291 Embellsihments
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 06:00:41 -0800
From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: Embellsihments
Here's a can of worms:
What "embellishments" can a follow do that are appropriate?
When is an embellishment a constructive addition to the dance, and when
does it interfere with the flow and both partners' enjoyment?
How does a lead give the follow, time or room for embellishment, and
what embellishments can the woman do at anytime whatsoever?
--
Clayton Beach
akumushi@onebox.com
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:40:27 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
> Here's a can of worms:
> What "embellishments" can a follow do that are appropriate?
A can of worms, yes. I remember that fun thread about the "warm puppy" and
so on we had last year.
Rule Nr. 1:
embellishments are only appropriate when the man stops long enough to give
the woman time to do one, if he is, e.g., the type who waits patiently until
she has finished her step completely.
Rule Nr. 2
Embellishments have to be in rhythm with and suitable to the music (e.g.
amagues)
We don't want a "boring lecture" (credit: Frank Williams)
> When is an embellishment a constructive addition to the dance, and when
> does it interfere with the flow and both partners' enjoyment?
See above. There are steps men lead where there is no way to insert an
embellishment, unless the woman interrupts the flow of the dance completely,
and does one by herself. This is quite likely to severely upset the balance.
> How does a lead give the follow, time or room for embellishment,
A typical place is during the parada, before or after the woman steps over
the man's foot. Before: run her foot up his leg and down again or- run her
foot up her own leg and down again on the outer side or- run her foot first
up and down his leg and then up the inner side and down the outer side of
her own. Oscar Mandagaran taught me this one, and I kept getting our legs
mixed up, so the last one is only recommended for advanced dancers with good
body coordination and full mental concentration. ; )
During all of this, the leader has to wait, wait, wait, and have her caress
herself or him to her heart's content.
After she steps over, she can then perform a little lapiz on the floor
before moving her weight onto the front foot. Again, only possible, if the
leader is still waiting, and not turning his upper body yet.
There are ways to go through the parada in one flowing movement, where there
is no way in the world to do any of this.
and
> what embellishments can the woman do at anytime whatsoever?
At a parada at the end of a giro enrosque, she can do a planeo before
closing her legs. But it is her responsibility not to disturb other dancers
on the floor, and to be sensitive whether this suits the rhythm he intended.
There are a number of other adornos (traspie, ocho with a lapiz at the end,
taconeos, ochos with traspie etc., moving her arm along his shoulder with a
flourish, briefly suspending it in the air) but they are all possible only,
if the man is ready to wait for the woman, and if he opens spaces in his
dance where she can insert her own steps. Some men insist on the woman
following them all of the time, and never leave any time for her to do
anything extra.
Gavito told me, the woman can stop the man at "Nr. 2" and "Nr. 5"by
stretching her upper body against him, sort of having him run into a softly
cushioned bumper, and then very slowly caress the floor with her left foot.
He said, if you do this right, the man will not complain, he will love it.
; )
Only works in apilado.
One important point is not to make adornos a routine movement. Some women do
the same adorno every time they get to that place in the dance. This is
bound to look rather unnatural and a little boring.
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:41:04 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
>Here's a can of worms:
>What "embellishments" can a follow do that are appropriate?
>When is an embellishment a constructive addition to the dance, and when
>does it interfere with the flow and both partners' enjoyment?
>How does a lead give the follow, time or room for embellishment, and
>what embellishments can the woman do at anytime whatsoever?
Embellishements can be internal or external.
Usually when people bring this up they are talking about the external
embellishments, such as doing a boleo when it isn't led, moving her
foot through space, rubbing his leg with her foot, or doing a
triple-step in the time allocated for a single-step.
My interest is the internal communication which comes from a much,
much more internal conception of what it means for a woman to
embellish the dance.
In my view of tango, the woman is ALWAYS embellishing, simply by how
she chooses to move with the leader.
The follower's footfalls in time and space belong to the leader.
They have to so we can synchronize to the musical beat, to each
other, and hopefully avoid stepping on each other. (Yes, I have had
followers who change the footstep on purpose to see what will happen;
that is an interesting decoration).
In general, if her footfalls belong to the leader, the man is ONLY in
charge of finite, discrete moments.
