5126  Fame and photos

Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:33:42 EDT
From: Crrtango@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Fame and photos

Lois Donnay wrote:

< As I prepare to go in for my photo shoot today, I am reminded of the time I
brought Susana Miller here for a weekend of workshops. In order to create a
brochure, I asked her to send me a photo. She said she didn't have one. I
thought that surprising coming from one of the best known and most
influential Argentine teachers.>

This will probably get some sparks flying but I'm used to that. :-)

Not that I disagree with Susana's sentiment of tango being something felt,
not seen, but not having pictures shouldn't really be a surprise. Perhaps she
didn't have photos because maybe she wasn't as known or as influential as she
was touted to be. "Best known and most influential" is a matter of opinion and
relative to one's experience (or lack thereof) in tango. Susana Miller was
hyped and touted here as an influential teacher by certain people who somehow
consider "close embrace" as a separate and unique style of tango. Because so
many people in the U.S. teach performance and stage tango (i.e. open embrace)
instead of traditional social tango, which is what "close embrace" is basically,
she seemed like a novelty. Older dancers here and especially milongueros and
milongueras in Buenos Aires saw that she was just teaching what they had been
doing all their lives. I and some others here in New York were also not
impressed, either by her execution or her style. She just seemed like another
typical social dancer. Not bad, but not great and her execution and technique left a
lot to be desired.
This is not a reflection on her because she was rather humble and pleasant to
dance with but she may have not had photos because she really didn't consider
herself that important down there. It doesn't take much to impress
aficionados of tango here in the states. Although there are certainly good dancers and
teachers here, we have mediocre (or even worse) dancers from Buenos Aires come
through New York all the time who manage to impress people and sell classes
and start milongas. Some of them didn't even learn it until they came here!
Some still haven't learned it! We have a handful of them here right now.
I don't mean to disrespect Lois' regard for Susana but I wanted to put a
little perspective on why she may have not had photos.
cheers
Charles


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Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:05:55 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fame and photos and building communities

When I brought Susana here, "close embrace" was still a fairly controversial
way to dance tango, if you can believe that. (She had not opened El Beso in
BsAs yet) As in so many communities, we had learned tango from videos or

>from stage dancers, because that is who came to the U.S. to dance tango. (I

guess it was kind of like asking someone who had starred in Broadway's
"Swing!" to teach you lindy-hop.) So we knew molinetes and ganchos, but not
the embrace or how to walk.

Back then I was traveling quite a bit, and I got to dance with some people

>from San Fransisco, Denver, etc. It was an eyeopener, to say the least! I

went on a personal crusade to get the tango here a little more authentic.
Believe me, it was quite a struggle to convince people that what they were
seeing on stage was not how tango was danced on the pista. Susana Miller was
an incredibly important influence in that regard, I believe, and not just
for us but for the whole country.

Trini said "I suspect those newbies teaching have no idea of the work that
goes into building a sizable community from the ground up - work that many
others have put in before them" Is that ever true!!

Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN


----- Original Message -----

From: <Crrtango@aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:33 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Fame and photos

> Lois Donnay wrote:
>
> < As I prepare to go in for my photo shoot today, I am reminded of the
> time I
> brought Susana Miller here for a weekend of workshops. In order to create
> a
> brochure, I asked her to send me a photo. She said she didn't have one. I
> thought that surprising coming from one of the best known and most
> influential Argentine teachers.>
>
> This will probably get some sparks flying but I'm used to that. :-)
>
> Not that I disagree with Susana's sentiment of tango being something felt,
> not seen, but not having pictures shouldn't really be a surprise. Perhaps
> she
> didn't have photos because maybe she wasn't as known or as influential as
> she
> was touted to be. "Best known and most influential" is a matter of opinion
> and
> relative to one's experience (or lack thereof) in tango. Susana Miller
> was
> hyped and touted here as an influential teacher by certain people who
> somehow
> consider "close embrace" as a separate and unique style of tango. Because
> so
> many people in the U.S. teach performance and stage tango (i.e. open
> embrace)
> instead of traditional social tango, which is what "close embrace" is
> basically,
> she seemed like a novelty. Older dancers here and especially milongueros
> and
> milongueras in Buenos Aires saw that she was just teaching what they had
> been
> doing all their lives. I and some others here in New York were also not
> impressed, either by her execution or her style. She just seemed like
> another
> typical social dancer. Not bad, but not great and her execution and
> technique left a
> lot to be desired.
> This is not a reflection on her because she was rather humble and pleasant
> to
> dance with but she may have not had photos because she really didn't
> consider
> herself that important down there. It doesn't take much to impress
> aficionados of tango here in the states. Although there are certainly good
> dancers and
> teachers here, we have mediocre (or even worse) dancers from Buenos Aires
> come
> through New York all the time who manage to impress people and sell
> classes
> and start milongas. Some of them didn't even learn it until they came
> here!
> Some still haven't learned it! We have a handful of them here right now.
> I don't mean to disrespect Lois' regard for Susana but I wanted to put a
> little perspective on why she may have not had photos.
> cheers
> Charles
>
>
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new
> AOL at https://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>

Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:27:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fame and photos
To: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>, tango-L@mit.edu

So this thread is now about "close embrace"?
Dear Tango Experts:
"Close Embrace" takes in a lot of territory.
Trini wrote "And I'm grateful that Christopher & Caroline of San
Francisco and Robert Hauk brought her to the States to teach."
Robert Hauk is joined by (hopefully again) Steven Payne here
in Portland in teaching an apilado form of "close embrace".
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Alex Krebs, who also teaches
here in Portland, taught a much less apilado form of "close
embrace" as part of the multiple series of classes that I took
from him several years ago.
Most teachers teach "Close embrace" without addressing the issue
of how things work ie the exchange of energy between partners.
Put another way, "close embrace" includes a fairly wide range of
sharing energy (aka weight ) with your partner, and a continuum of
contact throughout the upper body.
I would say that if you truly want to learn "close embrace", learn to
dance apilado. At the very least, be aware of the fact that there are
differences.
I don't much care for Susanna's style as a leader, but the ability to
be so at one with someone in the dance that she represents, is
what for me separates tango from all other dances I've done.
Here I echo Trini's comment "I'm more into how it feels.".



"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gosh, for such a being such a terrible teacher, it's a
wonder that so many of Susana's students (men & women) get
danced with at all at any of these festivals! Hmmm...could
it be that they actually know how to dance?

Funny, when I compare notes with other experienced women
(nuevo and salon dancers from around the country) about the
male dancers we particularly enjoy, we often come up with
the same names - and gosh if there usually aren't several
that have been influenced a lot by Susana.

And that is what counts at the end of the day.

Your comments are the same as what many can say about other
teachers and dance styles. Some Nuevo and Salon dancers
can be just as dogmatic. Inexperienced dancers need to be
corrected no matter what the style or teacher, which I
think is what you've related. Personally, I find her
students (or students of her students) easier to teach than
others because they usually know that they have lots and
lots to learn. And I can name at least 4 other instructors
who sell CD's on tour, too.

In my studies with excellent teachers of all styles, none
of them have disputed anything Susana has ever taught me.
There've been some stylistic differences but there's always
a reason behind it, one which is not a basic part of
Susana's style . I find that those who don't like Susana's
teaching often lack a good understanding of her style.
Heck, she is quite blunt about sacrificing elegance for
stability for the man. (IMHO, it makes the men feel more
masculine, which I enjoy.) So if one is into only the
"looks" of tango, skip Susana. I'm more into how it feels.

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" wrote:

> Hi list,
>
> A little graffiti...
>
> Crrtango@aol.com wrote:
> > Trini wrote:
> >
> > > dancing. Many of the old-timers had no idea how they did
> what they did.>
> >
> From what I've seen, she hadn't a clue herself.
> > [This and the rest is Charles...] True, but some do
> know how to teach. She may have figured out how to teach
> it well but she never learned to dance it well.
> Again, we encounter the difference between knowing how to
> dance and
> knowing how to teach. To me, if you don't dance what you
> teach, and vice
> versa, you're full of it.
>
> To the seams.
> > Whether good or bad, a teacher is still going to be the
> dance model for what they teach.
> This is the same point from the other end of the
> telescope. And let me
> quote Stephen Brown's recent post on "Finding Clarity in
> Tango"--
>
> > 4) Much of what is represented as tango instruction
> doesn't do much more than convey the instructor's own
> style of dancing. This criticism doesn't apply to
> everyone who teaches tango.
> >
> The only teachers exempt from this "criticism" are the
> ones who _do not_
> dance what they teach.
>
> I'm frankly astonished that Chris (UK), who's usually a
> perceptive
> critic of bullshit, could call the post in which this
> piece of hogwash
> was written "excellent." And then quote Yeats on top of
> it. Tsk, tsk, my
> friend.
> > That is my point: Susana Miller is a so-so dancer with
> an over-inflated reputation, not an important and
> influential one. She just got more publicity.
> Amen, Charles. And she "got" more publicity because she
> found more
> suckers at, evidently, the opportune moment.
> > The only reason her "close embrace" approach was novel
> was because it appealed to people who had no sense of
> tango history or never learned tango correctly in the
> first place.
> Nor have many of them learned how to dance correctly
> since. As a
> teacher, I'm _constantly_ correcting the worse habits of
> her goddamn
> McMilonguero style, which are as close to choreography as
> the most
> number-based sequence is.
>
> If it wasn't for her, conscientious teachers might have
> very little to
> do indeed.
> > It is sad when the traditional way of dancing is
> forgotten or ignored to the point that someone can come
> along and market it as
> > if it were a new way of dancing.
> >
> Sad, yes; but a false alternative is false nonetheless--
> as you,
> Charles, seem to imply. As for the rest of you-- never
> forget that she
> has consciously and deliberately _marketed_ her teaching
> as "authentic,"
> if not always "new." What "influence" she has had--
> contra "Trini de
> Pittsburgh"-- has largely occurred because her teaching
> excels in the
> bad-habits department, and therefore requires a lot of
> fixing. If she
> disappeared for one generation of tango dancers (provided
> her
> "disciples" could stop their tongues), we would have no
> more reason to
> mention her name.
>
> In truth, as I've pointed out here before (and as the
> interview w/
> Fabian Salas on Keith Elshaw's website makes plain), SM
> is responsible
> for propagating that incorrigible misnomer "ocho
> cortado," which move is
> patently nothing of the kind. I personally have spent
> excessive time
> getting students _out_ of that one damn pattern. I wish
> my teaching
> could be more productive than remedial, with all my
> heart; but as long
> as this woman's "influence" remains in circulation, I and
> many others
> will have problems to undo, as our priority.
>
> AND the woman sells (or at least formerly sold) other
> people's
> copyrighted music on CD. And in _poor_ fidelity at that
> (which in my
> view is hardly excusable, if you're going to be a punk.
> What honorable
> pirate traffics in garbage?).
>
> AND her disciples, the "close embrace" people (I dance
> close embrace
> too, mind you), have become, I daresay, the only
> _dogmatically_
> closed-minded participants in this dance we all love. As
> is evidenced
> here, on this very list, every other month or so.
>
> So please tell me, O List-- given this critique-- what
> possible value
> does this self-appointed (if ever there was one) apostle
> of the
> "authentic" have to her credit? We're well past the point
> at which her
> "non-stage" approach (not that it's even true) holds any
> water. I've
> seen her teach in DC; I've cleaned up the reductive mess
> she leaves; I'd
> sincerely like to know. I mean, if there's one teacher
> who _should not_
> have a press photo, it's her, as far as I can tell.
>
> Jake
> DC
>

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/





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Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:52:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fame and photos
To: tango-L@mit.edu


--- steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com> wrote:

> So this thread is now about "close embrace"? ...
> I would say that if you truly want to learn "close
> embrace", learn to
> dance apilado. At the very least, be aware of the fact
> that there are differences.

True, Steve. Perhaps we can avert a flame war by
addressing what I think Jake (and others) find most
offensive, which is the dogmatism.

When there is dogmatism, there is usually an attack of some
sort that has produced that dogmatism. Part of the early
conflict in our own community was that certain salon
practictioners were making our students feel bad about
their dancing. To defend my students, you?d better believe
I was a bit of a "dragonlady". As our students became
accepted, I felt less of a need to be so defensive.

This is also the same conflict friends in other cities are
experiencing today, whenever a new style (either milonguero
or nuevo) interrupts the status quo. Without a conflict,
there's no need for dogmatism.

Perhaps that's why Susana & I get along so well. We've
shared similar conflicts to promote a dance we both love.
As artists, there's no other real choice.

It?s easy to forget when reading these posts that there are
lives and issues happening out there that we readers don?t
always know about.

Trini de Pittsburgh


PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/





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