5073 Effective Practice
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 22:02:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Despite some recent acrimony on the 'L, the discussion
produced at least one intriguing idea. Namely Jake's
observation that no one of us is able to practice for our
students. The most effective exercise ever devised is
worthless if the students don't use it. While it is true
that we can not practice for our students, I think two
things separate successful teachers from the practitioners
of the 5 year plan. First, they motivate their students to
practice, and second, they teach their students how to
practice effectively. I'm sure most teachers can point to a
few of their beginners who are self motivated to practice.
They are the easy students, and they are definitely in the
minority.
And even those beginners who are self motivated to practice
usually try to repeat the steps they learned in class with
other beginners as partners. I think this is ineffective
practice. The students are basically training bad habits
into their body. Students cannot walk if they can't balance
on one foot. They can't pivot if they can't twist while
balanced on one foot. Learning to balance and to twist is
boring compared to fumbling around with your partner, but
it is effective. It produces results.
Likewise, to practice cadencia with a partner requires
knowing how to lead different size steps, different timing,
and weight changes. By the time students learn all that,
it's too late to start learning cadencia. (OK, it's never
too late, but that's the 5 year path.) For beginners to
practice musicality, they must dance alone. Of course, to
learn lead and follow, beginners must practice together. So
they need both. Motivate them to try this each week: 1.5
hours of class, 2.5 hours practicing alone (about 20 min
per day), and 2 hours with partners.
The difficulty in motivating students to practice is that
practice must become a new habit. That means a change in
lifestyle, no longer how minor that change might be. For
most people who feel constantly rushed, and pulled in many
different directions, finding even 20 minutes a day to
practice seems insurmountable. We have had some luck by
linking a tango practice habit to other habits. More on
that later.
Another difficulty is getting students to practice
effectively without supervision. People have been walking
for most of their lives. But, as Manuel pointed out, most
people don't complete each step with their weight on one
foot. Sending them home from their first class with
instructions to practice walking is not going to help this.
Before they can walk to one foot, they need to learn to
stand on one foot. And that they can certainly practice
alone. At the end of the first class, I ask all of the
students to stand on one foot. Then I take about 60 seconds
to explain the importance of balance. I have yet to meet a
beginner who can balance on one foot for 60 seconds. But
they all see that I can easily do it, while talking and
twisting to make eye contact with everyone in the room. I
tell them that for homework, they are to practice standing
on each leg every day. It's a new habit, and a boring
exercise, so I tie it to an existing habit. I tell them to
practice standing on one leg in the morning when they brush
their teeth, and the other leg at night when they brush
their teeth.
At the beginning of the second class, repeat the exercise.
Most people will not have improved because they didn't
practice. But a few will have shown marked improvement. A
little praise for those who do the work is enough to
motivate the others to get with the program. They get
assigned the same exercise the second week. Anyone who
managed a full 60 seconds gets to try it with their eyes
closed. (hehehe)
It occurs to me that someone one this list is going to
argue that learning to stand on one foot has nothing to do
with dancing tango. If you can't see the direct benefit of
balance to tango, at least consider the secondary benefit:
getting people into the habit of daily practice. Once they
can stand still on one foot, I presume that future tango
dancers need to develop enough balance to move their free
leg. Now they have to move out of the bathroom, or they
will kick the sink. Can they separate the tango practice
habit from the oral hygiene habit? Tune in next week for
the shocking answer.
Sean
P.S. Sorry for the dramatic cliff hanger. Maybe others will
share their experiences with motivating people to practice
while we wait...
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 03:03 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Students cannot walk if they can't balance on one foot.
Students, this is nonsense.
In the tango walk, she is balanced on (at least) two feet - one of hers
and one of yours. Plenty of girls in high heels can do this much better
than they can balance on one foot.
> They can't pivot if they can't twist while balanced on one foot.
More nonsense. What makes the pivot easy in the dance is that she has the
guy to twist against. Takes him away and make her balance on one foot, and
pivoting becomes ten times harder.
> For beginners to practice musicality, they must dance alone.
Still more nonsense. You can and do practice musicality every time you
dance musically in a couple. Regardless of level.
Students, a teacher who repeatedly says certain things /cannot/ be done is
presenting you with a learning opportunity. From seeing with your own eyes
that those things can be done, you'll learn how much notice to take of
that teacher.
--
Chris
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 23:52:09 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Chris,
Instead of constantly criticising the comments of others, please tell us - is there any effective practice or training that
a leader or follower can do to improve their Tango, other than actually dancing with a partner? If you know
anything at all about anything, I'm sure you must know the answer is yes, because anyone who is really good at
anything has spent countless hours practicing and training alone. So tell us Chris, what can we do to improve our
Tango - other than dancing with a partner?
Keith, HK
On Sun Jul 29 10:03 , "Chris, UK" sent:
>"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Students cannot walk if they can't balance on one foot.
>
>Students, this is nonsense.
>
>In the tango walk, she is balanced on (at least) two feet - one of hers
>and one of yours. Plenty of girls in high heels can do this much better
>than they can balance on one foot.
>
>> They can't pivot if they can't twist while balanced on one foot.
>
>More nonsense. What makes the pivot easy in the dance is that she has the
>guy to twist against. Takes him away and make her balance on one foot, and
>pivoting becomes ten times harder.
>
>> For beginners to practice musicality, they must dance alone.
>
>Still more nonsense. You can and do practice musicality every time you
>dance musically in a couple. Regardless of level.