In between each footfall is an INFINITE continuum of time and space,
the "follower's space in tango" which gives the her many, many
options.
The embellishments I love the most are these internal ones
communicated as she moves her body with me:
- Dense or light,
- Firm or soft
- Big or small
- slowing me down or inviting me to speed up.
- Stacatto or flowing
- Rigid or letting the hips play
- Blocky or spiralling
- Speeding up the movement or delaying the movement to the last moment
- Connected on the outside or right to my heart.
- Legs and energy together or letting the free leg sweep wide
- An embrace on the surface of the skin, muscle deep or "bone-deep"
All of these are embellishments the woman can add whether or not the
man leads them or not.
This is why, if you think about it, she is doing one or another of
these embellishments already, simply by taking the embrace and
beginning to dance.
The musical or expressive issue is: WHICH of these embellishments are
you changing consciously or intuitively in response to the different
leaders, different orchestras, or even the different emotions you
share within one leader.
The discussion of Zen or trance-like tango applies to both the man or
the woman, but for me it first comes from the peace that Robert Hauk
described, i.e. starting with simple, quiet, musical steps, that help
us both find that connection.
If you think about the woman's embellishments as being decorations of
this zen-like trance, then you are able to access a whole other layer
of tango.
These internal embellishments become the musicality and communication
the leader and follower play together.
When it is good, it is exactly like Robert's intuitive experience
playing music, where it goes straight from emotion to sound to
dancers. (If I were a musician, I would like to do this with a cello,
a Stradivarius cello, with an exquisite bow resonating not just the
strings, but straight to the soul.)
Finally, without these embellishments, it isn't really TANGO...we're
"merely" moving to the tango music together, or perhaps solving a
navigational puzzle with complicated footsteps.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:50:22 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
> In my view of tango, the woman is ALWAYS embellishing, simply by how
> she chooses to move with the leader.
>
Tom, you said what first came to my mind when I was about to answer
Clayton's posting :
"Why, the woman IS the embellishment to the man's dance."
Reminds me, yesterday I danced with an Argentine friend. Our dance slowly
developed more and more into one of those "yes, but why do they do that
standing up"-things.
Using dance as what is used to be for, an excuse, an opportunity to be close
to each other when otherwise you can't.
This created some very interesting moves, like dancing so closely, and
moving in on each other more and more, so that after the parada I moved
over, and instead of continuing, ended up sort of sitting in his lap. When I
turned my cheek against his, I noticed that everybody at the tables was
watching and grinning.
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:08:58 +0000
From: id ilras <idilras@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
>From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
>
>Here's a can of worms:
>What "embellishments" can a follow do that are appropriate?
>When is an embellishment a constructive addition to the dance,
snip
It really never ceases to amazeme the sillyness of some of these threads. I
wonder if anybody really dances tango or watches anybody else dance tango
from time to time. This is like asking when it is appropriate to add the
water to the mate, before or after it is hot! Or whether the the orange peel
should be inside or outside the orange.
Please... embellishments are part of the tango (at least they were the last
time I looked). It is like the rest of tango, a dance.
By now, I think everybody (even in this tango-L) agrees that tango is a
dance with certain characteristics, steps, a structure, a code and certain
manner of moving intrinsic to the tango, no? Embellishments and firuletes of
all types are a part of the tango and are done all the time and are
appropriate whenever they can be done. What's with all the waste of time
discussing obvious things like this? Next thing you know, we'll be
discussing at great length when it is appropriate for the man to move
forward and when it will interfere with the health of the woman! How about
when it is appropriate to do ochos? or when should the dance stop? Sheesh...
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:47:52 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
Id, or whatever your name is, I think, this is more a war of words than a
constructive discussion.
Your answer is like when someone asks "How do you do the walk ?", and you go
like Gavito "You go right, left, right, left, not right, right, left, left,
thatsa baad kinda walk, ya know ?" (He said that after watching some woman's
molinete)
If you have watched people dance, you have probably also noticed those women
who try to get an adorno in wherever they can, sort of routinely and
ungracefully, and one wishes they would just stop doing that and just dance.
Have been there myself. And many times the man, if it is a Porten~o, will
say: "I did not lead that !"
