4816 Heel-first versus Toe-first
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:52:33 -0600
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
I am consistently amazed by the detail of technical analysis and
subsequent controversy on this list, not to mention fundamentalism in
every way that it can possibly be applied to tango.
For the record, our experience of over 20 years in tango, is exactly the
same as Sergio's, which is no coincidence as the list of our teachers is
practically identical to those he mentioned, with the addition of Fino
Ribera and Orlando Paiva and several brilliant younger women teachers.
From an ascetic point of view, and a physical practical point of view,
stepping on the ball of the foot first not only looks better, results in
longer steps, helps avoid stepping on the partner's toes, and most
specifically makes it possible to pivot at any moment to execute a turn
or simply move around a crowded floor. Stepping heel-first seems to work
for small non-turning steps (strict s.miller "milonguero" style) and
also in the huge strides of nuevo exhibition dancing, when floorcraft is
not an issue. Or in plain walking, although it doesn't look so good.
Stability is a function of posture and balance. Great posture is not
only about looking good, but is necessary for leading and following and
equilibrium. Plus as a person grows older, as we all will with any luck,
posture and balance become more and more crucial in everyday life (I'm 73).
As for worrying about the effect on various muscles, that mystifies me.
Everything we do uses, stresses, stretches, affects any number of
muscles, and that's a good thing, yes?? Muscles are there to be used.
>Specifically,
>developing my core muscles to hold up my chest and ribcage
>causes my internal obliques to lift the hip of my free leg
>higher than the hip of my standing leg. Although the hip
>of my free leg drops as I extend, my toe is still the part
>that touches down first without excess muscle. Forcing my
>heel down first uses more muscle.
>
>To step forward heel-first comfortably requires me to be
>more on the heel of my standing leg or to drop the hip of
>my free leg. But there is only so much I can drop my hip
>without breaking my axis.
>
Correct posture presupposes a strong core which makes it possible to
move without dropping one's hip.
Only confusion results from taking as gospel everything any given
teacher says -- how about filtering opinions through common sense and
personal experience?. How about keeping one's eyes and mind open? We
have been going to milongas in Argentina since 1987; a sea change
happened in 1994 when Susana Miller began teaching and promoting
"milonguero style". When we were in Bs As recently, after a 6-year
hiatus, we saw as expected that almost all dancers were doing close
embrace, especially in the downtown milongas. We saw some Villa Urquiza
salon style, which is what we do (bodies very close, moving out a bit to
allow for turns) happening when floors weren't so crowded early or very
late in the evening and at Sunderland. In the milongas in the center
most frequented by tourists there was a mix of very close embrace (90+
%) and a little rather bad exhibition tango by visitors. My
favorites? Sunderland and Lo de Celia. My not-favorite? Ideal. In the
best milongas the embrace and style are close but not standardized,
individuality happens, fundamentalism is absent.
Abrazos from Puerto Vallarta,
Barbara
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>Hi Timmy. Your way of choosing toe-first or heel-first
>based on how fast you wish to travel is part of the
>picture, and I think is correct for some degree. But I
>think other facets have started to emerge for me just from
>this difference in stepping.
>
>And Sergio touches on something that I have long noticed -
>that Argentines are far more concerned about looking
>elegant than Americans. Their culture at milongas promotes
>this, as well. As he also mentions, Susana's style also
>sacrifices elegance for stability, which I think is useful
>for beginners.
>
>
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:20:13 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
It's good to hear from you again, Barbara.
Stage or Social? Beginners, Intermediates or Advanced? Trained
dancers or normal people? This is an issue of correct context, not an
issue of some intrinsic truth.
It is my view that if you see tango as a street dance, walking should
be a little more natural, whereas if you see tango as a stage
performance, then details of appearance become more important. Most
(95%) of my students are normal people who are NEVER going to dance
on stage, and I'm primarily concerned with getting them up and
dancing in a social context.
So many of the teachers in Sergio's list are fundamentally
performance dancers, are well-trained if not professional dancers.
They primarily instruct in stage dancing, even if their students are
often social dancers. I know that the immediate response will be that
they also dance socially.... (True, but does this prove they aren't
fundamentally stage dancers?) (I hasten to add, there is nothing
wrong with stage dancing. )
To get a better idea of how social dancers move, maybe we should look
at some videos of actual social dancing. Watch what they do instead
of what they say. Barbara suggests that as well.
On Mar 13, 2007, at 11:52 AM, Barbara Garvey wrote:
> ... From an ascetic point of view, and a physical practical point
> of view,
> stepping on the ball of the foot first not only looks better,
> results in
> longer steps, helps avoid stepping on the partner's toes, and most
> specifically makes it possible to pivot at any moment to execute a
> turn
> or simply move around a crowded floor. Stepping heel-first seems to
> work
> for small non-turning steps (strict s.miller "milonguero" style) and
> also in the huge strides of nuevo exhibition dancing, when
> floorcraft is
> not an issue. Or in plain walking, although it doesn't look so good.
I disagree with the comment that toe-first results in longer strides.
Nor does it avoid stepping on her foot.
Quite the opposite, actually. If the leader's foot gets out in front
of his body, then his partner shortens her stride and she gets
stepped on (because she is measuring her stride from his body). The
real issue is whether the leader's hips (and body) are carried
forward over the ball of the foot. This is possible with landing on
the balls, but it is a WHOLE lot easier using the heel-ball technique.
