5066 Four Layers of Tango Learning
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:33:20 -0700
From: <dchester@charter.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Steve (or anyone else for that matter),
Would you be so kind as to explain what you mean by "Structure of the Dance"? I think I understand the other three layers you listed (although I suppose I could be wrong about those), but I'm quite sure about not understanding the third layer you mentioned.
As you might guess, I'm a beginner to Tango (almost 5 months into it), but so far it's been a fun hobby to enjoy with my wife.
Thanks,
David
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 13:49:39 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
Cc: dchester@charter.net
David wrote:
>Would you be so kind as to explain what you mean by "Structure of the
Dance"?<
As no one else is tackling this question, I will try with the hopes that
someone will improve upon my comments.
There are two different chains of dancers/instructors who have developed
systems for organizing the possibilities of tango.
One chain was created in a group of dancers led by Petroleo (Carlos
Estevez) and Salvador Sciana. Mingo Pugliese was one of the youngest
members of the group and he is credited for distilling the groups thinking
into a systematic approach to tango. Mingo distilled the innovative
concepts developed by Petroleo and Salvador Sciana during the golden age
of tango into systems of generalized eight-count right and left turns
(giros) that can be used as a frame of reference for all turning steps
including giros, molinettes, enrosques and ganchos.
Another chain was started by Gustavo Naveira and involves people such as
Fabian Salas, Chicho Frumboli (and possibly Pablo Veron). Naveira with
contributions from his compratiots developed a systematic way for looking
at all the movement possibilities in tango. Walking is divided into
parallel and crossed systems. Turns are seen as two sets of four-count
right and left turns. Ochos are seen as part of the sytem of turns,
boleos are seen as interuptions in turns, back ochos are seen as
equivalent with crossed walking.
If we think of the dance as being made up of these elements discovered by
these dancers/professors, we develop an understanding of the structure of
the dance
I recommend reading Brian Dunn's interview with Gustavo Naveira:
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg04984.html
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg05040.html
Some video tapes come to mind for a visual representation--those by
Gustavo Naveira and Olga Besio and those by Daniel Trenner.
See: https://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html#Structure
The Pugliese videos might also be helpful, but they are bit less direct
that they are teaching from a structural system.
See https://www.tejastango.com/bridge_tango.html#Pugliese
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:19:38 -0400
From: <dchester@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
Steve,
Thanks for taking the time to reply to me. I think I understand what you are refering to. When discussing tango with my wife, I have been refering to this as either the geomtric or analytical aspect of the dance. There are lots of way to model things, and your model makes as much sense as anything I've heard thus far, and it appeals to the analytical side of my personality (although I'm a beginner so my thoughts probably don't mean very much).
For me, the hardest thing about understanding Tango has been the leads. Most teachers I've encountered (thus far) are good at teaching steps, but not good at communicating how to lead the steps. I still haven't really figured out if leading is more of a science (technical) or an art (but it seems like there should be a way to explain/teach this without taking a year). For me that's the biggest problem I have with tango.
If someone could come up with a model for how to lead, they'd get a lot more men to stick with it.
Regards,
David
---- Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org wrote:
> David wrote:
> >Would you be so kind as to explain what you mean by "Structure of the
> Dance"?<
>
> As no one else is tackling this question, I will try with the hopes that
> someone will improve upon my comments.
>
> There are two different chains of dancers/instructors who have developed
> systems for organizing the possibilities of tango.
>
> One chain was created in a group of dancers led by Petroleo (Carlos
> Estevez) and Salvador Sciana. Mingo Pugliese was one of the youngest
> members of the group and he is credited for distilling the groups thinking
> into a systematic approach to tango. Mingo distilled the innovative
> concepts developed by Petroleo and Salvador Sciana during the golden age
> of tango into systems of generalized eight-count right and left turns
> (giros) that can be used as a frame of reference for all turning steps
> including giros, molinettes, enrosques and ganchos.
>
> Another chain was started by Gustavo Naveira and involves people such as
> Fabian Salas, Chicho Frumboli (and possibly Pablo Veron). Naveira with
> contributions from his compratiots developed a systematic way for looking
> at all the movement possibilities in tango. Walking is divided into
> parallel and crossed systems. Turns are seen as two sets of four-count
> right and left turns. Ochos are seen as part of the sytem of turns,
> boleos are seen as interuptions in turns, back ochos are seen as
> equivalent with crossed walking.
>
> If we think of the dance as being made up of these elements discovered by
> these dancers/professors, we develop an understanding of the structure of
> the dance
>
> I recommend reading Brian Dunn's interview with Gustavo Naveira:
> https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg04984.html
> https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg05040.html
>
> Some video tapes come to mind for a visual representation--those by
> Gustavo Naveira and Olga Besio and those by Daniel Trenner.
> See: https://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html#Structure
>
> The Pugliese videos might also be helpful, but they are bit less direct
> that they are teaching from a structural system.
