4723  On group classes ...

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:45:46 -0500 (EST)
From: tango@bostonphotographs.com
Subject: [Tango-L] On group classes ...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<46793.206.210.27.33.1169833546.squirrel@webmail.netfirms.com>

I would like to hear what others have to say about this topic. I would
appreciate any comments you may have. I am hoping that this info would
ultimately reach teachers and maybe the group classes would improve.

Lately I've been taking less and less group classes because I'm getting
increasingly frustrated with the experiences I'm having in the class. Here
are my sources of frustration.

1) skill level

it seems to me everyone is grossly overestimating their level. I've
attended intermediate classes where followers did not have BASIC following
skills (like waiting for the lead, having the ability to maintain their
own axis while pivoting, having a presence, being able to disassociate (or
even knowing they are supposed to) their upper and lower body, being able
to walk in a straight line, etc). I'm sure leaders sucked in equal amount,
I just didn't have any experience dancing with them.
It seems like everyone judges their skill level by how many years they've
been dancing. In my opinion, that's just as accurate as judging one's
skill level by the amount of money they paid for their shoes.

As a result of wildly different skill set, either the teacher is lowering
the difficulty of the class to the lower common denominator which will
make it boring, or they don't and I don't have anyone to practice with and
it's frustrating.

2) gender imbalance
for whatever reason nearly all the classes I've even attended are "leader
heavy". Spending half the time "practicing" a figure with an imaginary
partner is too frustrating for me.

3) the switching partners nightmare

I wholeheartedly agree that people should dance with as many people they
can to refine their leading/following skills, but the process of
"switching partners" is always a bloody mess. There is little I hate more
in tango classes then that moment where everyone is looking around
confused trying to figure out who's changing and who's not, trying to
figure out if they are "desperate" enough to RUN to a decent
follower/leader or risk doing another round of dancing with an imaginary
partner or worst, "dancing" with someone lacking basic skills.

Now here are some suggestions on how to address some of these issues :

1) Registration required with payment in advance

The teacher should accept registrations in such a way that the
leader/follower ratio is always 1/1. Asking for payment in advance would
increase the chance the attendance is better. Also, it will allow the
teacher to build on elements taught in prior classes.

2) Pre-vetting students.

The teacher should not accept students who's level is not at the level
required for the class. Period. They should rather encourage those to
attend a lower level class if available. They should judge the people's
level by dancing with them, not by how many years have passed since their
first lesson.

3) Have a system for changing partners.

There was ONLY class I've ever attended that had a decent system of
changing partners. They asked all the couples that are not switching to go
in a corner. They ask all the others to partner up and form a circle. Then
they asked the leaders to memorize that spot in the room where they were
standing. When "changing" partners was requested, all couples that were
not switching were to go to their corner, all leaders where to take their
current follower to their "spot" and then the followers would rotate one
to the right. This way, everyone danced with everyone and there was never
that awkward moment of trying to figure out where do you go.

4) DO ask people to change partners but not every 2 minutes and more often
then every 15 minutes.

5) Less lecturing and more practice time

It seems like most teachers like to hear themselves talk, so in a lot of
cases I spend up to 60% of the class time listening to the same thing 5
times. Say what you have to say succinctly, have people start working on
it and then go individually and address the issues they have.

6) Dealing with unequal skill level

Do not slow down the class if a few people cannot keep up, move along, we
ALL paid for the class, I have no reason to subsidize the training of the
few that can't hack it. Spend equal time with all the students, just
because some can do better then most doesn't mean that they don't need
input. If they were perfect they wouldn't attend the class.

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:54 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] On group classes ...
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

tango@bostonphotographs.com wrote:

> It seems like everyone judges their skill level by how many years
> they've been dancing.

Sure, but dancers have no choice if they want to select classes from
teachers who define the lesson level on that basis. Most class teachers do
define level by how many years you've been dancing (and most of the rest
by how many steps you've learnt!).

> that's just as accurate as judging one's skill level by the amount of
> money they paid for their shoes.

Agreed. Often girls in their first month or so are of a higher standard
than those that have danced/classed for many years. It's tragic to see
them demoralized by classes that have them trying to follow leaders who
despite being 'advanced' by years, still haven't got the basics.

