4715  How to Tango

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:18:56 -0000
From: "John Ward" <johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: "Floyd Baker" <febaker@buffalotango.com>, "Tango-L"

Great stuff Floyd. Obviously a lot of work has gone into this and it
deserves serious study.

I had a bit of difficulty once the discussion had got to the "heavy lead". I
get the concept perfectly. A lot of ballroom teachers actively encourage
treating the lady like a recalcitrant horse, needing a metaphorical whack on
the rump with a riding crop when she doesn't do exactly what you want. But
two paragraphs after that, we are warned against allowing the follower to
"fake it".

Does this refer to adapting your own behaviour to a lady who refuses to
follow your lead? I once danced with a lady who had absolutely no sense of
rhythm and I had to dance to her random movements rather than the music.
Another partner insisted on dancing cha-cha figures exactly as she had
learned them, in the order she learned them. I accommodated myself. Is this
allowing her to fake it?

Three paragraphs later we read "Many followers . . . enjoy a heavy lead"; so
perhaps "allowing her to fake it" means indulging such followers.

Close embrace is mentioned on the Connecting and Styles pages. It might be
worth reminding leaders that one may not crush the follower to one's bosom
if she doesn't want to come close; or worse, push her away if she does; or
worst of all, ask her what she wants. And one must release her if she is
getting hot or claustrophobic and wants to pull away.

I got a bit confused again with the V embrace. Salon style had already been
described as an inverted V and I thought at first that this was the same
thing.

All this is nit-picking of course. Floyd has created an excellent site which
all should visit.

John Ward
Bristol, UK

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:10:40 -0500
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: "John Ward" <johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>



On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:18:56 -0000, you wrote:

>Great stuff Floyd. Obviously a lot of work has gone into this and it
>deserves serious study.

Twelve years worth of 'work'. :-) Thanks for giving me your take
on it. My writing may not come through as intended and it's nice to
know where it needs help.

>I had a bit of difficulty once the discussion had got to the "heavy lead". I
>get the concept perfectly. A lot of ballroom teachers actively encourage
>treating the lady like a recalcitrant horse, needing a metaphorical whack on
>the rump with a riding crop when she doesn't do exactly what you want.

>But two paragraphs after that, we are warned against allowing the follower to
>"fake it".

That's a different problem.

>Does this refer to adapting your own behaviour to a lady who refuses to
>follow your lead? I once danced with a lady who had absolutely no sense of
>rhythm and I had to dance to her random movements rather than the music.

>Another partner insisted on dancing cha-cha figures exactly as she had
>learned them, in the order she learned them. I accommodated myself.
>Is this allowing her to fake it?

I guess if you were supposed to be doing a Tango, it would be... :-)
But I think you're asking a better question. Do you think I'm
contradicting myself? I hope not and don't believe so.

Yes, you would be accomodating yourself too, if you went along with a
bad follower. You must. If only to remain a gentleman. But Tango
is already not there. It's a moot point. :-/

Btw, so I'm not misjudged... This section was written to and about
followers. I'm certainly not forgetting that leaders have their
faults too. I can swear to that in fact. <g>

We can't be 'impolite' because things are not as they should be. I
follow a follower who isn't following me. For many dances even. But
for everyone's sake, leaders should just not make a habit of going
back for more of the same..

Everyone needs to decide for themselves what to do, based on being
asked to dance or not. If they want to. True Tango is not for
everyone.

>Three paragraphs later we read "Many followers . . . enjoy a heavy lead";
>so perhaps "allowing her to fake it" means indulging such followers.

Indulge away. It's too late... <g> You're already on the floor and
not doing Tango.

When you find yourself with a follower who thinks they're a leader,
you must indulge them. Perhaps ask them to switch the frame too?
<g>

As for the other extreme, heavy lead, there are followers who want to
be pushed and leaders who push. They go together.. They enjoy each
other for their own personal satisfaction. But that way it only
takes one to tango.

The fun part comes when a want-to-be-pushed follower dances with a
no-push leader. Or better yet, the other way around. :-)

These things happen. It's how often they do that makes the real
difference. I feel that to accept them, without trying to make things
better, causes everyone to lose and Tango to be mocked.

