2206 How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:52:30 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
Our nice milonga was not so nice over the last
weekend. Navigation, never wonderful, was at an
all-time low. We had new leaders walking against the
line of dance. We had experienced leaders pausing for
five or six measures while traffic built up behind
them, then suddenly rushing across the center of the
floor. We had experienced followers dancing with
leaders known to be unreliable - and yet throwing high
boleos instead of keeping their feet low. We had
several more leaders join the usual crowd that dances
in the middle of the floor, where they talk, "teach",
and shoot out into the line of dance unpredictably.
We had a crowd of leaders who feel deeply in touch
with the music - but who ignore the other dancers. We
had experienced leaders insist on following patterns
through to the bitter end - and then complaining about
the folks who got in their way.
This is a nice crowd of people - and many of them see
how inconvenient and unpleasant it makes it when folks
don't dance in the ronda - but somehow it just doesn't
get through to them that it is they themselves who
must do something different.
So - what is the solution? I have read on the list
about workshops in navigation: what points did the
instructors cover? What strategies have local
teachers used to teach and reinforce good navigation
skills? Who has successfully gotten an individual in
your community to dance in a more social and
responsible way - and what did you say? What can the
organizers of a milonga do if the situation has gotten
out of hand - either one day or over time?
Still rubbing the place I got kicked,
Marisa
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:38:34 -0800
From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
Navigation -- I've found that dancing a lot in crowded dance halls where
different styles were rampant and where there were a lot traffic jams was a
good learning experience. I don't complain about those dancing against the
line dance or darting into my path. I just deal with it. I've learned to
pivot, change direction, back up a bit when necessary and move around those
that are enjoying a nice pause. When someone darts into my path after
teaching in the center or sidelines, I just but on the brakes and adjust. To
me, being able to dance and navigate in an unpredictable dance environment
is all part of the fun. I learned that in a cute little place on Tarval
Street in San Francisco that was frequently packed with a lot of dancers.
But I can see that if you are a follower dancing with a leader who doesn't
navigate well, it may not be so much fun.
What can be done to make it less chaotic?
At some dance parties, directors routinely make a little speech after the
pre-dance party lesson, explaining line of dance, and explaining that spot
dancing may be done in the center of the dance hall. Some have special
practice rooms or practice dance floors where couples can go to practice and
people are encouraged to do their teaching and learning there and then move
to the dance floor for dancing (without teaching). Some teachers set up
special navigation practice sessions. In these sessions, the teacher will
deliberately step in front of a leader to give him practice is dealing with
navigation challenges. If students are properly prepared for this, it can be
excellent navigation practice.
Teaching beginners navigation skills from the very beginning, instead of
long memorized patterns also helps.
Phil Seyer
https://www.argentine-tango.com
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 10:52 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] How do you have "that talk" with your guests and
students?
> Our nice milonga was not so nice over the last
> weekend. Navigation, never wonderful, was at an
> all-time low. We had new leaders walking against the
> line of dance. We had experienced leaders pausing for
> five or six measures while traffic built up behind
> them, then suddenly rushing across the center of the
> floor. We had experienced followers dancing with
> leaders known to be unreliable - and yet throwing high
> boleos instead of keeping their feet low. We had
> several more leaders join the usual crowd that dances
> in the middle of the floor, where they talk, "teach",
> and shoot out into the line of dance unpredictably.
> We had a crowd of leaders who feel deeply in touch
> with the music - but who ignore the other dancers. We
> had experienced leaders insist on following patterns
> through to the bitter end - and then complaining about
> the folks who got in their way.
>
> This is a nice crowd of people - and many of them see
> how inconvenient and unpleasant it makes it when folks
> don't dance in the ronda - but somehow it just doesn't
> get through to them that it is they themselves who
> must do something different.
>
> So - what is the solution? I have read on the list
> about workshops in navigation: what points did the
> instructors cover? What strategies have local
> teachers used to teach and reinforce good navigation
> skills? Who has successfully gotten an individual in
> your community to dance in a more social and
> responsible way - and what did you say? What can the
> organizers of a milonga do if the situation has gotten
> out of hand - either one day or over time?
>
> Still rubbing the place I got kicked,
> Marisa
>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 21:10:17 -0500
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
Hello Marisa:
First, I suggest you teach molinetes which can be done while couples wait
for traffic to open. Second, teach the open box. This is a very
convenient figure I use to get around stopped traffic Third, make PUBLIC
announcements that the tango police will give traffic tickets to leaders
going against the line of dance. (I was at a milonga in New York where
the promoter stopped the music between tangos and made the announcement
that those "who want to do tricks" should do them in the middle of the
floor.) Fourth, teach defensive dancing. When a leader backs up into me,
he gets a elbow in the ribs, boleo, or gancho. When he turns around, I
point in the correct line of dance and say "That way. Watch where you're
going." He doesn't like it, but what can he say? I remember a woman who
loved to play submarine commander on the offending party when she was
kicked or pushed. "Bearing-Mark: Dead ahead. Range-Mark: 3 feet and
closing fast. Open outer doors on torpedo tube #2. Fire!! Direct hit!!"
On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:52:30 -0800 Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
writes:
> Our nice milonga was not so nice over the last > weekend. Navigation,
never wonderful, was at an
> all-time low. What can the > organizers of a milonga do if the
situation has gotten > out of hand - either one day or over time?
>
> Marisa
>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:35:13 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
When a leader backs up into me,
> he gets a elbow in the ribs, boleo, or gancho. When he turns around, I
> point in the correct line of dance and say "That way. Watch where you're
> going." He doesn't like it, but what can he say? I remember a woman who
> loved to play submarine commander on the offending party when she was
> kicked or pushed. "Bearing-Mark: Dead ahead. Range-Mark: 3 feet and
> closing fast. Open outer doors on torpedo tube #2. Fire!! Direct hit!!"
>
Whoa, Michael, I am discovering a whole new side of you. I used to see you
as this bashful gentleman who tells the followers:"Don't be afraid, I also
am not such a great dancer, just relax...", something along that line, if I
recall correctly.
Now you seem to suggest that a background in military training, martial arts
or plain old mud wrestling might come in handy in the open combat of a
milonga...; )
I believe that rather than encouraging and firing up a man's sense of
territory and personal space, and exchanging ideas with friends on how to
bully the bullies or intimidate the clumsy klutzes, it might be more helpful
to teach and practise all those little rock steps, weight change steps,
changes of direction, quarter turns and the like. These are needed to wait,
circumvent, avoid collisions and wriggle along inside the crowd moving
around the LOL.. If you start defending yourself with the help of high
boleos, ganchos aimed someone, or elbows jabbed into your neighbour's
ribcage, you might end up with people ramming you and crashing into you on
purpose. Nobody wants to dance in that kind of atmosphere. Besides, you
might elbow or kick a woman by mistake.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:46:40 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
I'm partially with Astrid & partially with Michael. Try diplomacy first & if
that doesn't work, speak a language that jerks understand, their own...
.
Lock & load...
Admiral Bugs
.
PS: I'm with Stephen about Pugliese & Piazolla. I would add lots & lots
of other orchestras too, to keep on playing, El Arranque, Miquel Villasboas,
Color Tango, later DeAngelis, DiSarli, Troilo, NY Tango Trio, Los Reyes de Tango,
Sexteto Canyenque, Trio Pantango, Viqencia, Cuarteto Cedron, Horacio Salgan,
Hugo Diaz, Nuevo Quinteto Real, Trio Esquina, & on & on & on...Beautiful music
for dancing Argentine Tango...
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:11:19 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
--- Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> So - what is the solution? I have read on the list
> about workshops in navigation: what points did the
> instructors cover? What strategies have local
> teachers used to teach and reinforce good navigation
> skills? Who has successfully gotten an individual
> in your community to dance in a more social and
> responsible way - and what did you say?
Navigation is something we've really tried to crack
down on this past year. We also have a major mailing
list that most people are on. We have a multi-part
solution:
- Most people here are on the same major email list,
so when we've announced events, we've also announced
rules for floorcraft in a humorous way. Every so
often we also email out relevant links. We also make
sure to give out praise after a milonga when the floor
looks nice. This makes it clear that we do have rules
for a milonga, which are supported by those attending
our milongas. This also sets a tone for other dancers
to discuss floorcraft issues.
- We have one particularly difficult student who has
wreaked havoc on the dancefloor, but he keeps trying
and he does improve. For him, we changed his basic
vocabulary (got rid of his back step) and worked with
him on technique. Everyone noticed and complimented
him, which has further encouraged him. It's on
ongoing project.
- We also regularly dance in small spaces, such as a
quaint coffee shop which encourages lots of
conversation.
- We give a lot of access to visiting instructors by
students outside of workshops. Inevitably, they all
talk about floorcraft, what it is like in B.A, etc.
- Since the teacher is ultimately responsible for what
gets taught and for shaping students minds, we try to
remind our students to be patient with those who
haven't had the same instruction that they have
received. We always give them specific things to look
for. The result has been that our students have
gently helped reform problem dancers, and they know
that we will support them.
The key, I think, is creating a really good sense of
community in which people watch out for each other and
learn to respect each other as people, not just as
dancers. I know other groups that don't have that
sense and it shows on their dancefloors.
Trini de Pittsburgh
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 20:18:38 -0500
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
I can see I created the impression of pugilism. First, my partners are
grateful that I've protected them from pain. While no one has come out on
this list and wrote it, it seems some are saying "it's better to let the
collision happen and discuss it later." Sometimes there isn't enough time
or space to get my partner out of harm's way so I have to take drastic
action. None of my partners have felt they were in a difficult social
situation. The offending leader may feel he is in a difficult social
situation but that's his problem. I don't have to go off the floor to
discuss anything. The offending leader realizes that he wasn't paying
attention to traffic.