This gets back to Trini's comment, that foot placement isn't the main
issue. Instead, we want movements or strides that make the body move
in a natural, balanced manner.
INSTRUCTIONAL METHODOLOGY AND CONSEQUENCES
I submit that striding forward heel-ball is far, far easier and
solves more problems (like balance) for beginner leaders. I get
beginner and intermediate leaders who have been instructed to dance
ball-first, and they have weird, mincing steps, they don't feel the
ground solidly, they take uncertain, tentative strides. If I ask them
to stand upright, walk normally, land with your hips over your balls,
don't lead with the toes, then I can (sometimes) succeed at
countering the bad habits. It is kind of weird to start by telling
them to do exactly the opposite of toe-heel.
Not that toe first is wrong, but 95% of my students do not have
formal dance training, and worrying about leading with the toes
distracts them from learning good posture, and causes them to embed
bad habits.
> Stability is a function of posture and balance. Great posture is not
> only about looking good, but is necessary for leading and following
> and
> equilibrium. Plus as a person grows older, as we all will with any
> luck,
> posture and balance become more and more crucial in everyday life
> (I'm 73).
I'm completely in agreement here.
> As for worrying about the effect on various muscles, that mystifies
> me.
> Everything we do uses, stresses, stretches, affects any number of
> muscles, and that's a good thing, yes?? Muscles are there to be used.
Well, the dance teacher has to be aware of the consequences of their
teaching. To ask a beginner to dance toe first causes them to worry
about distracting details and carry the body in a completely
different way from normal. On the other hand, asking them to stride
heel first recalls their lifetime of walking down sidewalks. They can
use those finite brain muscles to think about dancing (moving a
partner through space) instead of Dahncing (worrying about details).
The dance teacher pays attention to what languag and what methodology
causes which muscles to activate, and how students actually learn
balance and posture. Learning is a layered process that progresses
faster if you understand and use prior layers that are already in place.
> Correct posture presupposes a strong core which makes it possible to
> move without dropping one's hip.
Well, correct posture MAY come from a strong core, but I would say
balance and tone are more important. I have a student with very weak
muscles (an illness), who has great posture. In fact, she has little
choice about core strength, and has learned how to stack her skeleton
and bones so that she can dance nicely with great posture and balance.
She isn't going to do volcadas, however.
> Only confusion results from taking as gospel everything any given
> teacher says -- how about filtering opinions through common sense and
> personal experience?. How about keeping one's eyes and mind open? We
> have been going to milongas in Argentina since 1987; a sea change
> happened in 1994 when Susana Miller began teaching and promoting
> "milonguero style". When we were in Bs As recently, after a 6-year
My first visit was in 1996. The milonguero style dominated at a few
of the clubs, and the dancers in these clubs, masters of the
"milonguero style" were older gentlemen, who were certainly not
trained by Susana Miller. Susana (among others) may have been
responsible for introducing huge numbers of people taking up tango,
but she didn't invent the style.
She translated it from the milongueros who were already dancing it at
those clubs.
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:45:22 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Here is a a wonderfully sweet youtube video of Osvaldo & Coca dancing
at El Beso. Maybe you've already seen it.
I notice that Osvaldo dances flat footed 95% of the time. He also
uses softened if not bent knees most of the time.
There is a point in the second dance where he goes up on his toes and
evokes a funky or street feeling with some little teasing steps, but
that is for special effect, and draws a cheer from the crowd.
(Although Susana Miller owns the club, she didn't teach Osvaldo).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNQQ77Rs76I
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:55:11 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first - it is first when
appropriate...
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I do not know why I am in this position...
At first the topic did not attract much of my attention, but somehow it
changed its direction...
Now, after all these Orillero posts you might think that I am an arrogant
and energetic proponent of street style of dancing.
Actually not. Not only...
Now I am going to speak on behalf of the Salon style.
Salon style in not tango for show. It also can be simple and very well felt
and very sensitive and heart-breaking. And it can be danced in very crowded
floors with very small steps - very suitable for social dancing.
And yes, when I think Salon, I think about toes more. Dancing Orillero,
Canyengue, Milonguero, I do not think what I am stepping with at all, but in
Salon style, yes. I do think about toes. They do play a huge part in the
feeling of the dance. They actually make dancing to be Salon.
Igor Polk
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:27:36 -0600
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first
To: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Tom wrote:
>Stage or Social? Beginners, Intermediates or Advanced? Trained
>dancers or normal people? This is an issue of correct context, not an
>issue of some intrinsic truth.
>
>
Al and I were over 50 years old when we started to learn tango, and
certainly not trained dancers, or with aspirations for the stage.We were
beginners, in 1987, but of course didn't realize it. Our teachers
understood this.
>Many of the teachers in Sergio's list are fundamentally
>performance dancers, are well-trained if not professional dancers.
>They primarily instruct in stage dancing, even if their students are
>often social dancers.. . I know that the immediate response will be that
>they also dance socially..