>Close embrace is mentioned on the Connecting and Styles pages. It might be
>worth reminding leaders that one may not crush the follower to one's bosom
>if she doesn't want to come close; or worse, push her away if she does; or
>worst of all, ask her what she wants. And one must release her if she is
>getting hot or claustrophobic and wants to pull away.

I will make more of a point of that in the text...

I do mention that the lady sets the distance at the beginning of the
dance. In another area I remind both partners that the leader should
know his place, because the follower put him in there, right at the
start. :-)

>I got a bit confused again with the V embrace. Salon style had already been
>described as an inverted V and I thought at first that this was the same
>thing.

The 'Styles' page was an early attempt at putting some instruction
things together on the site. Most of it was *not* written by me and
I supply URLs and a name or two as the actual sources. I intend to
improve on this in the near future to the extent I see necessary.. But
to be honest, since I only dance my own style, I still won't try to
write much of it myself. :-/

>All this is nit-picking of course. Floyd has created an excellent site which
>all should visit.
>
>John Ward
>Bristol, UK

Many thanks John... I appreciate it very much. You'll be in the
remix... :-) If you see any more where something might be worded
better, please email me.

Floyd


Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:17:01 -0500
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu



On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:29:06 -0800, you wrote:

>"As for the other extreme, heavy lead, there are followers who want to
>be pushed and leaders who push. They go together.. They enjoy each
>other for their own personal satisfaction. But that way it only
>takes one to tango."
>
>I can dance with what you call "heavy lead". And I do enjoy it. You are very
>wrong that this way it is only takes one to tango. I assume you have no idea
>what it is about. That is why you talking so much about it, and used
>actually wrong term "heavy lead" which is has nothing to do with this sort
>of dancing.

If my term is wrong and has nothing to do with 'this kind of dancing',
please explain your version of it then. As you see it and do it...?
Maybe why it's necessary too? I'm aware I use my own terms in some
cases... Perhaps I am here too? Beyond reading the L's, I do not
have much contact with those with a large vocabulary on the subject.

>( I hope you do not suspect me for protecting those who do not
>know how to dance yet ).

But I am in fact only talking about those who do not know how to dance
yet. So I guess in a way, this discussion is already moot.

I do think we're talking about different things. I'm even pretty
sure I understand how you look at it. Tell me if I'm wrong but I
expect you see the frame as being held firm, with the follower closely
enclosed in it, to the point she 'must' come with you? Fine by me
you know? It's the 'frame', and both can Tango.

But if that's what you're talking about, I'm referring to the other
side of that fine line... The one that should not be crossed.
Leaders and followers need to learn to lead and follow as individuals.
So I'm totally ok with rewording everything to elimiate useage of
'heavy lead' if you confirm another meaning to me.. That it's not as
I have described it. I'll change my writing to "Do not horse the
lady around.". Because to me it seems the same as dancing with a
store mannikin or a blow-up doll as a partner.

I see this tendency as one of the biggest problems for new Tango
people. One I think they should avoid like the plague.

>Your writing is so arrogant and refusing to express contrary opinion that I
>should probably stay away from this discussion.

I expected flames, Igor... Flames are not a problem with me. My
opinions are just that. Mine. And I did *ask* for contrary ones
after all. Am I arrogant because I don't believe everything must be
grey? That everyone should say 'maybe' this or 'maybe' that? I
like to be more definitive, that's all. Once I've thought things
out... I do try to be right of course.

But that's where caveat emptor comes in too. I'm not one to say that
maybe Charly's ideas are better than mine. That's up to the student
(or buyer) to figure out for themselves.

I say it too, at the start of what I wrote. I tell people I'm
conveying what *I've* learned.

>It is difficult to write you, because I share many of your ideas, and I do
>not want to be looked upon like I refuse them. However I know other people
>like you. I do not believe that I can change your opionionizm, but I feel
>something has to be said.

I understand... I think you misunderstand me. Perhaps we are even
alike? Believe it or not, I do pay attention to others. I think
(most?) of what I've written should attest to that...?