>
>Students, a teacher who repeatedly says certain things /cannot/ be done is
>presenting you with a learning opportunity. From seeing with your own eyes
>that those things can be done, you'll learn how much notice to take of
>that teacher.
>
>--
>Chris
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 09:03:00 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:> They can't pivot if they can't twist while balanced on one foot.Chris replied: > More nonsense. What makes the pivot easy in the dance is that she has the > guy to twist against. Take him away and make her balance on one foot, and > pivoting becomes ten times harder.----------------------- A recent advanced class with Alex Krebs identified two different types of embrace, with completely different results in enabling the woman's pivot. In one, the embrace is firm, and this is what Chris is assuming, as she indeed has her leader to twist against, to provide the counter torque. But Chris, this is not the only possible embrace. In a very loose embrace, the woman must indeed pivot on her own power. And you're right, it is "ten times harder," mostly because it requires excellent balance, proving the validity of Trini/Sean's statement. OTOH, the statement is a little absolute to be completely true IMO, but what I believe IS c!
ompletely true is that the better they can twist while balanced on one foot, the easier they can pivot, regardless of how much or how little they're using their leader to provide the torque power (since embraces are usually somewhere in between the idealized extremes of "firm" and "loose.")
J
TangoMoments.com
PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail.
https://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:56:35 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
OK, ChrisJJ has revealed one of his assumptions in his arguments.
Can you suss it out?
On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 03:03:00 +0100, "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> said:
> "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Students cannot walk if they can't balance on one foot.
>
> Students, this is nonsense.
>
> In the tango walk, she is balanced on (at least) two feet - one
> of hers and one of yours. Plenty of girls in high heels can do
> this much better than they can balance on one foot.
And of the "girls" that can balance using me as an assist, I
have yet to meet one that dances well.
Using me for balance means I have to have balance for 2 people.
Up to a point I can fill the need. But I consider an act of
generosity and/or friendship. I always counterbalance it by
seeking out a partner who can stand up by herself.
In any case, advocating using the man as a crutch is demeaning
to both men and women. I'm not a day laborer, and they aren't
frail helpless things. As hard as I work on my dance, they can
at least get this one thing handled.
> > They can't pivot if they can't twist while balanced on one foot.
>
> More nonsense. What makes the pivot easy in the dance is that
> she has the guy to twist against. Takes him away and make her
> balance on one foot, and pivoting becomes ten times harder.
Given correct posture and technique it's effortless to pivot
on your own.
Sure it's easy to twist against the guy. But it's hard on
the guy.
> > For beginners to practice musicality, they must dance alone.
>
> Still more nonsense. You can and do practice musicality every
> time you dance musically in a couple. Regardless of level.
>
> Students, a teacher who repeatedly says certain things /cannot/
> be done is presenting you with a learning opportunity. From
> seeing with your own eyes that those things can be done, you'll
> learn how much notice to take of that teacher.
<sarcasm>
Yeah, I saw a beginner practicing musicality the other day. He
fell on top of his partner, but he did it on the music.
</sarcasm>
Call me an elitist prick, call me whatever , but I don't get
this fetish you have for dumbing down the dance for followers.
Christopher
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 22:54:35 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Chrisopher is right.
Chris, UK doesn't want girls to take classes, he doesn't want them to practice and he doesn't want them to
improve. Why? Because then the girls have to be dependant on men like Chris to show them how to dance.
We see it all the time - men who grab a beginner and show the girls a few moves to demonstrate how
clever they are. Of course, it's pathetic. But I guess that's how Chris gets his kicks.
Keith, HK
On Mon Jul 30 1:56 , ceverett@ceverett.com sent:
>OK, ChrisJJ has revealed one of his assumptions in his arguments.
>
>Can you suss it out?
>
>On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 03:03:00 +0100, "Chris, UK" tl2@chrisjj.com> said:
>> "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Students cannot walk if they can't balance on one foot.
>>
>> Students, this is nonsense.
>>
>> In the tango walk, she is balanced on (at least) two feet - one
>> of hers and one of yours. Plenty of girls in high heels can do
>> this much better than they can balance on one foot.
>
>And of the "girls" that can balance using me as an assist, I
>have yet to meet one that dances well.
>
>Using me for balance means I have to have balance for 2 people.
>Up to a point I can fill the need. But I consider an act of
>generosity and/or friendship. I always counterbalance it by
>seeking out a partner who can stand up by herself.
>
>In any case, advocating using the man as a crutch is demeaning
>to both men and women. I'm not a day laborer, and they aren't
>frail helpless things. As hard as I work on my dance, they can
>at least get this one thing handled.
>
>> > They can't pivot if they can't twist while balanced on one foot.
>>
>> More nonsense. What makes the pivot easy in the dance is that
>> she has the guy to twist against. Takes him away and make her
>> balance on one foot, and pivoting becomes ten times harder.
>
>Given correct posture and technique it's effortless to pivot
>on your own.
>
>Sure it's easy to twist against the guy. But it's hard on
>the guy.
>
>> > For beginners to practice musicality, they must dance alone.
>>
>> Still more nonsense. You can and do practice musicality every
>> time you dance musically in a couple. Regardless of level.
>>
>> Students, a teacher who repeatedly says certain things /cannot/
>> be done is presenting you with a learning opportunity. From
>> seeing with your own eyes that those things can be done, you'll
>> learn how much notice to take of that teacher.
>
>
>Yeah, I saw a beginner practicing musicality the other day. He
>fell on top of his partner, but he did it on the music.
>
>
>Call me an elitist prick, call me whatever , but I don't get
>this fetish you have for dumbing down the dance for followers.
