounds like 1-dimensional dancing to me!
Remember, if you always dance for the woman, you will not find her wrong and you will be delighted to find that every dance is different!
So, for example, after the sharp change of direction, many different feels or techniques could be used. Not just the one described in the last post! Try it. I promise you, when you learn that level of control, she'll like it!
Again, women are always confiding in me that men are making them wrong. Again, I tell them that if the guy is doing that, then let it go. He probably isn't going to realize, for a longtime to come, that if he learns to control the dance through his lead, women will like dancing with him more. It's his shortcoming, not hers!
Keith, if you have a problem with the way I stated something, try being nice. And, PLEASE, don't follow up MY 1-dimensional statement with ANOTHER of your own!
P.S.: To all of my followers: Do your boleos just the way you like. I will not say that you are not skilled enough if there was a problem. Matter of fact, I might just change my lead a little, next time. Tango IS a conversation, right?
Besides, if I dance for you rather than for me, you might actaully want to dance with me, again!
Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
I don't agree that if the woman's leg swings around too far and hits the man's leg, that this demonstrates that the Boleo has been led
correctly. On the contrary, it could easily demonstrate that the man has over-rotated or has injected too much energy into the lead. It
could also demonstrate that the lady is not yet skilled enough to control her Boleo. Either way, there's a problem.
It's important to remember that leading a snappy Boleo doesn't depend on force but on timing the change of direction precisely. And
after the sharp change of direction, it's important to slow the woman down so that the over-rotation described in the previous post
doesn't occur.
Keith, HK
On Fri Dec 14 8:33 , Tango For Her sent:
>And, one surprising aspect, for the woman, is that if it is led correctly, her foot will wind far enough around to hit you in your
thigh! They tend to like the fact that they appear so flexible.
>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:42:22 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower ... and don't blame
others!!!
To: tango-l@mit.edu
TFH,
I competely agree with what you say about not blaming the follower and find it ironic that I should be on the receiving end of your
lecture. Not long ago, I was making the same argument to other leaders who were blaming their followers - where were you when I need
you :-). So, have I changed my position? - NO. Saying a girl is not skilled enough execute a figure is certainly not to blame her for
any problems that arise when the figure is led but not executed well. It's still the leaders fault because he shouldn't have led the
figure in the first place. If the girl's skill level is below yours - always dance to her level - or slightly above to challenge her
and to help her improve.
BTW, my reply was based on the reasonable assumption that you didn't intend for her to hit your leg during the Boleo and I still
can't imagine why you would want to do that. But, if that's what you want to lead - that's your business, not mine.
OK, I'll try being nice - I've been told that before. But I'm not sure what more I can do. It just seems like the guys on the list
are unable to accept any form of criticism or even perceived criticism. Sorry if that's still not being nice enough.
One final question to the many expert followers out there. If I guy overled a Boleo, would you follow though and hit the guy's leg or
would you control the Boleo and not hit his leg? I admit I don't know the 'correct' answer.
Keith, HK
On Sat Dec 15 14:12 , Tango For Her sent:
>This is a reply to "Re: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo"
>
> Tango For Her wrote:
>
> And, one surprising aspect, for the woman, is that if it is led correctly, her foot will wind far enough around to hit you in your
>thigh! They tend to like the fact that they appear so flexible.
>
> Keith Wrote:
>
> I don't agree that if the woman's leg swings around too far and hits the man's leg, that this demonstrates that the Boleo has been
led
>correctly. On the contrary, it could easily demonstrate that the man has over-rotated or has injected too much energy into the lead.
It
>could also demonstrate that the lady is not yet skilled enough to control her Boleo. Either way, there's a problem.
>
>It's important to remember that leading a snappy Boleo doesn't depend on force but on timing the change of direction precisely. And
after the sharp change of direction, it's important to slow the woman down so that the over-rotation described in the previous post
doesn't occur.
>
> Tango For Her is writing:
>
> Ha! One of the very, very best teachers in the world once told me, while teaching me the contra boleo, that, it you lead it
correctly, you "can" make the woman's foot hit your thigh. Sorry. I should not have written "will hit ...". I didn't realize that
it would turn into a stranger telling me that I had a problem! You see, if you don't lead it correctly, you may not have as much
energy in the boleo as you could. If you do lead it correctly, you really CAN make the woman's foot hit your thigh!
>
> Let it be known. I do agree that if her foot hit my thigh that I over led it.
>
> Read on to learn how "dancing for the woman" is the best way to improve AND the best way to make the woman happy. It's a
mindset. But, if you stick with it, you'll get it ...
>
> I don't agree that, if that happened, then it could imply that the woman is not yet skilled enough to control her boleo. Oiy!
Women, do you hear that? What a mindset! I dance with a phenominal follower and, if I want, I can easily make her foot hit my
thigh. I have been blessed to have had two long-term partners that I consider to be amongst the best followers in the U.S.A. And, I
can tell you that I CAN lead both to do all kinds of boleos, sometimes, with their foot touching my thigh. Read on. You'll find
that most women find it amazing!
>
> I really think that the only time that a woman might want to "control" her boleo is when the dance floor is crowded. And, even
THEN, I have the mindset that if I am dancing with a woman that likes to do huge boleos even when I lead small boleos, and the dance
floor is tight, that it is up to ME to, perhaps, not lead boleos. Hey leaders! Stop blaming your followers!
>
> A great leader will always see that the shortcomings of a movement, or feeling, in tango, is his fault, not his follower's fault.
Women are always telling me that other leaders spend a lifetime telling them that this is their fault and that is their fault.
>
> So, I ask them. "Do you like their dancing?"
> When they say, "Not really".
> I say, "Well, that isn't your fault either.".
>
> At any rate, I CAN make my follower's foot hit my thigh with a contra-boleo and, when I do, it ISN'T because she isn't good
enough! Have I said, "Oiy!", yet?
>
> I do alot of moves that involve a strong twist of the woman's waist because the feedback that I get is "Do more of those!!!".
Once in a great while, with the contra-boleo, her foot touches my thigh. If I mention it. She says that, actually, she likes it ...
EVERYTIME! Imagine that! It wasn't a problem! She liked it!
>
> I get that some women might be shy when they reply that they liked it. I get that once in a great while, I lead just a touch too
far ... and I correct for it. Hey! Imagine that! It wasn't her fault, again!!!
>
> Furthermore, must we ALWAYS lead "snappy" boleos? How boring!
>
> Is it really true that, after the sharp change of direction, it's important to slow the woman down so that the over-rotation
doesn't occur? Sounds like 1-dimensional dancing to me!
