5418 Gender Imbalance
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:18:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I don't know of a solution to the problem of women
sitting out for most of the night. I am aware of it
and try to accomodate. But, I think leaders are
selecting with such criteria as:
Followers with/to whom they:
- like to dance
- are closer friends
- study
- teach
- are attracted
- can make them better if they dance with them
- etc
Given a long list, everyone has a different agenda.
For example, I have seen leaders who rise to being one
of the best dancers in the community and, in the
process, they only dance with followers who can make
them better. I don't believe in finding good or bad
in that. It is what it is. My point is that there
are many reasons why leaders just don't dance with a
large variety of followers.
I notice extremely good followers who, for one reason
or another, sit a lot. That always amazes me. But,
everyone is different, everyone has their lists, and
it is what it is, I guess.
My question is, organizing your thoughts like this, is
there any way to approach the problem?
A side note: Does anyone know of any wording of ads
that attract men to the dance? I, once, ran an ad
that read something like "Women can dance! So, we
teach the men to treat them right!". My phone rang
off the hook. Guess who called! Wives who wanted to
bring their husbands! Any ideas to attract more men?
--- rhink2@netscape.net wrote:
> I recall the time (perhaps 12 years ago) in my area
> (San Francisco) when there were no discernible
> tandas.? I should say there were no cortinas.? At
> that time most tangueros honored the multiple-dance
> custom, but it was not based on any style of music.
>
> Given the gender imbalance at many milongas in the
> U.S., I'm beginning to think tanda-less milongas are
> not so bad.? It seems far worse to have many people,
> ususally ladies, who never get to dance the whole
> evening.
>
> In the swing dance community, the rule is 1 dance
> and move on.? Even the custom of escorting one's
> partner is sacrificed in order to maximize mixing. I
> suspect this approach would never work in Argentina,
> but in the U.S. it might help achieve the goal of
> distributing the joy of tango more evenly.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> More new features than ever. Check out the new
> AIM(R) Mail ! - https://webmail.aim.com
>
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:29:57 -0500
From: m i l e s <tangobliss@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi,
>I don't know of a solution to the problem of women
>sitting out for most of the night.
The simple solution is to buy two pairs of shoes...
and learn to lead.
M i l e s.
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:38:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Actually, I should clarify on the advertising. I,
originally, ran the ad with a model in the picture. I
called the newspaper to ask why I had such success and
she told me that women wanted to be like the model.
(Don't shoot me! SHE said it!)
Later, I ran another ad with the same words, but
without the model and there was a much smaller
response.
Anyway, I did notice that, in the first case, a lot of
wives called.
Again, the point of bringing this up in the first
place is to ask if anyone knows of ways to attract
more men to the dance.
--- Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't know of a solution to the problem of women
> sitting out for most of the night. I am aware of it
> and try to accomodate. But, I think leaders are
> selecting with such criteria as:
>
> Followers with/to whom they:
>
> - like to dance
> - are closer friends
> - study
> - teach
> - are attracted
> - can make them better if they dance with them
> - etc
>
> Given a long list, everyone has a different agenda.
>
> For example, I have seen leaders who rise to being
> one
> of the best dancers in the community and, in the
> process, they only dance with followers who can make
> them better. I don't believe in finding good or bad
> in that. It is what it is. My point is that there
> are many reasons why leaders just don't dance with a
> large variety of followers.
>
> I notice extremely good followers who, for one
> reason
> or another, sit a lot. That always amazes me. But,
> everyone is different, everyone has their lists, and
> it is what it is, I guess.
>
> My question is, organizing your thoughts like this,
> is
> there any way to approach the problem?
>
> A side note: Does anyone know of any wording of ads
> that attract men to the dance? I, once, ran an ad
> that read something like "Women can dance! So, we
> teach the men to treat them right!". My phone rang
> off the hook. Guess who called! Wives who wanted
> to
> bring their husbands! Any ideas to attract more
> men?
>
>
>
> --- rhink2@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > I recall the time (perhaps 12 years ago) in my
> area
> > (San Francisco) when there were no discernible
> > tandas.? I should say there were no cortinas.? At
> > that time most tangueros honored the
> multiple-dance
> > custom, but it was not based on any style of
> music.
> >
> > Given the gender imbalance at many milongas in the
> > U.S., I'm beginning to think tanda-less milongas
> are
> > not so bad.? It seems far worse to have many
> people,
> > ususally ladies, who never get to dance the whole
> > evening.
> >
> > In the swing dance community, the rule is 1 dance
> > and move on.? Even the custom of escorting one's
> > partner is sacrificed in order to maximize mixing.
