2051 How different open, closed ...
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:26:09 -0500
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: How different open, closed ...
Steve writes:
"In my experience, however, I find that a firm frame is neither necessary
nor
desirable for dancing an open embrace. Open or close, I always prefer a
soft embrace (and no leading with the arms)."
I could write here that in my experience I prefer to dance head down to the
floor and legs up in the air, as well but I rather ask what Steve
understands for firm versus soft frame, and then how he leads when in open
embrace if he dances with soft, limp arms .
The reason I ask this question is because when writing and reading e-mails
it is very easy to be talking about quite different things; this certainly
creates myriad of misunderstandings.
I know or have seen to dance most of the well known tango instructors. I
have never seen anyone dance in an open embrace with soft, limp arms or not
leading in some way with the arms and or hands. (they use their torsos as
well at the same time).
I will mention just a few Osvaldo Zotto, Nito y Elba, Diego y Carolina,
Puppy Costello, Cieri, Jorge Firpo, Guillermo Merlo, the Misses, etc. even
the New tango dancers although they claim to lead with the torso counter
body motion, etc,(which they do) use what is known as a firm frame.
I would like to know who else other than Steve dances in open embrace using
a soft, limp frame .
We should also be specific about what we understand as "Dancing in open
embrace" . I understand it as all the usual moves done in "Salon Tango".
Oleh says: "Last Saturday I was able to dance
entire tango without arms/hands contact, leading with *direct* torso contact
doing all the steps I would normally lead in close embrace except volcada
and single axis turns. Let me ask you this question: can you do the same -
dance tango with no arms at a distance (no direct torso contact) doing all
the usual steps? Now ask your follower to close her eyes and still follow."
I answer no, I can not.
We sometimes like to dance forehead to forehead. The forehead being the only
point of contact with arms crossed at the back. It is possible to lead this
way in a very effective, romantic way. Here I agree with you that "the eyes"
may help some to follow each other's torsos. Nest time I will try to do it
with the follower's eyes closed. :))
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:59:20 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: How different open, closed ...
Steve writes:
"In my experience, however, I find that a firm frame is neither necessary
nor desirable for dancing an open embrace. Open or close, I always prefer a
soft embrace (and no leading with the arms)."
Sergio wrote:
>>>
I know or have seen to dance most of the well known tango instructors. I
have never seen anyone dance in an open embrace with soft, limp arms or not
leading in some way with the arms and or hands. (they use their torsos as
well at the same time). I will mention just a few Osvaldo Zotto, Nito y
Elba, Diego y Carolina, Puppy Costello, Cieri, Jorge Firpo, Guillermo Merlo,
the Misses, etc. even
the New tango dancers although they claim to lead with the torso counter
body motion, etc., (which they do) use what is known as a firm frame.
I would like to know who else other than Steve dances in open embrace using
a soft, limp frame .
<<<
OK! First of all, I note that the word "limp" is Sergio's usage, not
Steve's. ;)
Second, in a truly spectacular class series with Gustavo Naveira and Giselle
Anne in Buenos Aires this spring (repeated in Los Angeles at Tango Fireworks
2003), G y G showed their material done, as an exercise, without hands or
arms, sometimes touching in some way in ganchos or volcadas, sometimes not.
(Obviously, colgadas are impossible ;> ) Then they had the entire class try
it. This was difficult at times, but the point seemed to be to use this
exercise as a way of training leaders to "de-arm" the lead, and make us
aware of "just how much lead could be communicated with no arms at all?"
(The answer: an AWFUL lot)
Lastly, in a class series with Brigitta Winkler in Colorado this October,
Mauricio Castro repeatedly demonstrated and taught (even to beginners!) a
no-hands/no-arms lead, which worked very well, using basic innate principles
of body language. More advanced dancers succeeded in integrating the
principles he was advocating into more sophisticated vocabulary, eventually
reinstituting the use of arms and hands in both open- and close-embrace with
a new awareness. Advanced followers reported a lot of enjoyment in
following these "soft" leads, and tended to prefer them to traditional
"firm-frame" dancing (open-embrace) or "firm-hold" dancing (close-embrace),
which in both cases often slid over the line into unnecessary muscle tension
in the lead.
Of course, if you LIKE unnecessary muscle tension, that's different... ;)
But I recommend at least experimenting with the technique used by Gustavo y
Giselle, and explorations like those used by Mauricio Castro. You may find,
as I did, that attention to these concepts can pleasurably transform your
dancing.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:47:24 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: How different open, closed ...
Sergio wrote:
>I rather ask what Steve understands for firm versus soft
>frame, and then how he leads when in open embrace if he
>dances with soft, limp arms .
My own experience is that there is quite a range in the degrees of
firmness between rigid and limp, so some of the apparent differences
Sergio's perspective and mine may be sematic.
