862 Fingers to Palm
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:23:46 +0000
From: Russell Ranno <russellranno@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Fingers to Palm
Hello Friends,
I came across something new to me this summer at the Tango Fireworks in Los
Angeles and still don t know what to make of it. Instead of returning a
warm palm to palm embrace of my left hand, a few of the women offered
their fingertips, placed on the lower heel of my hand. With her thumb and
pinky dangling in space I had the sensation of needing to pinch grip her
fingertips to keep her hand in place. It felt like I was holding a hankie,
or in the cases where the arm was heavy, like I was presenting a fish for
weigh-in at the Pike Street Market! Now these were very good dancers so my
first thought was that maybe I was holding my arm too high and they couldn t
reach it comfortably, but no, at whatever height the dynamic remained the
same. So I studied the crowd and noticed that this was standard practice
for some of the milonguero style dancers in attendance. Hmmm, something new
to learn. My questions are:
1. Who's hand position do we dance? Well, I am a gentleman so we dance
hers, but until I have more experience with it, I don't find it very
comfortable.
2. Does anyone who uses this style find it as comfortable and connected as
the skin contact of a cozy, pulsating palm to palm hand embrace?
3. Does this technique serve a functional purpose?
4. Where does this style come from? I have never seen it before, not in
Europe, nor in the (few) milongas I have attended in Buenos Aires.
Ciao,
Russell
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:26:24 +0100
From: andy Ungureanu <Andy.Ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: Fingers to Palm
Russell Ranno schrieb:
> 1. Who's hand position do we dance? Well, I am a gentleman so we dance
> hers, but until I have more experience with it, I don't find it very
> comfortable.
>
> 2. Does anyone who uses this style find it as comfortable and connected as
> the skin contact of a cozy, pulsating palm to palm hand embrace?
>
> 3. Does this technique serve a functional purpose?
>
> 4. Where does this style come from? I have never seen it before, not in
> Europe, nor in the (few) milongas I have attended in Buenos Aires.
>
I worked with different argentine teachers. They teach different styles,
different techniques, some of them not compatible to each other.
But all of them teach the same way to keep your hands! Palm to palm as
simple as possible with medium tension so that the other partner feels
you keep her/his hand but don't squeeze it. Hands are vertical, because
flexion of the one is overturning for the other one and this is not very
comfortable.
What i see at milongas is a broad variety of positions. Straight spread
fingers of the man while the woman keeps his thumb (everything left to
hold), men holding womens hand with two fingers as if it was dirty,
overflexed hands of men as if they had a spastic contraction and more
strange combinations.
But this are not "styles", IMO this are just bad habits.
Andy
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:23:23 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Fingers to Palm
> Russell Ranno schrieb:
>
> > 1. Who's hand position do we dance? Well, I am a gentleman so we dance
> > hers, but until I have more experience with it, I don't find it very
> > comfortable.
> >
Andy wrote:
> What i see at milongas is a broad variety of positions. Straight spread
> fingers of the man while the woman keeps his thumb (everything left to
> hold), men holding womens hand with two fingers as if it was dirty,
> overflexed hands of men as if they had a spastic contraction and more
> strange combinations.
> But this are not "styles", IMO this are just bad habits.
>
I have seen holds that look like the woman would prefer to use a pair of
tweezers to touch the man. Like, her middle finger on the back of his collar
with all the other fingers lifted away from his body, similar attitude
towards holding his left hand, like a hollow palm, the middle finger or some
other finger touching his hand, and the other fingers spread away.
I wonder if these are just "bad habits" as Andy thinks, or an expression of
general disgust with having to touch the man, and reducing it to a minimum.
Or do they think, a middle finger on his collar looks elegant ? Like holding
a cup of tea with your little finger lifted ?
The opposite may be the man who insensitively crunches the woman's hand in
his.
Whatever.
This is in Japan, by the way, and even here, these weird holds are uncommon,
fortunately.
Astrid
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:09:38 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fingers to Palm
Astrid and friends,
> I wonder if these are just "bad habits" as Andy thinks, or an expression of
> general disgust with having to touch the man, and reducing it to a minimum.
> Or do they think, a middle finger on his collar looks elegant ? Like holding
> a cup of tea with your little finger lifted ?
There is, of course, no accounting for taste. One person's inspired
expression could be another person's 'bad habit'. Who should be the
arbiter of what is correct? IMHO, only the individuals within each
couple. Perhaps one of the most challenging aspects of being an
intermediate-level tanguero/a (in No. America) is learning to
accommodate your partners. The concept of 'correct frame in tango' and
the notion that there is a 'standard' way to embrace is, IMHO, a shallow
teaching construct. We learn these rules because they allow us to
practice other elements of cooperative movement without creating
additional barriers. However, every didactic 'rule' I've ever learned
in tango could later be broken - sometime, somehow. I stress
accommodation when I am asked for advice on the best frame for a couple.