>
Yes, Copes, Copello, the Zottos, and Fabian are stage &/ or
professional dancers. And we did take classes from them, but our main
teachers were Fino Ribero, Pupi Castello, Lampaso, Nito Garcia (who only
became a teaching professional after we brought him to the States and
has almost never performed on stage), & Orlando Paiva ( a teacher but
seldom performer). None of these are primarily performers; all are
(were) social dancers. What is not usually understood is that before
1994, although the style now called "milonguero" was common in
center-city milongas, there were many dancers (and almost all those who
were admired for their dancing) who danced in styles used in the
neighborhoods.
>To get a better idea of how social dancers move, maybe we should look
>at some videos of actual social dancing. Watch what they do instead
>of what they say. Barbara suggests that as well.
>
>
Make sure that you watch videos made in the neighborhoods, as well in
the center, in the '80s and early '90s to understand what was happening
pre-1994. These were not breeding grounds for stage dancing, just good
dancers in a social situation. Unfortunately such videos are hard to find.
> If the leader's foot gets out in front
>of his body, then his partner shortens her stride and she gets
>stepped on (because she is measuring her stride from his body). The
>real issue is whether the leader's hips (and body) are carried
>forward over the ball of the foot. This is possible with landing on
>the balls, but it is a WHOLE lot easier using the heel-ball technique.
>
>
Of course, the whole point is that the lead starts from the leader's
body, the foot placement following, whether toe or heel-first.
>>Only confusion results from taking as gospel everything any given
>>teacher says -- how about filtering opinions through common sense and
>>personal experience?. How about keeping one's eyes and mind open? We
>>have been going to milongas in Argentina since 1987; a sea change
>>happened in 1994 when Susana Miller began teaching and promoting
>>"milonguero style".
>>
>>
>
>My first visit was in 1996. The milonguero style dominated at a few
>of the clubs,
>
Sic! . . .a few
There used to be a fabulous club called Centro Akarense in Villa
Urquiza, where all the best dancers went, the milongueros from the
center, the best neighborhood dancers, singles and couples, and the
aspiring professionals. Almost all of those who were already considered
professionals (Copes, the Dinzels, etc) were never seen at any milongas
except in a ceremonial context.The Friday night milonga at Akarense
closed in about 1993, and it has never been equaled, IMHO.I danced with
a number of men who I later discovered were considered "milongueros". I
remember the first time one of them, who I had danced with many times
before, over a number of years, used "milonguero" style. Several of the
women we were sitting with (Fino's widow among them) commented
disparagingly on the "new" style.
You confirm my point :
>The milonguero style dominated at a few
>of the clubs, and the dancers in these clubs, masters of the
>"milonguero style" were older gentlemen, who were certainly not
>trained by Susana Miller.
>
Of course she didn't invent the style; she promoted it as the "only"
social style of tango. It wasn't, and still isn't. Social tango is
whatever can be done respecting the line of dance, other dancers and the
music. The huge growth in tango tourism and international promotion has
resulted in the last ten years in the idea that the "milonguero" style
is the only social tango. And (exclusively)close embrace styles work
better in a very crowded situation.
It is true that the salon style of the neighborhoods was the basis of
stage tango, through the richness of its possibilities. However one
NEVER saw disruptive exhibition moves such as lifts, big ganchos, high
boleos, etc. at the milongas. Everyone (except some foreign touriests)
was entirely clear on the difference. Such moves were used only in
exhibition or on the stage. And now of course at alternative milongas
:-) worldwide.
Abrazos,
Barbara
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 01:54:21 +0000
From: rockies@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first
To: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>,
tango-l@mit.edu
<031420070154.14388.45F755CC000EC9B10000383422064246130101009B9D@comcast.net>
Sergio said:
> IMO most of the great tango dancers step toe first. What is understood as
> Salon style in the USA is supposed to be elegant, the body erect, walking
> toe first and long steps.
>
> This is the tango walk as taught by most of the Argentine tango teachers
> traveling through the USA.
>
> Nito, Carlos Copes, Osvaldo Zotto, Miguel Zotto, Carlos Copello and many in
> Buenos Aires like Mingo Pugliese, Puppy Costello, Fabian Salas, etc.
I watched footage of Osvaldo Zotto and Carlos Copello, and did not see evidence of this. In Osvaldo Zotto's instructional videos, he lands heel first and rolls onto the toes, however, he does keep his toes very low to the floor. The same holds true for Carlos Coplello, although if he is taking small steps, he will land ball first. When taking side steps, both dancers land on the balls of their feet, presumably to assist in pivoting maneuvers that may occur.
>>From a structural and mechanical viewpoint, the heel toe scenario makes much more sense. In order to remain properly balanced and provide thrust, from a nearly vertical and balanced skeletal position, it will be much more difficult to land on the ball of the foot. If there was back pressure from the follower, it would be significantly easier to land on the ball of the foot and still give a strong impulse to the follower for steps. A natural walk is a heel toe walk in every day life. For those who have had knee injuries, you quickly realize that landing flat footed or ball first (in long strides) puts unnatural forces on the joint, and can even cause pain. It is still possible to look elegant by keeping the toes very close to the floor, where the walk seems to have the illusion of being toe first, but the reality is that it's not. When landing on the balls of your feet, unless the movements are small, you are automatically putting yourself off balance or extending the leg in!
to
the f
ollowers space before the impulse to move. So by necessity, I think virtually all leaders who dance an upright style land heel toe, even most of the so called show dancers. They simply maintain the illusion that they are putting ball first.
Randy F
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:10:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
--- rockies@comcast.net wrote:
>>From a structural and mechanical viewpoint, the heel toe
> scenario makes much more sense. ... If there
> was back pressure from the follower, it would be
> significantly easier to land on the ball of the foot and
> still give a strong impulse to the follower for steps.
> Randy F
Aha! That back pressure from the follower during the
weight transfer was something I suspected was needed but
hadn't been able to experiment with fully as a leader.
Because of my small size, a lot of women won't give me that
pressure for fear of hurting me.
One male student has reported that his steps have
shortened, as Tom pointed out, with this new way of
walking. So now, we have something we can try.
Thanks, Tom & Randy.
What I have to watch out for now is whether the additional
pressure on the ball of the foot will cause long-term
injury. Since making a point of walking heel-first as a
follower, the leg cramps I used to get after milongas or
workshop weekends have disappeared. If those return, I'll
have to figure out what the problem could be.
As for Copes, Copella, Gavito, or whoever else who walks
toe-first, I'll bet that as 5, 6, or 7-year olds, they were
not taught to dance tango toe-first by their parents,
cousins, or whoever. I actually have no idea how old they
were when they started, but let's use some common sense
here. We also know that many early teachers had to learn
how to teach when the recent resurgence of tango began.
And many that had been dancing all of their lives couldn't
verbalize what they were doing exactly. Were their methods
of teaching the best ways possible? Perhaps not.
But we should also take into account that those who studied
tango with those teachers in the early years of the
resurgence (Barbara, Sergio, etc.) are also not "normal".
They are "innovators". These are the people who are not
afraid of breaking new ground, taking risks, and working
harder. But those that I teach will not all be innovators.
Most are normal.
So, I agree with Tom and Randy that stepping heel-first is
a good way of starting normal beginners. However, I also
see the value of walking toe-first for those who might be
ready to try it. Does that mean that they are training for
the stage? No, just that they are simply trying to be the
best dancer they can be.
As the level of dancing improves in the States, I see the
attempts at elegance with more emphasis on footwork to be a
natural progession. If you saw someone dancing elegantly
at a milonga, wouldn't you want to dance with him or
her(regardless of whether they dance toe-first or
heel-first)?
I think it takes more work to dance toe-first. It is those
additional pieces that I am trying to fit together.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:36:33 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
A student of mine pointed out that the footwork of a really good
dancer is extremely subtle. It may be difficult to visually determine
whether the weight was taken first by the heel or toe. Rolling
through the foot? Landing on ball but not heel? Landing on ball then
back to heel?
Even on stage the foot placement may not be as important as the
particular visual line of leg and foot.
LAYERED OF LEARNING
My position comes from the fact that I am teaching normal, (mostly
middle-aged) adults. When I teach ballerinas or someone from
ballroom, I pull them aside for more specific words.
Focussing on details of foot placement, specifically telling a
beginner to land toe first, is a huge distraction from more important
things, like standing upright, walking boldly forward, walking in a
straight line, leading the follower, learning tango steps.
More than that, the focus on toe first creates bad habits and really
weird walking. Again, it isn't about the foot placement, but about
what happens in the torso, hips and upper legs. Normal, "sidewalk"
walking is a great foundation for tango walking. Details of foot
placement should come later when the student has balance, posture and
confidence.
On Mar 15, 2007, at 11:10 AM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> ...
> Thanks, Tom & Randy.
>
> ...
> So, I agree with Tom and Randy that stepping heel-first is
> a good way of starting normal beginners. However, I also
> see the value of walking toe-first for those who might be
> ready to try it. Does that mean that they are training for
> the stage? No, just that they are simply trying to be the
> best dancer they can be.
> ...
> I think it takes more work to dance toe-first. It is those
> additional pieces that I am trying to fit together.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:08:34 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Tom Stermitz wrote:
<snip/>
>My position comes from the fact that I am teaching normal, (mostly
>middle-aged) adults. When I teach ballerinas or someone from
>ballroom, I pull them aside for more specific words.
>
>
Tom et al,
One of the women who has recently taken up CE in our community is a
ballroom dancer with quite a bit of experience. As I do not teach tango,
could I trouble any or all of you for things I should watch for to help
her? She is very motivated to learn but I know that she is frustrated.
Thanks in Advance,
Jeff G
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:15:07 -0700
From: "David Liu" <dwyliu@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
To: "Jeff Gaynor" <jjg@jqhome.net>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<30ad4e030703151315p3dea330el99ab3ab55abf4b39@mail.gmail.com>
Jeff,
Some things come to mind:
THE EMBRACE
- The facing is more frontal, with her sternum and hips usually facing
the centerline through your body
- Her arms should have her elbows relaced and down, rather than up in
a traditional ballroom position, with a gentle pressure between her
left upper arm and forearm and the parts of your body that they
contact
- Her right arm likewise has the elbow down with a gentle pressure
WEIGHT CHANGES
- Ballroom dancers often change weight when they shouldn't - she
should only change weight if you lead a weight change, otherwise
everything else that happens is a step. This often comes up when
transitioning in ochos or a left-foot-basic for example.
Just a few common differences from Ballroom.
Best,
David
On 3/15/07, Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net> wrote:
> Tom Stermitz wrote:
>
> <snip/>
>
> >My position comes from the fact that I am teaching normal, (mostly
> >middle-aged) adults. When I teach ballerinas or someone from
> >ballroom, I pull them aside for more specific words.
> >
> >
> Tom et al,
>
> One of the women who has recently taken up CE in our community is a
> ballroom dancer with quite a bit of experience. As I do not teach tango,
> could I trouble any or all of you for things I should watch for to help
> her? She is very motivated to learn but I know that she is frustrated.
>
> Thanks in Advance,
>
> Jeff G
>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:18:15 -0500
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
>Focussing on details of foot placement, specifically telling a
>beginner to land toe first, is a huge distraction from more important
>things, like standing upright, walking boldly forward, walking in a
>straight line, leading the follower, learning tango steps.
>
>More than that, the focus on toe first creates bad habits and really
>weird walking. Again, it isn't about the foot placement, but about
>what happens in the torso, hips and upper legs. Normal, "sidewalk"
>walking is a great foundation for tango walking. Details of foot
>placement should come later when the student has balance, posture and
>confidence.
>
You are totally right on this Tom. I'd even go so far as saying that
focusing on almost all the finer points of technique can be a huge obstacle
to learning to dance tango. One of the worst problems I see is that some
dancers lean forward so much that they are always falling. I guess they are
focusing so much on "leading from the chest" form that they miss the whole
point of standing on one's own axis. A more natural way of moving is crucial
for dancing and any exaggeration must be avoided if possible.
Manuel
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 03:56:23 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
Tom, Manuel and other heel-walkers,
Yes, learning Tango with a 'normal sidewalk walk' does make everything a
lot easier. But that's often how their Tango ends up - looking like they're
walking around the dance floor. But, aren't we supposed to be dancing? I
heard a comment recently in Buenos Aires that 'many people practise Tango
but few dance it.' I've thought the same myself many times, but it was nice
to hear it confirmed in, when it comes to Tango, the only place that really
matters.
You can move around the dance floor, following all the tango patterns that
you know, stepping in time with the music, leading your partner well, having
good balance and posture, but unless you have the correct leg and foot action
and correct foot-placement, there's a very good chance that you're not actually
dancing at all. We dance with our feet and, as Deby said recently, when other
dancers watch you dance, they look at your feet. They don't look at your "torso,
hips and upper legs".
I do agree with Manuel that "A more natural way of moving is crucial for dancing
and any exaggeration must be avoided if possible."
But what's natural for walking isn't the same as what will feel natural for
dancing - given time, practice and correct instruction. Don't just take
the easy way - learning to dance takes time and effort and it isn't just
sidewalk walking. And once a bad habit is learned, it's very difficult to
change.
In the 90s, I attended beginner classes in Buenos Aires where entire 2-hour
classes consisted only of walking, with the emphasis on correct foot placement and,
trust me, it was never heel-first. And then we wonder why Argentines dance so much
better than the rest of humanity. It's all in the walking folks - wake up!
As for Tom's comment that ... 'learning tango steps is more important than focussing
on details of foot placement', I don't normally talk in terms of absolutes, but Tom,
you're absolutely wrong.
Keith
On Thu Mar 15 21:18 , "WHITE 95 R" sent:
>
>>Focussing on details of foot placement, specifically telling a
>>beginner to land toe first, is a huge distraction from more important
>>things, like standing upright, walking boldly forward, walking in a
>>straight line, leading the follower, learning tango steps.
>>
>>More than that, the focus on toe first creates bad habits and really
>>weird walking. Again, it isn't about the foot placement, but about
>>what happens in the torso, hips and upper legs. Normal, "sidewalk"
>>walking is a great foundation for tango walking. Details of foot
>>placement should come later when the student has balance, posture and
>>confidence.
>>
>
>You are totally right on this Tom. I'd even go so far as saying that
>focusing on almost all the finer points of technique can be a huge obstacle
>to learning to dance tango. One of the worst problems I see is that some
>dancers lean forward so much that they are always falling. I guess they are
>focusing so much on "leading from the chest" form that they miss the whole
>point of standing on one's own axis. A more natural way of moving is crucial
>for dancing and any exaggeration must be avoided if possible.
>
>Manuel
>
>Rates near 39yr lows! $430K Loan for $1,399/mo - Paying Too Much? Calculate
>new payment
>https://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp\?sourceid=lmb-9632-18226&moidu81
>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 05:17:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
--- Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
> I do agree with Manuel that "A more natural way of moving
> is crucial for dancing
> and any exaggeration must be avoided if possible."
>
> But what's natural for walking isn't the same as what
> will feel natural for
> dancing - given time, practice and correct instruction.
This is the crux of my original post, not whether walking
heel-first or toe-first is better or more authentic.
Whenever I've tried walking toe-first as some teachers have
instructed (either as a leader or follower), I've felt like
a prancing pony. As a follower instructed to stay on the
balls of my feet and walk toe-first, I've had leg cramps
and foot problems.
The person we've been studying with lately is Alicia Pons,
whose footwork (toe-first) comes from working so much with
the core and the entire body. We've been praticing and
reviewing the material the past couple of weeks. Walking
toe-first (leader or follower) is getting easier, however,
issues are emerging about making things flow better. For
example, last night, I experimented successfully with an
experienced male student on bending his knee more to keep
his foot under him instead of extended beyond him. These
are things I think teachers who walk toe-first are taking
for granted and not fully explaining. And our time with
Alicia was limited.
Walking up a flight a stairs is the only activity that I
can think of in which one lands toe-first naturally. But
that's not the walk for tango either.
Lifting the quads of the free leg brings about the prancing
look and conflicts with the idea of the free leg being,
well, free. Hence the necessity of using the core muscles
to lift the hip of the free leg that allows the foot to
land toe-first.
The body is an amazingly complex mechanism that needs to be
studied as a whole. So, toe-walkers, what else might you
be doing that enables this graceful, elegant walk?
The culture of milongas in BsAs is also different and
self-enforces the importance of appearances. Alicia
teaches her students to have their tango posture "on" the
second they walk through the door. Even getting up to go
the bathroom is evaluated (don't forget to walk in time to
the music!). People say that it's all a big show. No
wonder. That doesn't work in the States, where just trying
to get dancers can be a struggle.
So, patience, Keith. Since 9/11, it has become much harder
for Argentines to come to the States to teach. This has
opened the door for American instructors, many of whom
teach heel-first and whose goals are to simply create a
community where none might exist. This has even softened
up the Argentines about walking toe-first. But as
competition to get dances at the major festivals increases,
there'll be more toe-first dancers showing up.
Happy walking,
Trini de Pittsburgh
P.S. Alicia will be in Indianapolis this weekend and
Cincinnati next weekend.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:34:42 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
On Mar 16, 2007, at 1:56 AM, Keith wrote:
> Tom, Manuel and other heel-walkers,
> ...
> You can move around the dance floor, following all the tango
> patterns that
> you know, stepping in time with the music, leading your partner
> well, having
> good balance and posture, but unless you have the correct leg and
> foot action
> and correct foot-placement, there's a very good chance that you're
> not actually
> dancing at all. We dance with our feet and, as Deby said recently,
> when other
> dancers watch you dance, they look at your feet. They don't look at
> your "torso,
> hips and upper legs".
I disagree with this comment.
OF COURSE they are dancing: "Moving a beautiful partner around the
floor while the band is playing glorious music". It may be inelegant,
awkward, look bad, but by gosh it is certainly dancing, and that is
why they are there.
My bigger gripe would be when they don't step on the beat, or don't
move in a musical fashion, i.e. energizing movement to correspond
with the phrasing. If there is a single missing thing in Tango
outside of Argentina it is musicality.... who cares about the
footwork if they aren't even musical.
> I do agree with Manuel that "A more natural way of moving is
> crucial for dancing
> and any exaggeration must be avoided if possible."
Natural movement is the crux of my point. "Sidewalk walking" is
natural for people, so that is a great place to start. The average
guy arrives at tango capable of walking apartner around the room with
out bumping into anyone; many teachers take away that ability in
class number one, for example teaching them the 8CB with dreaded
backstep. Memorize that pattern and they won't be dancing (moving
around the room) for months.
I don't disagree that careful footwork and training and practice in
how to walk is important. But, my point is that you can't feed
details like that at beginners (or even intermediates), or else you
create strange distortions.
It is a fair question whether allowing them to continue heel walking
would instill bad habits. My experience (10 years) leads me to layer
the learning, starting with a foundation and adding details later.
What happens in the torso, a conception of movement and how to lead
follow are foundational.
Attempting to have beginners walk with toes first distorts the
foundation. Worse, it distracts them from a 20 other things that are
more important. Those poor guys trying not to step on their partners
feet, sticking their butts out, walking splay-legged, and now you
want to ask them to walk toe-first?
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:41:11 -0700
From: romerob@telusplanet.net
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Trini wrote:
>Walking up a flight a stairs is the only activity that I
can think of in which one lands toe-first naturally. But
that's not the walk for tango either.<
My 2 cents:
The corrida in tango is usually done on the ball of your feet or toes
depending how one is able to navigate with ease. The idea is not to lift the
heels too much off the floor.
The straight corrida has been said to be analogous to walking down an
imaginary flight of steps.
The corrida is a longtime walking step figure in tango, vals, and milonga. Its
roots harken back to an european dance called schottish or chitis in spanish.
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:56:21 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
>From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
>
>Tom, Manuel and other heel-walkers,
Hi Keith, first of all you should watch me dance before calling me a "heel
walker" ;-)... Secondly, what I was talking about and what I understood Tom
to say is that focusing on *fine* points of technique such as "toe
first"walking can be a huge obstacle to a beginner dancer. A lot of folks
have horrible posture and their walking or standing "normally" is terrible.
They must be taught how to walk and move through space before they can begin
to dance. If you tell them perfectly reasonable and correct points of
technique, they'll likely focus on it and forget everything else. In their
effort to achieve that point of technique they might end up twisted up like
pretzels.
I won't argue that technique is unimportant. On the contrary, as many
already said, the walking is most important. And proper technique is most
desirable for good dancing. OTOH, there are opposing opinions about the "toe
first" and "heel first" methods. I've had some very well respected
(Argentineans of high reputation) teachers and dancers tell me unequivocally
to land "heel first". I've also been taught by other equally well known
Argentinean tango teachers to step "toe first". I've learned that they are
both correct depending on how one dances, what style one uses, the
conditions of the milonga, etc.