>
>Christopher
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 04:21 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> anyone who is really good at anything has spent countless hours
> practicing and training alone.
Keith, do you get really good at sex by hours practicing and training alone?
Or friendship, marriage, parenting, counselling, coaching, negotiating,
teamworking, managing, politics, government, business etc. etc.?
Or teaching tango?
Of course not.
> what can we do to improve our Tango - other than dancing with a partner?
Dance with many partners.
--
Chris
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:11:47 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Chris's advices are very good, please, do not understand them too
simplistically, do not underestimate it.
1. In the tango walk, she is balanced on (at least) two feet - one of hers
and one of yours. Plenty of girls in high heels can do this much better than
they can balance on one foot.
This though is deep. Please, do not absurd it.
2. What makes the pivot easy in the dance is that she has the guy to twist
against. Takes him away and make her balance on one foot, and pivoting
becomes ten times harder.
When he pivots her, it is very "tasty". Both are the requirements: knowing
who to twist and pivot herself, as well how to let to the guy to pivot her.
And any man should be able to pivot the lady. ( I don't know, it is so
obvious, just for the sake of completeness. )
3. You can and do practice musicality every time you dance musically in a
couple. Regardless of level.
That is called dancing - practicing musicality. And that is what gives much
more dancing power than practicing anything else.
4. Students, a teacher who repeatedly says certain things cannot be done is
presenting you with a learning opportunity. From seeing with your own eyes
that those things can be done, you'll learn how much notice to take of that
teacher.
Igor Polk
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 00:25:57 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Chris,
Keith is right and your comments are nothing less than a gratuitous put
down. Keith is not talking about sex or working on relationships. His
comments are valid. Tango movements are like gymnastic movements or like a
sport or a even playing an instrument. To gain skill in those things,
practice is invaluable. Yes, people do practice those skills by themselves.
Even boxers or martial artists practice and train by themselves even though
the end results involves another person..... If you have nothing but
negative comments or personal attacks to contribute, your participation in
these forums is not helpful and frankly, it's rather discouraging and brings
nothing but discord and hard feelings. Is that what you want?
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
>Reply-To: tl2@chrisjj.com
>CC: tl2@chrisjj.com
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
>Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 04:21 +0100 (BST)
>
> > anyone who is really good at anything has spent countless hours
> > practicing and training alone.
>
>Keith, do you get really good at sex by hours practicing and training
>alone?
>
>Or friendship, marriage, parenting, counselling, coaching, negotiating,
>teamworking, managing, politics, government, business etc. etc.?
>
>Or teaching tango?
>
>Of course not.
>
> > what can we do to improve our Tango - other than dancing with a partner?
>
>Dance with many partners.
>
>--
>Chris
https://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:41:09 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
I'd like to give you an excellent example of practice, I think.
About 5 years ago I've attended a workshop of Gloria and Eduardo.
I've recorded and then reviewed one of their "advanced" elements which I
remember I could not do no matter how hard I tried at that lesson.
I reviewed the record many times, tried couple of times - it did not work.
On this Thursday, dancing, right in the dance, I somehow recalled this
element and tried to do it.
It went wonderfully !!!
What I want to say, it will come. I was moving forward, and then the day
came when I was able to do something which was difficult for me. I never
really practiced it, I only moved on with other things.
So, it will come itself, when necessary skills and the basement is build.
Did I practice myself? Yes. But not IT.
There is always something which one can practice alone to the full extent.
And dancing is one of this activities. One does not need a partner to dance.
I think Chris wanted to say that without actual couple dancing one can not
progress in tango in particular no matter who hard one practices alone.
There is something there which can not be practiced alone and this thing is
very important.
As with everything else practicing is important for progress, but the main
activity is more important.
And without the main activity how can one know what to practice!?
Igor Polk
Keith, HK,
It seems to me you oversimplify things.
Can YOU "grab a beginner and show the girls" how to dance? You think it is
so easy?
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:59:40 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Sorry, for too many messages,
Can not hold myself - it is so interesting logical practice ( and not alone
- in public ! )
For example, let us take 2 gentlemen.
One is practicing as a hell, ocho-ing, pivoting 4 hours a day, punching a
bag from dusk till down. But never going to actual place of meeting..
Another one - never practices himself. He only dances with girls the way he
can and/or is participating in street fights once in a while.
Two extremes.
I guess you already guessed my question and answered for yourself who is a
better tango dancer and where it is better to dedicate time if you have too
little of this asset.
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
I guess you already guessed my question and answered for
yourself who is a better tango dancer and where it is
better to dedicate time if you have too little of this
asset.
Igor Polk
Hi Igor, Sean here.
Neither is the better tango dancer. The better tango dancer
is the one who does both! I am surprised that you cannot
figure this out. Especially since I already told you the
answer when I started this thread. It is about "Effective
Practice". I am sorry it took you 5 years to figure out a
move that you wanted to learn. Clearly your methods are NOT
effective.
In another post you asked Keith if none of his skills were
"good enough". I won't speak for him, but I suspect his
answer would be similar to mine, which is no. There is no
"Good Enough". Every skill will be improved, for the rest
of my life. Perhaps you do not understand the phrase "Good
enough". As you have used it, it means "mediocre". And that
is never good enough.
Sean
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:56:30 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
To: "'Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)'" <patangos@yahoo.com>,
Perfectionists !!! :)))
It one letter you say it take at least 20 years ( based on Trini's
experience. With you, dare I ask? ) it takes for a man to develop listening
skills.