>Floyd,
>You have written many interesting things, but I am sorry, it looks like you
>suffer from misunderstanding, aggressiveness and unforgiveness. Like many of
>us.

I agree we all have problems.. And Tango does bring out
individuality. :-) That's been discussed many times on the L's...

So one of us has a 'misunderstanding' I guess...

As for 'unforgiveness', I've seen a lot wrong in Tango teaching
methods and I don't accept them any more. That would be like not
caring about another's well being. I have had to go through bad
teaching myself and I recognize it for what it did not do for me. It
started on my own day one and I have wasted a lot of time since. It
just took awhile to understand how bad it was. That people take years
of going around through the back door of learning. But worse, still
ending up thinking it was the only way to go? I don't agree with
that at all.

>I have several questions for you.
>
>- Have you ever danced Argentine Tango with an advanced ballroom partner, so
>that she said "Wow!" ?

Do they? :-)

But you see? You are in an entirely different environment. I'm
trying to pass on better ways to 'learn' Tango, so one might get to
the point of doing that.

>- Have you ever "heavy" lead a beginner so that she said "Wow!"?

My version? Yes. I'm afraid so.

But I try not to now. The wow is brought on for the wrong reason.

>- Have you ever looked at distinguished Argentine Tango dancers and noticed
>a heavy forces between them playing their symphony? Do you really think they
>"heavy" lead each other?

Of course not. Not as I use the term at least.

But I do see the forces.... Leads more exagerated, quicker reaction
times, more enthusiasm, much more attention paid to the dance and to
each other.

>- Are you able to dance fast and powerful?

I'm happy with my speed and power areas, but I have a long way to go
before I'm a performer. Although I have done demo's to large
audiences. Personally I don't care for speed for speeds sake. And
too.., everyone is more or less a beginner here. It's not always
easy to put what you know into practice. Or to put practice into
what you know.

But that is not important anyway Fast and powerful or hearing wow's
are not a prerequisite to teaching beginners to Tango. One can know
something enough to pass it on to those who can do something with it.
My very first time on water skis, with no snow experience either, I
had it all worked out in my head before ever getting into the water.
The feel of the strength of the rope pulling, the angles, the tilt
that the skis would need while still under water.. I went right up
and stayed up. Only falling when I tried to ski on one leg only, or
when they boat put me ito a very forceful whip. Both of them were
only a matter of not enough muscle.

Just bragging about my 'teaching ability', you know? <g>

>- Can you put a lady on your chest and make her fly?

>- Have you ever danced Vals, the way it supposed to be: with rotation? If
>you had what do you think is the most "fun" in this dance?

The no stopping part....

But you have to cut me some slack on these thins... Eighteen months
ago there was zero Tango in my area, so for most of the 12 years I've
had little opportunity to actually physically dance Tango.., much less
to 'branch out'.

I have a bad back wife and so spent a lot of the time simply studying.
Instruction tapes, deconstructing, doing mental, and solo practice. I
used to say I was learning Tango from the inside out. It's only the
last couple of years where I've been able to really get serious in a
steady and constant manner on the floor itself.

Since then I've done a lot of improving in a more physical way. But
I'll admit the body still needs to catch up with the mind.

I am liking the Vals more and more.., but it's only been for the last
5-6 months since that interest really began. I'm working on rotation.
It's happening, but not smoothly as yet...

>- Have you ever tried to teach people who can not make a step nicely, who
>are not able to stay on one leg at all, who might have a sense of rhythm,
>but their physical abilities prevent them from expressing it?

Those who cannot step nicely...? All the time.

I've taught Tango to a man with two prosthetic clamps for hands. I've
taught Tango to 'clients' when their overseer brought them to
experience something new. I personally have a 'physical'
difficulty.., being 6' 5". I miss a lot of the 'connection' stuff
you know? Yes it should not affect my dancing but I do know what I'm
missing. And of course I've taught Tango when even I could not stand
on one foot. Just last week in fact. :-)

>- Have you ever experienced personal discomfort dancing with advanced
>dancers of "other" schools than yours?