Now while we are at it, maybe you can fill that gap in my knowledge: what
exactly is the difference between an adorno and a firulete ?
Oscar calls the woman's lapiz a firulete, it seems, at least after the
parada. Gavito calls the same movement at the end of an ocho a lapiz. I
don't really get it. What are the other firuletes ?
Astrid
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:35:20 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
Clayton wrote:
>Here's a can of worms:
>What "embellishments" can a follow do that are appropriate?
>When is an embellishment a constructive addition to the dance, and when
>does it interfere with the flow and both partners' enjoyment?
>How does a lead give the follow, time or room for embellishment, and
>what embellishments can the woman do at anytime whatsoever?
What a great can!
If there is room on the dance floor, an embellishment is a constructive
addition to the dance in direct proportion to the leader's skill to
accomodate the embellishment and follower's skill to execute it. In some
cases, the follower is expected to execute an embellishment without any
interference in the leader's movements. In some cases, the follower
signals the leader that he must wait for her, and in other cases there is a
convention that the leader must wait for the follower to finish her step.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:53:57 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
Clayton wrote:
>Here's a can of worms:
>What "embellishments" can a follow do that are appropriate?
>When is an embellishment a constructive addition to the dance, and when
>does it interfere with the flow and both partners' enjoyment?
>How does a lead give the follow, time or room for embellishment, and
>what embellishments can the woman do at anytime whatsoever?
What a great can!
If there is room on the dance floor, an embellishment is a constructive
addition to the dance in direct proportion to the leader's skill to
accomodate the embellishment and follower's skill to execute it. In some
cases, the follower is expected to execute an embellishment without any
interference in the leader's movements. In some cases, the follower
signals the leader that he must wait for her, and in other cases there is a
convention that the leader must wait for the follower to finish her step.
Astrid added:
>"Why, the woman IS the embellishment to the man's dance."
Yes, but the man IS the accompaniement to the woman's dance.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:40:27 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
> If you have watched people dance, you have probably also noticed those
women
> who try to get an adorno in wherever they can, sort of routinely and
> ungracefully, and one wishes they would just stop doing that and just
dance.
> Have been there myself. And many times the man, if it is a Porten~o, will
> say: "I did not lead that !"
That's exactly what I mean, the adornos should only be done when they can be
done. How do you know when they can be done? Easy, if you don't know when
the right time is to do them, don't. If a person does not know when it is
the right time to do something, it clearly is not the right time to do it.
If you know when to do an adorno, then you know and you do it and it is the
right time. The way to know the answers to these questions is to take
instruction (eoither formal or informal) and practice your dancing a lot.
Writing and reading to this list aint gonna do it!
> Now while we are at it, maybe you can fill that gap in my knowledge: what
> exactly is the difference between an adorno and a firulete ?
> Oscar calls the woman's lapiz a firulete, it seems, at least after the
> parada. Gavito calls the same movement at the end of an ocho a lapiz. I
> don't really get it. What are the other firuletes ?
As far as I know, the women do adornos and firuletes are what the man does.
Don't ask me why because I don't know. I did not make up the words or the
rules of use. What I do understand is that adornos and firuletes are
ornamental moves or steps, if you will, that the tango dancers do when they
dance tango. IMHO, endless discussions about the right time to do firuletes
and adornos is a waste of time. I don't believe these things can be taught
or learned by reading somebody's (more likely than not uninformed)
pontifications.
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:58:02 -0600
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Embellsihments
>IMHO, endless discussions about the right time to do firuletes
and adornos is a waste of time.<
I don't wish to aggravate Mr. Patino further, but I do have this question I
am dying to ask, as I still consider myself as a beginner to Tango.
Would some members here who do not mind discussing the issue shed me some
light?
I noticed some partners are tornedo-ing the dance at 50 km per hour, and
have limited sense of musical phrasing, I tend to use embellishments
occasionally (thx god they wait for me) to realign the timing, so they could
start with the new phrasing.
Am I wrong? Should I rush with him? I do not feel I am in the position to
lecture them on the issue of speed and musicality.