>
> Remember, if you always dance for the woman, you will not find her wrong and you will be delighted to find that every dance is
different!
>
> So, for example, after the sharp change of direction, many different feels or techniques could be used. Not just the one
described in the last post! Try it. I promise you, when you learn that level of control, she'll like it!
>
> Again, women are always confiding in me that men are making them wrong. Again, I tell them that if the guy is doing that, then
let it go. He probably isn't going to realize, for a longtime to come, that if he learns to control the dance through his lead,
women will like dancing with him more. It's his shortcoming, not hers!
>
> Keith, if you have a problem with the way I stated something, try being nice. And, PLEASE, don't follow up MY 1-dimensional
statement with ANOTHER of your own!
>
> P.S.: To all of my followers: Do your boleos just the way you like. I will not say that you are not skilled enough if there was
a problem. Matter of fact, I might just change my lead a little, next time. Tango IS a conversation, right?
>
> Besides, if I dance for you rather than for me, you might actaully want to dance with me, again!
>
>
>
>
>Keith keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
> I don't agree that if the woman's leg swings around too far and hits the man's leg, that this demonstrates that the Boleo has been
led
>correctly. On the contrary, it could easily demonstrate that the man has over-rotated or has injected too much energy into the lead.
It
>could also demonstrate that the lady is not yet skilled enough to control her Boleo. Either way, there's a problem.
>
>It's important to remember that leading a snappy Boleo doesn't depend on force but on timing the change of direction precisely. And
>after the sharp change of direction, it's important to slow the woman down so that the over-rotation described in the previous post
>doesn't occur.
>
>Keith, HK
>
>On Fri Dec 14 8:33 , Tango For Her sent:
>
>>And, one surprising aspect, for the woman, is that if it is led correctly, her foot will wind far enough around to hit you in your
>thigh! They tend to like the fact that they appear so flexible.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 01:18:21 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower ... and don't blame
others!!!
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Just to clarify my question to followers in my last post and to avoid any further misunderstading.
"If a guy overled a Boleo, would you follow through and hit the guy's leg or
would you control the Boleo and not hit his leg?"
Clarification - I'm not talking about a Low Boleo which can be overturned to cause the girl's leg to swing behind the guy's leg
resulting in a Gancho.
I'm talking about a High Boleo where the girl's raised leg hits the outside of the guy's leg. I'm assuming that's the Boleo that TFH
was talking about. TFH, correct me if I'm wrong.
Keith, HK
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:08:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: keith@tangohk.com, tango-l@mit.edu
Sorry, Keith. Looking through your recent posts, I see that you are, actually, one of the rare leaders that also gets tired of all of the mulititudes of leaders, even teachers, that really have a mindset that a lot of things are the follower's fault in tango. (And, trust me. That is told to me by more women than I can count.) I commend you for straightening me out ... in a nice way.
As for your last question, I prefer the follower who trusts me. Many dance with their eyes closed. I think that, with a contra boleo, they are at my mercy, anyway. Again, when I lead it correctly (gulp!), there's enough energy in it to light up a city! So, I wouldn't expect her to be in the situation to put the brakes on. It's a pretty free-flying move.
Besides, the floor our my canvas and the woman is my brush. If I have built up her confidence to the point that she feels secure and becomes elastic, I wouldn't expect her to be trying to correct for my overwinding of her body. It takes away from the ultimate art. And, we have to remember. The women are the ones that can dance! We're just along for the ride, suggesting what we would like to see!
Keith is right. It WOULD be nice if the followers, out there, would speak up.
Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
Just to clarify my question to followers in my last post and to avoid any further misunderstading.
"If a guy overled a Boleo, would you follow through and hit the guy's leg or
would you control the Boleo and not hit his leg?"
Clarification - I'm not talking about a Low Boleo which can be overturned to cause the girl's leg to swing behind the guy's leg
resulting in a Gancho.
I'm talking about a High Boleo where the girl's raised leg hits the outside of the guy's leg. I'm assuming that's the Boleo that TFH
was talking about. TFH, correct me if I'm wrong.
Keith, HK
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 00:50:24 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
"the floor is my canvas and the woman is my brush. If I have built up her
confidence to the point that she feels secure and becomes elastic, I
wouldn't expect her to be trying to correct for my overwinding of her body.
It takes away from the ultimate art. And, we have to remember. The women
are the ones that can dance! We're just along for the ride, suggesting what
we would like to see!"
>
why does reading this make me feel uncomfortable? Starting with the first
sentence, I was beginning to cringe. And arriving at the last two sentences,
no, sorry, Tango-for-her, the flounces that you see swishing by the door is
me outta here...
sincerely
Astrid ; )
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 09:54:53 -0700
From: <doug@swingfusion.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>, <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
<TFH wrote> "the floor is my canvas and the woman is my brush. If I have
built up her
confidence to the point that she feels secure and becomes elastic, I
wouldn't expect her to be trying to correct for my overwinding of her body.
It takes away from the ultimate art. And, we have to remember. The women
are the ones that can dance! We're just along for the ride, suggesting what
we would like to see!" </TFH>
Then <Astrid wrote> "why does reading this make me feel uncomfortable?
Starting with the first
sentence, I was beginning to cringe. And arriving at the last two sentences,
no, sorry, Tango-for-her, the flounces that you see swishing by the door is
me outta here..." </Astrid>
Thank you Astrid. Is good, and rewarding, to hear what women want from
dance. I work very hard on my lead to create full conversation with my
follow. My regular partner would walk after the word "canvas", never mind
the rest. The minute she might even imagine I think she is brush, or
instrument, or anything but full partner in the dance is the day I look for
new partner. And the day I say that I can't dance but am only there to
dance her is the day she tells me to go take dance lessons and learn how to
dance too. Oh. That has already happened. :-)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:58:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: Astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>, tango-l@mit.edu
Again, I have been blessed to have the best teachers in the world. I can only relay what they teach me. If you want to dance with guys that don't see the floor as a canvas, then, they might be confined to patterns. Does anyone else out there agree that there are no patterns in Argentine tango?
Go insult a younger dancer. Please! Thinking of the floor as my canvas as opened my mind. There is only the side step, back step, front step and the pivot. After that, it is the leader's imagine. So, pleeeeeeeeeeeese, save your insults for someone else!
Astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:
"the floor is my canvas and the woman is my brush. If I have built up her
confidence to the point that she feels secure and becomes elastic, I
wouldn't expect her to be trying to correct for my overwinding of her body.