> See https://www.tejastango.com/bridge_tango.html#Pugliese
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 09:54:49 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: "Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org" <Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org>
Cc: dchester@charter.net, tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340707220754o27afc7f0ofd753ff56b2b3aa2@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/20/07, Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org <Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>
> David wrote:
> >Would you be so kind as to explain what you mean by "Structure of the
> Dance"?<
>
> As no one else is tackling this question, I will try with the hopes that
> someone will improve upon my comments.
>
> There are two different chains of dancers/instructors who have developed
> systems for organizing the possibilities of tango.
>
> One chain was created in a group of dancers led by Petroleo (Carlos
> Estevez) and Salvador Sciana. Mingo Pugliese was one of the youngest
> members of the group and he is credited for distilling the groups thinking
> into a systematic approach to tango. Mingo distilled the innovative
> concepts developed by Petroleo and Salvador Sciana during the golden age
> of tango into systems of generalized eight-count right and left turns
> (giros) that can be used as a frame of reference for all turning steps
> including giros, molinettes, enrosques and ganchos.
Dear Steve (& list),
I spent 6 years learning the Pugliese system from instructors who had
studied with him (and had a brief opportunity to study with Mingo & Ester
myself), so I am familiar with the well-thought out system he has
identified. The last 3 years my tango studies have switched to milonguero
style tango. I will refer here in particular to turns.
The grapevine (forward - side - back - side) exists in both open and close
embrace styles. However, in tango milonguero, it is not used as much as
'rock step turns' - clockwise and counterclockwise turns that achieve
turning through rotating rock steps.
Aside:
- For those who are not familiar with the tango milonguero repertoire, this
includes a variety of options for turning, including the familiar 'la
cunita', but more commonly used are 'rock & return' sequences which result
in the woman returning to a closed (feet) position or cruzada in front of
the man after a rock back and forward (or side out and back). These rock
steps can be varied in orientation, degree of rotation (no turn up to half
turns) and in rhythm ('slow' & 'quick' rocks) to provide a variety of
options for dancers. The ocho cortado is part of this family of sequences.
(We teach these in a course we call 'Rock around the clock')
The rock step turns are part of the core repertoire of tango milonguero, yet
these patterns are rare or non-existent in open embrace styles. I don't know
if anyone has codifed this rock-step system, but it does constitute a core
part of the 'structure of the dance' in tango milonguero.
Ron
Another chain was started by Gustavo Naveira and involves people such as
> Fabian Salas, Chicho Frumboli (and possibly Pablo Veron). Naveira with
> contributions from his compratiots developed a systematic way for looking
> at all the movement possibilities in tango. Walking is divided into
> parallel and crossed systems. Turns are seen as two sets of four-count
> right and left turns. Ochos are seen as part of the sytem of turns,
> boleos are seen as interuptions in turns, back ochos are seen as
> equivalent with crossed walking.
>
> If we think of the dance as being made up of these elements discovered by
> these dancers/professors, we develop an understanding of the structure of
> the dance
>
> I recommend reading Brian Dunn's interview with Gustavo Naveira:
> https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg04984.html
> https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg05040.html
>
> Some video tapes come to mind for a visual representation--those by
> Gustavo Naveira and Olga Besio and those by Daniel Trenner.
> See: https://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html#Structure
>
> The Pugliese videos might also be helpful, but they are bit less direct
> that they are teaching from a structural system.
> See https://www.tejastango.com/bridge_tango.html#Pugliese
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 19:15:47 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
David,
You've hit upon a very important issue. In tango, next to learning how to
move yourself, you (as the man) need to learn to impart your intention
(lead) to the woman. This is one of the most difficult things to teach. It's
probably not that your teachers are not good at communicating how to lead
the steps. It's rather that it's very hard to make someone else feels what
one feels when leading.It's a liitle bit like trying to describe a color to
a person blind from birth. Or better yet trying to explain to somebody how
to ride a bicycle.....
We've been teaching people to dance tango for nearly 15 years. Over this
time I've tried all sorts of stratagems to impart the "leading" technique to
beginning men dancers (and a few women as well). There is no single thing
that will do the trick. Some guys seemingly learn by osmosis, some listen,
watch and do it, some never quite get it. Sometimes "leading" the guys to
move a step in a given direction will help them. I'm continually saying to
the leaders to "lead the woman, make sure she's received the lead and then
follow her". Really, the key to it is to recognize that the man is always
following the woman after each lead he imparts to her.
The devil is in the details. How do you lead something? Is it with your
hands? Is it with your chest?.... It is with the totality of your body, as
you learn to move your body through space, you learn to move in a way that
allows you to give your partner a direction and a subtle yet undeniable
impulse to move where you need her to go. This lead comes from your core and
it's transmitted through your arms and chest. The woman then takes this
"lead" and transmits it from her hands and chest through her body to her
legs and feet.... Then she moves and you move along with her to finish that
step before you lead the next one. One thing is for sure, you never lead
with your feet as in starting to step yourself in a given direction before
the woman has begun to move..... That usually results in either the woman
getting stepped on or being run over (or both). Once you've gotten a fair
command of leading, your tango will take a huge leap forward in skill and
enjoyment.
