5622  Gricel - Fights at the milongas

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:43:26 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Gricel - Fights at the milongas
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>


Deby says : "There were no fights at Gricel. I have no idea what he was talking about. In my 9 years in the milongas here I have only seen 1 actual fight and that was in Ni?o Bien when a tourist got really drunk and started throwing chairs. Sometimes men purposely bump into each other and fake a disgruntled attitude, They always smile and hug afterwards."


It never ceases to amaze me how people not familiar with our culture can make all sort of misjudgments when visiting Argentina.

My own experience is the same as Debby's, I do not remember ever seeing a fight at a milonga in my entire life.

There are perfect lines of flow in every milonga, you have to recognize them. It is extremely unusual for a couple to disturb another while dancing, unless a lot of tourists are around.

If you are unable to remain in the peripheral line, this is a sign that you are not used to dancing in very crowded floors. YOu try to start dancing in the periphery but soon you find yourself dancing-straggling in the center again and again.

When we interact with each other we do it with much more "physically expressive force" than in other latitudes of the world, some visitors may think that we are arguing when in actuality we are just having an interesting, vivacious conversation.

To joke is one of our national pastimes. We frequently simulate bumping into each other, we do it on purpose, and then give each other dirty looks, all part of a comedy. :))

As to what Trini says, "the standards of dancing have decreased in Buenos Aires", I think that this is a change in perception caused by the foreign dancer being more mature (dancing wise) now than a few years back.

The quality of dancing has always been the same.

Now the same as before, people understand that the milonga is not a place for beginners. Beginners belong in tango lessons and practicas but not in the milongas.

Best regards, Sergio


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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:21:51 -0300
From: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gricel - Fights at the milongas
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> wrote:

> My own experience is the same as Debby's, I do not remember ever seeing a fight at a milonga in my entire life.

I've actually seen one (but only one). It was between a regular
well-known dancer and teacher (whose name will be familiar to many, but
which I shall not mention), and a younger man (also Argentine) who was
attending milongas frequently at that time--a folkloric and tango dancer
(and apparently a teacher)--and it was at Ni?o Bien.

Those who were there will remember it well from this description, since
it is not something one easily forgets precisely because it happens so
infrequently (it was perhaps a couple of years ago). A flurry of punches
were thrown and one of the parties was briefly on the floor (slipped, I
think, rather than being knocked down). No serious physical damage was
done (it was over in seconds as they were quickly separated), but it
created quite a stir and certainly spoiled the mood of the milonga for
the rest of the evening. I wasn't close enough to see what happened and
no one else seemed to have either, but I don't doubt that it got started
by one or the other inadvertently (or intentionally?) creating a
navigation problem (real or imagined) for the other.

> We frequently simulate bumping into each other, we do it on purpose, and then give each other dirty looks, all part of a comedy. :))

Yes, but as often as not, it's a real dirty look. Sometimes it's
justified and sometimes it's not (heck, they are usually BOTH giving
each other dirty looks, and they can't both be right as to whose fault
it was). I've been at the receiving and giving end of these (usually at
the same time)--it's just a little harmless muscle/testosterone flexing
and it's forgotten seconds later.

But I cannot agree entirely with the following of Sergio's statements
(and usually I find myself agreeing with almost *everything* that Sergio
says!), unless they are very much narrowed in their context:

> It is extremely unusual for a couple to disturb another while dancing, unless a lot of tourists are around.

> The quality of dancing has always been the same.
> Now the same as before, people understand that the milonga is not a place for beginners. Beginners belong in tango lessons and practicas but not in the milongas.

Taking them one at a time:

> It is extremely unusual for a couple to disturb another while dancing, unless a lot of tourists are around.

Taken literally, I agree. But it implies that it's ONLY the tourists
causing this. You just have to go to La Viruta to realize that it is
not. There are a lot of young beginning Argentine dancers there, and
many of them seem to be oblivious to the presence of anyone else on the
dance floor. But this is more related to the second point below (and
there are a lot of tourists around at La Viruta, so technically it's
still a true statement, but it's not just the tourists causing it).

> The quality of dancing has always been the same.
> Now the same as before, people understand that the milonga is not a place for beginners. Beginners belong in tango lessons and practicas but not in the milongas.

Unfortunately, this is no longer true, unless you are restricting your
observation to some traditional milongas.

There are two reasons that this has eroded:

1. Yes, the presence of tourists. First of all, there may be people who
are intermediate or even advanced in their home community but are
beginners in Buenos Aires milongas though they haven't realized it (at
least as far as navigation skills are concerned). Secondly, it is an
unreasonable expectation that a tango enthusiast who has saved his
vacation time and money to make a for-him special trip to Buenos Aires
is going to accept the proposition that he should stay away from the
"mythical milongas of Shangri-la a.k.a. Buenos Aires" that he has
specially come for because he has only reached pr?ctica eligibility in
his skills. Maybe it should be that way, but it's not going to happen
even if the person in question accepts the proposition (that milongas
are just for those who already know how to dance well at milongas). The
best one can hope for is increased sensitivity to the importance of
floorcraft and the more crowded conditions.

2. The reduced importance amongst younger Argentines of the Milonga
traditions, especially those that to them seem arbitrary and/or
restrictive. One young Argentine woman I met at TangoCool pr?ctica a
couple of years ago (a regular and pretty good dancer) said that she
hates "all that nonsense of cabeceo and stuff ... it's so much better
just to be direct and ask someone to dance!" (loose translation). (I
disagree with her, but that's not the point.) Another example: All my
non-Tango dancing Argentine friends have heard about La Viruta (and it
seems about no other milonga, except possibly Confiteria Ideal). It
seems to be well known in Buenos Aires in non-Tango circles. Many
Argentines especially the younger ones who want to "try out" Tango will
as often as not go to La Viruta to take their inexpensive beginners'
class with teachers and other students in or close to their age group,
and stay for the Milonga. The Milonga may be included in the price, they
have a limited budget, and they're with their friends and have decided
to make a night out of it at La Viruta. Who's going to tell them that
well, on weekend nights La Viruta is really a Milonga and they should
come back on Wednesday nights (or whatever is pr?ctica night) and find
some other way to entertain themselves? The teachers and organizers at
La Viruta will not--they WANT people to stay and enjoy themselves and
want to come back (and spend money on drinks and food).

Don't get me wrong: I lament the dying of many of these traditions and
support those who wish to uphold them (and occasionally try to do so
myself, though I've long since ceased to be dogmatic about it), but it's
an uphill battle at best and, though I hate to say it, perhaps a losing one.

And although La Viruta is perhaps an extreme in some sense, if you
compare it with say, Lo de Celia at the other end of the spectrum (not
the most traditional of the traditional milongas either, but one whose
name is perhaps more familiar to those on this list), there are still
any number of milongas in between these two points in the spectrum that
exhibit the same "problems" to correspondingly lesser or greater degrees.

Shahrukh