5235 Growing up an excellent man-dancer. How?
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:25:57 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Growing up an excellent man-dancer. How?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Deby:
"Take 100 dancers. Of that 100 65 are women
and 35 are men. So you have 35 men to dance with 65 women. Of the 65
women, maybe 15 are excellent dancers. Of the 35 men maybe 5 are
excellent. So there are 5 men for 15 women. Then there are the rest of
the dancers. Those 5 men know they are the best dancers. Those 5 men..."
Wonderful Deby !
Only I'd like to add that a number of excellent dancers between woman varies
depending on who they are dancing with. I'll explain.
I am sure if you take one of the 60 men ( which are not excellent) - for
them, yes, 15 good women only.
But if you take the rest 5 - more. They would say 50 women are good.
That is the way it is. Great man dancer is able to reveal hidden talents of
other women besides those 15 "excellent" ones. And they might even say that
some of those 15 are not that excellent like others think...
Shortly, every man dancer has his own understanding of who is the excellent
one. And the numbers do not match. So, overall, taking in account opinions
of all these 5 excellent leaders, there will be say 30 excellent women out
of 65.
What is the conclusion? The ratio of excellent women to excellent men is
even larger than 15/5. It is 30/5.
Now the main point of my message: ( and that is corresponding to the
previous topic - how to retain - (not anyone, but excellent!) beginners ).
HOW TO GROW UP AN EXCELLENT MAN-DANCER.
Many men as well as women stop progressing, taking classes, improving. Some
of them judge their talents more objectively, most - not.
I do believe that is it possible to become a great tango dancer, if one is
diligent enough, but they should have motivation. They should have a guiding
star in front of them - which is going to say them - you are not there yet !
And here what is your goal..
As for those 30.. How to let them know: You are not one of 5 ! Women are
dancing with you only because, there is not enough excellent men. Yet. Time
changes, and more people come to tango. And many men do not even suspect
that it is possible to dance much better than they do. Way better. There are
6 major styles of tango. 4 styles of milonga. And Tango vals is not a vals
if one does not make rotating turns and floating feelings... Do you know at
least half of this?
May be they understand it - they are not one of 5, but tango is not a
competition, it is a social event, when friendship count A LOT. We come to
"socialize" to our tango parties. But still, if it is possible to improve,
why not to make this gift for your beloved one? For your dancing friends?
Some of whom regularly dance with those 5 Kings of the dance? Men.... Learn
tango !
So, my question is how to bring up those excellent tango dancers:
How to retain promising beginners, how to provide a guidance of great
dancing, how to motivate men not to stop in the middle. What workshops are
possible to train great man-dancers?
Igor Polk
ipolk@virtuar.com
www.virtuar.com/tango/
www.jcctango.org
San Francisco
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:44:32 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Growing up an excellent man-dancer. How?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Igor,
I really think it would be prudent to wait until you've made your first trip to
BsAs before correcting Deby on the actual situation there.
Keith, HK
On Thu Oct 11 2:25 , "Igor Polk" sent:
>Deby:
>
>"Take 100 dancers. Of that 100 65 are women
>and 35 are men. So you have 35 men to dance with 65 women. Of the 65
>women, maybe 15 are excellent dancers. Of the 35 men maybe 5 are
>excellent. So there are 5 men for 15 women. Then there are the rest of
>the dancers. Those 5 men know they are the best dancers. Those 5 men..."
>
>
>Wonderful Deby !
>
>Only I'd like to add that a number of excellent dancers between woman varies
>depending on who they are dancing with. I'll explain.
>
>I am sure if you take one of the 60 men ( which are not excellent) - for
>them, yes, 15 good women only.
>But if you take the rest 5 - more. They would say 50 women are good.
>
>That is the way it is. Great man dancer is able to reveal hidden talents of
>other women besides those 15 "excellent" ones. And they might even say that
>some of those 15 are not that excellent like others think...