Of course... I have written about it.

>- Do you enjoy dancing with people from other schools, communities?

Not exactly... I have written about that too.

Except for the odd individual I find at times. Those who follow new
to them moves without saying so.., and not needing to be 'shown' how
it goes first.

>Frankly, you should go through you writing and mercilessly eliminate your
>firm opinions when you judge about something which is disputable.

That's why I've asked people to say what is disputable. Else how can
I know which opnions need to be changed?

>You do not leave room to save face. Then all the good stuff you have will
>increase its usefulness.

I have asked for disputes. I'm trying to make what I write as useful
as possible, for beginners mostly. Secondly to those who are off on
the wrong foot and need to reconsider some things. I've asked for
this help... Either technical or on how to better put it across to
people in general.

You might help by describing exactly how you view 'heavy lead', and
what is happening when you are using it. At least tell me if you
disagree with my version being something that shouldn't be done? What
should I call my version if it is not the correct term. That might
actually be the answer, eh? To just call it 'horsing' the partner
around?

>Your writing suffers from "heavy lead" in your own sense.

That I agree with totally... :-) I do have my convictions...

But they always take a very long time to form.. It's not willy
nilly thought that I do. And there has to be a time when decisions
are made and stuck to. Are you not like that yourself?

My problem is communicating with others. Speaking the same
'language'. Understanding what others actually think in detail.
Except for reading the L's I haven't had the opportunity, you know?
Our area was what I sacrastically called a 'Tango Wasteland' and I've
always been rather isolated from main stream AT people. Until I
started providing free, weekly, Tango dances here in May of 2005.

So just a few things in ending... When all is said and done, I don't
want want to antagoinze any of the friends I've made through Tango.
I'm not bashing any individual for their dancing or teaching ability
in any way. I'm only passing on what I have learned over the years,

>from here and from other communities, so everyone has more to think

about.

If people feel related to, I hope they understand that if they did not
exist, I would have written the same thing anyway.. :-).

Btw... Thanks for the other stuff you've said too... That you agree
with a lot of what I've written. So we're just in a state of flux,
eh? Removing the impurities..? <g> Thanks...

>Igor

Floyd

Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:26:56 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: "Floyd Baker" <febaker@buffalotango.com>, "Igor Polk"
<ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

It all depends on whether he is leadning her with his arms or with his body.
I read that page of yours, Floyd, and it sounds to me like it was written by
a ballroom dancer. When two people dance in a parallel system or in
synchronicity rather than purely based on lead and follow as in tango, what
you say would apply. But in tango, your description and criticism sounds
like it is coming from a ballroom dancer.
I give you credit for admitting that you worked it out in your mind and
actually have rather little practice and physical experience. (But still
teach!) It sort of follows the same principles as wind surfing: you may have
it worked out in your mind but if you have not developed the dancer's
muscles to go with it, it would only work with someone you describe on your
page: who knows her steps and needs very little lead. The steps be best
agreed upon in advance. That may be the reason you don't enjoy dancing with
women from other communities.

Astrid

>
> >"As for the other extreme, heavy lead, there are followers who want to
> >be pushed and leaders who push. They go together.. They enjoy each
> >other for their own personal satisfaction. But that way it only
> >takes one to tango."
> >
> >I can dance with what you call "heavy lead". And I do enjoy it. You are

very

> >wrong that this way it is only takes one to tango. I assume you have no

idea

> >what it is about. That is why you talking so much about it, and used
> >actually wrong term "heavy lead" which is has nothing to do with this

sort

> >of dancing.
>

Tell me if I'm wrong but I

> expect you see the frame as being held firm, with the follower closely
> enclosed in it, to the point she 'must' come with you? Fine by me
> you know? It's the 'frame', and both can Tango.
>
> My very first time on water skis, with no snow experience either, I
> had it all worked out in my head before ever getting into the water.
> The feel of the strength of the rope pulling, the angles, the tilt
> that the skis would need while still under water.. I went right up
> and stayed up. Only falling when I tried to ski on one leg only, or
> when they boat put me ito a very forceful whip. Both of them were
> only a matter of not enough muscle.
>

Eighteen months

> ago there was zero Tango in my area, so for most of the 12 years I've
> had little opportunity to actually physically dance Tango.., much less
> to 'branch out'.
> Since then I've done a lot of improving in a more physical way. But
> I'll admit the body still needs to catch up with the mind.
>

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:07:21 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: "Floyd Baker" <febaker@buffalotango.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Igor: Ok, that sounds constructive.