In another you blame me that it took me just 5 years "to figure out a
move that you wanted to learn". Mind you, it took me 5 years not of
practicing it ! But accumulating enough skill and knowledge so that the move
HAPPENED ITSELF. And other things. And of course, I did practiced. Something
else.
I think, this discussion is quite pointless without specifying what skill,
what move to practice.
Mediocre does not mean "good enough". It usually means "not good enough".
Contrary to what you say, there is no "Perfect". But "Good enough" exists.
And that is wrong too. Perfect things are everywhere. Every art piece is
perfect.
Haven't you ever experienced a perfect dance?
I am sure you did.
Igor.
-----Original Message-----
From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) [mailto:patangos@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 23:21
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
I guess you already guessed my question and answered for
yourself who is a better tango dancer and where it is
better to dedicate time if you have too little of this
asset.
Igor Polk
Hi Igor, Sean here.
Neither is the better tango dancer. The better tango dancer
is the one who does both! I am surprised that you cannot
figure this out. Especially since I already told you the
answer when I started this thread. It is about "Effective
Practice". I am sorry it took you 5 years to figure out a
move that you wanted to learn. Clearly your methods are NOT
effective.
In another post you asked Keith if none of his skills were
"good enough". I won't speak for him, but I suspect his
answer would be similar to mine, which is no. There is no
"Good Enough". Every skill will be improved, for the rest
of my life. Perhaps you do not understand the phrase "Good
enough". As you have used it, it means "mediocre". And that
is never good enough.
Sean
________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit
the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 06:57:04 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Chris, why am I not surprised that you didn't answer the question. And if the answer is "no, there is nothing you can do to to improve your Tango, other than dancing with a partner", please say so. I'm assuming you don't mean 'dance with many partners at the same time'.
Your reply just make you sound even more ridiculous. OK, you got me on the sex, friendship, marriage and parenting activities, although all of those activities might well be less tramatic if a little research and book-learning were to carried out as well. Lots of reputable books are available on how to make relationships work, although I must admit I haven't read any. And, who knows, a solitary study of the Karma Sutra might work wonders for your sex life.
But all the other activities you list - counselling, coaching, negotiating, teamworking, managing, politics, government and business normally require some kind of qualification before you're let loose on onother person. Or do you think that councillors, coaches, negotiators, etc. just walk in off the street and learn by doing?
Maybe I shouldn't be dignifying your idiotic non-answer with a response.
Keith, HK
On Mon Jul 30 11:21 , "Chris, UK" sent:
>> anyone who is really good at anything has spent countless hours
>> practicing and training alone.
>
>Keith, do you get really good at sex by hours practicing and training alone?
>
>Or friendship, marriage, parenting, counselling, coaching, negotiating,
>teamworking, managing, politics, government, business etc. etc.?
>
>Or teaching tango?
>
>Of course not.
>
>> what can we do to improve our Tango - other than dancing with a partner?
>
>Dance with many partners.
>
>--
>Chris
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:16:39 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Igor,
Don't you bother to read what people write?
On Mon Jul 30 12:41 , "Igor Polk" sent:
>I think Chris wanted to say that without actual couple dancing one can not
>progress in tango in particular no matter who hard one practices alone.
No Igor, that is not what Chris is saying. If it was, everyone would be agreeing with him.
>As with everything else practicing is important for progress, but the main
>activity is more important.
>And without the main activity how can one know what to practice!?
Igor, I agree with you, Chris does not. Just read his posts and don't put words in his mouth.
>Igor Polk
>Keith, HK,
>It seems to me you oversimplify things.
>
>Can YOU "grab a beginner and show the girls" how to dance? You think it is
>so easy?
Yes I can Igor and yes, I do think it's so easy. And every good dancer on this List can do the same. Unfortunately,
for every good dancer who does this, there will be many more bad dancers who will try to do it and mess up the beginner.
Sometimes, they mess her up so badly, she leaves and never returns. I've seen it happen to my own beginner
students and that's the problem. And, for the record, I'm not talking about loss of income - I'm talking about the loss
of a potential tanguera, the possible loss of many hours of delightful dancing with a new partner - all lost because
some jerk dragged her around the dance floor and made her feel like a fool.
Keith, HK
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:45:58 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Igor,
What is happeneing to you - are you on drugs? You've always been a little eccentric, but the English quite like eccentrics. But
now your blathering like an idiot.
Lets take a 3rd gentleman. He dances with a partner as much as possible - whenever he has the opportinity. But he wants to
progress more quickly and, when no partner is availble, he practices alone. He walks endlessly, backwards and forward,
concentrating on correct footwork, style and posture. He improves his stability and balance by pivotting endlessly. He becomes
so good he can do a triple-360 pivot forward and the same backward - in either direction, without even a wobble. He becomes
an expert at the Lapiz - again, a triple turn is nothing to him. He also practicises all the followers steps - Front and Back Ochos,
Giros in either direction, embellishments - anything he can think of. He studies possible combinations and dances them alone.
He practices until he has the body and the muscles of a trained dancer. But still - if a partner is availble, dancing with her always
comes first. And, always, night and day, dancing, practicing, eating, driving, making love - he listens to Tango music until he knows every
orchestra, every tune, every song. He can hum and sing along to all of it.
So, Igor, which of the 3 gentlemen will be the best dancer?
And, Chris, UK - do you have an answer?
Keith, HK
On Mon Jul 30 12:59 , "Igor Polk" sent:
>Sorry, for too many messages,
>Can not hold myself - it is so interesting logical practice ( and not alone
>- in public ! )
>
>For example, let us take 2 gentlemen.