>
>Shortly, every man dancer has his own understanding of who is the excellent
>one. And the numbers do not match. So, overall, taking in account opinions
>of all these 5 excellent leaders, there will be say 30 excellent women out
>of 65.
>
>What is the conclusion? The ratio of excellent women to excellent men is
>even larger than 15/5. It is 30/5.
>
>Now the main point of my message: ( and that is corresponding to the
>previous topic - how to retain - (not anyone, but excellent!) beginners ).
>
>HOW TO GROW UP AN EXCELLENT MAN-DANCER.
>
>Many men as well as women stop progressing, taking classes, improving. Some
>of them judge their talents more objectively, most - not.
>
>I do believe that is it possible to become a great tango dancer, if one is
>diligent enough, but they should have motivation. They should have a guiding
>star in front of them - which is going to say them - you are not there yet !
>And here what is your goal..
>
>As for those 30.. How to let them know: You are not one of 5 ! Women are
>dancing with you only because, there is not enough excellent men. Yet. Time
>changes, and more people come to tango. And many men do not even suspect
>that it is possible to dance much better than they do. Way better. There are
>6 major styles of tango. 4 styles of milonga. And Tango vals is not a vals
>if one does not make rotating turns and floating feelings... Do you know at
>least half of this?
>
>May be they understand it - they are not one of 5, but tango is not a
>competition, it is a social event, when friendship count A LOT. We come to
>"socialize" to our tango parties. But still, if it is possible to improve,
>why not to make this gift for your beloved one? For your dancing friends?
>Some of whom regularly dance with those 5 Kings of the dance? Men.... Learn
>tango !
>
>
>So, my question is how to bring up those excellent tango dancers:
>
>How to retain promising beginners, how to provide a guidance of great
>dancing, how to motivate men not to stop in the middle. What workshops are
>possible to train great man-dancers?
>
>
>
>Igor Polk
>ipolk@virtuar.com
>www.virtuar.com/tango/
>www.jcctango.org
>San Francisco
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:14:30 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Growing up an excellent man-dancer. How?
To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340710101214l7cad4b98m3c930e8dc7812122@mail.gmail.com>
On 10/10/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
>
> So, my question is how to bring up those excellent tango dancers:
>
> How to retain promising beginners, how to provide a guidance of great
> dancing, how to motivate men not to stop in the middle. What workshops are
> possible to train great man-dancers?
>
>
The situtation Deby is talking about is Buenos Aires. The men she is talking
about are probably milongueros in the 60s or older. They have been dancing
for decades, perhaps as long as 40 or 50 years. It would be safe to say
most, if not all of them, did not take tango classes. They grew up enveloped
in tango, its music, its customs. They learned by observation and by
practice, the tango they found inside themselves developed, individual yet
always in harmony with the environment and culture in which tango lived.
There has been some comment about the quality of men dancing in the US. Yes,
there are quite a few men who have acquired a great deal of skill in
excecuting a wide variety of tango steps, leading women to follow a wide
variety of tango steps, mostly on an open dance floor. However, put them on
the crowded dance floors in Buenos Aires milongas and even the best American
tangueros cannot compare to the best Argentine milongueros. How can one
expect them to be as good? Very few men in the US have been dancing more
than 10 years, although some who have been dancing less than 5 are hired as
experts to teach at tango festivals.
What I see as missing in American tangueros (myself included) that is
present in Argentine milongueros is a way of interpreting the music which
such precision, with such subtlety, with such passion (and that doesn't even
do it justice) that only someone who has tango music circulating in their
blood, beating with their heart, breathing with their lungs, and riding the
waves of their nerves and muscles can do. It is so obviously different and
it is so difficult to emulate.
So, while tango classes taken from fellow countrymen who have mastered the
dance in 5 years may help you in setting you on your journey of producing a
good male tango dancers (provided it doesn't send you up some irrelevant
alley or off some tango-destructive cliff), in order to produce a better
American tanguero, you need to send him to Buenos Aires to observe the best
male dancers. He needs to dance a lot on crowded milonga floors. Any
progress will take some time. It will take repeated visits. Even then, the
best will still be apparent only as works-in-progress. It has taken a
lifetime to produce these milongueros.