> I
> > suspect this approach would never work in
> Argentina,
> > but in the U.S. it might help achieve the goal of
> > distributing the joy of tango more evenly.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
>
> > More new features than ever. Check out the new
> > AIM(R) Mail ! - https://webmail.aim.com
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
>
>
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 15:01:10 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
To: tango-l@mit.edu
One solution to teach them how to get dances. Sitting in
one spot all night, expecting someone to come up to you is
not a very effective way to meet people. The women who are
successful in getting dances are the ones who aren't afraid
to get up, will visit the food table which is a great place
to strike up a conversation (without hinting about a
dance), and act more sociable. I don't think that acting
like a prima donna works in the States.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't know of a solution to the problem of women
> sitting out for most of the night. I am aware of it
> and try to accomodate.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 00:13 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Trini wrote:
> women who are successful in getting dances ... will visit the food table
USA milongas have food tables??? Coo... Of the couple of hundred milongas
I've visited in Europe and Argentina, I can't recall even one having a
food table.
> Sitting in one spot all night, expecting someone to come up to you is
> not a very effective way to meet people.
Sitting in one spot is very effective around here. If I see a girl
dancing, I only have to watch where she returns to sit, to know where
to find her later for an invitation.
> I tend to wander around, sometimes in search of a partner
That sounds to me like a cause of the problem, rather than a cure.
--
Chris
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:33:19 -0700
From: dwyliu@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
<30ad4e030801031733s21676d46s379fe6f27e5192f9@mail.gmail.com>
To be fair, let me note that what Trini writes also applies to decent extent
to our community as well (Phoenix Arizona).
Best,
David
On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 00:13 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> Trini wrote:
>
> > women who are successful in getting dances ... will visit the food table
>
> USA milongas have food tables??? Coo... Of the couple of hundred milongas
> I've visited in Europe and Argentina, I can't recall even one having a
> food table.
>
> > Sitting in one spot all night, expecting someone to come up to you is
> > not a very effective way to meet people.
>
> Sitting in one spot is very effective around here. If I see a girl
> dancing, I only have to watch where she returns to sit, to know where
> to find her later for an invitation.
>
> > I tend to wander around, sometimes in search of a partner
>
> That sounds to me like a cause of the problem, rather than a cure.
>
> --
> Chris
>
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 05:29:48 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I agree completely, but want to amplify the "Sitting in one spot all night" thing. WHERE you sit is supremely important. At any venue there will be predominate traffic flows - to and from: the front door, the bathroom, the dancefloor, and the food, as Trini pointed out. Women who want to dance, do well to put themselves in or near the traffic flows.
Also, it helps greatly to be paying attention to every available guy (at least the ones you want to dance with) that comes near or even in your direction, making eye contact if he looks your way.
Another tip: While it can be enjoyable to sit with other women so you can chat while you wait, I strongly recommend sitting/standing by yourself if you can, or at least avoid sitting in a cluster of women.
Another tip: After the tanda has started, get up and cruise around. Any men hanging around instead of dancing are fair game. Like Trini said, being sociable at the food table can result in an invitation. It can be even more effective to be moving as a tanda is ending and people are coming off the floor, looking for their next partners.
Another tip: Never be shy about asking a man to dance (at least outside of BsAs).
J
TangoMoments.com
> From: patangos@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
>
> One solution to teach them how to get dances. Sitting in
> one spot all night, expecting someone to come up to you is
> not a very effective way to meet people. The women who are
> successful in getting dances are the ones who aren't afraid
> to get up, will visit the food table which is a great place
> to strike up a conversation (without hinting about a
> dance), and act more sociable. I don't think that acting
> like a prima donna works in the States.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
https://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:47:45 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Do not want to sit in the corner at a dance party?
The only thing which really works:
Make tango friends.
And the better you dance, the easier it is to make them.
Igor Polk
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:24:17 -0600
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
To: "Tango For Her" <tangopeer@yahoo.com>, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Tom Stermitz had a nice post on TANGO-L about this sometime in 2006 or
2007. The crux of the matter seems to be selling the possibility of
being the master of a situation: rather than being swept off their feet
by passion, they are the ones doing the sweeping.
In general, I find Tom's views on community development refreshing and
intelligent. I think it would be well worth your while to look up his
old posts in the archives.
Christopher
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:38:08 -0800 (PST), "Tango For Her"
<tangopeer@yahoo.com> said:
> Actually, I should clarify on the advertising. I,
> originally, ran the ad with a model in the picture. I
> called the newspaper to ask why I had such success and
> she told me that women wanted to be like the model.
> (Don't shoot me! SHE said it!)
>
> Later, I ran another ad with the same words, but
> without the model and there was a much smaller
> response.
>
> Anyway, I did notice that, in the first case, a lot of
> wives called.
>
> Again, the point of bringing this up in the first
> place is to ask if anyone knows of ways to attract
> more men to the dance.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't know of a solution to the problem of women
> > sitting out for most of the night. I am aware of it
> > and try to accomodate. But, I think leaders are
> > selecting with such criteria as:
> >
> > Followers with/to whom they:
> >
> > - like to dance
> > - are closer friends
> > - study
> > - teach
> > - are attracted
> > - can make them better if they dance with them
> > - etc
> >
> > Given a long list, everyone has a different agenda.
> >
> > For example, I have seen leaders who rise to being
> > one
> > of the best dancers in the community and, in the
> > process, they only dance with followers who can make
> > them better. I don't believe in finding good or bad
> > in that. It is what it is. My point is that there
> > are many reasons why leaders just don't dance with a
> > large variety of followers.