>
>One is practicing as a hell, ocho-ing, pivoting 4 hours a day, punching a
>bag from dusk till down. But never going to actual place of meeting..
>
>Another one - never practices himself. He only dances with girls the way he
>can and/or is participating in street fights once in a while.
>
>Two extremes.
>
>I guess you already guessed my question and answered for yourself who is a
>better tango dancer and where it is better to dedicate time if you have too
>little of this asset.
>
>
>Igor Polk
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:12:39 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Hi Igor,
I'm sorry and surprised to hear you say that 'good enough' exists.
I agree with Sean when he says .... "every skill will be improved, for the rest of my life".
Igor, there's no such thing as 'good enough'. Of course, the day will come when age causes some physical skills to
deteriorate. But many of us will never conciously accept it. And, hopefully, other, even more important
skills, will continue to develop and improve to balance things out and our dancing will continue to improve.
But, whatever happens, never, ever think that anything is good enough. Keep working to improve. If you
don't, you'll find yourself going backwards and all the young bucks will be taking your best dances.
Keith, HK
On Mon Jul 30 14:56 , "Igor Polk" sent:
>
>Mediocre does not mean "good enough". It usually means "not good enough".
>
>Contrary to what you say, there is no "Perfect". But "Good enough" exists.
>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 09:29:54 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: [Tango-L] Effective Dancing [Was: Effective Practice]
Hi Everyone:
The goal of practice is to become more effective at dancing. Practice may
be helpful, but only if it is done in a manner that is consistent with
effective tango dancing itself.
What are the elements of effective social dancing? Such dancing cannot be
reduced down to a set of mechancial skills. The embrace, the relationship
with one's partner, the relationship with others on the dance floor, and
the relationship with music are the context within which we dance tango.
Practicing by oneself may help develop some mechanical skills, such as
balance, musicality, knowledge of step patterns, etc., but they also
remove the entire context of tango.
Practicing with a partner improves matters considerably because it is
closer to dancing. Practicing in a room full of others improves matters
even more but it is even closer to dancing. Some might go even farther
and claim that practicing at a milonga is even better, but it is
reasonable to recognize that social norms separate practice and social
dance.
Tango is a dance in which is it easy to become obsessed with perfection.
The taste of heaven that is found within tango may encourage some to seek
perfection. Others may bring their own perfectionism to tango. But we
should never confuse heaven and perfection. They are very different. The
path of perfectionism often leads away from heaven--as we find ourselves
accompanied and driven forward by demons (aka a monkey mind) that become
quite familiar. If we pursue perfection in our practice, we are likely
developing the demons that seek to keep us from effective dancing.
In tango, heaven is found through the simple gift of grace. That comes
>from getting out on the dance floor with the person that happens to be
right for the moment, opening one's heart and falling in love again. The
times that this happens, one is just happy to be in the arms of another at
the end of the tanda.
Many blissful tangos,
Steve
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 10:42:19 -0400
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
WHITE 95 R wrote:
>Chris,
>
>Keith is right and your comments are nothing less than a gratuitous put
>down. Keith is not talking about sex or working on relationships. His
>comments are valid. Tango movements are like gymnastic movements or like a
>sport or a even playing an instrument. To gain skill in those things,
>practice is invaluable. Yes, people do practice those skills by themselves.
>Even boxers or martial artists practice and train by themselves even though
>the end results involves another person..... If you have nothing but
>negative comments or personal attacks to contribute, your participation in
>these forums is not helpful and frankly, it's rather discouraging and brings
>nothing but discord and hard feelings. Is that what you want?
>
>
>
Jumping in here as a trainer, Manuel is quite right. The limiting factor
in tango, much like music, is neurological. You must repeat patterns a
great deal to cause growth in the neural pathways until you can
internalize the movement. This will vary by individual and various
factors such as background (gymnasts, e.g. will pick it up faster than
many others), amount of practice and quality of practice. One of the
most effective things you can do it think thoroughly about whatever
movement you are doing because we know that this will prep the pathways
and make the motion easier. For activities that have a large
conditioning component - which tango thankfully does not - it can be a
great deal more frustrating since you have to grow new muscle before you
can train it. One study showed that for largely neurological activities,
visualization was almost as effective as physical practice. This is why
a lot of martial arts have passed down such meditation techniques. They
cannot articulate (in a Western setting) why it works but they know it
does. The fact that their explanation sounds to our ears like
mumbo-jumbo does not reduce the effectiveness.
$.02
Jeff G
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:29:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
--- Jeff Gaynor wrote:
... The limiting factor in tango, much like music, is
neurological. You must repeat patterns a great deal to
cause growth in the neural pathways until you can
internalize the movement...
One of the most effective things you can do it think
thoroughly about whatever movement you are doing because we
know that this will prep the pathways and make the motion
easier.
--- Sean here:
Thanks Jeff. This is a key element that I neglected to
address. To practice effectively, you have to be mentally
focused on the skill you are practicing. So it is less
effective to practice two or more skills at once. This is
why I believe that dancing cannot be considered practicing.
For me, dancing requires awareness of everything. (Being in
the moment, in the zone, or however you wish to describe
that state.) If you are focused on improving one thing,
then you are not giving enough attention to everything
else. (A perfectionist's ideal may be to maintain total
awareness even while focused on improving a specific skill,
but that is a different discussion. Besides, I am more a
pragmatic than a perfectionist.)
--- Jeff also wrote:
For activities that have a large conditioning component -
which tango thankfully does not - it can be a great deal
more frustrating since you have to grow new muscle before
you can train it.