>"As for the other extreme, heavy lead, there are followers who want to
>be pushed and leaders who push. They go together.. They enjoy each
>other for their own personal satisfaction. But that way it only
>takes one to tango."

Floyd: If my term is wrong and has nothing to do with 'this kind of
dancing',
please explain your version of it then.

Igor: I'll try, but I am just quickly answering your questions, it is by no
means established and complete.
What you might call "heavy lead" ( in relation to good dancers ) is a
combination of lead, extra energy transfer, and a play with forces between
bodies in the couple.

Little clarification:
1. Lead is never "Heavy". It is a skillful combination of body positioning,
rotations, small forces, supporting moves, and most important, ( for a
leader ) receiving constant feedback from the follower. It is a mean of
communication. It can not be heavy, because otherwise it can be confused
with :

2. "Extra energy transfer". During a lady's move she can choose to make it
without energy and with energy. If she chooses to do it with energy ( and I
can provoke it), I can add some supporting energy to her move, which makes
it more powerful and interesting. This energy flow itself can have a "shape"
in time and therefore be a dancing figure.

She does not have "to choose going with energy" to experience it. In any
way, a man can provide energy for her "carring her" in the move. Like a
baby. She flies! She makes movements easier than she would do it on her own!
Shouldn't it be pleasant!? It is still "extra energy transfer", and at the
same time lead too in the sense the lead can be applied at any moment during
this move. It can be done moving in any direction: backward, side, side in
rotation, and forward too.


3. Play with energy and forces is when me or her do something unexpected
with it. For example, I can rotate her at the end of an energetic move, or
rotate her more than she expects. There are many many dozens of ways of
play. Most simple of which is rotation of the lady in ochos by a man instead
of her doing it herself. It is very different, and can be combined with her
own rotation to produce synergetic effect so that we end up in performing a
figure noone of us planned upfront. Or produce pulsating energy flow back
and forth between us. All that is very interesting in dance.

You probably think about beginners, who for some reason believe that the
lead is pushing and pulling. That is of course wrong. All of this people, as
it seems to me, have no sense of partner, they push and pull at the wrong
moment, when she does not finish her little move. They do not lead. They
compromise the method of dancing with power, but they are very beginners and
you should not compare them and advanced dancers, who are mastering the way
of dance with energy.

With many partners, I practiced something which can be called pushing. Yes,
it is real pushing, sometimes slow, week, sometimes sharp and fast. I do it
mostly with my body, sometimes with hands. But that is the play to produce
many effects. My partners love it. And I regret that many dancers still do
not know what it is. And it looks like someone, like Floyd, thinks it is
wrong.


Some more about lead. It is possible to utilize very heavy forces for lead
too. It is when a lady artificially makes her resistance high. She can
resist me in many ways, and yes, I do have to apply force to start movement.
Then at one moment she can go like a spring. All that done skillfully is
very very interesting and pleasant... But is it still can not be called
"heavey lead". It is not heavy.

I can not continue about it. There is so much about it. Some time later, I
may summarize my experience.

Some more about it. It looks to me that there are schools who are plainly
afraid to apply even a smallest pressure to a lead contact. What can I
say... They loose so much !
=========================================================================

Floyd: Tell me if I'm wrong but I
expect you see the frame as being held firm, with the follower closely
enclosed in it, to the point she 'must' come with you? Fine by me
you know? It's the 'frame', and both can Tango.

Igor: No. May be this is a "frame" but this is not the way to lead. This is
"ballroom" frame explained to beginners. And what do you mean "must go with
you" !? It is the "heavy lead" in the worst sense !!!