In the meantime, be patient and enjoy the journey. Tango is a difficult
dance. It takes a lifetime to get good, 2 lifetimes to master.
Ron
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:38:44 +1000
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Growing up an excellent man-dancer. How?
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0151416AB2@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Ron, you have put it so well. I know exactly the sort of 5 great male dancers Deby is talking about. Really they don't exist anywhere else in the world other than BsAs. When I first got to BsAs and was desperate to get dances I was really furious that some women only seemed to want to dance with these old guys. After a few milongas and a few dances with experienced followers (20 years plus) I started to realise that this is a really silly attitude to have.
Just to take one example, the way these followers would embrace you is so totally different to anything else I had experienced in tango I was amazed. There is such a concentrated seriousness and tenderness in the simple embrace, a beautiful thing and you have not even taken a step! So I imagine for followers it is the same deal except ten times more so when they dance with one of these guys who has been dancing for decades. Of course, these 'milongueros' are not all great. I also saw and experienced some truly appallingly bad dancing there as well from experienced Argentinians :-).
So I think visiting BsAs is really important for a leader's development, but there are also great leaders and teachers outside of BsAs. Really most of the things that I observed there were the same things my teachers had been going on about for the last three years back in Australia like lead with the chest, stay connected, listen to the music. It just makes a difference to see how far it can really be taken and what beautiful results you can get when you do actually nail it.
I was talking to one of these old guys lamenting the fact I had so much to learn and he looked at me with a wry smile and said, yes but you are young (hehe I love being called that at my age) and have years to perfect your dance. So I guess the bottom line for a middle order leader like me is that there might be a long hard road ahead but provided we concentrate on the things that are really important, then unlike many other things in life we will just get better with age :-). I find that a very encouraging thought.
Victor Bennetts
-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Tango Society of Central Illinois
Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2007 5:15 AM
To: Igor Polk
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Growing up an excellent man-dancer. How?
On 10/10/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
>
> So, my question is how to bring up those excellent tango dancers:
>
> How to retain promising beginners, how to provide a guidance of great
> dancing, how to motivate men not to stop in the middle. What workshops are
> possible to train great man-dancers?
>
>
The situtation Deby is talking about is Buenos Aires. The men she is talking
about are probably milongueros in the 60s or older. They have been dancing
for decades, perhaps as long as 40 or 50 years. It would be safe to say
most, if not all of them, did not take tango classes. They grew up enveloped
in tango, its music, its customs. They learned by observation and by
practice, the tango they found inside themselves developed, individual yet
always in harmony with the environment and culture in which tango lived.
There has been some comment about the quality of men dancing in the US. Yes,
there are quite a few men who have acquired a great deal of skill in
excecuting a wide variety of tango steps, leading women to follow a wide
variety of tango steps, mostly on an open dance floor. However, put them on
the crowded dance floors in Buenos Aires milongas and even the best American
tangueros cannot compare to the best Argentine milongueros. How can one
expect them to be as good? Very few men in the US have been dancing more
than 10 years, although some who have been dancing less than 5 are hired as
experts to teach at tango festivals.
What I see as missing in American tangueros (myself included) that is
present in Argentine milongueros is a way of interpreting the music which
such precision, with such subtlety, with such passion (and that doesn't even
do it justice) that only someone who has tango music circulating in their
blood, beating with their heart, breathing with their lungs, and riding the
waves of their nerves and muscles can do. It is so obviously different and
it is so difficult to emulate.
So, while tango classes taken from fellow countrymen who have mastered the
dance in 5 years may help you in setting you on your journey of producing a
good male tango dancers (provided it doesn't send you up some irrelevant
alley or off some tango-destructive cliff), in order to produce a better
American tanguero, you need to send him to Buenos Aires to observe the best
male dancers. He needs to dance a lot on crowded milonga floors. Any
progress will take some time. It will take repeated visits. Even then, the
best will still be apparent only as works-in-progress. It has taken a
lifetime to produce these milongueros.