It takes away from the ultimate art. And, we have to remember. The women
are the ones that can dance! We're just along for the ride, suggesting what
we would like to see!"
>
why does reading this make me feel uncomfortable? Starting with the first
sentence, I was beginning to cringe. And arriving at the last two sentences,
no, sorry, Tango-for-her, the flounces that you see swishing by the door is
me outta here...
sincerely
Astrid ; )
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:41:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: doug@swingfusion.com, tango-l@mit.edu, astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp
In response to Doug's response ... I must elaborate on the freedom that I get from being open minded about the dance ...
I know it's a generalization, but, I find that, "in general" women have more of an inherent musicality in their bodies than men. If anyone disagrees. Fine. But, I, for one, am very glad that I recognize that. Women can dance!!! Create a dance, or a canvas, suggest your leads, and notice that it is she who fills your soul with dance. You know how a step is three parts? You suggest the direction and feel of the step, she steps and you follow? Good. Now, imagine the floor as your canvas as you become the artist who is suggesting the first part of the step. NOW, as she steps AND YOU FOLLOW, notice that it is her musicality that make you glad to be following her through that step.
Now, I know that someone out there is going to tear that paragraph up and throw it back at me. But, my point is to stick with it and see if you can admit that women have this incredible musicality in their souls. Women can dance, usually better than men, and I am very glad that I can focus on that. I think I bring alot to the table. But, I am glad that she brings more! Besides, have you ever tried dancing with a man? Even a man who has trained as a follower? I?ll take the musicality that is in a woman?s body anyday!
And, if you take the large segment of the tango leaders who have not moved past patterns to the freedom where there is only the front step, back step, side step and the pivot, you have to agree that they could learn from thinking of the woman as an instrument, even a paint brush.
Think of all the leaders that are still stuck in the patterns and haven?t had the free brain cycles, yet, to see that the dance is actually between the steps. Next time you are dancing, and you are in those in betweens, notice that the woman has been there, all along, waiting for you to ... hear the music!
Years ago, I was beginning to perform, so, I went for lessons with ... well, one of those genious teachers. I remember her instructing me to dance small moves, then big moves, then small, etc. Show some variety. You know? I also remember her telling me to think of the floor as my canvas and think of some artistic shapes to draw with my partner's feet. As usual, she was pure geneous. And, for those of you who just want to write back and forth about this, actually get out there and think of your partner as the brush. Here?s something amazing. It puts your mind into a diffferent context. For me, if I think of a brush handle, long and straight. Then, I see that it takes a bit of energy to actually move that brush a long way across the floor in one step. I am glad that I can think in those terms.
Sometimes, when I feel that my dancing has gotten small for too long, I remember her and think of my partner as a brush and the floor as my canvas. My partner loves my dancing. She wishes others had the imagination that I do. I realize that others might like my dancing, too, but be offended by choices of words. Thank God, when some of those nice feeling moves come out, I don't talk during the dance!
Hey, leaders out there, try taking this on ...
1. If you are so sure your partner would walk away from you if you meantioned thinking of the floor as a canvas and her as a brush, how about taking on a little homework and ask her! We would love to hear alot of opinions on this.
2. If you are so sure your partner would walk away from you if you thought of her as any kind of instrument, then, ponder this (and then try it and reap the benefits) ...
Listen to the violin when you dance. Make the dance about the violin. Hell, think of your partner as the violin. Report back, now, ya hear?
Listen to the bandoneon. Same exercise applies.
Listen to the singer. Maybe, even, imagine that your partner is singing to you.
Imagine that your partner is a rock, a feather, quick like a humming bird, a snare drum. I don?t know. You make up the list.
Heck, even try imagining that your partner is your sister! I don?t know. YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING! Matter of fact, I?ll have to try that. Women always want more out of the dance. It can take a little creativity.
Myself, I have had classes like this. I am soooo glad that I have had classes like this!!! And, today, my partners are glad that I think of these things and, sometimes, think of her in these terms.
doug@swingfusion.com wrote: "the floor is my canvas and the woman is my brush. If I have
built up her
confidence to the point that she feels secure and becomes elastic, I
wouldn't expect her to be trying to correct for my overwinding of her body.
It takes away from the ultimate art. And, we have to remember. The women
are the ones that can dance! We're just along for the ride, suggesting what
we would like to see!"
Then "why does reading this make me feel uncomfortable?
Starting with the first
sentence, I was beginning to cringe. And arriving at the last two sentences,
no, sorry, Tango-for-her, the flounces that you see swishing by the door is
me outta here..."
Thank you Astrid. Is good, and rewarding, to hear what women want from
dance. I work very hard on my lead to create full conversation with my
follow. My regular partner would walk after the word "canvas", never mind
the rest. The minute she might even imagine I think she is brush, or
instrument, or anything but full partner in the dance is the day I look for
new partner. And the day I say that I can't dance but am only there to
dance her is the day she tells me to go take dance lessons and learn how to
dance too. Oh. That has already happened. :-)
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:26:57 -0500
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
While I understand the reason for this thread's title, I've never liked it. Blame doesn't lead to improvement. Holding yourself accountable and desiring to change is what leads to improvement. Everybody DOESN'T want to get better and are content with their dancing level.
The title implies that leaders and followers are adequate. I went to a NY milonga last night. I had great difficulty leading women who pushed hard, outwardly, on their right arm. They pushed me off the alignment of our bodies and crippled themselves when executing ochos. You can't step backwards in one direction if you're pushing hard on the right arm in the opposite direction. A lot of people confuse stiffness with firmness. Dancer's frames should be firm, NOT stiff. A man's stiff frame can't lead and a woman's stiff frame RESISTS the lead which is why I bristle when a woman says "give me resistance." To paraphrase Daniel Trenner, "when your partner tells you to push on the hand,
(s)he is telling you how bad a dancer the person is."
I had two tandas with women with firm frames and we went around the floor like skaters on ice, with minimal effort. Then, there were some women who were so stiff I could barely lead anything. If I couldn't lead any woman, that would definitely send me a message. But if I can lead some, but not others....HMMMM!!! Women should ask the same question. "If I can follow some men, but not others, what is the difference in the leaders?"
It's important to know what each person is accountable for and what is beyond their control. Taking the blame for what is beyond your control will lead to frustration.
Michael
Washington, DC
Spending New Year's Eve at Dance Manhattan in NY
Looking forward to spring and the Atlanta Tango Festival
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:50:37 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> writes:
> I know it's a generalization, but, I find that, "in general"
> women have more of an inherent musicality in their bodies
> than men.