I think this is a pretty clear and accurate explanation of leading (and
following). However, I doubt that it would do much more good than whatever
your teachers have said or done or tried to do in order to teach this. This
is just one of those things that must be experienced and integrated by each
person...
Cheers,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: <dchester@charter.net>
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
>Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:19:38 -0400
>
>Steve,
>
>Thanks for taking the time to reply to me. I think I understand what you
>are refering to. When discussing tango with my wife, I have been refering
>to this as either the geomtric or analytical aspect of the dance. There
>are lots of way to model things, and your model makes as much sense as
>anything I've heard thus far, and it appeals to the analytical side of my
>personality (although I'm a beginner so my thoughts probably don't mean
>very much).
>
>For me, the hardest thing about understanding Tango has been the leads.
>Most teachers I've encountered (thus far) are good at teaching steps, but
>not good at communicating how to lead the steps. I still haven't really
>figured out if leading is more of a science (technical) or an art (but it
>seems like there should be a way to explain/teach this without taking a
>year). For me that's the biggest problem I have with tango.
>
>If someone could come up with a model for how to lead, they'd get a lot
>more men to stick with it.
>
>Regards,
>
>David
https://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 01:59 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Manuel wrote:
> it's very hard to make someone else feels what one feels when
> leading.
It's very easy. You get them to follow.
> It's a liitle bit like ... trying to explain to somebody how to ride a
> bicycle.....
It sure is. One wouldn't expect anyone to learn to ride a bike through
explanation rather than direct experience of riding, so why would one
expect different for tango?
> I've tried all sorts of stratagems to impart the "leading" technique
> to beginning men dancers (and a few women as well).
What happened when you tried getting them to follow?
> I'm continually saying to the leaders ...
... without continually speaking to them.
> The devil is in the details. How do you lead something? Is it with your
> hands? Is it with your chest?.... It is with the totality of your body
Not enough. It's with the totality of your body and hers too.
--
Chris
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:08:52 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
One of the most successful tango intro sessions I have seen was at a
'men's dance festival'. Most of the participants at the festival
were kids, but there was also a bunch of adults, mostly their parents.
This class was all men, maybe about one third gay, the kids were all
busy doing hiphop and ballet -- I'm not sure which of these made the
difference. The whole atmosphere in the workshop was enormously less
fraught than the typical mixed tango intro class, even though many of
the men were not dance-interested -- they were mostly 'just' dads of
boys who were into dance, looking for something to do while their
kids were doing classes.
In 90 minutes, we got further than many mixed classes do after 3 or 4
sessions.
But, I find it enormously difficult to convince men of the value of
practising with other men - let alone attending men-only classes or
practices, or the extreme of attending a men-only intro session. The
closest most will come is them dancing with a woman, and me next to
them, body to body, and leading them to lead the woman -- with this,
they at least get some sense of what the woman might feel like when
he leads her, and the quality of movement this needs from him.
So, anyone with ideas as to how to get this to happen - for new men,
not those already dancing?
Having women learn tango, at a beginner level, is relatively easy
once you have enough good leaders who are willing to help (or 'dance
with bad dancers' as some would put it). But with men, its a
different kettle of fish.
Gary
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:26:38 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
David and All:
David wrote:
>>For me, the hardest thing about understanding Tango has been the leads.
Most teachers I've encountered (thus far) are good at teaching steps, but
not good at communicating how to lead the steps.<<
Techniques for learning to lead can be embedded in the teaching of steps
patterns or structure. They are sometimes left to special classes in
technique. They should be integrated into instruction, but many teachers,
particularly those who concentrate on teaching step patterns, rely on
osmosis for their students to learn to lead.
For myself, I have found the best way for me to learn how to lead any
specific move is to fully understand the woman's elements. For that
reason, I always get frustrated in the typical class where the instructors
show the step together and then divide the class into two parts--one for
the men's step patterns and one for the women's step pattern. I want to
understand the woman's part. Once I understand that, I can lead it. Once
I can lead her movements, my own footwork follows.
Developing leading skills in classes on structure can be particularly
useful because leading skills are general to the movements.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:44:51 +0100
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: "[Tango-L]" <tango-l@mit.edu>
I think you have to bring back the masculinity of the dance. That you can practice Tango without having all that sensuality (male female connection.)
I get this all the time when I take lessons and there are not enough girls. I do hate it when four guys end up dancing by themselves due to their aversion to dancing with another man.
The best way I have seen it encouraged is when during practise the men and women are split to go over detailed moves. The teacher will take a guy and lead the move for us to see. It all depends on the approach, if the teacher does this in a masculine way, say in terms of more direct and less "gentle hands" the students get used to seeing this done.
I mentioned this before in a previous post about how taken I was when watching Godoy's "Tango Emocion" and the men only scene.
The problem is the stereotype of ballroom dancing. That it is all a bit "showy" and men with men just look, well a bit "showy." It is perception, if you as teachers can show that men are allowed to be men, and encouraged to be strong, "aggressive" and masculine then I see men taking the time to learn with other men.
side note:
I am busy looking around for a male only couple I found the other day on the web. I have lost the bookmark but these guys were amazing to watch. Very inspiring!