In saying that I prefer a softer embrace, I mean that I want the embrace
to have enough softness in it to provide some flexibility for movement. At
the same time I would prefer to feel the energy of my partner in the
embrace. If we are in an open position, a little bit of energy in our
arms is helpful because our chests are less able to transmit and receive
the all of the energy we may choose to express, but our chests remain the
primary conduits for the energy.
>I will mention just a few Osvaldo Zotto, Nito y Elba,
>Diego y Carolina, Puppy Costello, Cieri, Jorge Firpo,
>Guillermo Merlo, the Misses, etc.
I am not denying the authencity of a nearly rigid open embrace by any
means, nor am I claiming that what I prefer is the best for everyone. I
am just saying that I prefer a softer embrace--one that is probably softer
than the embraces used by some of the people Sergio has named. I will
say, however, no woman has ever asked me to make my embrace firmer and
that has been many years since any woman has told me that my lead was
unclear. At the same time, the women with whom I most enjoy dancing give
me the impression that our embrace is shared and voluntary--neither stiff
and open like we can never really touch each other, nor clamped on tight
to the point where we do not have our own spaces.
>... even the New tango dancers although they claim to lead with
>the torso counter body motion, etc,(which they do) use what
>is known as a firm frame.
I used to think of both partners softening their arms as the embrace
became closer and the frame moved into the woman. It was really the nuevo
dancers/instructors--particularly Fabian Salas--who opened my eyes about
the idea of using a softer embrace in a more open position. The nuevo
dancers softened their arms to open up more possibilities for movement.
Imagine trying to do an overturn ocho in a somewhat open embrace while
keeping the arms rigid and not leading with the arms. It may be possible,
but it certainly doesn't feel that good. So, the softer embrace may be a
more modern approach to dancing tango in an open embrace.
Once I discovered that a nearly rigid embrace was not really necessary, I
was no longer interested in using it for any style of tango dancing.
Interestingly enough, I found that a softer embrace makes shifting between
dancing in an open and close embrace much easier. It also allows the
woman greater flexibility in initiating her own, unled movements.
>I have never seen anyone dance in an open embrace with soft, limp
>arms or not leading in some way with the arms and or hands. (they
>use their torsos as well at the same time).
Using a softer (not limp) embrace, the lead originates in the movements of
the torso/chest. In some cases, the lead can be further transmitted by
the movements of the arms and hands that go along with the torso/chest
movement, but when dancing with an experienced woman, the arms and hands
accompany the movement. They are not necessary to initiate her movements
in any way. In fact, as Brian Dunn described, it is completely possible
to lead and follow movements in an embrace that is open and in which
neither partner is touching each other.
As Brian Dunn writes:
>>More advanced dancers succeeded in integrating the principles he
>>[Mauricio Castro] was advocating into more sophisticated vocabulary,
>>eventually reinstituting the use of arms and hands in both open-
>>and close-embrace with a new awareness. Advanced followers reported
>>a lot of enjoyment in following these "soft" leads, and tended to
>>prefer them to traditional "firm-frame" dancing (open-embrace) or
>>"firm-hold" dancing (close-embrace), which in both cases often
>>slid over the line into unnecessary muscle tension in the lead.
I once heard a woman describe her experience dancing with Pablo Veron. She
said that she never felt the lead and that he had willed her movements
rather than led them. To me, she described a perfect connection. The
sound of her voice and the look in her eyes gave me the same impression.
Many happy tangos,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:50:29 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: How different open, closed ...
Sergio quoted Steve and responded:
>Steve writes:
>"In my experience, however, I find that a firm frame is neither necessary
>nor
>desirable for dancing an open embrace. Open or close, I always prefer a
>soft embrace (and no leading with the arms)."
>...
>I know or have seen to dance most of the well known tango instructors. I
>have never seen anyone dance in an open embrace with soft, limp arms or not
>leading in some way with the arms and or hands. (they use their torsos as
>well at the same time).
>
>I will mention just a few Osvaldo Zotto, Nito y Elba, Diego y Carolina,
>Puppy Costello, Cieri, Jorge Firpo, Guillermo Merlo, the Misses, etc. even
>the New tango dancers although they claim to lead with the torso counter
>body motion, etc,(which they do) use what is known as a firm frame.
There is rigid vs light, and then there is tone or quality of the
muscular tension.
Other dances such as WCS use a similar idea of TONE, which connects
into our core, rather than a forceful frame. I don't even like the
word "frame" as it makes everything seem rigid...how about embrace,
which sounds a lot more romantic.
The Meta or Zen Embrace:
In any case, in tango our proprioseptic awareness must reach into our
partner's ENTIRE body for us to be completely in tune with each
other's movements. While there might be more or less muscle tone in
the arms, the mental focus becomes axis-to-axis (torso-to-torso)
rather than rigid frame or pushing with the hands. This creates an
"energy awareness" (to use a useful but fuzzy terminology) that
enables us to intuitively visualize the axis, torsion, momentum and
movements of our partner.