> As a result of wildly different skill set, either the teacher is
> lowering the difficulty of the class to the lower common denominator

Professional class teachers are in a situation where they have a real
problem reconciling on the one hand being truthful to students about their
standard of dancing and on the other filling the classes.

I'm sure that many teachers would love to be free to say what they know to
be the truth: past beginner, the longer you've been doing classes, the
lower on average is your standard of dancing.

Chris

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:14:03 -0600
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] On group classes ...
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340701261614m2870333ewc2703d49e153f65@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/26/07, tango@bostonphotographs.com <tango@bostonphotographs.com > wrote:

> Lately I've been taking less and less group classes because I'm getting
> increasingly frustrated with the experiences I'm having in the class. Here
> are my sources of frustration.
>
> 1) skill level
>
> it seems to me everyone is grossly overestimating their level.

> As a result of wildly different skill set, either the teacher is lowering
> the difficulty of the class to the lower common denominator which will
> make it boring, or they don't and I don't have anyone to practice with and
> it's frustrating.

> 2) gender imbalance
> for whatever reason nearly all the classes I've even attended are "leader
> heavy".

> 3) the switching partners nightmare
>
> I wholeheartedly agree that people should dance with as many people they
> can to refine their leading/following skills, but ...

> Now here are some suggestions on how to address some of these issues :
>
> 1) Registration required with payment in advance
>
> The teacher should accept registrations in such a way that the
> leader/follower ratio is always 1/1. Asking for payment in advance would
> increase the chance the attendance is better. Also, it will allow the
> teacher to build on elements taught in prior classes.

As tango instructors, we COULD run our tango classes like dance
academies and require advance enrollment to balance gender ratio. It
would be nice if it worked that way. It assumes demand is high and
space is limited. More likely, we are trying to recruit as many
people as possible to fill our classes and build our communities.

Most of us are teaching a social dance for recreation. People are
relaxed about it; it's a diversion from the 9-to-5 and they don't want
restrictions. I don't think that's bad. We want tango to be fun. If we
get too strict about it, we won't have students, and no one will have
fun.

On the other hand, I think this could be feasible for advanced
classes. I've tried it with some workshops given by visiting
instructors but people still show up at class time anyway without
pre-registering. I don't want to turn someone away who cares enough to
to learn to pay xx$ for a class or workshop. It hasn't ever destroyed
gender ratio.

The instructor might also examine why the classes have a biased gender
ratio. Are women not attending because all the focus is on the
leader's role? As instructors we tend to place blame on leaders for
mistakes, but this can create a tango culture where women are
overconfident and men lack confidence, which leads to bad partnership
in general. Both leader and follower are responsible for a good tango.

> 2) Pre-vetting students.
>
> The teacher should not accept students who's level is not at the level
> required for the class. Period. They should rather encourage those to
> attend a lower level class if available. They should judge the people's
> level by dancing with them, not by how many years have passed since their
> first lesson.

We COULD have a series of examinations and grant diplomas that are a
pre-requisite for attending the next higher level class.

Actually, I do recommend students take a lower level class if that is
appropriate. Or sometimes I invite them to attend a lower level class
while they take the higher level class.

If a class focuses on technique rather than buliding a rich catalogue
of executable figures, even students taking a class at an
inappropriately high level will benefit.

There are always surprises. Students do not learn at a constant rate.

Instructors could have advanced classes by invitation only. At that
level, the instructor knows who is ready for the material. At lower
levels, there are always surprises (in both directions).

> 3) Have a system for changing partners.

If you form a line of dance and have students dance in a line-of-dance
(instead of executing figures 'wherever') and teach them not to pass
each other (contrary to standard milonga protocol), you could dance
for a complete song and then rotate to the next partner and then every
leader will dance with every follower at least once.

> 4) DO ask people to change partners but not every 2 minutes and more often
> then every 15 minutes.

How about every 2:30 - 3:30, i.e., the length of a song? Besides
giving couples practice at dancing a whole song, It spreads the
ability differences around more evenly and gives people a chance to
construct a dance and navigate (assuming a line-of-dance is enforced).
The length of a tanda (about 8-12 minutes) is probably too long. It
could get people stuck with poor partner matches.

> 5) Less lecturing and more practice time
>
> It seems like most teachers like to hear themselves talk, so in a lot of
> cases I spend up to 60% of the class time listening to the same thing 5
> times. Say what you have to say succinctly, have people start working on
> it and then go individually and address the issues they have.