For my part, it is absolutely no problem if accommodation means holding
air with my left hand as we dance. I shouldn't need her right hand as a
rudder or steering wheel... If my partner doesn't need my left hand, so
much the better.
In order to accommodate, I sometimes experiment with the frame during a
dance. Intermediate-level followers are sometimes put off, thinking
that they are being corrected rather than accommodated. I think of it
this way: If I were giving her a long good-bye hug (like, at the
airport), would I hold her motionless for three minutes, all in the same
exact way? No. Hugs are fluid and they change and evolve, like the
music to which we're dancing. For example, it can feel very natural to
place her right hand against my chest. Or to gently release her left
hand all together and see where it floats - on my elbow?, by her side?,
my left shoulder? (what a sweet connection!). When the music asks for
the hands to find each other again, they do so with a purpose. Right or
wrong, it seems only natural. Some of the sweetest connections I can
recall developed when the follower initiated a change to the frame.
Musically - softly - Mmmmmm!
The bottom line, IMHO, is whether your torsos are dancing together.
Does your body always accompany or receive her steps? If that
connection is good, then the hands and feet and whatever else you want
to worry about can be accommodated.
My best,
Frank in Minneapolis
--
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
University of Minnesota
612-625-6441
Department of Neuroscience
6-145 Jackson Hall
321 Church Street SE
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Department of Veterinary Pathobiology
205 Veterinary Science
1971 Commonwealth Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55108
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:29:15 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fingers to Palm
Sorry, minor correction:
... release her RIGHT hand and see where it goes...
> For example, it can feel very natural to
> place her right hand against my chest. Or to gently release her
> left hand all together and see where it floats - on my elbow?, by
> her side?, my left shoulder? (what a sweet connection!).
F.
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
University of Minnesota
612-625-6441
Department of Neuroscience
6-145 Jackson Hall
321 Church Street SE
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Department of Veterinary Pathobiology
205 Veterinary Science
1971 Commonwealth Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55108
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:52:14 -0500
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Fingers to palm
Frank G. Williams says:
"The concept of 'correct frame in tango' and
the notion that there is a 'standard' way to embrace is, IMHO, a shallow
teaching construct. We learn these rules because they allow us to
practice other elements of cooperative movement without creating
additional barriers. However, every didactic 'rule' I've ever learned
in tango could later be broken - sometime, somehow." He then mentions that
the hands can freely float or move, etc.
All this is fine but...we are not breaking any previously learned rules.
I think that he is talking about basic tango teaching.
To be able to start dancing it is necessary to have a frame, some frame.
This could be somewhat different depending on the style one chooses to
dance.
If you decide to dance milonguero, then the frame is determined by the
chest. The chest contacts the other chest down to about the waist area, the
pelvis and legs remain separated. Support and lead are determined mostly by
the chest.
In Salon Style we alternate a close embrace with an open one. This is
changed according to the needs of the different figures that are being
created.
One has to start some place.
In the open embrace : the man and the woman face each other, the man offers
his left hand, open and facing up, the woman deposits hers in his. He closes
his hand and flexes his wrist. The height of this hand is about the woman's
mouth but it could be higher or lower according to preference.
His right hand at the back of the lady goes all the way beyond the midline
to the right side of her back. Her left hand on his right arm. This provides
a firm open frame, from which it is easy to lead and follow.
At times like when one walks, the embrace changes to closed, her left hand
goes up to his right shoulder or around his neck.
His right one goes further to under her right axillary area ( if the
relative anatomy permits). Both return back to the open embrace when in need
of space to perform certain moves or turns. The man loosens his right arm
and the woman slides her left down to the right arm area. This is very
important, a woman that does not release her closed hold inhibits her
partner's freedom to dance.
The left hand of the man is there only to provide support for the lady, it
has no other action in leading. The lead is conveyed by the chest and the
right arm of the man.
If the lady feels well supported by her fingers rather than by her palm,
there should be no problem, as Frank says it is a question of good or bad
taste. Elegance vs. awkwardness.
When in closed embrace the support is provided by the chests, so the hand
can freely float or travel as the choreography and good taste may dictate.
Another place where the hands may be released is after a stop or during the
bridge, here at times the free hands float like a flying bird or the right
hand of the man closed as a fist is placed at his back, etc.
But this does not mean that we are breaking any previously learned rules.
All this *is part of the correct frame.
What do you think?
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:52:14 -0800
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Fingers to palm
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Sergio wrote:
> Frank G. Williams says:
>
> "The concept of 'correct frame in tango' and
> the notion that there is a 'standard' way to embrace is, IMHO, a shallow
> teaching construct. We learn these rules because they allow us to
> practice other elements of cooperative movement without creating
> additional barriers. However, every didactic 'rule' I've ever learned
> in tango could later be broken - sometime, somehow." He then mentions that
> the hands can freely float or move, etc.
>
> If you decide to dance milonguero, then the frame is determined by the
> chest. The chest contacts the other chest down to about the waist area, the
> pelvis and legs remain separated. Support and lead are determined mostly by
> the chest.