You can really see the difference when leaders are pushing the
followers around relying on arms and hands without connecting the
movements to the core of their own or partner's bodies. "There is no
connection!"
Opening Doorways into Space:
The other piece of "non-touch" tango involves planning or predicting
the moving three (or more!) dimensional geometries of two human
bodies..."I spiral, pulling my shoulder back and opening a doorway to
the left, she feels it and increases the angle of her ocho so she
moves around me faster." The ocho vs "alteration" is led very easily
by opening one doorway and closing another.
Practitioners of limp-arm tango
There are indeed dancers who lead with soft limp arms, e.g. more
radical interpreters in the nuevo genre such as Chicho. On the other
hand, Gustavo & Fabian maintain a more traditional appearing embrace
as a "pose" on top of their dance, which I would still describe as
based on a good axis-to-axis connection.
Sergio and even Oleh have claimed arms and frame are the necessary
focus to do all or most movements in open-embrace, but in my
experience leading fancier material absolutely requires that the
woman power her own movements, not be pushed through them.
For example, the woman doing giros around the man who is decorating
repeated elements like rulo, lapiz or aguja. This requires that she
not hang on him or rely on his arms too much. For her to follow with
a light arm connection in open embrace requires all her senses (not
to mention extensive practice!), and the visual sense becomes
essential if we are not body-on-body close. Likewise for the leader.
It is sort of like Judo, you have to rely on your partner's ability
to complete the motion, even as you capture the momentum to take it
elsewhere.
Social Dancers in Buenos Aires
In dancing in the milongas of Buenos Aires with SOCIAL dancers, not
performers, I have found that the actual embrace tends to be on the
rigid rather than light side. If you don't firmly lead with the hands
the typical dancer feels that you aren't being clear. Dispite that,
my preference or habits are to the lighter embrace, as I feel it is
unpleasant, and probably harmful to use a lot of muscle force.
I've found that the highest-quality performance dancers, prefer a
much lighter lead, one that doesn't push them around. Certain moments
might use a more-or-less forceful push (let's say the sharp rebound
of a hard boleo), but normally, they prefer for the woman to power
their movements, not the man.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:50:48 +1100
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: How different open, closed ...
Stephen said:
> In saying that I prefer a softer embrace, I mean that I want the embrace
> to have enough softness in it to provide some flexibility for movement. At
> the same time I would prefer to feel the energy of my partner in the
> embrace.
Perhaps what is being discussed here is the difference (which is not clear
cut) between:
1) lets call it 'placement connection' - me being able to place my partner
on a particular foot, or at a position, by asking her with my body. And
conversely, her feeling this placement immediately, and being able to follow
it without conscious interpretation. Obviously, this involves movement,
acceleration and momentum, but the emphasis is on position.
2) let's call it 'movement connection' - me being able to feel and use the
momentum of my partner, in other words her mass (and soul!) moving in
whatever direction (including linear horizontal and vertical, and rotation,
and speeding up/slowing down). Conversely, her feeling my momentum - or the
part of it I want her to respond to - and responding with her own movement.
This can be transmitted through the torso, or through the arms (or indeed
any other part of the body in other forms of dance). Obviously, this
involves position, but the emphasis is on momentum and movement.
I think some open embrace tango, especially improvised nuevo tango
performance, uses a lot of communication through momentum - I think this was
very visible in the video discussed recently of Mauricio and Carla.
The 'soft embrace' (I would prefer to call it 'flexible' or 'dynamic') is I
think actually how the leader is able to _choose_ which part of their
momentum, or their placement, they want the follower to respond to.
Also, Michael said:
> Intuition doesn't work.
> The woman should follow what the man LEADS, which ISN'T always what he
> INTENDED.
I think intuition, in the sense of 'immediate cognition', is actually a
very important part of following. Yes, the follower follows what she gets
from the leader, but it is immediately interpreted (not consciously) by her,
resulting in a tango movement. This learned skill is, I believe, most of
what a follower needs to learn.
I don't want to write an essay on language, but... communication happens
_between_ two people - it requires action by both. Language exists to enable
communication, it is not communication itself. The "language" of
leading/following in tango, and in other dances, is complex. In particular,
the 'meaning' of a lead is dependent on both leader and follower. Part of
'making a connection' with a new partner is essentially negotiating a
language - which is part of why we have tandas.
my 2c as always, with the usual caveats.
--
Gary Barnes
Canberra, Australia
"more tango, more often"
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:55:39 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: How different open, closed ...
Oleh asked in respnse to my posting:
How
can you "listen with your torso" if there is no direct torso contact? My
perception is that you follow with eyes, intuition and memorized steps. I
forgotten to add hands lead. Have I missed something?