> >
> > I notice extremely good followers who, for one
> > reason
> > or another, sit a lot. That always amazes me. But,
> > everyone is different, everyone has their lists, and
> > it is what it is, I guess.
> >
> > My question is, organizing your thoughts like this,
> > is
> > there any way to approach the problem?
> >
> > A side note: Does anyone know of any wording of ads
> > that attract men to the dance? I, once, ran an ad
> > that read something like "Women can dance! So, we
> > teach the men to treat them right!". My phone rang
> > off the hook. Guess who called! Wives who wanted
> > to
> > bring their husbands! Any ideas to attract more
> > men?
> >
> >
> >
> > --- rhink2@netscape.net wrote:
> >
> > > I recall the time (perhaps 12 years ago) in my
> > area
> > > (San Francisco) when there were no discernible
> > > tandas.? I should say there were no cortinas.? At
> > > that time most tangueros honored the
> > multiple-dance
> > > custom, but it was not based on any style of
> > music.
> > >
> > > Given the gender imbalance at many milongas in the
> > > U.S., I'm beginning to think tanda-less milongas
> > are
> > > not so bad.? It seems far worse to have many
> > people,
> > > ususally ladies, who never get to dance the whole
> > > evening.
> > >
> > > In the swing dance community, the rule is 1 dance
> > > and move on.? Even the custom of escorting one's
> > > partner is sacrificed in order to maximize mixing.
> > I
> > > suspect this approach would never work in
> > Argentina,
> > > but in the U.S. it might help achieve the goal of
> > > distributing the joy of tango more evenly.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > More new features than ever. Check out the new
> > > AIM(R) Mail ! - https://webmail.aim.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 00:29:35 -0800
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Jan 3, 2008, at 10:24 PM, ceverett@ceverett.com wrote:
> Tom Stermitz had a nice post on TANGO-L about this sometime in 2006 or
> 2007. The crux of the matter seems to be selling the possibility of
> being the master of a situation: rather than being swept off their
> feet
> by passion, they are the ones doing the sweeping.
> ....
> Christopher
Yes, the important thing for the guys is that they feel successful.
Like they have achieved mastery of something, and have the knowledge
and confidence to lead a beautiful woman into a dance.
In tango nothing happens without the guy coming up with an idea and
then executing. This is the crux of the "performance anxiety" problem.
And in tango you are expecting him to succeed or fail in front of a
woman, which loads it even more.
You want to retain men? Leave them at the end of each class confident,
with the new ideas well-integrated with things they already know. For
a beginner, that might just be walking.
The business strategy of "teach something difficult so they will take
privates", doesn't succeed with men. They'll just quit. Maybe they are
cheap; But really they feel unsuccessful and frustrated.
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 14:48:13 +0100
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
My 2 cents:
I believe there are several things in Western society that promotes the
gender imbalance.
One of them is women's failure to make dancing something that is
_required_ for meeting them. It is now considered absolutely normal,
that women per definitionem are able to dance at some level (as in
nightclub), but men are OK if they are just drinking beer at the bar.
Even in places where dancing is more popular, women whom are able to
dance well vastly outnumber dancing men. If women would at least declare
that they _expect_ "real men" to be able to (partner) dance, the
situation would be a lot different. Many men believes that dancing is a
sissy type of thing only women do (at least until a few years ago, this
was the case in Hungary - many dancers put an awful lot of effort to
change that: result is when I say I'm a tango teacher the answer is
invariably "wow, tango is very hard to learn isn't it?" and after a few
minutes of talking, people ask me about courses and locations).
Within existing communities, the average follower does not tend to
indicate that she would gladly dance with the guys trying to get a
dance. Cabeceo was invented for this reason, and really: I can't really
find anything more interesting (and effective). However, it only works
well if ladies distinguish between partners and pay attention to those
they want to dance with. Most lady dancers take whomever asks them to
dance - mostly because of the gender balance - with the exception of
dancers they consider bad or repulsive, but it is very hard to see who
they really prefer. This also creates a situation where men feel that
they have to do nothing to get partners. There is no challenge, and
therefore: little reward and little sense of success. If women would be
more keen to play the GAME, then men would feel that they have to really
pay attention to the women and would be more into the type of dancing
that promotes less show, more _real_ tango: guys would face that
mastering tango is really mastering how to please a women while dancing
and not just mastering steps. Of course, while a guy in the majority
urban population may socialize without the possibility of (his ego)
getting hurt, this is not an easy thing to attract guys with such a
"dangerous" environment, however the overall "feeling" of the milongas
would be a lot more sexy and therefore the public perception of tango
dancing would be more appealing (sex sells - especially among men). All
in all the possibility of being rejected is a lot lower than at a club,
where no partner dancing is involved. (Oh yes: the idea that men
generally learn tango for the sake of tango - it is rubbish. My
experience is: 5 out of 10 guys does tango to meet women or to learn a
dance with which they can meet women, or consider it a training to learn
how to handle women, so they are more successful with them. The other 5
already came with a girlfriend/spouse...)