'Mash
London,UK
"May we be cautious in our perfection lest we lose the ability to dance."
On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 01:08:52PM +1000, Gary Barnes wrote:
> One of the most successful tango intro sessions I have seen was at a
> 'men's dance festival'. Most of the participants at the festival
> were kids, but there was also a bunch of adults, mostly their parents.
>
> This class was all men, maybe about one third gay, the kids were all
> busy doing hiphop and ballet -- I'm not sure which of these made the
> difference. The whole atmosphere in the workshop was enormously less
> fraught than the typical mixed tango intro class, even though many of
> the men were not dance-interested -- they were mostly 'just' dads of
> boys who were into dance, looking for something to do while their
> kids were doing classes.
>
> In 90 minutes, we got further than many mixed classes do after 3 or 4
> sessions.
>
> But, I find it enormously difficult to convince men of the value of
> practising with other men - let alone attending men-only classes or
> practices, or the extreme of attending a men-only intro session. The
> closest most will come is them dancing with a woman, and me next to
> them, body to body, and leading them to lead the woman -- with this,
> they at least get some sense of what the woman might feel like when
> he leads her, and the quality of movement this needs from him.
>
> So, anyone with ideas as to how to get this to happen - for new men,
> not those already dancing?
>
> Having women learn tango, at a beginner level, is relatively easy
> once you have enough good leaders who are willing to help (or 'dance
> with bad dancers' as some would put it). But with men, its a
> different kettle of fish.
>
> Gary
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:13:42 -0700
From: <dchester@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: tango-l@mit.edu
If you want to stay with the bicycle analogy, I recall years back (when teaching my son how to ride a bicycle), explaining things to him was far more effective than having him watch me ride a bike. It also didn't take months for him to figure it out.
This would lead me to conclude that either properly explaning things is useful, or comparing tango to riding a bike is not a good analogy.
Regards,
David
>
> From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
> Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
>
> Manuel wrote:
>
> > it's very hard to make someone else feels what one feels when
> > leading.
>
> It's very easy. You get them to follow.
>
> > It's a liitle bit like ... trying to explain to somebody how to ride a
> > bicycle.....
>
> It sure is. One wouldn't expect anyone to learn to ride a bike through
> explanation rather than direct experience of riding, so why would one
> expect different for tango?
>
> > I've tried all sorts of stratagems to impart the "leading" technique
> > to beginning men dancers (and a few women as well).
>
> What happened when you tried getting them to follow?
>
> > I'm continually saying to the leaders ...
>
> ... without continually speaking to them.
>
> > The devil is in the details. How do you lead something? Is it with your
> > hands? Is it with your chest?.... It is with the totality of your body
>
> Not enough. It's with the totality of your body and hers too.
>
> --
> Chris
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 04:21:41 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: tango-L@MIT.EDU
Hi Gary,
Gary Barnes wrote:
> But, I find it enormously difficult to convince men of the value of practising with other men - let alone attending men-only classes or practices, or the extreme of attending a men-only intro session.
I know one guy, who's been dancing maybe a year, who refuses to attend
my men-only workshops because he wants to dance with women. (Not that
I've held one lately.) I tell him he's an imbecile. We discuss classical
music intermittently, and I give him dance tips whenever he asks,
although I've still never felt his embrace, or he mine.
If dealing with beginner men who are reluctant to dance with dudes, I'd
call them morons, or pussies, or something to get them riled up-- and
more importantly, over their stupid stone-age barrier. And I'd tell them
(the truth) that my first tango exposure was in another man's arms, and
that I learned the most from that; and if they think I'm full of it,
they can get the hell out of my class.
The two things in common about every Very Good male dancer I know:
-- They know the value of dancing with another dude
-- They've taken notes (even if they've discarded them)
If you actually care about helping make better dancers, you'd naturally
be infuriated at men, straight or gay, who are too insecure to dance
with each other, in order to improve. You need tips on persuading them?
Just give a damn, and let them know it.
And if they aren't convinced, tell them to take a hike. If you can't do
that, don't even bother _trying_ to persuade them. Find a man who can do
the job.
Or, just point (and laugh) at the men who walk like Susana Miller.
Hope that helps, brash as it is.
Jake
DC
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:05:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: "Jake Spatz \(TangoDC.com\)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Cc: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
Guys,
An alternative to dancing with men is to insist
that the followers do not back-lead. Too many women,
having been shown the steps they are expected to
produce, do them without getting a lead and fool the
leader into believing that he has made it happen.
Thus, we get the 'automatic' cross or the never-ending
ochos going in every beginner class. When I have
been asked to partner a beginner, I never move until I
get the lead and they quickly figure out how to make
that happen. If they try to force a movement with
their hands, I drop my hand from theirs. If they give
me a verbal lead, I smile and stand my ground. Maybe
this is why men as followers worked? Because the men
would not/could not anticipate the lead and would not
be pushed around?
Let us not forget that the highest compliment one
can bestow upon a follower is that "she waits well."