--- Sean again:
How large is large? With your background, the strength
required for tango may seem insignificant, but that is not
true for someone with a sedentary lifestyle. The average
person does not initially have the strength to balance on
one foot, to maintain their axis, or to create the torque
necessary to lead certain movements. Most of our students
have to train both strength and control.
~Sean
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:07:51 -0400
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
><snip/>
>
>
>Thanks Jeff. This is a key element that I neglected to
>address. To practice effectively, you have to be mentally
>focused on the skill you are practicing. So it is less
>effective to practice two or more skills at once. This is
>why I believe that dancing cannot be considered practicing.
>
>
From a strictly coaching perspective this is dead on the money,
otherwise sports would have no practice, just games.
>For me, dancing requires awareness of everything. (Being in
>the moment, in the zone, or however you wish to describe
>that state.) If you are focused on improving one thing,
>then you are not giving enough attention to everything
>else. (A perfectionist's ideal may be to maintain total
>awareness even while focused on improving a specific skill,
>but that is a different discussion. Besides, I am more a
>pragmatic than a perfectionist.)
>
>
More to the point, practice allows you to over-optimize certain parts in
an artificial environment. This is essential because any high-level
physical level activity should be viewed as more of an interacting
system. Soccer players don't just run, e.g., but practice sprints in the
case they need them. Generally any skill in a live situation will
degrade so optimizing them is crucial. So it goes with tango.
>--- Jeff also wrote:
>
>For activities that have a large conditioning component -
>which tango thankfully does not - it can be a great deal
>more frustrating since you have to grow new muscle before
>you can train it.
>
>--- Sean again:
>
>How large is large?
>
With tango you can work at it a couple of times a week and after a month
or two be doing pretty well. Sure you'll be a bit sore in odd places but
nothing serious. Contrast this with a competitive sport where an athlete
might well have to do 4 - 6 weeks of serious free weight training before
going to an intensive camp. Anything less is begging for an injury. I
know I sound like a trainer/coach but wanted to emphasize one of the
charming things about tango: most anyone can do it! But you have to know
*where* you put your practice. Having someone offer "tango-robics" would
be goofy in the extreme, wouldn't it?
Cheers,
Jeff G
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:17 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Jeff wrote:
> You must repeat patterns a great deal to cause growth in the neural
> pathways until you can internalize the movement.
> One of the most effective things you can do it think thoroughly about
> whatever movement you are doing
'Internalise the movement' and 'think thoroughly' are not a solution. They
are a big part of the problem.
What makes a tango movement work is that you share it completely with your
partner - you externalise rather than internalise it. And this can't be
done by thinking, thoroughly or otherwise, because thought doesn't
communicate across the embrace. The only thing that does is feeling.
Kinaesthetic feeling.
Not telepathy. Telempathy.
--
Chris
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:17 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Dancing [Was: Effective Practice]
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> The embrace, the relationship with one's partner, the relationship
> with others on the dance floor, and the relationship with music are
> the context within which we dance tango. Practicing by oneself ...
> removes the entire context of tango.
Well put, Steve.
Unconvinced guys, ask a girl at a milonga what's meant by "He's dancing by
himself."
--
Chris
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:55:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Dancing [Was: Effective Practice]
To: tango-l@Mit.edu
Chris, UK <tl2@chrisjj.com> writes:
> Steve writes:
> > The embrace, the relationship with one's partner, the relationship
> > with others on the dance floor, and the relationship with music are
> > the context within which we dance tango. Practicing by oneself ...
> > removes the entire context of tango.
>
> Well put, Steve.
>
> Unconvinced guys, ask a girl at a milonga what's meant by "He's dancing by
> himself."
Okay, come on, now you guys aren't being fair.
Chris, just because someone might practice certain
technique (like pivoting) by oneself does not
necessarily mean that one is going to treat one's
parter as an inanimate prop and in effect dance by
oneself at a milonga.
And yes, Steve, practicing by oneself does
remove the entire context of tango. So what. It
isn't supposed to be tango. It's movement technique
training.
I agree with you both, obviously one cannot
practice tango by oneself. But if you feel like it
(I personally rarely have the time, but that's beside
the point), what's wrong with practicing pivoting by
yourself, with the aim of improving your balance and
muscle tone so that your pivots are more elegant and
effortless?
Compare this to the ballet world. I've yet to
see a ballet performance where there is a barre in
the middle of the stage, with dancers resting one of
their hands on it while they dance. Yet ballet dancers
"waste" countless hours practicing at the barre. Yes,
the context of a ballet performance is missing, but
so what, they're not pretending it's there, they are
simply practicing movement technique.
Huck
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:15:23 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
To: jjg@jqhome.net, tango-l@mit.edu
Thank you Jeff, I appreciate your added explanation. My response to Chris
was a little too brief but I wanted to get my point across before too long.
Firstly that Keith from HK was indeed right in his post and that Chris was
taking cheap shots at him.
Before anyone pounces on my incomplete response, allow me to expand my
answer a bit. While I agree with Keith and others on the value of practice,
even solitary practice of tango movements. I don't imply that this is all
one needs to perfect one's technique. Obviously, dancing with one's partner
is the best way to practice one's dance and it's the place and time to see
if all those changes of weight one tried by one's self are working as
expected when the other person enters the equation.
The one thing that might be misleading (pardon the pun) is the advise to
dance with many different women in order to perfect one's leading skills.
Yes, the proof of it all is in the dance floor. All the practice and classes
mean nothing if one can't or wont dance at the milongas. However, this is
only the proving ground for one's skill in leading. In order to perfect
one's dance, to achieve more elegance, timing and perform more impressive
dances, one must practice with one's partner and not with every woman at
every milonga. Every dance couple worth their salt spends countless hours
practicing with each other to get as good as they are.