Cheers,
Aron
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-24-071
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 17:39:59 +0100
From: desdelasnubes@web.de
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
To: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
> "Sitting in one spot all night" thing. WHERE you sit is supremely important. At any venue there will be predominate traffic flows - to and from: the front door, the bathroom, the dancefloor, and the food, as Trini pointed out. Women who want to dance, do well to put themselves in or near the traffic flows.
Thank you for the tips, but they might not apply to everyone. I like to sit in one spot, but that's not where the traffic flows. Sometimes dancers tell me: you should sit where the traffic flows so that I can easily see you. But I rather prefer a more quiet spot where I can listen to the music and watch the dancers and I won't be disturbed by a stop-and-go-traffic back and forth from the bar or bathroom. I won't cruise around either. I'm convinced sitting is more rewarding. Why should I go hunting and ask a man to dance? I think the man I like to dance with will have eyes to see and he will find me. I prefer to be invited. A good leader will have the initiative and good eyes. I also consider patience is a prerequisite for tango. For instance I would watch one of the best dancers, he has more than 20 years of dancing experience and I love to watch him dance. I guess I have watched him for years, thinking how wonderful it would be to dance with him. And then a few weeks ag!
o, he came to me and invited me to dance. It was worth waiting for it;)
Anna
> Another tip: After the tanda has started, get up and cruise around. Any men hanging around instead of dancing are fair game. Like Trini said, being sociable at the food table can result in an invitation. It can be even more effective to be moving as a tanda is ending and people are coming off the floor, looking for their next partners.
> Another tip: Never be shy about asking a man to dance (at least outside of BsAs).
>
> J
> TangoMoments.com
>
>
> > From: patangos@yahoo.com
> > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
> >
> > One solution to teach them how to get dances. Sitting in
> > one spot all night, expecting someone to come up to you is
> > not a very effective way to meet people. The women who are
> > successful in getting dances are the ones who aren't afraid
> > to get up, will visit the food table which is a great place
> > to strike up a conversation (without hinting about a
> > dance), and act more sociable. I don't think that acting
> > like a prima donna works in the States.
> >
> > Trini de Pittsburgh
> >
>
>
> Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
> https://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007
>
Jetzt neu! Sch?tzen Sie Ihren PC mit McAfee und WEB.DE. 30 Tage
kostenlos testen. https://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/startseite/?mc2220
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:43:01 -0500
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender imbalance, tips for female followers
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C702152811@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Tip one: come to NYC. Unlike other cities I travel to, here most
milongas have more male leaders than female followers. There are also
more female leaders than there are male followers, which makes the
gender imbalance even worse, as it takes two "eligible" women out of
circulation. Through Darwinian laws of survival, more men work harder
to improve their tango, so the number of very good male leaders
outnumbers the number of very good female followers.
Tip two: Arrive late, stay late. For example, at the all night milonga,
even if there is close to gender balance early in the evening, or rarer
still, more women than men, this is very temporary; after a few hours
it skews heavily male, and closer to the end of the night almost two to
one male/female ratio. Seems at around 1 or so, women leave early en
masse, as if on cue. The men who are dancing are aware of this, latch on
to their partner, and rotation of partners ceases. Also, better dancers
tend to come later and stay later. Dont ask me why. Maybe the people
who come early are there for the free beginner or intermediate lesson
early in the night and have had enough after a few hours. So if you are
a woman visiting NYC, take a nap in the afternoon, have a leisurely
dinner, see a show, come to the milonga after midnight, you will not be
sitting out any tandas. Also, the floor craft improves as the night
goes on and the crowd thins out. And if you are willing to dance with a
non-professional, you will have very little competition, as the better
local women will only dance with their best friends or one of the many
male teachers or professionals in attendance.
I disagree with Igor, who says that becoming a better dancer gives you
more dance partners. It is just the opposite. There are less partners
that you will be interested in dancing with.
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:20:49 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender imbalance, tips for female followers
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Martin:
"I disagree with Igor, who says that becoming a better dancer gives you
more dance partners. It is just the opposite. There are less partners
that you will be interested in dancing with."
Martin, I did not write that.
I wrote:
"the better you dance, the easier it is to make friends"
And of course the better quality that friends are.
Then one comes to a stage, like you described, when one has a handful of the
best "friends" and dance with them. However, if a new one is needed - here
you are, no problemo !
So, learn quality dancing, make tango friends, and you always be dancing !!!
This is the best tip which surely works for the rest of you life.
Igor Polk
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 01:08:59 +0000
From: rockies@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
<010520080108.18627.477ED8AB000B96F2000048C322135285730101009B9D@comcast.net>
I sent a private reply to TFH, but he suggested it was probably worth sharing with the group, so here it is.
> > -------------- Original message
> > ----------------------
> > From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
> > > Actually, I should clarify on the advertising. I,
> > > originally, ran the ad with a model in the
> > picture. I
> > > called the newspaper to ask why I had such success
> > and
> > > she told me that women wanted to be like the
> > model.
> > > (Don't shoot me! SHE said it!)