Steve Brown wrote:
Using a softer (not limp) embrace, the lead originates in the movements of
the torso/chest. In some cases, the lead can be further transmitted by
the movements of the arms and hands that go along with the torso/chest
movement, but when dancing with an experienced woman, the arms and hands
accompany the movement. They are not necessary to initiate her movements
in any way.
This is exactly what I meant, Oleh. A good female dancer "listens with her
torso" by sensing the movements of the man's torso/chest. It is not
necessarily to be in direct physical contact with his chest to do this. If
both partners have a well developped axis, and the man does not feel he
needs to supplement a lot or, worst scenaio, almost replace the movements of
his torso with his hand and arm movements, she can very well sense in her
own body what the man is doing, and feel everyone of his movements. I can
close my eyes and still follow in open embrace.
I am no great fan of expressions like "sense the energy of the leader", as
ordinary mortals untrained in metaphysics and new age spirituality generally
do not have the foggiest what you are talking about. I had more training in
those things than I would be willing to admit in public these days, and
frankly, I still don't, really. In order to get an overwhelming "sense of
the energy" of certain men, I need at least to move in to a distance of no
more 12 centimeters or so, but this involves an entirely different level of
connection in the dance. ; )
What I am talking about, as far as the connection in lead and follow is
concerned, involves only laws of perfectly ordinary physics.
Enough for today
Astrid
>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:22:11 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: How different open, closed ...
Some semantic issues may have been at work in the discussion about the
degree of firmness required in an open embrace, and clarifying differences
in meaning is always a good thing. But I think it is likely that some
differences of opinion remain, and I consider that healthy. I am cautious
about believing that there is only one right way to do something that is
as individualistic as Argentine tango. I do not believe that we can
always boil down a discussion of technique to the one right answer. What
works well for one couple may not work well for another.
Rather than having us to try to reach agreement about what is the
best/only degree of acceptable firmness in an open embrace, I would prefer
that we acknowledge that there are and can be differences. Rather than
prescribing a particular approach as being appropriate for everyone, I
would prefer to see that people discover for themselves what works best.
Lets be open to the possibility of individualistic variation.
At the Fandango de Tango in Austin last week, a woman dancer I have known
for many years was telling me that one of the men she knows and dances
with on fairly regular basis has studied how various well-known
instructors lead the woman during a back sacada. She told me that he had
found four distinct ways of leading the back sacada among various
instructors. Of course, some students are confused when techniques vary
by instructor. Believing that there should be one correct technique
agreed to by all dancers/instructors is at the root of this confusion.
To accomodate their movements, the nuevo dancer/instructors softened the
embrace and made it more flexible than that taught/used by many of the
salon dancers. Consequently, the nuevo dancers rely more heavily on the
torso/chest communication described in many posts, and they are able to go
back and forth from close and open embrace with little or no change in the
firmness of the arms.
Many happy tangos,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:23:09 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: How different open, closed ...
For me, there is no reason to re-invent the wheel.
How firm should your torso be?, just dance with an experienced dancer in
Buenos Aires and you will find out.
In my experience, I have yet to dance with an experienced dancer (male
or female) that does not have a commanding and very firm torso.
Has anybody dance with an experienced milonguero (a) that has a weak
torso?
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 8:22 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] How different open, closed ...
Some semantic issues may have been at work in the discussion about the
degree of firmness required in an open embrace, and clarifying
differences
in meaning is always a good thing. But I think it is likely that some
differences of opinion remain, and I consider that healthy. I am
cautious
about believing that there is only one right way to do something that is
as individualistic as Argentine tango. I do not believe that we can
always boil down a discussion of technique to the one right answer.
What
works well for one couple may not work well for another.
Rather than having us to try to reach agreement about what is the
best/only degree of acceptable firmness in an open embrace, I would
prefer
that we acknowledge that there are and can be differences. Rather than
prescribing a particular approach as being appropriate for everyone, I
would prefer to see that people discover for themselves what works best.
Lets be open to the possibility of individualistic variation.
At the Fandango de Tango in Austin last week, a woman dancer I have
known
for many years was telling me that one of the men she knows and dances
with on fairly regular basis has studied how various well-known
instructors lead the woman during a back sacada. She told me that he
had
found four distinct ways of leading the back sacada among various
instructors. Of course, some students are confused when techniques vary
by instructor. Believing that there should be one correct technique
agreed to by all dancers/instructors is at the root of this confusion.
To accomodate their movements, the nuevo dancer/instructors softened the
embrace and made it more flexible than that taught/used by many of the
salon dancers. Consequently, the nuevo dancers rely more heavily on the
torso/chest communication described in many posts, and they are able to
go
back and forth from close and open embrace with little or no change in
the
firmness of the arms.
Many happy tangos,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