<sarcasm on>
Clearly this is true, since the vast majority of
musicians, both in rock bands and symphony orchestras,
are women, and women, in general, completely dominate
the music industry.
<sarcasm off>
Now let's get to the truth of the matter--any
advantage women have in dancing comes from their being
shunted off to dance class at an early age, while the
boys were playing sports and/or running around in the
woods with toy guns pretending to be on army patrol.
The idea that women somehow "have more of an inherent
musicality in their bodies" than men is patent nonsense.
Huck
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:47:30 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Tango For Her wrote:
> 1. If you are so sure your partner would walk away from you if
> you meantioned thinking of the floor as a canvas and her as a brush,
> how about taking on a little homework and ask her!
> We would love to hear alot of opinions on this.
I asked my regular dance partner an opinion. The comment was:
"is this guy for real"? For the sake of argument, I answered
yes, and she burst out in laughter.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:49:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Cool! All women are different! And, there's no definition that says that I am right! Sooooo, try the exercise and don't tell her! :o)
Oh, and if she says anything about your dancing after that, let us know!
Is this how they made "Days of Our Lives"? ;o)
Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> wrote:
Tango For Her wrote:
> 1. If you are so sure your partner would walk away from you if
> you meantioned thinking of the floor as a canvas and her as a brush,
> how about taking on a little homework and ask her!
> We would love to hear alot of opinions on this.
I asked my regular dance partner an opinion. The comment was:
"is this guy for real"? For the sake of argument, I answered
yes, and she burst out in laughter.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:58:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>, tango-l@mit.edu
Hehe. I don't hold any patents!
I have to agree, in part. I can dance with a woman who is heavier (in weight), but dances light as a feather. She must have "learned" that somewhere!
I know, from classes, that dancing with a man, again heavier in weight, and just leading something like a pivot is not a joyous occassion. Yet, dancing with a woman who is completely new to the dance, it IS joyous to just play with a pivot.
Of course, there is the part of me that finds inate pleasure in finding the least little bit of elasticity in a woman's body. I think it must be a learned response. "If I have provided her with a movement that allows her to be elastic, she must like it. With a man, that wouldn't be true." I admit that I must have been conditioned to think that.
Still, I am sticking with my single-minded thought that women have this inate musicality or sense that being elastic is good and men blow in the wind like rocks. It's just me and my silly little world. :o)
After writing all of that, Huck, I have to agree with you whole-heartedly. But, I'm still sticking to my way of thinking. It's my whole mindset on the dance floor. What would I do without it? -Oh, God! Don't answer that!
Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu> wrote:
Tango For Her writes:
> I know it's a generalization, but, I find that, "in general"
> women have more of an inherent musicality in their bodies
> than men.
Clearly this is true, since the vast majority of
musicians, both in rock bands and symphony orchestras,
are women, and women, in general, completely dominate
the music industry.
Now let's get to the truth of the matter--any
advantage women have in dancing comes from their being
shunted off to dance class at an early age, while the
boys were playing sports and/or running around in the
woods with toy guns pretending to be on army patrol.
The idea that women somehow "have more of an inherent
musicality in their bodies" than men is patent nonsense.
Huck
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:29:27 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] [OT] Men|Women|Dancing Ability [WAS Re: Don't blame
your follower]
To: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Interesting. I get to the same conclusion (boys weren't encouraged to
develop dance skills) but by a different explanation.
Huck Kennedy wrote:
>
> Now let's get to the truth of the matter--any
> advantage women have in dancing comes from their being
> shunted off to dance class at an early age, while the
> boys were playing sports and/or running around in the
> woods with toy guns pretending to be on army patrol.
> The idea that women somehow "have more of an inherent
> musicality in their bodies" than men is patent nonsense.
>
> Huck
Most girls in my neighborhood were shunted off to gymnastics, tennis
camp, piano lessons and karate self-defense classes. Some got dance
training but maybe they didn't stay with it because a ballet instructor
swatted their legs with a wooden blackboard pointer to the point of
making welts, like mine did. (And I still dance.) Some went on for
lots of ballet, jazz, tap, etc. but not many. I come from a US
middle-class suburban background; other social strata would be
different, my uncle made everyone on the farm learn square dancing and
two-step.
I don't think dance lessons have anything to do with the fact that, if
you go to a random WASP wedding** or other event with a dance floor and
a band, you will see almost every woman not in a wheelchair out on the
dance floor at some point, but only a minority of the men. (**This
observation doesn't apply to the many ethnic and cultural groups in the
US which have continuously valued dancing and partner dancing, including
African American culture.)
I would say the difference in US male/female dance skill is more
attributable to changes in pop culture. In the 60's everyone started
hopping around to the Beatles and Motown rather than partner dancing.
Parents didn't bother to teach the kids because the kids were not
interested in anything that wasn't a complete break from tradition. The
mid 70's brought in this era of machismo where it was all of a sudden
extremely unmasculine for the boys to hop around. Also, along with the
machismo was this hyperreal seriousness invested in one's coolness and
badness, at every waking moment. Guys would not admit that they liked
to dance, that was an invitation to be ridiculed and humiliated. Plus
if they looked a little goofy trying do something, it was the end of the
universe. I realize that men are always under pressure to perform well
and this creates great anxiety about dancing and leading, but I am
talking about a cultural phenomenon far more extreme.
Boys were only allowed to express themselves to music in that era in
limited ways. If they liked music they would invariably buy an electric
guitar and form a rock band with their buddies. Hence the universal
adoration of rock stars and the popularity of Guitar Hero I, II and III.
My school dances were filled with power rock, boys huddled on one side
of the room showing each other their killer air guitar performances to
Stairway to Heaven and Smoke On the Water, and girls hopping around in
groups to some of the power rock and then going off to the bathroom or
out to smoke during the extended guitar solos. Disco came in, had a
brief heyday and made it OK for men to dance and then was satirized and
rejected overwhelmingly by macho WASP culture (a wooden cache of disco
records was exploded in Chicago by radio jock Steve Dahl at a baseball
game, turning the crowd into a mob burning records and smashing disco
mirror balls in the stands, in the rock concert equivalent of a soccer
riot. People came from all over the country to attend this).
Largely for the above reasons, I think, a large age group of men
spanning many eras, just aren't comfortable with dancing. And they
cringe when they see the guys on 'Dancing With The Stars' wearing
spandex and gliding around...no matter how masterful and powerful the
dancing might be. Everyone my dad's age dances. Nobody my brother's
age dances. The men I know between 25 and 55 who dance are a distinct
minority. At least two thirds of the men I know in this age group who
dance were not born here.