Nancy
--- "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
wrote:
> Hi Gary,
>
> Gary Barnes wrote:
> > But, I find it enormously difficult to convince
> men of the value of practising with other men - let
> alone attending men-only classes or practices, or
> the extreme of attending a men-only intro session.
> I know one guy, who's been dancing maybe a year, who
> refuses to attend
> my men-only workshops because he wants to dance with
> women. (Not that
> I've held one lately.) I tell him he's an imbecile.
> We discuss classical
> music intermittently, and I give him dance tips
> whenever he asks,
> although I've still never felt his embrace, or he
> mine.
>
> If dealing with beginner men who are reluctant to
> dance with dudes, I'd
> call them morons, or pussies, or something to get
> them riled up-- and
> more importantly, over their stupid stone-age
> barrier. And I'd tell them
> (the truth) that my first tango exposure was in
> another man's arms, and
> that I learned the most from that; and if they think
> I'm full of it,
> they can get the hell out of my class.
>
> The two things in common about every Very Good male
> dancer I know:
> -- They know the value of dancing with another
> dude
> -- They've taken notes (even if they've
> discarded them)
>
> If you actually care about helping make better
> dancers, you'd naturally
> be infuriated at men, straight or gay, who are too
> insecure to dance
> with each other, in order to improve. You need tips
> on persuading them?
> Just give a damn, and let them know it.
>
> And if they aren't convinced, tell them to take a
> hike. If you can't do
> that, don't even bother _trying_ to persuade them.
> Find a man who can do
> the job.
>
> Or, just point (and laugh) at the men who walk like
> Susana Miller.
>
> Hope that helps, brash as it is.
>
> Jake
> DC
>
>
<<Rito es la danza en tu vida
y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:35 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
'Mash wrote:
> I am busy looking around for a male only couple I found the other day
> on the web. I have lost the bookmark but these guys were amazing
These two? https://youtube.com/watch?v=kzcTBUtjzWQ .
--
Chris
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:48:36 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I'm coming late to this thread, but I have what is probably an
interesting observation.
Some people (Nina, as an example) seem to 'feel' things. They have a
particular way of taking in and processing information.
Other people (David's son, see below) seem to do better if they have a
structure so they can analyze things.
Both of these are valid ways of perceiving, processing and
understanding. Psychologically they are quite different.
In addition to the cognitive difference above (well-recognized in
Myers-Briggs and other psychological cognitive inventories), there is
the physiological difference in people's mirror neuron skills.
Mirror neurons govern the ability to 'mimic' something you see in your
own body kinetics. Some people are very good at learning by watching.
While they are watching their sympathetic nervous system is rehearsing
the very same move and learning the technique. Others don't have quite
so much of this in their body and they need to "step through" dance
moves and positions slowly with a partner and "feel" it kinetically to
understand and remember it.
Once again, it's the way we're made. No one can change it. It does
great damage to deprecate someone by saying "just lead!!! it's
obvious!!!" or something like that. Great way to discourage people who
are not made the way you are, to whom it is not obvious. They just need
a different way of approaching and digesting the same information.
Good teachers will recognize these basic differences in personal style
and aptitude and will teach a couple of different way to slice the bread
to make the same sandwich.
Carol Shepherd
dchester@charter.net wrote:
> If you want to stay with the bicycle analogy, I recall years back (when teaching my son how to ride a bicycle), explaining things to him was far more effective than having him watch me ride a bike. It also didn't take months for him to figure it out.
>
> This would lead me to conclude that either properly explaning things is useful, or comparing tango to riding a bike is not a good analogy.
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
>
>
>>
>>From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
>>Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
>>
>>Manuel wrote:
>>
>>
>>>it's very hard to make someone else feels what one feels when
>>>leading.
>>
>>It's very easy. You get them to follow.
>>
>>
>>>It's a liitle bit like ... trying to explain to somebody how to ride a
>>>bicycle.....
>>
>>It sure is. One wouldn't expect anyone to learn to ride a bike through
>>explanation rather than direct experience of riding, so why would one
>>expect different for tango?
>>
>>
>>>I've tried all sorts of stratagems to impart the "leading" technique
>>>to beginning men dancers (and a few women as well).
>>
>>What happened when you tried getting them to follow?
>>
>>
>>>I'm continually saying to the leaders ...
>>
>>... without continually speaking to them.
>>
>>
>>>The devil is in the details. How do you lead something? Is it with your
>>>hands? Is it with your chest?.... It is with the totality of your body
>>
>>Not enough. It's with the totality of your body and hers too.
>>
>>--
>>Chris
>
>
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
"legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:24:38 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Hi Carol,
Carol Shepherd wrote:
> Some people are very good at learning by watching. While they are watching their sympathetic nervous system is rehearsing the very same move and learning the technique. Others don't have quite
> so much of this in their body and they need to "step through" dance moves and positions slowly with a partner and "feel" it kinetically to understand and remember it.
>
> Once again, it's the way we're made. No one can change it.