> >
Yup, therein lies the rub with advertising. Women
often look at other women and evaluate them, especially if they are beautiful. Look at women's
magazines, when they are advertising for beauty products, they will show beautiful women in the ads.
The association for women is that if they use that product, they will be as beautiful as the model in
the photo. Men too are attracted by models (although unlike women, will NOT look at photos of other men
and make the association that the product will make them look as good as 'him,' they simply don't care
to compare to other men), but the subject matter is not compelling enough with the way you have worded
it. You might want to consider running your ad with wording like this-
Single Men: Would you like to meet attractive single women? Come to our Argentine Tango classes
-in a very male dominated magazine and STILL keep the photo of the model. *Then* you will get the
response from only men. So... maybe put it in a car magazine (if you had lots of cash). Alternatives
would be Autotrader type magazines, or on bulletin boards at motorcycle/powerboat
sales rooms, mens locker rooms at the gym, locker rooms in colleges (hand some out to the players), mens bathrooms where they have the cork boards above the, er, facilities, etc.
I agree with Eron, there is a stereotype, especially in North America that dancing is not for real men. Rather, sports are thought of as a manly activity. However, the overall allure of meeting available women WILL outweigh for most men the stereotypical view of the activity. Sex sells, as Eron said, and, therefore, so does the opportunity to meet available women. The retention rate in the community of these men may be low, but even if it's 10% there will still be 10% more men than were available before. I think men in North American don't realize how much women universally love to dance. It is extremely rare that a woman doesn't like to dance. Changing the stereotype is quite difficult, but targeted advertising may do just that, eventually.
Cheers!
Randy
> >
>
>
>
>
> ____
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
>
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:06:02 +0100
From: Andy Ungureanu <abungureanu@googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender imbalance, tips for female followers
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Am 04.01.2008 22:20 schrieb Igor Polk :
> Martin:
> "I disagree with Igor, who says that becoming a better dancer gives you
> more dance partners. It is just the opposite. There are less partners
> that you will be interested in dancing with."
>
Igor:
> So, learn quality dancing, make tango friends, and you always be dancing !!!
> This is the best tip which surely works for the rest of you life.
>
>
>
Igor, how can you say this if you don't have a clue how you will feel
in 10 years?
This is simply Martin's experience, which I can absolutely confirm. Yes,
being an experienced dancer means you can choose, you can dance with
everyone you want, but you don't want it any more. You end up dancing
less (but better).
Andy
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 19:11:01 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender imbalance, tips for female followers
To: "Andy Ungureanu" <abungureanu@googlemail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
on the other hand you can make much more of the not so great dance partners
too, as you are able to figure out their attempts at leading and they can't
throw you off balance so easily either. this from the eyes of a woman, for
men it should be even easier.
> Am 04.01.2008 22:20 schrieb Igor Polk :
>> Martin:
>> "I disagree with Igor, who says that becoming a better dancer gives you
>> more dance partners. It is just the opposite. There are less partners
>> that you will be interested in dancing with."
>>
> Igor:
>> So, learn quality dancing, make tango friends, and you always be dancing
>> !!!
>> This is the best tip which surely works for the rest of you life.
>>
>>
>>
> Igor, how can you say this if you don't have a clue how you will feel
> in 10 years?
> This is simply Martin's experience, which I can absolutely confirm. Yes,
> being an experienced dancer means you can choose, you can dance with
> everyone you want, but you don't want it any more. You end up dancing
> less (but better).
> Andy
>
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:57:39 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender imbalance, tips for female followers
To: "Andy Ungureanu" <abungureanu@googlemail.com>, "Astrid"
<astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
I absolutely agree with Astrid. If a man can dance well, I honestly believe
he can have an enjoyable dance with just about anyone. I don't spend my time
looking only for women who are great dancers; I think men who do that just
want to show off how good they are. I'll be honest - I dance with women I like.
I like the way they dance, the way they behave, the way they treat people;
I like their personality. I just like them as people, so I want to dance with
them. It's that simple. If they're great dancers - that's just a bonus.
If a woman is a great dancer but not a nice person; I'll never dance with her.
Keith, HK
On Sat Jan 5 18:11 , "Astrid" sent:
>on the other hand you can make much more of the not so great dance partners
>too, as you are able to figure out their attempts at leading and they can't
>throw you off balance so easily either. this from the eyes of a woman, for
>men it should be even easier.
>
>> Am 04.01.2008 22:20 schrieb Igor Polk :
>>> Martin:
>>> "I disagree with Igor, who says that becoming a better dancer gives you
>>> more dance partners. It is just the opposite. There are less partners
>>> that you will be interested in dancing with."
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:07:37 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
However, the overall allure of meeting available women WILL outweigh for
most men the stereotypical view of the activity. Sex sells, as Eron said,
and, therefore, so does the opportunity to meet available women. The
retention rate in the community of these men may be low, but even if it's
10% there will still be 10% more men than were available before. I think men
in North American don't realize how much women universally love to dance. It
is extremely rare that a woman doesn't like to dance. Changing the
stereotype is quite difficult, but targeted advertising may do just that,
eventually.