Cheers,
Manuel
i'm making a difference. Make every IM count for the cause of your choice.
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:57:38 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
I've made my decision to suggest to students a heel-first walk through a
little different method. When I dance with a gentleman and it is wonderful,
or if friends come back to my table tingling, I spend a lot of time
observing how he dances. I find that heel-toe is how they are mostly
dancing. This is true even for teachers who teach toe-heel. However, they
may change this up for certain circumstances.
At this juncture in my tango career, I can feel when a leader is
toe-walking. It doesn't have the flow-through feeling that I prefer.
Anyway, tango is a highly individualized dance, and I tell students that
they will develop their own style. I like this poem, which can be applied to
so many things:
"Of course I'll gladly give de rule
I meks beat biscuit by.
Dough I ain't sure dat you will mek
Dat bread de same as I
Case cookin's like religion is-
Some's 'lected an' some ain't,
An' rules don't know more mek a cook
Den sermons mek a saint." Miss Howard Weeden, 1899
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Stermitz [mailto:stermitz@tango.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:37 PM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
A student of mine pointed out that the footwork of a really good
dancer is extremely subtle. It may be difficult to visually determine
whether the weight was taken first by the heel or toe. Rolling
through the foot? Landing on ball but not heel? Landing on ball then
back to heel?
Even on stage the foot placement may not be as important as the
particular visual line of leg and foot.
LAYERED OF LEARNING
My position comes from the fact that I am teaching normal, (mostly
middle-aged) adults. When I teach ballerinas or someone from
ballroom, I pull them aside for more specific words.
Focussing on details of foot placement, specifically telling a
beginner to land toe first, is a huge distraction from more important
things, like standing upright, walking boldly forward, walking in a
straight line, leading the follower, learning tango steps.
More than that, the focus on toe first creates bad habits and really
weird walking. Again, it isn't about the foot placement, but about
what happens in the torso, hips and upper legs. Normal, "sidewalk"
walking is a great foundation for tango walking. Details of foot
placement should come later when the student has balance, posture and
confidence.
On Mar 15, 2007, at 11:10 AM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> ...
> Thanks, Tom & Randy.
>
> ...
> So, I agree with Tom and Randy that stepping heel-first is
> a good way of starting normal beginners. However, I also
> see the value of walking toe-first for those who might be
> ready to try it. Does that mean that they are training for
> the stage? No, just that they are simply trying to be the
> best dancer they can be.
> ...
> I think it takes more work to dance toe-first. It is those
> additional pieces that I am trying to fit together.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:18 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Tom wrote:
> If there is a single missing thing in Tango
> outside of Argentina it is musicality
Tar your own countrymen if you must, Tom, but please don't use the same
brush on the rest of us!
Manuel wrote
> some ... tell me unequivocally to land "heel first".
> I've also been taught ... "toe first".
> I've learned that they are both correct depending on how one dances
I've learned both are correct depending on how one lands one's foot.
;)
--
Chris
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:01:00 -0400
From: miamidances@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
> From Manuel: . I've had some very well respected (Argentineans of high reputation) teachers and dancers tell me unequivocally to land "heel first". I've also been taught by other equally well known Argentinean tango teachers to step "toe first". I've learned that they are both correct depending on how one dances, what style one uses, the conditions of the milonga, etc.
First impressions are lasting. Whatever someone hears in their first lesson, they believe to be correct weather it is right or wrong.
If you don't have mirrors at your facility, I feel sorry for you. I've had to work without mirrors before, I now have mirrors. For those of us that have mirrors to use in instruction, I have never understood why people teach walking around the room in a circle. I use the mirrors for people to see how they walk going forward and backward. To see their feet on a parallel track, with their legs brushing together as each leg passes the other leg. It is amazing to see how poorly people walk. Seeing the funny things that they do with their legs and feet should be video tapped and sent to America's Funniest home videos.
However you dance is how you should teach. I'm astounded at the way demonstrators show one thing and do something different when they dance.
At the 2003 USTC Tango Fantasy event on Miami Beach, we held the US qualifying IDO Tango Championships. There was a tie for first place. Instead of a dance off, Juan Carlos Copes and Miguel Angel Zotto awarded first place to the American couple that respected the toe first method of footwork over the Argentine couple that used Heel first techinque.
If it feels good do it.
Randy in Miami
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:06 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> I have never understood why people teach walking around the room in a
> circle.
I cannot believe I just read that!!!
> we held the US qualifying IDO Tango Championships.
Ah, now I can. ;)
--
Chris
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:55:22 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
I've made my decision to suggest to students a heel-first walk through a
little different method. When I dance with a gentleman and it is wonderful,
or if friends come back to my table tingling, I spend a lot of time
observing how he dances. I find that heel-toe is how they are mostly
dancing. This is true even for teachers who teach toe-heel. However, they
may change this up for certain circumstances.
At this juncture in my tango career, I can feel when a leader is
toe-walking. It doesn't have the flow-through feeling that I prefer.