This is rather more forbidding than my observations and experience
attest. We can _cultivate_ new ways of learning, perceiving, and so
forth: we are an adaptable species, even highly so. In fact, some people
become better dancers, while others become better _students_ of the
dance and thereby improve more rapidly. (I'm not using "students" here
to mean "perpetual" or "mere" students... I use it to mean "one who
continually studies the dance," as an actor-scholar of Shakespeare might
also be called a "student" of the bard.)
> Good teachers will recognize these basic differences in personal style and aptitude and will teach a couple of different way to slice the bread to make the same sandwich.
>
Agreed. And yet one can try to help students cultivate an understanding
unique to tango. I find that when a student suddenly "clicks" (and all
of us do, at numerous times), it's because they've understood the dance
in its own terms, rather than by reference to something else (e.g.,
yoga, sports, grammar, bicycles).
In short, to overemphasize where someone starts is for me a little too
deterministic, and also lacks adventure. (This is also an abstract,
quasi-philosophical point with me generally.) But it's also just honest,
at least when I speak for myself, to say that learning the dance
requires some adapting and growth as an individual.
Perhaps I merely emphasize the other end of the equation, though.
Jake
DC
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:31:25 +0200
From: Anna Zelenina <desdelasnubes@web.de>
Subject: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: shepherd@arborlaw.com, tango-l@mit.edu
Carol,
I think learning by watching is a basic skill that ALL people have, it's a natural talent, like the learning by doing ;).
"observational learning plays an important role in aquiring motor skills throughout the human lifespan".
As detailed in the Dec. 20 issue of the Journal of Neuroscience, researchers, using functional magnetic resonance imaging,
found that when a person watches someone else perform a task with the intention of later replicating the observed performance, motor areas of the brain are activated in a fashion similar to that with accompanies actual movement.
(see Journal of Neuroscience, December 2006 "Modulation of Neural Activity during Ovservational Learning of Actions and Their Sequential ORders", pdf available on the website).
The important part is the /intention/ of replicating.
Observational learning is common, but it seems that the skill is better developed in countries
were people more often practice this, they are more trained to learn by observation.
The dance teaching in countries like Argentina or Cuba develops observation skills:
people dance with you and they also teach you sequences by dancing and having you watch.
People learn a lot just by observing others in the milonga. And it works.
In Germany, for instance, many dance teachers like to disseminate movements and to teach the dance step by step,
giving verbal explanations of the movements etc. People get used to being served the disseminated dance,
and they won't digest it if it's not divided in pieces. But that doesn't mean it's the way they are made
and that they could not change that. Everything can change.
Todo cambia. Cambia el modo de pensar, cambia todo en este mundo ;)
Anna
> Some people are very good at learning by watching.
> While they are watching their sympathetic nervous system is rehearsing
> the very same move and learning the technique. Others don't have quite
> so much of this in their body and they need to "step through" dance
> moves and positions slowly with a partner and "feel" it kinetically to
> understand and remember it.
>
> Once again, it's the way we're made. No one can change it. It does
> great damage to deprecate someone by saying "just lead!!! it's
> obvious!!!" or something like that. Great way to discourage people who
> are not made the way you are, to whom it is not obvious. They just need
> a different way of approaching and digesting the same information.
>
> Good teachers will recognize these basic differences in personal style
> and aptitude and will teach a couple of different way to slice the bread
> to make the same sandwich.
>
> Carol Shepherd
>
> dchester@charter.net wrote:
> > If you want to stay with the bicycle analogy, I recall years back (when teaching my son how to ride a bicycle), explaining things to him was far more effective than having him watch me ride a bike. It also didn't take months for him to figure it out.
> >
> > This would lead me to conclude that either properly explaning things is useful, or comparing tango to riding a bike is not a good analogy.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
> >>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
> >>Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> >>
> >>Manuel wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>it's very hard to make someone else feels what one feels when
> >>>leading.
> >>
> >>It's very easy. You get them to follow.
> >>
> >>
> >>>It's a liitle bit like ... trying to explain to somebody how to ride a
> >>>bicycle.....
> >>
> >>It sure is. One wouldn't expect anyone to learn to ride a bike through
> >>explanation rather than direct experience of riding, so why would one
> >>expect different for tango?
> >>
> >>
> >>>I've tried all sorts of stratagems to impart the "leading" technique
> >>>to beginning men dancers (and a few women as well).
> >>
> >>What happened when you tried getting them to follow?
> >>
> >>
> >>>I'm continually saying to the leaders ...
> >>
> >>... without continually speaking to them.
> >>
> >>
> >>>The devil is in the details. How do you lead something? Is it with your
> >>>hands? Is it with your chest?.... It is with the totality of your body
> >>
> >>Not enough. It's with the totality of your body and hers too.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Chris
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Carol Ruth Shepherd
> Arborlaw PLC
> Ann Arbor MI USA
> 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
> https://arborlaw.com
>
> "legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
>
Erweitern Sie FreeMail zu einem noch leistungsst?rkeren E-Mail-Postfach!