And then came that Gap commercial with some manly aerial throwing around
of girls to manly jump blues music. Some US kids decided partner
dancing was interesting. I know dozens of men under 25 who think it's
cool to dance even if they don't. At some point many of them go out and
learn basic swing and salsa so they can dance a little bit. And there's
Dance Dance Revolution: one of my middle-aged friends recently said that
he was very happy that the arcade game made it "okay" for his son to
learn to enjoy dancing.
Men from other cultures seem to be much more comfortable with themselves
in relation to dancing. And back to Huck's point, a lot of schools in
other countries *do* require learning partner dancing at some point.
CS
I think the body slamming in punk music and grunge rock made dancing
acceptably masculine again in the US. The knife fighting and foot
swipes cited in the endless debates about some of the elements of tango
seem to me to be an interesting parallel to the violence in punk. (I'm
not saying the aesthetic is at all similar or appealing, I'm not saying
knife fighting is the same as slam dancing, I'm not saying punk music is
as worthy as tango music, and I am not inviting this to become Yet
Another 'origins of tango' thread or an 'expressions of outrage against
any comparison between punk and tango' thread.)
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
copyrights ? contracts ? collections ? corporations
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 15:04:28 -0500
From: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: tango-L@mit.edu
(...as she ventures, a little timidly, out from her much safer lurker
position.....so remember, this is my first time :) )
Bravo Doug and Astrid!! I am a woman who both leads and follows - many
times back and forth during a single evening, depending on the
crowd...and while there is an obvious difference between the two - I am
a equal partner in the dance no matter which role I have....once I was
watching a beautiful woman dance with a man who was leading - really
admiring her adornments, musicality, beautiful footwork, and nuance - I
couldn't wait to dance with her - when a guy standing next to me said,
"that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin......." yuck!!
This passionate, beautiful dancer described as an inanimate object that
he "uses," Maybe it is oversensitive to have such a strong reaction to
imagery that other folks use to describe their tango....but part of it
comes from the experience of being told "follows only really need to
learn to follow," having inexperienced (or worse, experienced) leaders
wrestling with you to "get" gancho after gancho after gancho - and
those are usually the same leads who will violently twist your
shoulders over and over to get you do the boleo they demand, and, my
favorite, the leads who will stop dead in the middle of the floor
during a milonga and scold, "you were supposed to do...whatever," to
which the best response, that most follows are too gracious to say, is,
"you were supposed to lead it...."
(...now she tentatively hits the send button, a little worried about
the reaction she'll get but committed to being part of a
community/conversation about a dance she is obsessed with.....)
b
Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet?
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks!
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Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 09:44:04 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: tango-L@mit.edu
B,
"you were supposed to lead it...." is absolutely the correct response and I
just wish ladies would use it more often. And, when a man tries to teach a
lady a figure during a milonga, I just wish she'd say ... "don't teach me,
just lead me". Because if he can't 'just lead it', than he certainly can't
dance it well enough to try teach it.
And, to the comment .. "that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin..".
I agree - yuck!! is the perfect response.
B, if this is your first post, please, let's hear more from you.
Keith, HK
On Mon Dec 17 4:04 , buffmilonguera@aol.com sent:
>(...as she ventures, a little timidly, out from her much safer lurker
>position.....so remember, this is my first time :) )
>
>Bravo Doug and Astrid!! I am a woman who both leads and follows - many
>times back and forth during a single evening, depending on the
>crowd...and while there is an obvious difference between the two - I am
>a equal partner in the dance no matter which role I have....once I was
>watching a beautiful woman dance with a man who was leading - really
>admiring her adornments, musicality, beautiful footwork, and nuance - I
>couldn't wait to dance with her - when a guy standing next to me said,
>"that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin......." yuck!!
>This passionate, beautiful dancer described as an inanimate object that
>he "uses," Maybe it is oversensitive to have such a strong reaction to
>imagery that other folks use to describe their tango....but part of it
>comes from the experience of being told "follows only really need to
>learn to follow," having inexperienced (or worse, experienced) leaders
>wrestling with you to "get" gancho after gancho after gancho - and
>those are usually the same leads who will violently twist your
>shoulders over and over to get you do the boleo they demand, and, my
>favorite, the leads who will stop dead in the middle of the floor
>during a milonga and scold, "you were supposed to do...whatever," to
>which the best response, that most follows are too gracious to say, is,
>"you were supposed to lead it...."
>
>(...now she tentatively hits the send button, a little worried about
>the reaction she'll get but committed to being part of a
>community/conversation about a dance she is obsessed with.....)
>
>b
>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:37:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: tango-L@mit.edu
I agree. ?... playing her like a fine violin? can be (1) meant in many ways and (2) taken in many ways. Air to caution! I, personally, would find that statement to be offensive.
I have to say, though, that you could divide this issue into two camps: (1) Leaders who listen to the conversation that takes place in the dance and (2) Leaders who strongly expect their followers to follow as was described in a previous email.
(1) Leaders who listen to the conversation that takes place in the dance:
A leader with a mind toward the conversation in the dance might imagine the quick strokes of the bow or the long feathery movement of the bow. Thinking of that inanimate object and thinking of his follower at the same time *could* result in the follower being thought of as an inanimate object, I guess. As long as he is feeling the reaction to *his bow* and changes his lead correspondingly, then, I say, enjoy the dance! The result might be quite astounding. The follower might find that the conversation has climbed to a new level! My personal feeling is that a leader who can change the way he approaches the dance has an open mind and is working on improving his dance.
(2) Leaders who strongly expect their followes to follow (and are tuned in to the conversation)
That would be a different topic. I didn?t intend that, AT ALL, when I started this thread.
Thank you, B.
Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
B,
"you were supposed to lead it...." is absolutely the correct response and I
just wish ladies would use it more often. And, when a man tries to teach a
lady a figure during a milonga, I just wish she'd say ... "don't teach me,
just lead me". Because if he can't 'just lead it', than he certainly can't
dance it well enough to try teach it.
And, to the comment .. "that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin..".
I agree - yuck!! is the perfect response.
B, if this is your first post, please, let's hear more from you.
Keith, HK
On Mon Dec 17 4:04 , buffmilonguera@aol.com sent:
>(...as she ventures, a little timidly, out from her much safer lurker
>position.....so remember, this is my first time :) )
>
>Bravo Doug and Astrid!! I am a woman who both leads and follows - many
>times back and forth during a single evening, depending on the
>crowd...and while there is an obvious difference between the two - I am
>a equal partner in the dance no matter which role I have....once I was
>watching a beautiful woman dance with a man who was leading - really
>admiring her adornments, musicality, beautiful footwork, and nuance - I
>couldn't wait to dance with her - when a guy standing next to me said,
>"that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin......." yuck!!