>
> But this does not mean that we are breaking any previously learned rules.
> All this *is part of the correct frame.
> What do you think?
For me, as long as the "conversation" is about what step to take we are
working on technique. Important yes, but after the years of work if all
we say is "side step", "sidestep taken, check", "backstep" "backstep
check", "incredible difficult fancy step of choice" " did that, check",
it's pointless for me to dance, the conversation is trivial and
meaningless.
Yes, we need the lead and follow, but that isn't why I dance. I dance to
communicate about the feelings, the music. A side, back whatever step, a
complex figure no matter how showy is meaningless. I found an interesting
book on the brain that talks about feelings as remembered emotion. And
Susanne Langer talks about dance as communication by gestures that
symbolize feelings.
Now the embrace is a more inclusive concept to me than frame. The embrace
IS the dance, not something that is done in order to dance. The embrace is
the source gesture of the partner dance that is tango. The embrace is a
human gesture that serves to communicate a range of feelings from joy to
grief, and if you look at Greco-Roman wrestling (a bit off topic perhaps)
it can serve to express struggle and conflict.
Moshe Feldenkrais thought that we need a minimum of three ways to do
something in order to have choice. This implies to me that as we progress
in learning anything we will break rules. The rules were training wheels
to help us ride the bicycle. Once we learn how to balance it and ride we
only need two wheels and are much freer for the loss of the extra wheels.
Some of my best dances were with a partner who in close embrace let her
legs touch mine (unless she was doing a back ocho, ocho cortada, etc).
When I took a step her leg moved as one with mine. After dancing with her
and then going to dance with a partner who danced "correctly" I felt a
lonesomeness in my legs. After a certain level, when knowing enough lead
and follow to begin to focus on the conversation of feeling, I think the
partners can discover what embrace works best for them to communicate with
each other. Now, if we are talking about dancing tango for a viewing
audience, well, then there are concerns about how a style reads or looks.
So, I think along the lines of what Frank said, Sergio. And also because
I've seen different teachers teach different rules so that following one
teacher's rule would break the rule of the other. Artist use rules, and
breaking them is one good use of them.
Good discussion, I hope to hear from others on this topic.
Jonathan
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:03:44 -0600
From: Karen Whitesell <kglass@MNTVERNON.NET>
Subject: Fingers to palm
The question is: Why is my follower just placing fingers in my palm?
My answer is: It is an excellent example of the lady's ability to adapt to
any situation. It is her defense mechanism for what I call "THE DREADED
THUMB HOLD." She slides her hand down to get some connection, if only with
her fingers.
When the lead rotates his hand around mine, I am left with only the thumb to
make contact. I can ignore it or hold it, I don't like it. When we meet,
I like the hand to be the first embrace, warm and reassuring, a signal of
more to come. Don't abandon this satellite embrace just to look cool.
If you are practicing this fad, please reconsider. I cannot rotate my hand
internally to meet yours, I am left with the dreaded thumb hold. This may
be the cool look, but in reality, it looks kind of silly. Go to your
Trenner catalogues and look at all the pictures. How many dreaded thumb
holds can YOU find?
This rotation around my hand works well when there is no pressure, but not
good when leading salon style turns or figures when a pulsing action off my
hand torques you around. We are taught to slide apart to do fancy stuff,
you should make an equal adjustment with your left hand. Otherwise, I am
left with the dreaded thumb hold. Not a good feeling.
My struggle with this phenomenon is solved, thanks to the post that pointed
out the solution. What was one man's problem is one women's solution. The
experienced followers have invented this sliding down with the fingers in
the palm as an alternative to the dreaded thumb hold. They have not
complained, they have not rebelled, they make an adjustment and just follow.
Karen
See you in Memphis this weekend with Cacho Dante.
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:43:38 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fingers to Palm
Russell Ranno writes:
> I came across something new to me this summer at the Tango Fireworks in Los
> Angeles and still don't know what to make of it. Instead of returning a
> warm palm-to-palm embrace of my left hand, a few of the women offered
> their fingertips, placed on the lower heel of my hand. [...]
>
> 3. Does this technique serve a functional purpose?
The follower's perspective was recently offered
here. Cacho Dante also points out how this technique
can help the leader: When this hand position is employed,
and the follower decides that she doesn't feel like
supporting the weight of her own right arm but would
rather burden the leader with this task, *POOF*, her
hand slips through the leader's fingers and palm and
is gone!
"See ya, heavy hand! Wouldn't wanna be ya!"
By way of anecdote, I told this to a ballroom
instructor friend of mine, and he said, "Sheesh,
Cacho mustn't get out much. I've known plenty of
women who've gotten around that one and responded
with The Hook. They just wiggle their fingers up
and make a little hook to latch onto the top of the
palm."
Then heavy hand says, "I'm baaaaackkkk!!!
You can't get rid of me that easily!!"
Huck