Yes, practice is good. Instructors need to be precise and concise in
their communication. However, instructors DO need to communicate.

> 6) Dealing with unequal skill level
>
> Do not slow down the class if a few people cannot keep up, move along, we
> ALL paid for the class, I have no reason to subsidize the training of the
> few that can't hack it. Spend equal time with all the students, just
> because some can do better then most doesn't mean that they don't need
> input. If they were perfect they wouldn't attend the class.

Yes, don't 'dumb down' the class to the lowest level. However, don't
teach at a level more advanced than most people can learn. I think
it's worthwhile to teach mostly to the middle half of the class. They
are ones who will benefit most.

There is a common ground - technique. Everyone can improve technique.
Also musicality. There are some people who can't remember steps who
have great musicality. (There are an even larger number of step mavins
who lack musicality.)

Be kind. You CAN dance 2:30 with just about anyone. If you let
students dance instead of talking, you have time to pull aside
students with more problems and address them.

Instructors should also dance with students during the class. They can
address some issues while dancing. These should be technique issues
rather than 'where to put you foot next' issues. 'Where to put your
foot next' can be addressed out of the line-of-dance.

>>From experience, I find that those who complain the most are those who

most overestimate their ability. Humility is good ... even for
instructors. Learning tango is a lifelong experience.

Ron
Urbana IL

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:28:14 -0600
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] On group classes ...
To: tl2@chrisjj.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340701261628o2c7f45e0q6335b4eafd1d9dca@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:54 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK
<tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:

> I'm sure that many teachers would love to be free to say what they know to
> be the truth: past beginner, the longer you've been doing classes, the
> lower on average is your standard of dancing.
>
> Chris

In my experience, I've found the opposite correlation. It is true that
in the beginning (first 6 months or so, those who stop taking classes
tend to be better, on average, than those who do). However, many
people who continue to take classes progress more slowly and
eventually surpass the early quitters.

Many of the early quitters feel they have nothing more to learn. They
tend to be overconfident, overestimating their ability. If something
goes wrong, they blame others. They think they know a lot and often
have deaf ears to suggestions for improvement.

If you have a large number of these overconfident early quitters in
your community, they can set a low standard for development in the
community, particularly if they are popular individuals. If
like-minded early quitters band together, they can really sink dance
quality in a community.

Ron

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:43:48 -0500
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] On group classes ...
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>

I add some new elements.

Giving and taking feedback

Sometimes classes turn into a test of wills. "You lead that wrong." "You're not following." This has NOTHING to do with skill level. This has do with what it means to be a PARTNER. PARTners are PART of the problem and PART of the solution. It's rarely one sided. If a man sees feedback as an attack on his manhood, game over!! But then, it depends on how it's explained. The same goes for women. Is the man attacking or helping? This raises an important question about the value of practicas. Is it really a practica or just a milonga? I just stopped going to one practica because it's really a milonga. People are content with their level of dancing. Telling them anything only upsets them. I've seen it happen.

Some people DON'T want to hear that they could do something better that would improve their dancing. Some people are content with their level of dancing. It's just that their level of dancing is not good enough for the class

The mystique of figures

Some people want to take a class on volcaldas and colgadas (I hope I spelled them right. I can't count on spell check.) because they are the latest craze. A friend and I took a private with Valeria Solomonoff to learn them. BEFORE she would teach me, she wanted to see me lead a calesita because she wanted to make sure I could deal with pulling a woman off her axis. I've never teachers test the skill level of students.

The mystique of teachers

Some people will follow certain teachers to the end of the earth, regardless of what they're teaching. Their skill level has NOTHING to do with it.

This class is not for you
Only ONCE did I see a teacher tell the students his expectations. He lead the figure combination and said "You have to know how to lead and follow back ochos. This is an intermediate class. You're expected to know this because I'm not taking time to teach this." His message was LOST on a number of people. One woman told me "I've been dancing for six months." No wonder she had problems, which became my fault.

Determining skill level
This is usually based on the community they live. Some people might be in a shock when they go a festival or out of town and see dancers dancing differently-- or better.


Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Enjoying Spring (Well, 56 degrees is close enough)
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango