2049  How fundamental is the difference?

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:36:36 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: How fundamental is the difference?

Thank you for your explanation, Sergio. It was constructive indeed.

What I am getting from your message is that I am missing arms, which in
addition to hands and torso compose frame, preferably firm. Therefore
listening with torso in open embrace involves arms, which are attached to
torso thus torso becomes involved. I think it should be called frame
lead though more appropriate for open embrace, as opposed to torso lead
in close embrace.

Here is simple illustration of *fundamental* difference between frame and
torso lead from my own recent experience. Last Saturday I was able to dance
entire tango without arms/hands contact, leading with *direct* torso contact
doing all the steps I would normally lead in close embrace except volcada
and single axis turns. Let me ask you this question: can you do the same -
dance tango with no arms at a distance (no direct torso contact) doing all
the usual steps? Now ask your follower to close her eyes and still follow.


Cheers, Oleh K.

https://3clicksdesign.com/tango.htm

>From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
>Reply-To: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] How different ? open, closed
>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:02:06 -0500
>
>"Well. Obviously my experience with open embrace is at beginner level,
>hence
>my description of the style. However I do have a question about your last
>remark: ""Listening with her torso" is required in both ways, Oleh." How
>can you "listen with your torso" if there is no direct torso contact? My
>perception is that you follow with eyes, intuition and memorized steps. I
>forgotten to add hands lead. Have I missed something?
>
>Cheers, Oleh K."
>
>You have forgotten several things. My intention is to offer a constructive
>and respectful criticism.
>
>Tango as you described has an open and a closed embrace. You may dance the
>whole night using just the closed embrace or the open embrace (this last
>would be extremely unusual) or as most of us do when dancing what is called
>in the USA "Salon style" , use both. We dance in closed embrace at certain
>moments such as when walking or during romantic or "seduction" moves, or we
>lead the follower to open the embrace when more room between the partners
>is
>required to perform a turn or a figure.
>
>The dance is/should be improvised. This means that you do not use memorized
>figures (only beginners do/attempt to do that).
>You have in your repertoire hundreds of steps and moves that we call
>"links"
>that you link in an infinite different ways to produce the dance, according
>to your feeling, the mood and character of the music, your partner, the
>amount of available space, the other dancers, the type of milonga you are
>in, etc. The sequences are only a mere teaching devise. The steps that you
>memorize in certain order should be broken into its component "links" so
>that you can use them to dance socially. The beginner in his ignorance
>will
>attempt to repeat the whole sequence as taught with disastrous results.
>
>The variation between open and closed embrace has other implications but
>that could be the subject of another discussion.
>
>During open embrace there is no torso contact as you very well explain.
>This
>is the reason a "firm frame" is required to dance successfully and with
>ease
>in open embrace. The frame is one of the first things that should be taught
>in tango as well as the walk.
>We teach specific exercises to obtain a good frame that allows to lead with
>ease in open embrace.
>This frame actually works as an extension of the torso, so both the leader
>and the follower keep their torsos framed throughout the duration of the
>dance.
>
>Eyes and intuition?? I use my eyes to see where I am going and to respect
>the space of the other dancers. To look to the floor is a serious problem
>that has to be prevented and or corrected.
>
>Intuition is the act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of
>rational processes; immediate cognition. I agree that after dancing for a
>long time your dancing has a lot of intuition in that sense.
>
>In summary you have forgotten many things and there are even more that
>could
>be discussed after reading your note but this one is already too long.
>

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