>This passionate, beautiful dancer described as an inanimate object that
>he "uses," Maybe it is oversensitive to have such a strong reaction to
>imagery that other folks use to describe their tango....but part of it
>comes from the experience of being told "follows only really need to
>learn to follow," having inexperienced (or worse, experienced) leaders
>wrestling with you to "get" gancho after gancho after gancho - and
>those are usually the same leads who will violently twist your
>shoulders over and over to get you do the boleo they demand, and, my
>favorite, the leads who will stop dead in the middle of the floor
>during a milonga and scold, "you were supposed to do...whatever," to
>which the best response, that most follows are too gracious to say, is,
>"you were supposed to lead it...."
>
>(...now she tentatively hits the send button, a little worried about
>the reaction she'll get but committed to being part of a
>community/conversation about a dance she is obsessed with.....)
>
>b
>
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:08:25 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: "tango-L@mit.edu" <tango-L@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0256643B9B@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
The 'playing her like a violin' comments are generally offensive but have their place. I reserve them for when I am trying to get other guys who may be sceptical of dancing in general and tango in particular interested in dancing tango. In that case, where I am trying to attract new leaders, I have tacit approval from followers to push the envelope of good taste ;-).
Victor Bennetts
Tango For Her>
I agree. "... playing her like a fine violin" can be (1) meant in many ways and (2) taken in many ways. Air to caution! I, personally, would find that statement to be offensive.
I have to say, though, that you could divide this issue into two camps: (1) Leaders who listen to the conversation that takes place in the dance and (2) Leaders who strongly expect their followers to follow as was described in a previous email.
(1) Leaders who listen to the conversation that takes place in the dance:
A leader with a mind toward the conversation in the dance might imagine the quick strokes of the bow or the long feathery movement of the bow. Thinking of that inanimate object and thinking of his follower at the same time *could* result in the follower being thought of as an inanimate object, I guess. As long as he is feeling the reaction to *his bow* and changes his lead correspondingly, then, I say, enjoy the dance! The result might be quite astounding. The follower might find that the conversation has climbed to a new level! My personal feeling is that a leader who can change the way he approaches the dance has an open mind and is working on improving his dance.
(2) Leaders who strongly expect their followes to follow (and are tuned in to the conversation)
That would be a different topic. I didn't intend that, AT ALL, when I started this thread.
Thank you, B.
Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
B,
"you were supposed to lead it...." is absolutely the correct response and I
just wish ladies would use it more often. And, when a man tries to teach a
lady a figure during a milonga, I just wish she'd say ... "don't teach me,
just lead me". Because if he can't 'just lead it', than he certainly can't
dance it well enough to try teach it.
And, to the comment .. "that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin..".
I agree - yuck!! is the perfect response.
B, if this is your first post, please, let's hear more from you.
Keith, HK
On Mon Dec 17 4:04 , buffmilonguera@aol.com sent:
>(...as she ventures, a little timidly, out from her much safer lurker
>position.....so remember, this is my first time :) )
>
>Bravo Doug and Astrid!! I am a woman who both leads and follows - many
>times back and forth during a single evening, depending on the
>crowd...and while there is an obvious difference between the two - I am
>a equal partner in the dance no matter which role I have....once I was
>watching a beautiful woman dance with a man who was leading - really
>admiring her adornments, musicality, beautiful footwork, and nuance - I
>couldn't wait to dance with her - when a guy standing next to me said,
>"that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin......." yuck!!
>This passionate, beautiful dancer described as an inanimate object that
>he "uses," Maybe it is oversensitive to have such a strong reaction to
>imagery that other folks use to describe their tango....but part of it
>comes from the experience of being told "follows only really need to
>learn to follow," having inexperienced (or worse, experienced) leaders
>wrestling with you to "get" gancho after gancho after gancho - and
>those are usually the same leads who will violently twist your
>shoulders over and over to get you do the boleo they demand, and, my
>favorite, the leads who will stop dead in the middle of the floor
>during a milonga and scold, "you were supposed to do...whatever," to
>which the best response, that most follows are too gracious to say, is,
>"you were supposed to lead it...."
>
>(...now she tentatively hits the send button, a little worried about
>the reaction she'll get but committed to being part of a
>community/conversation about a dance she is obsessed with.....)
>
>b
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This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system.
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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:16:39 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
Offensive for whom?
For the ones that have no idea what tango is.
For the women, that don't understand they have to play a role.
You may be a good person, but in a play, you may play bad character.
Same in tango - you may play the role of a instrument. But don't forget that
the beauty is emitted by this same "instrument". So why not doing it - show
the beauty?
I find nothing offensive to play the role of a Stradivarius in the hands of
a talented musician.
But you, ladies, are free to feel offended and miss the whole point.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
>
> The 'playing her like a violin' comments are generally offensive but have
> their place. I reserve them for when I am trying to get other guys who may
> be sceptical of dancing in general and tango in particular interested in
> dancing tango. In that case, where I am trying to attract new leaders, I
> have tacit approval from followers to push the envelope of good taste ;-).
>
> Victor Bennetts
>
> Tango For Her>
> I agree. "... playing her like a fine violin" can be (1) meant in many
> ways and (2) taken in many ways. Air to caution! I, personally, would
> find that statement to be offensive.
>
> I have to say, though, that you could divide this issue into two camps:
> (1) Leaders who listen to the conversation that takes place in the dance
> and (2) Leaders who strongly expect their followers to follow as was
> described in a previous email.
>
> (1) Leaders who listen to the conversation that takes place in the dance:
>
> A leader with a mind toward the conversation in the dance might imagine
> the quick strokes of the bow or the long feathery movement of the bow.
> Thinking of that inanimate object and thinking of his follower at the same
> time *could* result in the follower being thought of as an inanimate
> object, I guess. As long as he is feeling the reaction to *his bow* and
> changes his lead correspondingly, then, I say, enjoy the dance! The
> result might be quite astounding. The follower might find that the
> conversation has climbed to a new level! My personal feeling is that a
> leader who can change the way he approaches the dance has an open mind and
> is working on improving his dance.
>
> (2) Leaders who strongly expect their followes to follow (and are tuned
> in to the conversation)
>
> That would be a different topic. I didn't intend that, AT ALL, when I
> started this thread.
>
> Thank you, B.