In the meantime, be patient and enjoy the journey. Tango is a difficult
dance. It takes a lifetime to get good, 2 lifetimes to master.
Ron
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:26:56 -0600
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] FW: Growing up an excellent man-dancer. How?
Let's see bringing up an excellent tango dancer.
Ok;
One Lead. Check.
One lit candle on an alter, (stand in front of). Check.
Seal of Salomon on chest (drawn with a sharpie). Check.
On glyph drawn on floor with pastel chock (can only receive pattern of glyph
after eating garlic for a week and not having any Follow complain). Check.
Sachet (made from a piece of a follows dress). Fill with dragons blood, rose
pedals, iron filings, lavender, shoe leather clippings, shreds from a
favorite tango song, and some dried red wine. Check
One large, heavy, metal, ostentatious crown. Check.
Runes drawn on each fore arm (again with a sharpie). Check.
One lit candle in each hand (each candle of opposing colors). Check.
Say the ancient incantation "Buena Mate!! Buena Milonga!!! Muy Linda
Follow!!!!"
And Abrahadabra!
You will have an excellent tango dancer.
Zorrito
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:26 PM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] Growing up an excellent man-dancer. How?
Deby:
"Take 100 dancers. Of that 100 65 are women
and 35 are men. So you have 35 men to dance with 65 women. Of the 65
women, maybe 15 are excellent dancers. Of the 35 men maybe 5 are
excellent. So there are 5 men for 15 women. Then there are the rest of
the dancers. Those 5 men know they are the best dancers. Those 5 men..."
Wonderful Deby !
Only I'd like to add that a number of excellent dancers between woman varies
depending on who they are dancing with. I'll explain.
I am sure if you take one of the 60 men ( which are not excellent) - for
them, yes, 15 good women only.
But if you take the rest 5 - more. They would say 50 women are good.
That is the way it is. Great man dancer is able to reveal hidden talents of
other women besides those 15 "excellent" ones. And they might even say that
some of those 15 are not that excellent like others think...
Shortly, every man dancer has his own understanding of who is the excellent
one. And the numbers do not match. So, overall, taking in account opinions
of all these 5 excellent leaders, there will be say 30 excellent women out
of 65.
What is the conclusion? The ratio of excellent women to excellent men is
even larger than 15/5. It is 30/5.
Now the main point of my message: ( and that is corresponding to the
previous topic - how to retain - (not anyone, but excellent!) beginners ).
HOW TO GROW UP AN EXCELLENT MAN-DANCER.
Many men as well as women stop progressing, taking classes, improving. Some
of them judge their talents more objectively, most - not.
I do believe that is it possible to become a great tango dancer, if one is
diligent enough, but they should have motivation. They should have a guiding
star in front of them - which is going to say them - you are not there yet !
And here what is your goal..
As for those 30.. How to let them know: You are not one of 5 ! Women are
dancing with you only because, there is not enough excellent men. Yet. Time
changes, and more people come to tango. And many men do not even suspect
that it is possible to dance much better than they do. Way better. There are
6 major styles of tango. 4 styles of milonga. And Tango vals is not a vals
if one does not make rotating turns and floating feelings... Do you know at
least half of this?
May be they understand it - they are not one of 5, but tango is not a
competition, it is a social event, when friendship count A LOT. We come to
"socialize" to our tango parties. But still, if it is possible to improve,
why not to make this gift for your beloved one? For your dancing friends?
Some of whom regularly dance with those 5 Kings of the dance? Men.... Learn
tango !
So, my question is how to bring up those excellent tango dancers:
How to retain promising beginners, how to provide a guidance of great
dancing, how to motivate men not to stop in the middle. What workshops are
possible to train great man-dancers?
Igor Polk
ipolk@virtuar.com
www.virtuar.com/tango/
www.jcctango.org
San Francisco