>
On the other hand, Randy, for those few men who show up, attracted to ttango
for all the wrong reasons, a few of the women might stop coming. Have you
thought about that?
Astrid
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:13:26 +1100
From: Roger <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Astrid wrote:
>
> On the other hand, Randy, for those few men who show up, attracted to ttango
> for all the wrong reasons, a few of the women might stop coming. Have you
> thought about that?
>
I must say I am in agreement with Astrid on this - I can't see anything
very positive in trawling the locker rooms, bars, dives, etc. (I may
have misquoted the suggested locales here - but that is the image it
conjured) for potential tangueros.
I mentioned the suggestion to my wife, who said "They'd be better
advised to advertise in IT departments, and mathematics departments",
because in her experience those disciplines have yielded better than
average tangueros. (This is not to preclude other disciplines ..
no offence to deep sea divers, et al)
cheers
rde
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:24:40 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: "Roger" <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
yes, Roger is right, tehre are much simpler ways to pick up women than to
learn tango, if a man just wants to do that. It is the computer analysts and
so on who yearn for a human embrace after work, not the motorbike driving
machos who would probably meet girls in the pub down the road over a beer
instead. Been all researched in Germany.
> Astrid wrote:
>>
>> On the other hand, Randy, for those few men who show up, attracted to
>> ttango
>> for all the wrong reasons, a few of the women might stop coming. Have you
>> thought about that?
>>
Roger:
> I must say I am in agreement with Astrid on this - I can't see anything
> very positive in trawling the locker rooms, bars, dives, etc. (I may
> have misquoted the suggested locales here - but that is the image it
> conjured) for potential tangueros.
>
> I mentioned the suggestion to my wife, who said "They'd be better
> advised to advertise in IT departments, and mathematics departments",
> because in her experience those disciplines have yielded better than
> average tangueros.
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:56:10 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender imbalance, tips for female followers
--- Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
... I don't spend my time looking only for women who are
great dancers; ... I dance with women I like. I like the
way they dance, the way they behave, the way they treat
people; I like their personality. I just like them as
people, so I want to dance with them.
---
Sean here.
I have to agree with Keith once again. At least everything
quoted above. I think women who would like to get more
dances would do better to pay attention to the above,
rather than attempting the various strategies that have
been bandied about on the list.
In a milonga with 30 men and 50 women, it could be possible
that each woman would be dancing 60% of the time. But it
never works out that way, or no one would be complaining.
What more likely happens is that half the women dance as
much as they like, and the other half fight for scraps.
Rather than complain, scheme and try to manipulate the men,
I think women who don't get to dance would be a lot better
off figuring out what it would take to join the group of
women who do get to dance. There are many clues in Keith's
post.
I have met many women who complain that men only want to
dance with the young pretty girls, and they waste their
energy at the milonga counting the number of dances those
10% or so girls get. They ignor the other 40% of "regular"
women who get to dance too. Forget about making excuses, or
blaming others. Pay attention to what is really going on,
and you will discover that there are things any woman can
do to get more dances. But each woman has to do this for
herself. It is not a problem that men or organizers can or
should solve.
Sean
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:11:15 +0000
From: rockies@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>, "Roger"
<edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
<010620081211.10414.4780C56300092297000028AE22135753330101009B9D@comcast.net>
-------------- Original message ----------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:35:15 +1100
From: Roger <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: tango-l@mit.edu
rockies@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> Well, in defense of motoryclists, a large percentage are also IT
> people. I happen to be both, and a dancer.
Smiling ,, me too. Just retired from too many decades as a
computer-nerd, and now busy restoring my Norton, which has been put off
for too many decades. Only thing that slows the restoration process is
tango. :)
cheers
rde
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:21:00 +0100
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Interesting. Although motorcycle-gangs never been present in Hungary
(probably because motorbikes necessary to have the prestige were and are
quite expensive, so the majority biker is an intellectual or at least
has his own business) there are a bunch of bike lovers among milongueros
(actually there is also one milonguera...), while the massive majority
of male tango (actually, any kind of partner dance) dancers work in IT
or engineering...
Nevertheless, just because tango is (at the moment) danced by mostly
intellectuals (outside Argentina) it would be somewhat weird to
explicitly exclude all other social classes based on that. In my
experience, non-intellectuals have _much_ greater talent for dancing
than most intellectuals (in the beginning at least), not to mention that
social classes are not what they used to be. If you do something for
intellectuals only, it either requires state funding, it is very
expensive or it is very low profile. Also, being an intellectual and
being social or cultured are not equal for decades now.
With salsa (in CE Europe) you can see a trend. Although the people
visiting the classes (and especially: venues) are much more diluted in
the intellectual sense, it does not stop the salsa scene to be much more
organized and the "core people" to be at least as fun to be with as the
tango dancers. While they also have their problems, it is a lot easier
to initiate a cooperation than among the intellectuals of tango, who
mostly end up disagreeing with each other, or just simply not doing
anything except talking about what they want (others to do).
Cheers,
Aron
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-24-071
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:46:06 +0000
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
> > Astrid wrote:
> >>
> >> On the other hand, Randy, for those few men who show up, attracted to
> >> ttango
> >> for all the wrong reasons, a few of the women might stop coming. Have you
> >> thought about that?