Bibi (do not wish to be a Tasmania Devil)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:42:43 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
Astrid wrote:
>>[W]hat exactly is the difference between an adorno and a firulete?<<
At the risk of being accused of engaging in silly discussion on Tango-L:
A firulete is an embellishment where the movements of the foot draw an
imaginary picture on the floor. An adorno is a more general term for an
embellishment or adornment, but the term is more often used for
embellishments where the foot is not used to draw an imaginary picture on
the floor.
Bibi Wong asked about using embellishments to slow down her partners to are
moving too fast.
I would not be inclined to think that embellishments are good way to slow
down a tasmanian devil. One strategy is to move slowly and
deliberately--not allow oneself to be rushed. Another is to just dance at
the speed the leader sets.
Ironically, many leaders think it is the followers who are speeding away,
and that they (the leaders) are playing catch up. This occurs most often
when the leader inadvertently leads the follower to move by not remaining
still between movements or when the leader rushes the follower by failing
to move through the foot together position with his own steps.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
<https://www.tejastango.com/>
a non-commercial online resource for Argentine tango including reviews of
instructional videos, guides to tango music, articles about learning and
dancing tango, and links.
A newly expanded page on playing music at milongas is now available at <
https://www.tejastango.com/milongas_djsrole.html>. The guide now includes
sections on fidelity and the use of post-golden-age recordings.
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:56:47 -0500
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
Bibib Wong wrote:
> Am I wrong? Should I rush with him? I do not feel I am in the position to
> lecture them on the issue of speed and musicality.
During a recent workshop, Pablo Veron said a man is a restless creature and
a active one and one of the woman's roles is to calm him down. He said it
without
qualifications but I think he meant that she should do so without getting in the
way
or by obstructing the flow -- not to stop the dynamics but to channel it in such
a
way that she feels comfortable with the pace(and even enjoys it).
An anology in a conversation would be not to oppose the point of view or to
stop talking but to ask questions in such a way that conversation is slowed
without necessarily making it less interesting or making it more contentious.
rajan.
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:34:12 EST
From: Robert Madrigal <LekkerP@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
In a message dated 11/5/01 12:29:54 PM Mountain Standard Time,
white95r@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
Manuel wrote,
> That's exactly what I mean, the adornos should only be done when they can be
> done. How do you know when they can be done? Easy, if you don't know when
>
I would like to share the following and I might add, I'm clearly an exception
to the average tanguero on this list. I do encourage embellishments and will
offer those opportunities to stimulate that "dialogue" between partners. I
dance with three partners (perform with two) on a total average of about 15
to 20 hours a week. This gives us plenty of exposure to music dynamics,
composers, orchestras and in addition, we also dance (as a form of practice)
to alternative music; jazz, ethnic, soul, etc. as a means to develop
interpretive movement and listening skills.
There are a lot of exercises and here is the key, that can be done during a
practica to develop lead and follow technique, spatial relationships
(sandwich game demonstrated on one of Daniel Trenner's instruction tape is
excellent) and connection exercises (Graciela Gonzales's exercises) that can
help us to become familiar with those moments of opportunity or adornments by
the man or woman.
Try also practicing an entire number in one square meter area, great for
torguing your body, or taking two beats for every step, then three, then four
beats. You'll notice from these last two examples, a greater sense of
grounding and balance but also an improved connection with your partner.
We have just completed a Milena Plebs workshop here and both my partners, the
third being away in Tokyo, went to town. It was fun. Just to add if leading
an opportunity to embellish, I'm usually not standing dead still, my body is
usually moving, though slowly, with an undiminished intensity of the lead
while they become expressive.
Keep practicing and have great dances.
Robert
Santa Fe
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:55:45 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
> I noticed some partners are tornedo-ing the dance at 50 km per hour, and
> have limited sense of musical phrasing, I tend to use embellishments
> occasionally (thx god they wait for me) to realign the timing, so they
could
> start with the new phrasing.
>
> Am I wrong? Should I rush with him? > Bibi (do not wish to be a Tasmania
Devil)
Yayyy, another can of worms ! I do not wish to be a Tasmanian devil either,
nor someone who is always late and just cluelessly stumbling along with the
music.
The thing about "Whose fault is it ?" Of course, nobody ever wants to take
the blame among the beginners, or even the intermediates, and sometimes a
porten~o teacher will even conspire with the men to blame it all on the
women, even against the judgement of the porten~a, his teaching partner.