And by the way, are we talking here about refining and practicing our
dancing skills to achieve or strive for high competence or perfection? Or
are we just talking about striving to attain a passable level of mediocrity?
If it's the first, one must apply one's self to learn, practice and improve.
If it's the latter, why bother with any of this at all? From my observation
I can tell that many dancers are already mediocre enough and they could
indeed just practice their "good enough-ness" with as many women as will
accept their dances.
Manuel
Oh yeah, speaking of high skill levels in tango and the approach to
perfection, many people had the excellent opportunity to witness extremely
high level of teaching and dancing skills exhibited by Gustavo Naveira &
Giselle Anne here in Atlanta over the last 4 days. And by the way, even
though some have ridiculed the expression, several people told me in so many
words the G&Gs performance brought tears to their eyes....
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
>To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
>Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 10:42:19 -0400
>
>WHITE 95 R wrote:
>
> >Chris,
> >
> >Keith is right and your comments are nothing less than a gratuitous put
> >down. Keith is not talking about sex or working on relationships. His
> >comments are valid. Tango movements are like gymnastic movements or like
>a
> >sport or a even playing an instrument. To gain skill in those things,
> >practice is invaluable. Yes, people do practice those skills by
>themselves.
> >Even boxers or martial artists practice and train by themselves even
>though
> >the end results involves another person..... If you have nothing but
> >negative comments or personal attacks to contribute, your participation
>in
> >these forums is not helpful and frankly, it's rather discouraging and
>brings
> >nothing but discord and hard feelings. Is that what you want?
> >
> >
> >
>Jumping in here as a trainer, Manuel is quite right. The limiting factor
>in tango, much like music, is neurological. You must repeat patterns a
>great deal to cause growth in the neural pathways until you can
>internalize the movement. This will vary by individual and various
>factors such as background (gymnasts, e.g. will pick it up faster than
>many others), amount of practice and quality of practice. One of the
>most effective things you can do it think thoroughly about whatever
>movement you are doing because we know that this will prep the pathways
>and make the motion easier. For activities that have a large
>conditioning component - which tango thankfully does not - it can be a
>great deal more frustrating since you have to grow new muscle before you
>can train it. One study showed that for largely neurological activities,
>visualization was almost as effective as physical practice. This is why
>a lot of martial arts have passed down such meditation techniques. They
>cannot articulate (in a Western setting) why it works but they know it
>does. The fact that their explanation sounds to our ears like
>mumbo-jumbo does not reduce the effectiveness.
>
>$.02
>
>Jeff G
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
https://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:06:50 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Dancing [Was: Effective Practice]
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600707301606g4c42a997je747288a0b80101@mail.gmail.com>
Hello,
This is just a reaction to something that I take in a generalized way,
i.e. not necessarily tied to the specific context in which it arose
and without negative implications about the need for practice
sessions.
In my opinion Steve's paragraph below manages to capture so succinctly
and eloquently the essence of social tango dancing, along with an
implicit warning against some common pitfalls, that it should be a
"required" reading for all beginners.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
On 7/30/07, Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org <Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>
> What are the elements of effective social dancing? Such dancing cannot be
> reduced down to a set of mechancial skills. The embrace, the relationship
> with one's partner, the relationship with others on the dance floor, and
> the relationship with music are the context within which we dance tango.
> Practicing by oneself may help develop some mechanical skills, such as
> balance, musicality, knowledge of step patterns, etc., but they also
> remove the entire context of tango.
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:48:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Keith HK writes:
> Chris, UK doesn't want girls to take classes, he doesn't
> want them to practice and he doesn't want them to improve.
> Why? Because then the girls have to be dependant on men
> like Chris to show them how to dance. We see it all the
> time--men who grab a beginner and show the girls a few
> moves to demonstrate how clever they are. Of course, it's
> pathetic. But I guess that's how Chris gets his kicks.
And I guess you get your kicks building silly
strawmen and then bravely slaying them.
Let me see if I've got this straight. Chris
rails against the whole concept of teaching, so
you accuse him of being one of those rude idiots
who grab beginners and teach them on the floor.
Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense--not.
If there is genuine disagreement on the subject
of teaching and practice, it seems to me you should be
able to find plenty of stuff to take issue with from
what Chris actually writes without having to resort to
making slanderous idle speculation about the guy.
Huck
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:48:48 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
To: tango-l@mit.edu
OK, I apologise if I slandered Chris personally. But the effect of Chris' rants against teachers is the same.
It encourages those not qualified to teach to, nevertheless, attempt to teach on the dance floor. So,
even if Chris is not one of the rude idiots referred to, his words and actions encourage them. It also
encourages followers to learn just by dancing and, as has been stated many times, beginners are easily
impressed by mediocre dancers and end by being mediocre themselves. Unless, as I said in my last
posting, they're not driven away from Tango completely.
So, who is the most guilty, the mediocre dancers who teach, without knowing any better, or the leaders
of a community who encourage such actions, whether intentionally or not.
Keith, HK
On Tue Jul 31 8:48 , Huck Kennedy sent:
>Keith HK writes:
>> Chris, UK doesn't want girls to take classes, he doesn't
>> want them to practice and he doesn't want them to improve.
>> Why? Because then the girls have to be dependant on men
>> like Chris to show them how to dance. We see it all the
>> time--men who grab a beginner and show the girls a few
>> moves to demonstrate how clever they are. Of course, it's
>> pathetic. But I guess that's how Chris gets his kicks.