> >>
> Roger:
> > I must say I am in agreement with Astrid on this - I can't see anything
> > very positive in trawling the locker rooms, bars, dives, etc. (I may
> > have misquoted the suggested locales here - but that is the image it
> > conjured) for potential tangueros.
> >
> > I mentioned the suggestion to my wife, who said "They'd be better
> > advised to advertise in IT departments, and mathematics departments",
> > because in her experience those disciplines have yielded better than
> > average tangueros.
I almost feel this thread topic should be changed to "pimp my tango" :)
I think most people and the sort of people that would stick with Tango and enjoy it are those who come because they are searching. From what my teachers tell me their beginners crash course this last weekend was a great success. People come to Tango for various reasons, and I not sure how advertising it in a smiliar vein to "speed dating nights" would be a good thing.
I suppose the main thing is exposure. As Tango productions hit cities you always see a growth in numbers. Maybe more local production groups need to be created and put on year long shows. I think people don't want to dance tango as they have no idea what tango is. Everyone STILL thinks it is the dance with a rose between your teeth!
'Mash
London,UK
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:38 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
'Mash wrote:
> Maybe more local production groups need to be created and put on year
> long shows. I think people don't want to dance tango as they have no
> idea what tango is. Everyone STILL thinks it is the dance with a rose
> between your teeth!
The bigger problem is so many people think tango is what they see in those
shows. /Those/ are the people who have no idea what tango really is.
Shows attract people who like shows. Milongas attract people who like
milongas. Shows make for good (show) business. It's the milongas that make
for a good social tango community.
--
Chris
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:11:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
'Mash wrote:
I think people don't want to dance tango as they have
no idea what tango is. Everyone STILL thinks it is the
dance with a rose between your teeth!
Exactly!
Most people associate tango with ballroom. If they
haven't looked into tango by now, then, it's probably
still in that same category, to them, even after you
meantion it to them and go on about how it is
different.
I remember that I definitely thought it was "that
dance with the rose between your teeth". The only
reason I showed up was because it was the only dance
class that was starting that week. I was recently
seperated and neeeeded to get out there and I found
that dance classes were great because you changed
partners and met women. I saw tango in the newspaper,
said, "Yuk!" to myself and went anyway out of
desperation!
Here's an idea:
Make business cards that have:
On one side: URLs of the local sites with the most
info.
On the other side: URLS to sites that have videos
that show easier tango.
It is my opinion that showing Show Tango isn't going
to attract them ... but, that's just my opinion. I
like the idea of putting links to videos where the man
and woman are close, the dance is SIMPLE and the woman
looks like she is in love. Then, again, that's just
the romantic in me. I don't know what would attract
other guys.
Anyway, maybe, one of the tango societies in a given
city that actually has a healthy enough budget could
spearhead that kind of effort.
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:07:44 +0000
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 09:11:09AM -0800, Tango For Her wrote:
> It is my opinion that showing Show Tango isn't going
> to attract them ... but, that's just my opinion. I
> like the idea of putting links to videos where the man
> and woman are close, the dance is SIMPLE and the woman
> looks like she is in love. Then, again, that's just
> the romantic in me. I don't know what would attract
> other guys.
>
> Anyway, maybe, one of the tango societies in a given
> city that actually has a healthy enough budget could
> spearhead that kind of effort.
Sorry to be more precise I think more Tango public events such as the UK's River Tango at the Thames Festival
https://www.thamesfestival.org/cn/whats_on/index.php?dayid=Saturday&event_idP
Try and get Tango into some outdoor public events as part of the program.
I agree Tango shows may not be the best way of displaying Tango.
'Mash
London,UK
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:47:36 -0500
From: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I iwll be having business cards printed up soon - and I love the idea
of having some featured videos that I can send folks to to see
Argentine tango social dancing - any suggestions...
barbra
Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet?
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks!
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:11 pm
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
'Mash wrote:
I think people don't want to dance tango as they have
no idea what tango is. Everyone STILL thinks it is the
dance with a rose between your teeth!
Exactly!
Most people associate tango with ballroom. If they
haven't looked into tango by now, then, it's probably
still in that same category, to them, even after you
meantion it to them and go on about how it is
different.
I remember that I definitely thought it was "that
dance with the rose between your teeth". The only
reason I showed up was because it was the only dance
class that was starting that week. I was recently
seperated and neeeeded to get out there and I found
that dance classes were great because you changed
partners and met women. I saw tango in the newspaper,
said, "Yuk!" to myself and went anyway out of
desperation!
Here's an idea:
Make business cards that have:
On one side: URLs of the local sites with the most
info.
On the other side: URLS to sites that have videos
that show easier tango.
It is my opinion that showing Show Tango isn't going
to attract them ... but, that's just my opinion. I
like the idea of putting links to videos where the man
and woman are close, the dance is SIMPLE and the woman
looks like she is in love. Then, again, that's just
the romantic in me. I don't know what would attract
other guys.
Anyway, maybe, one of the tango societies in a given
city that actually has a healthy enough budget could
spearhead that kind of effort.
___________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
https://webmail.aol.com
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:01:58 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Another reluctant jumper-in, but I have practical experience as a
volunteer promoter that I think might be helpful.
We have the same problem locally with other dance styles and attracting
men -- perceived impression that dancers are all slick 'Dancing with the
Stars' material. To combat this, we have flyers of people dancing that
feature photographs of real people and not professionals, teachers or
actors. The emphasis is on a mix of ages and races and to show people
wearing casual clothes and enjoying the dance. (We had a specific
mandate to show middle aged people dancing swing, because there is a
perception that it is a dance for 20-somethings.) I can easily envision
doing the same approach with Argentine tango. The message is "normal
people like you enjoy doing this and you can too." (sorry to all the
elitists out there)
If you want to see examples of how we did this here are some URLs to my
flyers:
https://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/shetangoshelindy/2upaasda_022.jpg
https://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/shetangoshelindy/2upaasda_014.jpg
https://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/shetangoshelindy/2upaasda_003.jpg
https://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/shetangoshelindy/2upaasda_027.jpg
https://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/shetangoshelindy/2upaasda_021.jpg
https://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/shetangoshelindy/2upaasda_020.jpg
https://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/shetangoshelindy/2upaasda_012copy.jpg
https://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/shetangoshelindy/2upnew_no1.jpg
These photos were selected from photos from local events and from photos
I found on the web where I contacted the photographer for permission.
In all cases, permission was received by contacting the photographer
(for non-profit use).
Tango For Her wrote:
> 'Mash wrote:
>
> I think people don't want to dance tango as they have
> no idea what tango is. Everyone STILL thinks it is the
> dance with a rose between your teeth!
>
>
> Exactly!
>
> Most people associate tango with ballroom. If they
> haven't looked into tango by now, then, it's probably
> still in that same category, to them, even after you
> meantion it to them and go on about how it is
> different.
>
> I remember that I definitely thought it was "that
> dance with the rose between your teeth". The only
> reason I showed up was because it was the only dance
> class that was starting that week. I was recently
> seperated and neeeeded to get out there and I found
> that dance classes were great because you changed
> partners and met women. I saw tango in the newspaper,
> said, "Yuk!" to myself and went anyway out of
> desperation!
>
> Here's an idea:
>
> Make business cards that have:
>
> On one side: URLs of the local sites with the most
> info.
>
> On the other side: URLS to sites that have videos
> that show easier tango.
>
> It is my opinion that showing Show Tango isn't going
> to attract them ... but, that's just my opinion. I
> like the idea of putting links to videos where the man
> and woman are close, the dance is SIMPLE and the woman
> looks like she is in love. Then, again, that's just
> the romantic in me. I don't know what would attract
> other guys.
>
> Anyway, maybe, one of the tango societies in a given
> city that actually has a healthy enough budget could
> spearhead that kind of effort.
>
>
>
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
protection ? registration ? liability ? enforcement
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:43:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Actually, to be clear:
I agree. Public events are the way to go.
When I say that showing passionate, simple, close
embrace would attract more people than show tango, I
should clarify that when *most* locals put on a public
tango show (usually a couple of dances followed by a
lesson), they aren't really doing really hard show
tango (most people, I said!). So, public events are
great! And, the more the better. Spread the wealth
... find as many events to demonstrate at and have
various advanced dancers (and, perhaps intermediate)
>from your community share the load.
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 11:35:11 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
TFH,
If you think that International Ballroom Tango is associated with ... "the
dance with a rose between your teeth", then you know even less about Ballrooom
Tango than most people know about Argentine Tango. I dance both Ballroom
and Argentine Tango and, I can assure you that, although not even close to
Argentine Tango, ... "the dance with a rose between your teeth" is still
closer to Argentine than Ballroom Tango.
Keith, HK
On Tue Jan 8 1:11 , Tango For Her sent:
>'Mash wrote:
>
>I think people don't want to dance tango as they have
>no idea what tango is. Everyone STILL thinks it is the
>dance with a rose between your teeth!
>
>
>Exactly!
>
>Most people associate tango with ballroom. If they
>haven't looked into tango by now, then, it's probably
>still in that same category, to them, even after you
>meantion it to them and go on about how it is
>different.
>
>I remember that I definitely thought it was "that
>dance with the rose between your teeth".
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:30:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Keith, you misquoted me with the following:
- International Ballroom Tango is associated with ...
"the dance with a rose between your teeth",
I said:
- people have no idea what tango is
- Everyone STILL thinks it [tango] is the dance with a
rose between your teeth
- Most people associate tango with ballroom
So, you want to say:
- you know even less about Ballrooom Tango than most
people know about Argentine Tango.
Better to write something like that in a private
message to me. Okay?
And, even if I DID say that, does it really mean that
I know less about Ballroom Tango than most people know
about Argentine Tango?
Can we avoid slams and expecially slams based on
misquotes, please? I'm just trying to brainstorm like
everyone else and I think I've had some pretty good
ideas!
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