Anyway, tango is a highly individualized dance, and I tell students that
they will develop their own style. I like this poem, which can be applied to
so many things:
"Of course I'll gladly give de rule
I meks beat biscuit by.
Dough I ain't sure dat you will mek
Dat bread de same as I
Case cookin's like religion is-
Some's 'lected an' some ain't,
An' rules don't know more mek a cook
Den sermons mek a saint." Miss Howard Weeden, 1899
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Stermitz [mailto:stermitz@tango.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:37 PM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
A student of mine pointed out that the footwork of a really good
dancer is extremely subtle. It may be difficult to visually determine
whether the weight was taken first by the heel or toe. Rolling
through the foot? Landing on ball but not heel? Landing on ball then
back to heel?
Even on stage the foot placement may not be as important as the
particular visual line of leg and foot.
LAYERED OF LEARNING
My position comes from the fact that I am teaching normal, (mostly
middle-aged) adults. When I teach ballerinas or someone from
ballroom, I pull them aside for more specific words.
Focussing on details of foot placement, specifically telling a
beginner to land toe first, is a huge distraction from more important
things, like standing upright, walking boldly forward, walking in a
straight line, leading the follower, learning tango steps.
More than that, the focus on toe first creates bad habits and really
weird walking. Again, it isn't about the foot placement, but about
what happens in the torso, hips and upper legs. Normal, "sidewalk"
walking is a great foundation for tango walking. Details of foot
placement should come later when the student has balance, posture and
confidence.
On Mar 15, 2007, at 11:10 AM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> ...
> Thanks, Tom & Randy.
>
> ...
> So, I agree with Tom and Randy that stepping heel-first is
> a good way of starting normal beginners. However, I also
> see the value of walking toe-first for those who might be
> ready to try it. Does that mean that they are training for
> the stage? No, just that they are simply trying to be the
> best dancer they can be.
> ...
> I think it takes more work to dance toe-first. It is those
> additional pieces that I am trying to fit together.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:54:08 -0600
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first: Lucha libre
observations
To: Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net>
Cc: 'Tango-L' <tango-l@mit.edu>
Just returned from an evening of Lucha Libre in the non-tourist part of
town ( if you've seen the movie Nacho Libre, the real thing-- which film
critics have evidently never experienced-- is more outrageous) and I
observed that the luchadores walk heel first going forward and toe first
going back (and for back flips out of the ring).
Of course their aim is not to look good, but to make their opponent, and
maybe the referee, fall flat on his back.
Viva Mexico,
Barbara
Lois Donnay wrote:
>I've made my decision to suggest to students a heel-first walk through a
>little different method. When I dance with a gentleman and it is wonderful,
>or if friends come back to my table tingling, I spend a lot of time
>observing how he dances. I find that heel-toe is how they are mostly
>dancing. This is true even for teachers who teach toe-heel. However, they
>may change this up for certain circumstances.
>
>At this juncture in my tango career, I can feel when a leader is
>toe-walking. It doesn't have the flow-through feeling that I prefer.
>
>Anyway, tango is a highly individualized dance, and I tell students that
>they will develop their own style. I like this poem, which can be applied to
>so many things:
>
>"Of course I'll gladly give de rule
>I meks beat biscuit by.
>Dough I ain't sure dat you will mek
>Dat bread de same as I
>Case cookin's like religion is-
>Some's 'lected an' some ain't,
>An' rules don't know more mek a cook
>Den sermons mek a saint." Miss Howard Weeden, 1899
>
>Lois Donnay
>Minneapolis, MN
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Stermitz [mailto:stermitz@tango.org]
>Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:37 PM
>To: Tango-L
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Heel-first versus Toe-first, teaching history
>
>A student of mine pointed out that the footwork of a really good
>dancer is extremely subtle. It may be difficult to visually determine
>whether the weight was taken first by the heel or toe. Rolling
>through the foot? Landing on ball but not heel? Landing on ball then
>back to heel?
>
>Even on stage the foot placement may not be as important as the
>particular visual line of leg and foot.
>
>
>LAYERED OF LEARNING
>
>My position comes from the fact that I am teaching normal, (mostly
>middle-aged) adults. When I teach ballerinas or someone from
>ballroom, I pull them aside for more specific words.
>
>Focussing on details of foot placement, specifically telling a
>beginner to land toe first, is a huge distraction from more important
>things, like standing upright, walking boldly forward, walking in a
>straight line, leading the follower, learning tango steps.
>
>More than that, the focus on toe first creates bad habits and really
>weird walking. Again, it isn't about the foot placement, but about
>what happens in the torso, hips and upper legs. Normal, "sidewalk"
>walking is a great foundation for tango walking. Details of foot
>placement should come later when the student has balance, posture and
>confidence.
>
>
>
>On Mar 15, 2007, at 11:10 AM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>
>
>
>>...
>>Thanks, Tom & Randy.
>>
>>...
>>So, I agree with Tom and Randy that stepping heel-first is
>>a good way of starting normal beginners. However, I also
>>see the value of walking toe-first for those who might be
>>ready to try it. Does that mean that they are training for
>>the stage? No, just that they are simply trying to be the
>>best dancer they can be.
>>...
>>I think it takes more work to dance toe-first. It is those
>>additional pieces that I am trying to fit together.
>>
>>Trini de Pittsburgh
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