>
> And I guess you get your kicks building silly
>strawmen and then bravely slaying them.
>
> Let me see if I've got this straight. Chris
>rails against the whole concept of teaching, so
>you accuse him of being one of those rude idiots
>who grab beginners and teach them on the floor.
>Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense--not.
>
> If there is genuine disagreement on the subject
>of teaching and practice, it seems to me you should be
>able to find plenty of stuff to take issue with from
>what Chris actually writes without having to resort to
>making slanderous idle speculation about the guy.
>
>Huck
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:53:51 -0600
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Wow, this is getting exciting.
Kind of like watching dumb and dumber in a film noir style and a tango
theme. Even better with popcorn, beer and humor.
Ladies, isn't the next scene where one guy pops a cap in another and they
have to hide the body while the cynical bought off cop tries to pin the rap
on one of the henchmen lakies.
Boys I will leave you to your talking. I am off to practice.
Gotta make a few of the dames look beautiful during the Denver tango fest,
see if I can also make them hum a few bars of the tune we are dancing to.
Zorrito.
-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Keith
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:49 PM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
OK, I apologise if I slandered Chris personally. But the effect of Chris'
rants against teachers is the same.
It encourages those not qualified to teach to, nevertheless, attempt to
teach on the dance floor. So,
even if Chris is not one of the rude idiots referred to, his words and
actions encourage them. It also
encourages followers to learn just by dancing and, as has been stated many
times, beginners are easily
impressed by mediocre dancers and end by being mediocre themselves. Unless,
as I said in my last
posting, they're not driven away from Tango completely.
So, who is the most guilty, the mediocre dancers who teach, without knowing
any better, or the leaders
of a community who encourage such actions, whether intentionally or not.
Keith, HK
On Tue Jul 31 8:48 , Huck Kennedy sent:
>Keith HK writes:
>> Chris, UK doesn't want girls to take classes, he doesn't
>> want them to practice and he doesn't want them to improve.
>> Why? Because then the girls have to be dependant on men
>> like Chris to show them how to dance. We see it all the
>> time--men who grab a beginner and show the girls a few
>> moves to demonstrate how clever they are. Of course, it's
>> pathetic. But I guess that's how Chris gets his kicks.
>
> And I guess you get your kicks building silly
>strawmen and then bravely slaying them.
>
> Let me see if I've got this straight. Chris
>rails against the whole concept of teaching, so
>you accuse him of being one of those rude idiots
>who grab beginners and teach them on the floor.
>Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense--not.
>
> If there is genuine disagreement on the subject
>of teaching and practice, it seems to me you should be
>able to find plenty of stuff to take issue with from
>what Chris actually writes without having to resort to
>making slanderous idle speculation about the guy.
>
>Huck
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:15:15 -0400
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Chris, UK wrote:
>Jeff wrote:
>
>
>
>>You must repeat patterns a great deal to cause growth in the neural
>>pathways until you can internalize the movement.
>>One of the most effective things you can do it think thoroughly about
>>whatever movement you are doing
>>
>>
>
>'Internalise the movement' and 'think thoroughly' are not a solution. They
>are a big part of the problem.
>
>
Dude....
I think the fundamental issue here is whether instruction is a valid
source of information. You imply strongly that it is not. My hobby is
taking budding athletes and turning them into supermen/superwomen. I
know I can do it because I've done several hundred times. You would be
seriously flabbergasted to see what I can do as well as what I can get
my students to do. Part of the irritating parallel with both tango and
martial arts is the decidedly anti-rational approach to it. Since people
want it to be something transcendental they work hard at putting on the
blinders to keep it truly beyond comprehension. Sorry, nope doesn't work
for me but you are welcomed to do so if you like. Just a thought
"War is work, not mystery"
-- old Spartan saying
or more politically incorrect, a quote from Nadia Boulanger, who was
Piazzola's teacher:
"Art loves chains"
meaning that to truly bend art to your will requires profound control.
She said that to counter the myth that music just sort of happens.
Couldn't agree more. (FYI She was a famously ruthless teacher who
counted Stravinsky, Copeland and a horde of other folks you've heard of
as her pupils.)
>What makes a tango movement work is that you share it completely with your
>partner - you externalise rather than internalise it.
>
Did I state any place you don't practice with a partner? You stuck that
in and chewed me out for it. Tsk tsk. Now that you mention it,
individual practice can be ok but for certain activities it promotes
more bad habits than it fixes (ever see a wrestler do a lot of solo
practice? Screws up their timing something fierce.)
>And this can't be
>done by thinking, thoroughly or otherwise, because thought doesn't
>communicate across the embrace. The only thing that does is feeling.
>Kinaesthetic feeling.
>
>
Not sure what this means.
>Not telepathy. Telempathy.
>
>
Even less so.
Jeff
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 00:57 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Effective Practice
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> Chris ... also encourages followers to learn just by dancing
Quite why you think that's a crime Keith, I cannot fathom. Many good
teachers encourage it. Not least by giving privates to girls wanting more
of it than they can (as yet) get in the milongas.
> who is the most guilty, the mediocre dancers who teach, without knowing
> any better, or the leaders of a community who encourage such actions
Good question. Let's forgive the mediocre dancers who teach, because, as
you say, they know no better. The responsibility lies with the community
leaders who hire them to teach the classes.
--
Chris
PS Jeff wrote
> a quote from Nadia Boulanger, who was Piazzola's teacher:
>
> "Art loves chains"
Actually, "Great art likes chains."