Mehr Infos unter https://produkte.web.de/club/?mc1131
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:20 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Carol wrote:
> Some people are very good at learning by watching. While they are
> watching their sympathetic nervous system is rehearsing the very same
> move
Learning by watching is indeed good for learning the "very same move".
That's why it's so popular with teachers of preset steps and sequences.
> and learning the technique.
But it is hopeless for learning to actually dance.
The technique comes from the invisible isometrics of body and embrace.
There's nothing there to see.
Even in the visible outcome, the difference that makes a move feel great
is microscopic. You can't see it when three metres from the instructor and
you can't see it when three millimetres from your partner.
Carol wrote in a later message:
> The best method I have seen to teach women to follow (any dance), is to
> simply ask them to close their eyes
On that we agree ;)
Technique is learnt through not what we see, but what we feel.
--
Chris
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:31:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: tango-l@mit.edu
--- Anna Zelenina <desdelasnubes@web.de> wrote:
> I think learning by watching is a basic skill that
> ALL people have, it's a natural talent, like the
> learning by doing ;).
>
> ... But that doesn't mean it's the way they are made
> and that they could not change that. Everything can
> change.
Hi, Anna,
I'm afraid I disagree. It _is_ the way some people
are made. Not everyone is best served by the same
type of instruction. Some people learn dance better
by watching, some by hearing an explanation, some by
being guided through it. Most people learn best by a
combination of methods, followed up by practice. Most
people can learn to get something out of the mode of
instruction which is not optimal for them, but they
have to learn to learn that way. Good teachers teach
through several modalities when they teach a group, to
optimize the experience for everyone.
Marisa
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:45:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: Anna Zelenina <desdelasnubes@web.de>, tango-l@mit.edu
Yes, but to watch what? That, I think is where people can
get stuck. It's interesting to what people see and don't
see as they progress in tango. At one point after a demo,
they may think "Wow, cool steps!". Eventually, they may
(or may not) focus more on whether a couple appears
connected or not and the cool steps don't matter.
As been pointed out before, good teachers use a variety of
ways to get their ideas across. And perhaps this will
spark their students to develop methods on their own to
advance their learning.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Anna Zelenina <desdelasnubes@web.de> wrote:
> Carol,
>
> I think learning by watching is a basic skill that ALL
> people have, it's a natural talent, like the learning by
> doing ;).
> "observational learning plays an important role in
> aquiring motor skills throughout the human lifespan".
> As detailed in the Dec. 20 issue of the Journal of
> Neuroscience, researchers, using functional magnetic
> resonance imaging,
> found that when a person watches someone else perform a
> task with the intention of later replicating the observed
> performance, motor areas of the brain are activated in a
> fashion similar to that with accompanies actual movement.
>
> (see Journal of Neuroscience, December 2006 "Modulation
> of Neural Activity during Ovservational Learning of
> Actions and Their Sequential ORders", pdf available on
> the website).
> The important part is the /intention/ of replicating.
>
> Observational learning is common, but it seems that the
> skill is better developed in countries
> were people more often practice this, they are more
> trained to learn by observation.
> The dance teaching in countries like Argentina or Cuba
> develops observation skills:
> people dance with you and they also teach you sequences
> by dancing and having you watch.
> People learn a lot just by observing others in the
> milonga. And it works.
> In Germany, for instance, many dance teachers like to
> disseminate movements and to teach the dance step by
> step,
> giving verbal explanations of the movements etc. People
> get used to being served the disseminated dance,
> and they won't digest it if it's not divided in pieces.
> But that doesn't mean it's the way they are made
> and that they could not change that. Everything can
> change.
> Todo cambia. Cambia el modo de pensar, cambia todo en
> este mundo ;)
>
> Anna
>
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:50:43 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
To: tango-l@mit.edu
On mirror neurons and "learning by watching":
Apparently according to latest research mirror neuron effects are
stronger if you have previously learned a movement similar to the
movement pictured, and weaker to non-existent if you have not yet
learned the movement.
This article supports my claim that only certain people are going to be
able to "learn by watching," and that it is NOT a 'basic skill that all
people have, a natural talent.'
It may be so for YOU...but not for everybody, and especially not for
beginners to dancing.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3204/01-resup.html
"Research Update
Daniel Glaser's Latest Study With Ballet and Capoeira Dancers
If you're skilled at a physical activity like ballet, the part of your
brain that controls movement activates differently than the same part in
the brain of someone who's not skilled in that activity. That's what
researchers at the University of College London (UCL) have found in a
fascinating new study. The study has implications for helping injured
athletes continue to train without moving a muscle, and perhaps even
helping stroke victims regain lost movement.
In the UCL study, dancers from London's Royal Ballet and experts in
capoeira, a Brazilian martial arts form, were asked to watch short
videos of either ballet or capoeira dancers performing brief dance
moves. While watching the videos, the dancers were lying perfectly still
in an MRI scanner. A control group of non-dancers also participated in
the study, which was published in the December 2004 online edition of
Cerebral Cortex.