>
>
> Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
> B,
>
> "you were supposed to lead it...." is absolutely the correct response and
> I
> just wish ladies would use it more often. And, when a man tries to teach a
> lady a figure during a milonga, I just wish she'd say ... "don't teach me,
> just lead me". Because if he can't 'just lead it', than he certainly can't
> dance it well enough to try teach it.
>
> And, to the comment .. "that's great! he is playing her like a fine
> violin..".
> I agree - yuck!! is the perfect response.
>
> B, if this is your first post, please, let's hear more from you.
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
>
> On Mon Dec 17 4:04 , buffmilonguera@aol.com sent:
>
>>(...as she ventures, a little timidly, out from her much safer lurker
>>position.....so remember, this is my first time :) )
>>
>>Bravo Doug and Astrid!! I am a woman who both leads and follows - many
>>times back and forth during a single evening, depending on the
>>crowd...and while there is an obvious difference between the two - I am
>>a equal partner in the dance no matter which role I have....once I was
>>watching a beautiful woman dance with a man who was leading - really
>>admiring her adornments, musicality, beautiful footwork, and nuance - I
>>couldn't wait to dance with her - when a guy standing next to me said,
>>"that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin......." yuck!!
>>This passionate, beautiful dancer described as an inanimate object that
>>he "uses," Maybe it is oversensitive to have such a strong reaction to
>>imagery that other folks use to describe their tango....but part of it
>>comes from the experience of being told "follows only really need to
>>learn to follow," having inexperienced (or worse, experienced) leaders
>>wrestling with you to "get" gancho after gancho after gancho - and
>>those are usually the same leads who will violently twist your
>>shoulders over and over to get you do the boleo they demand, and, my
>>favorite, the leads who will stop dead in the middle of the floor
>>during a milonga and scold, "you were supposed to do...whatever," to
>>which the best response, that most follows are too gracious to say, is,
>>"you were supposed to lead it...."
>>
>>(...now she tentatively hits the send button, a little worried about
>>the reaction she'll get but committed to being part of a
>>community/conversation about a dance she is obsessed with.....)
>>
>>b
>
> **************** CAUTION - Disclaimer *****************
> This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended
> solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original
> message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail
> or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful.
> This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable
> precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may
> sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your
> own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves
> the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or
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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:55:04 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>, <tango-L@mit.edu>
> I find nothing offensive to play the role of a Stradivarius in the hands
> of
> a talented musician.
>
> But you, ladies, are free to feel offended and miss the whole point.
Talk like this is cheap if it comes from a man.
The point is that the whole tone of the statement of "playing her like a..."
whatever instrument tells me through intuition and experience that we are
not dealing here with a "talented musician" of the class of someone who'd
own a Stradivarius.
I'd rather be a broom in the hands of El Pulpo (was this him?) in that video
than to be manhandled by someone with the approach discussed above.
Just like a lover who thinks, he just needs to press those buttons described
in the manual he read can make a woman feel like a machine who has an
engineer fiddling around with it, the tangodancer's efforts in getting his
"instrument" to play what he wants may not be appreciated the way he
expected.
>
Victor:
>> The 'playing her like a violin' comments are generally offensive but have
>> their place.
>> And, to the comment .. "that's great! he is playing her like a fine
>> violin..".
>> I agree - yuck!! is the perfect response.
>>
>> B, if this is your first post, please, let's hear more from you.
>>
>> Keith, HK
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon Dec 17 4:04 , buffmilonguera@aol.com sent:
>>
once I was
>>>watching a beautiful woman dance with a man who was leading - really
>>>admiring her adornments, musicality, beautiful footwork, and nuance - I
>>>couldn't wait to dance with her - when a guy standing next to me said,
>>>"that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin......." yuck!!
>>>This passionate, beautiful dancer described as an inanimate object that
>>>he "uses," Maybe it is oversensitive to have such a strong reaction to
>>>imagery that other folks use to describe their tango....but part of it
>>>comes from the experience of being told "follows only really need to
>>>learn to follow," having inexperienced (or worse, experienced) leaders
>>>wrestling with you to "get" gancho after gancho after gancho - and
>>>those are usually the same leads who will violently twist your
>>>shoulders over and over to get you do the boleo they demand, and, my
>>>favorite, the leads who will stop dead in the middle of the floor
>>>during a milonga and scold, "you were supposed to do...whatever," to
>>>which the best response, that most follows are too gracious to say, is,
>>>"you were supposed to lead it...."
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:36:43 +0200
From: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: tango-l@mit.edu
format="flowed"
Playing the violin is not an easy task. In fact, it is among the most
difficult instruments. So, I do not agree that the expression gives us
association with someone who "reads the manual" and "presses buttons",
and expects machine-like behaviour.
Being fine tango instrument is difficult, and requires high skill
level from both partners. Otherwise, the lady reverts to being a
machine that tries to follow orders (marks) coming from the man.
Quoting Astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>:
>> I find nothing offensive to play the role of a Stradivarius in the hands
>> of
>> a talented musician.
>>
>> But you, ladies, are free to feel offended and miss the whole point.
>
> Talk like this is cheap if it comes from a man.
> The point is that the whole tone of the statement of "playing her like a..."
> whatever instrument tells me through intuition and experience that we are
> not dealing here with a "talented musician" of the class of someone who'd
> own a Stradivarius.
> I'd rather be a broom in the hands of El Pulpo (was this him?) in that video
> than to be manhandled by someone with the approach discussed above.
> Just like a lover who thinks, he just needs to press those buttons described
> in the manual he read can make a woman feel like a machine who has an
> engineer fiddling around with it, the tangodancer's efforts in getting his
> "instrument" to play what he wants may not be appreciated the way he
> expected.
>>
> Victor:
>>> The 'playing her like a violin' comments are generally offensive but have
>>> their place.
>
>
>>> And, to the comment .. "that's great! he is playing her like a fine
>>> violin..".
>>> I agree - yuck!! is the perfect response.
>>>
>>> B, if this is your first post, please, let's hear more from you.
>>>
>>> Keith, HK
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon Dec 17 4:04 , buffmilonguera@aol.com sent:
>>>
> once I was
>>>> watching a beautiful woman dance with a man who was leading - really
>>>> admiring her adornments, musicality, beautiful footwork, and nuance - I
>>>> couldn't wait to dance with her - when a guy standing next to me said,
>>>> "that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin......." yuck!!
>>>> This passionate, beautiful dancer described as an inanimate object that
>>>> he "uses," Maybe it is oversensitive to have such a strong reaction to
>>>> imagery that other folks use to describe their tango....but part of it
>>>> comes from the experience of being told "follows only really need to
>>>> learn to follow," having inexperienced (or worse, experienced) leaders
>>>> wrestling with you to "get" gancho after gancho after gancho - and
>>>> those are usually the same leads who will violently twist your
>>>> shoulders over and over to get you do the boleo they demand, and, my
>>>> favorite, the leads who will stop dead in the middle of the floor
>>>> during a milonga and scold, "you were supposed to do...whatever," to
>>>> which the best response, that most follows are too gracious to say, is,
>>>> "you were supposed to lead it...."
>
>
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:33:59 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
There is nothing about "beauty" and nothing about "playing roles" when a
woman is
compared to a finely tuned musical instrument in dancing, dear gentlemen.
No wonder, it upsets women !
It is about to be Finely Tuned ! Strings are tight, and ochos are crisp.
Resonance procudes loud musical sound, steps are sharp or smooth, no extra
note out of place. No noise.
A leader then has to know who to "play" this instrument, it means introduce
the right movements at the right time with the right amplitude, so that "the
violine" produces music so that anyone, first of all her, second of all you,
can enjoy.
Have you ever noticed the similarity of a musician playing an instrument to
a dancer?
He is dancing ! With his fingers, arms, body, even legs, and most of all -
spirit are dancing.
Are you?
Igor Polk.
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 06:34:54 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <antonst@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
<00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF3BD@stancosbs1.stanco.local>
"I find nothing offensive to play the role of a Stradivarius in the
hands of
a talented musician."
I think the objectionable part is not so much the comparison to a
Stradivarius, rather the proposal that it is a dumb innate
object/instrument through which the leader/musician expresses their
skill.
Anton
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:22:19 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> "I find nothing offensive to play the role of a Stradivarius in the
> hands of
>
> a talented musician."
>
> I think the objectionable part is not so much the comparison to a
> Stradivarius, rather the proposal that it is a dumb innate
> object/instrument through which the leader/musician expresses their
> skill.
If it was skill, Anton ! In that case I would find nothing offensive in it
either. I remember the days when I would think on the dance floor:"I am this
finely tuned instrument that responds to every subtle lead and this brute is
manhandling and abusing it." The fact is that men who think of their follows
(and just the word "follow" sets me on edge already. May I remind you that I
am a woman ?) as instruments, brushes or whatever to achieve their own
"artistic" expression are usually so full of themselves that they are barely
thinking of the person in their arms. Buffmilonguera mentioned those
experiences when the man forced her to execute every last step of his
combination "or else", yes, I have run into those types too.
"Tango for her", maybe you really should invest a little more time into
studying what you call "soft tango" to get the ladies to go with you to the
milongas, and good luck with your finding instructions for dancing on
youtube.
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:19:34 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0256643BA8@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
I agree with Astrid. Nothing looks uglier on the floor than some guy who thinks he is a great dancer doing a whole lot of intricate steps without any regard for his follower. You can see him in love with his own footwork and totally disregarding the woman. Connection to me means feeling with sensitivity and accuracy the woman's axis and her response to the mark and adjusting to them. For most of us this would be a work in progress because it is easy to learn a sequence but to learn to feel the position of the woman and her readiness to step is so much harder. On the rare occasions when I have nailed this I can feel this great flow of energy coming back to me from the follower and suddenly we are both free to do so much more.
Anyway with all this talk of violins, it reminded me of when I first got my violin as an eighteenth birthday present some years ago. It had sat under a house since the 20s and was full of insect droppings and muck. I took it to the local strings guy 'Lance', who fixed it up for me and said it was not a bad mass produced violin. He offered me fifty bucks for it. The first year I played on it the sound was pretty dull and flat, but as my skill improved and as I did classes and exams with it and played with other people all the work and effort I put into it seemed to seep into the wood itself somehow. After about four or five years it gradually took on a really sweet sound and somehow in harmony with the way that I played so that I almost felt like it was a part of me. When I took it back to Lance some time later incredibly he remembered the violin and also was amazed at the difference in sound that it produced. He smiled and said that now he would offer me a hundred bucks for !
it. So I wouldn't say the woman in tango is like a violin, but maybe the connection between the dancers.
Victor Bennetts
Astrid> I remember the days when I would think on the dance floor:"I am this
>finely tuned instrument that responds to every subtle lead and this >brute is
>manhandling and abusing it.
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Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:58:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I just checked my Bulk email folder and found a
bunch of emails that I missed. Sorry for the delay
in writing back.
I still say, to myself, "Don't blame my follower."
with rare exceptions. In general, I become a better
dancer by always looking to me to modify the dance.
If my follower is stiff arming me, then, I drop my
left hand. I take the crutch away from her. I find
that, if need be, I can MAKE my follower have much
better technique. Again, with the stiff arm
example, taking away her crutch, I can then follow
up with giving her only my chest to follow. She
usually comes around and learns more as did I when I
went through that exercise.
And, again, I did not have to blame my follower.
I blamed me for giving her that crutch.
Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
While I understand the reason for this thread's
title, I've never liked it. Blame doesn't lead to
improvement. Holding yourself accountable and
desiring to change is what leads to improvement.
Everybody DOESN'T want to get better and are content
with their dancing level.
The title implies that leaders and followers are
adequate. I went to a NY milonga last night. I had
great difficulty leading women who pushed hard,
outwardly, on their right arm. They pushed me off
the alignment of our bodies and crippled themselves
when executing ochos. You can't step backwards in
one direction if you're pushing hard on the right
arm in the opposite direction. A lot of people
confuse stiffness with firmness. Dancer's frames
should be firm, NOT stiff. A man's stiff frame can't
lead and a woman's stiff frame RESISTS the lead
which is why I bristle when a woman says "give me
resistance." To paraphrase Daniel Trenner, "when
your partner tells you to push on the hand,
(s)he is telling you how bad a dancer the person
is."
I had two tandas with women with firm frames and we
went around the floor like skaters on ice, with
minimal effort. Then, there were some women who were
so stiff I could barely lead anything. If I couldn't
lead any woman, that would definitely send me a
message. But if I can lead some, but not
others....HMMMM!!! Women should ask the same
question. "If I can follow some men, but not others,
what is the difference in the leaders?"
It's important to know what each person is
accountable for and what is beyond their control.
Taking the blame for what is beyond your control
will lead to frustration.
Michael
Washington, DC
Spending New Year's Eve at Dance Manhattan in NY
Looking forward to spring and the Atlanta Tango
Festival
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