I remember one night I was kicked with a high boleo. The woman apologized
profusely. The leader (who loves to dance show tango) criticized her in
front of my partner and me. "Watch what you're doing." I complained to
the leader it's YOUR fault. You lead the boleo." Dancing resumed.
The moment is destroyed the moment there is a collision or kick. It's not
what happens afterwards. I had partners that had to immediately sit down
because of intense pain in the ankle from a kick or a stab from a woman's
heel. I feel sorry I couldn't avoid the problem.
Michael
Washington, DC
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:02:58 -0800 Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
writes:
> --- michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM> wrote:
> > the FIRST rule for a leader is PROTECT HIS PARTNER.
>
If you've got to discuss > with him, go ahead and discuss - off the
floor. You can imagine whether I would > dance with a leader who
attacked my partner, creating > a situation in which both leaders and
both followers > are put into an incredibly difficult social situation >
and the moment is destroyed for all of us.
>
> Marisa
>
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:13:32 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
Sometimes there isn't enough time
> or space to get my partner out of harm's way so I have to take drastic
> action. The offending leader may feel he is in a difficult social
> situation but that's his problem.>
> I remember one night I was kicked with a high boleo. The woman apologized
> profusely. The leader (who loves to dance show tango) criticized her in
> front of my partner and me. "Watch what you're doing." I had partners that
had to immediately sit down
> because of intense pain in the ankle from a kick or a stab from a woman's
> heel.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
Michael, please let me know at which milongas and in which area you dance.
It sounds so horrible, I would prefer to know which places and milongas to
avoid when or if I go to the US.
And I would like to hear the opinion of others on whether milongas over
there are really such a mess.
Yes, I have been to places where you receive the occasional unintended hit
(the worst one I described in my last posting) but I have never been to a
place where people fight and insult each other while dancing.
Sincerely
Astrid in Tokyo
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 23:12:02 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
Michael wrote:
>>I can see I created the impression of pugilism. ...
>>I remember one night I was kicked with a high boleo. The woman
apologized
>>profusely. The leader (who loves to dance show tango) criticized her in
>>front of my partner and me. "Watch what you're doing."
Astrid responded:
>It sounds so horrible, I would prefer to know which places and milongas
>to avoid when or if I go to the US.
Perhaps the lack of civility in the political life of Washington, DC is
spilling over into the milongas? Maybe the city needs to be separate
milongas for Republicans and Democrats? ;-)
It's extremely rare when I have seen outright rude behavior and pugilism
at milongas in other parts of the United States. I have only danced at
two milongas in the Washington, DC area and both were so uncrowded that
even poor navigation and frozen step patterns were unlikely to generate
collisions. The rare collisions that I have seen in other parts of the
country have generally produced profuse apologies from the leaders and
followers.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 22:51:30 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
I would say, in my experience social dancing mostly in Portland & a smattering in Mpls & Seattle, that most of the time (95%+), there is plenty of room for everyone to dance & navigation is generally a non-issue. People can & do, pretty much go where they want to, when they so desire. You can hang out in the center, dance from the center to the outsides & back again, pass people, change lanes, go backwards into a corner...whatever...
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Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 12:50:31 -0500
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
Astrid:
It doesn't happen every night but when it happens I have to protect my
partner. Most dancers realize they were in error. Not wanting to admit
their error, they just move away so they don't have to apologize. All the
hits are unintended. But there's a BIG difference between a hit from
incompetence vs negligence. Incompetence means the couple doesn't have
the requisite navigation experience. Negligence means the couple has
navigation skill but decide NOT to use it and think only of themselves.
It depends on the people who show up at the milonga. It has nothing to do
with the location. Washington, DC does NOT have a monopoly on this
problem. I've seen it in New York and Denver. It's a reflection on the
couple, not the community. I don't believe the community teaches its
students "do whatever you want."
I'm convinced that a lot of the problem comes from leaders who learn some
figure and are compelled to try it, whether they understand it or not.
When leaders pay more attention to their partners and see a milonga as a
social setting and not a stage, the problem will go away.
Michael
Washington, DC
Disappointed because it doesn't look like I'm going to NY next weekend
>
> Michael, please let me know at which milongas and in which area you >
dance.> It sounds so horrible, I would prefer to know which places and >
milongas to > avoid when or if I go to the US. > And I would like to hear
the opinion of others on whether milongas > over> there are really such a
mess.
> Yes, I have been to places where you receive the occasional >
unintended hit> (the worst one I described in my last posting) but I have
never been > to a> place where people fight and insult each other while
dancing.
>
> Sincerely
> Astrid in Tokyo
>
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:16:45 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: How do you have "that talk" with your guests and students?
I do not see Astrid's comments as being about negligent dancing. I see it
as about the way that people might respond to presumed negligence.
Astrid wrote:
>I have never been to a place where people fight and insult each
>other while dancing.
--Steve (de Tejas)