The researchers found that areas of the brain collectively known as the
"mirror neuron system" showed more activity when a dancer saw movements
he had been trained perform than when he observed movements he hadn't
been trained to perform. (All the dancers in the study were male.) The
mirror system in the non-dancers showed appreciably less activity while
watching the videos than either of the dancers' mirror systems, and the
response it had was the same whether it was watching ballet or capoeira.
Earlier studies with monkeys revealed that brain cells called mirror
neurons respond both when we do something, like pick up an object, and
when we simply watch someone else do it. It was known that these neurons
fire when we perform an action, but it came as a surprise that the same
cells also fired when we only saw that action being performed. The new
study went a step further by showing that such a system operates
differently depending on what you are physically expert at doing."
Anna Zelenina wrote:
> Carol,
>
> I think learning by watching is a basic skill that ALL people have, it's a natural talent, like the learning by doing ;).
> "observational learning plays an important role in aquiring motor skills throughout the human lifespan".
> As detailed in the Dec. 20 issue of the Journal of Neuroscience, researchers, using functional magnetic resonance imaging,
> found that when a person watches someone else perform a task with the intention of later replicating the observed performance, motor areas of the brain are activated in a fashion similar to that with accompanies actual movement.
> (see Journal of Neuroscience, December 2006 "Modulation of Neural Activity during Ovservational Learning of Actions and Their Sequential ORders", pdf available on the website).
> The important part is the /intention/ of replicating.
>
> Observational learning is common, but it seems that the skill is better developed in countries
> were people more often practice this, they are more trained to learn by observation.
> The dance teaching in countries like Argentina or Cuba develops observation skills:
> people dance with you and they also teach you sequences by dancing and having you watch.
> People learn a lot just by observing others in the milonga. And it works.
> In Germany, for instance, many dance teachers like to disseminate movements and to teach the dance step by step,
> giving verbal explanations of the movements etc. People get used to being served the disseminated dance,
> and they won't digest it if it's not divided in pieces. But that doesn't mean it's the way they are made
> and that they could not change that. Everything can change.
> Todo cambia. Cambia el modo de pensar, cambia todo en este mundo ;)
>
> Anna
>
>> Some people are very good at learning by watching.
>> While they are watching their sympathetic nervous system is rehearsing
>> the very same move and learning the technique. Others don't have quite
>> so much of this in their body and they need to "step through" dance
>> moves and positions slowly with a partner and "feel" it kinetically to
>> understand and remember it.
>>
>> Once again, it's the way we're made. No one can change it. It does
>> great damage to deprecate someone by saying "just lead!!! it's
>> obvious!!!" or something like that. Great way to discourage people who
>> are not made the way you are, to whom it is not obvious. They just need
>> a different way of approaching and digesting the same information.
>>
>> Good teachers will recognize these basic differences in personal style
>> and aptitude and will teach a couple of different way to slice the bread
>> to make the same sandwich.
>>
>> Carol Shepherd
>>
>> dchester@charter.net wrote:
>>> If you want to stay with the bicycle analogy, I recall years back (when teaching my son how to ride a bicycle), explaining things to him was far more effective than having him watch me ride a bike. It also didn't take months for him to figure it out.
>>>
>>> This would lead me to conclude that either properly explaning things is useful, or comparing tango to riding a bike is not a good analogy.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
>>>> Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
>>>>
>>>> Manuel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> it's very hard to make someone else feels what one feels when
>>>>> leading.
>>>> It's very easy. You get them to follow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's a liitle bit like ... trying to explain to somebody how to ride a
>>>>> bicycle.....
>>>> It sure is. One wouldn't expect anyone to learn to ride a bike through
>>>> explanation rather than direct experience of riding, so why would one
>>>> expect different for tango?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I've tried all sorts of stratagems to impart the "leading" technique
>>>>> to beginning men dancers (and a few women as well).
>>>> What happened when you tried getting them to follow?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm continually saying to the leaders ...
>>>> ... without continually speaking to them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The devil is in the details. How do you lead something? Is it with your
>>>>> hands? Is it with your chest?.... It is with the totality of your body
>>>> Not enough. It's with the totality of your body and hers too.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Carol Ruth Shepherd
>> Arborlaw PLC
>> Ann Arbor MI USA
>> 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
>> https://arborlaw.com
>>
>> "legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
>>
>
>
> Erweitern Sie FreeMail zu einem noch leistungsst?rkeren E-Mail-Postfach!
> Mehr Infos unter https://produkte.web.de/club/?mc1131
>
>
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
"legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:30 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Four Layers of Tango Learning
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Carol wrote:
> This article supports my claim that only certain people are going to be
> able to "learn by watching,"
Actually it doesn't. It identifies learning as part of the cause, but no
part of the result. It says
"the mirror neuron system showed more activity when a dancer saw movements
he had been trained [to] perform ... "
This means: You can get turned on by watching something you've learnt.
It does not mean: You can get to learn something by watching it.
Hence
"The mirror system in the non-dancers showed appreciably less activity ..."
does not mean the non-dancer is less able to learn by watching.
Just he gets less turned on by dance. Cue Huck: "No sh*t Sherlock!" ;)
--
Chris