Have seen it all, am not exaggerating, him winking at her and all that.
Anyway, here is one old story:
He (the teacher) comes over while we have to practise ochos in embrace, and
says: "Astrid, you are out of rhythm." I answer: "I'd like to step on the
beat, but he won't let me." She (the teacher) says:"Yes, that's right, he is
out of rhythm." He (the teacher): "Anyway, the point is, that you learn to
follow his lead." Me: "But..." She, with a sigh: "He means, you follow him
no matter what, and if he steps out of rhythm, then you step out of rhythm
too."
Well, I have decided to discard that piece of advice.
These days, I step within the rhythm no matter what. Sometimes I even bang
down my heel at the end of a phrase. I have noticed, that if the man is not
too bad, eventually, after half a minute or so, he will fall into step with
me, and we both can dance better.
Astrid
P.S. If the guy has no sense of phrasing, he probably won't have a clue, why
you chose to do an embellishment there, nor, that your embellishment was in
rhythm with the music. The problem in this case is often the preoccupation
with steps and technique rather than listening to and interpreting the
music, I think.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 01:48:46 -0600
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
Astrid,
>in this case is often the preoccupation with steps and technique rather
>than listening to and interpreting the music<
I totally agree with your conjecture. Now that I switch my role, I salute
to all the leads as they do have a tougher job at the moment of dance. For
the followers, it is more like study all moves in advanced and pull out from
their treasure chess whatever is needed.
I just want to clarify that it was not my intention to investigate why the
phenomenon of off-beat occurs. Rather, when it occurs, whether I should
realign with the music via-- subject of this thread: embellishments.
I received a lot of responses since, for which I am most grateful. Thx!
BiBi
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 00:46:41 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments - FOLLOWING THE LEAD
> Astrid, I URGE you to reconsider your notion to follow the beat you hear
> when your leader is marking another one. > WHAT IF . . . as a follower
you train yourself so much to lead the beat
> that when a sublime leader comes your way to dance with you -- and he
hears
> complicated variations in the beat, your body is stuck in the role of
> leading the obvious beat as you had done for the other guy? YIKES!!
Look, Erica, as I said before, I hate having to explain stuff like that in
writing, but you misunderstood me. I am not routinely, mechanically stomping
along on the beat, always stepping thump,thump,thump, to whatever music.
I am perfectly willing and quite able to follow a leader with whatever way
he decides to dance to the music. I was talking about those guys who TRY to
step on a particular beat, but cannot really hear it, so they are always
just a fraction of a second late or early and are just trying to mark it,
but are really not marking anything.. In THAT case I may mark the beat for
them to find what they are looking for, but I am very relieved when I do not
have to do that.
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 01:26:34 EST
From: Robert Madrigal <LekkerP@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
In a message dated 11/5/01 10:16:28 PM Mountain Standard Time,
astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp writes:
> What are these exercises by Graziela Gonzales ?
> And who is your partner who is in Tokyo right now ? I may have met her
>
Astrid,
My partner is Atsuko Umeda, who has just returned today from a ten day visit
home. She attended the Saturday night milonga in downtown Tokyo.
As for the exercises.
Connection exercise nr. one ... place your right hand on each partner's right
shoulder pocket and with elbows bent and pointed downward you move to the
music, changing distance, tempo, etc. This is a walking exercise meant to
create consistent connection. Pressure is the same whether moving forward,
backward or to the side.
Connection exercise nr. two ... As above, place your right hand on your
partner's left shoulder pocket, however, so you now simulate a frame. You'll
note as the leader moves you are clearly feeling the breadth of the upper
torso lead. The lead to cruzado is a distinct feeling of the man placing your
left foot into position, but more important is the woman's crossing left foot
is moving at the exact speed of the intended lead of the man's right
shoulder. With this exercise you can deviate from the walking movement and
integrate circular movements.
We did the same manner of exercises with secadas, with clear simultaneous
movement of upper torso and inserted foot. All the above exercises, the woman
had her eyes closed.
The last exercise I would like to share was the killer. The man lead an eight
step basic, but slowed his pacing to one step per two or three beats. The
woman, with her eyes opened could do anything she wanted as long as she
followed the timing of the lead in moving through the basic eight. You saw
all sorts of imaginative movement but clearly the man was not to have his
lead disrupted.
The roles were then reversed with the man leading again the basic eight, but
he took the initiative to embellish, fake, toe taps, amague his was through
the steps. The woman, however, was only to feel the lead for the basic eight
step pattern.
Though we did not learn any steps or patterns in that lesson, these
exercises have stimulated the majority of our creative patterns. As tonight,
we practiced for an hour and half and devised several new movements to add to
our next upcoming performance.
Hope this was of some use.
Robert
Santa Fe
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:53:10 -0600
From: Erica Sutton <ericaatwork@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments - FOLLOWING THE LEAD
Astrid and List,
I have been on this list for almost 5 years now and have lately (last 3
years) mostly been lurking and not participating. Why? Our list is
circular and we often get back to the same topics I have seen over and over
again . . . so I enjoy reading, but rarely jump back into the fray I have
seen already.
THAT SAID . . . :-) I have something to add.
I have quoted a portion of Astrid's comments below. I am not discussing
embellishments in my response. I am discussing the follower's ROLE.
Astrid, I URGE you to reconsider your notion to follow the beat you hear
when your leader is marking another one. EVEN if you are sure his beat does
not exist in the music, simply in his mind. Our role is as a follower...
that does not make it a smaller role or a less important one. The leaders
would have no one to dance with if they did not have us. BUT we should be
very hesitant to set the beat a leader should be marking.
(The topic of embellishing and accenting the beat would fit back in right
here - but I am discussing the notion of the follower trying to SET the
beat.)
How can your leader ever find the rhythm for himself if his follower is
insisting on marking it for him?
Something I have noticed: when teachers walk around the room clapping or
stomping at students loudly to mark the beat, the students often get more
lost and confused, and often frustrated. When the music is foreign, as
tango music was to so many of us when we began to dance, it takes time to
find the beat. I remember thinking I NEVER WOULD, that my ear would always
be wooden to the rhythm. That changed over time and now I love to find the
complex beats for my embellishments!
You must give the leader time to find the beat and the music. If you insist
on marking it for him, then how is he going to learn to lead you? You are
marking the beat, I would guess your body is marking other things for him,
too. (Back-leading)
You need to follow him. That is your job! If you take another role as
timekeeper of the beat, he is limited in what he can offer you as a leader.
Please reconsider and allow him the time to develop his dance. Don't be so
quick to impose your beat on him.
Then if later on down the road he never finds the beat --- you decide how
much you REALLY want to dance with this fellow. Regardless, when you dance
with him, you dance his rhythm and you can embellish or accent ON THE BEAT
YOU HEAR for yourself.
WHAT IF . . . as a follower you train yourself so much to lead the beat
that when a sublime leader comes your way to dance with you -- and he hears
complicated variations in the beat, your body is stuck in the role of
leading the obvious beat as you had done for the other guy? YIKES!! All
possibility of enjoyment and discovery with this new leader is killed.
Don't sacrifice your better dancing trying to take a role that is not the
follower's.
The vocal part of this tango-list seems to be men as leaders. Sometimes I
wish I had more time to participate and be a voice for followers. Our role
is SO different than leading. There is so much to explore!
So this is a very long and public way to urge you to reconsider leading the
beat.
Best fond wishes one follower to another!
Erica
tango para todos
the chicago tango school
https://www.tangoparatodos.com
PS - I hope this is posted the same day I hit SEND. I seem to be moderated
everytime I want to post, which keeps me from posting that often!! :-)
>From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
>
>Anyway, here is one old story:
>He (the teacher) comes over while we have to practise ochos in embrace, and
>says: "Astrid, you are out of rhythm." I answer: "I'd like to step on the
>beat, but he won't let me." She (the teacher) says:"Yes, that's right, he
>is
>out of rhythm." He (the teacher): "Anyway, the point is, that you learn to
>follow his lead." Me: "But..." She, with a sigh: "He means, you follow him
>no matter what, and if he steps out of rhythm, then you step out of rhythm
>too."
>Well, I have decided to discard that piece of advice.
>These days, I step within the rhythm no matter what. Sometimes I even bang
>down my heel at the end of a phrase. I have noticed, that if the man is not
>too bad, eventually, after half a minute or so, he will fall into step with
>me, and we both can dance better.
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:10:45 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments - FOLLOWING THE LEAD
Astrid is talking about beginner guys who do not know where the beat is.
They are beginners by definition.
The follower stepping on the beat is such an ESSENTIAL component of
tango, that its failure makes the dance impossible to function...even
or especially when the guy doesn't hear it. In other words the beat
is the critical component we have for coordinating our movements.
In this case the follower's weight on the ground gives the beginner
guy a clue where the beat is.
The reverse is commonly done, wherein the leader helps the follower
to hit the ground at the beat.
In the more general case (when the leaders are capable of leading her
to step on the beat), the follower's role is to do the steps in time
and space led by the leader, but in the specific case where the
leader doesn't know the beat, then she must step on the beat.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:37:05 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Madrigal" <LekkerP@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
> I would like to share the following and I might add, I'm clearly an
exception
> to the average tanguero on this list. I do encourage .....
Hi Robert, you are not alone. I too give my partners many opportunities to
embellish the dance :-)
>
> There are a lot of exercises and here is the key, that can be done during
a
> practica to develop lead and follow technique, spatial relationships
Exactly my point. There arte lots of exercises (practice) to help one master
all aspects of tango.
> We have just completed a Milena Plebs workshop here and both my partners,
the
> third being away in Tokyo, went to town. It was fun
Again, this is just what I continue to point out. If one wants to learn
tango, one *must* take instruction from *real*, *live* instructors. The best
way I can think of to help folks withtheir dancing in these forums is to
suggest to them to stop, reading, writing and email-ing and go dance!
Cheers,
Manuel
> Keep practicing and have great dances.
>
> Robert
> Santa Fe
Amen!
>
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:01:44 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
----- Original Message -----
From: "astrid" <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
> > In my view of tango, the woman is ALWAYS embellishing, simply by how
> > she chooses to move with the leader.
I think embellishements must be only done after one has learned to dance at
least a little bit. It is useless to try to pin down when and how to do
these by discussing them. It seems that if one already knows how to dance
tango, one knows how and where to add embellishements. If one does not know
how to dance passably well, it is not a good idea to start embellishing the
dance with ill timed or poorly done adornos.
personally, I don't like the woman to automatically do the "shoe wipe" on my
pants legs * every time* after a parada when she goes over my right foot.
That is one example of over used and often poorly timed adorno. There are
many others as well. We all know of badly or un-timely done adornos. The
best way to address these issues is with more practice and more learning.
Manuel
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 19:32:36 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Embellsihments
Astrid wrote:
> > > In my view of tango, the woman is ALWAYS embellishing, simply by how
> > > she chooses to move with the leader.
>
Manuel warned her and other women:
it is not a good idea to start embellishing the
> dance with ill timed or poorly done adornos.
(by the way, he is repeating what she wrote herself before the above
posting)
>
To understand my answer, Manuel, you have to come off your preconceived
ideas of what embellishing means, and read my posting again more carefully.
I did not say, the woman CAN embellish, I said, she IS, I did not say she is
ADDING adornos, I said, she is SIMPLY moving WITH the leader.
If you cannot figure out what this means, read up on what Tom wrote about
density and lightness in the follower. You may have noticed that the dance
is different with every woman, even if you keep doing the same thing. You
may even have noticed, that the dance is never the same with the same woman,
even if you do the same thing.
The reason for this is, that the woman executes what the man leads. How she
executes it, depends on her posture, the resistance she puts against his
lead, the speed of reaction to his lead, all of this results in variations
of density etc., and, if she is an experienced dancer, she can do this
consciously and vary it.
And, if you want to know what is at the bottom of my idea, at the back of my
mind is, what one of the Argentine teachers here once answered, when my
German friend asked about those men who told her that tango is a man's
dance, and the woman just has to be an obedient follower to his ideas. He
replied: "The man's steps are simple and plain, compared to the woman's.
Without the woman, the man looks like nothing."
Make of that what you will, I did not say that, a tanguero from BA did.
You may add to that what Gavito told me and others: the woman does not have
to be passive. She can be an active follower. Remember, that it was Gavito
who said that, before you answer .
Astrid