Tango frame, at least in my understanding ( and not only ), is not an
enclosure. No way !!! The partner is never "framed of freedom". It is at
least(!) 2 points of contact. No matter where. At this points partners press
against each other and variations of this pressure produced clear signal.
This is the initial lead. Why two points? To lead rotations simpler. There
could be many more of these points.

Movement of these points is understood as a lead by many teachers, but this
is not the best way to do it.
Movement can be used, but not required for communication. Communication can
be done without any movement at all. That is what I call "Full Contact" lead
and follow. That allows dancing practically without moves. That allows
dancing in the most confined places.

Tango can be danced with just 2 pairs of fingers touched ( again, no need
for any enclosure ), but this way it is impossible to transmit extra energy
( see above ). Therefore we use more convenient embrace.

So here, my point of view is in opposite to yours.

Note. Dancing with beginners is very different than dancing with advanced
ladies. I do "frame them from freedom". Leading is not the only way to show
what should happen, but restricting from what should not happen. Effectively
blocking beginners from wrong moves is one of the skills a leader can
master.

=======================================================================
Floyd:

...Leaders and followers need to learn to lead and follow as individuals.
So I'm totally ok with rewording everything to elimiate useage of
'heavy lead' if you confirm another meaning to me.. That it's not as
I have described it. I'll change my writing to "Do not horse the
lady around.".

Igor: .. that is ok name, as soon you refer to beginners. But I have met
very few beginners like that. I have met several hard-core-mustang-rides who
still the way they are. Who can convince them! They do not take classes any
more. I think all teachers immediately would point out to this mistake. ( It
is still not a good name. Even a horse is horsed gentle. I do not know what
word to use. )

But in your writing you seem like you are against dancing with power at all.
That what bothers me.

(PS after everything is written. Who about "Mustang-Tamer" ? )

======================================================================
Floyd:
As for 'unforgiveness', I've seen a lot wrong in Tango teaching
methods and I don't accept them any more. That would be like not
caring about another's well being. I have had to go through bad
teaching myself and I recognize it for what it did not do for me. It
started on my own day one and I have wasted a lot of time since. It
just took awhile to understand how bad it was. That people take years
of going around through the back door of learning. But worse, still
ending up thinking it was the only way to go? I don't agree with
that at all.

Igor:
Still your rude rejection anything "ballroom" does not serve you well.
Haven't you noticed? The best new people for tango are those who have
ballroom experience. And other dancing, of course. Then go sportsmen and
sportswomen, musicians..


=========================================================================

Igor: - Have you ever danced Argentine Tango with an advanced ballroom
partner, so

>that she said "Wow!" ?

Floyd: Do they? :-)

Igor: Yes they do ! Find one and dance with her. And make her say "Wow!".
When you will be able to do it,
you will have some background to judge about "ballroom" dancers.
Sorry, quite a rude answer.

==========================================================================
Igor: - Have you ever "heavy" lead a beginner so that she said "Wow!"?

Floyd: My version? Yes. I'm afraid so.
But I try not to now. The wow is brought on for the wrong reason.

Igor: Hm.. What is so wrong about it then? It is useful.. Are you sure it
was "heavy lead" in my sense, not yours?

========================================================================
Igor - Are you able to dance fast and powerful?

Floyd: I'm happy with my speed and power areas, but I have a long way to go
before I'm a performer. Although I have done demo's to large
audiences...

Igor: Oh, it has nothing to do with performance. You should feel the power
inside!
Going to extreme speed and you enjoying how quickly you with your partner
react. Adrenaline !!!
And sometimes great forces.

( Note. Looking at many milonga dancers I have noticed they tend to dance
milonga fast. But they do it with large steps and outcome is pretty ugly.
They loose connection all the time. Unable to hold it. Sorry. Just a
straightforward opinion. They do look like pushing and pulling each other
like dolls. This is wrong. To master speed and power, first one should go to
slow and small.
This is difficult, but slow and very small steps milonga will give a key how
to make it large and fast.
This is the way I know ).

=======================================================================

Floyd: Fast and powerful or hearing wow's
are not a prerequisite to teaching beginners to Tango.

Igor: May be not a prerequisite. Though, I have met great teachers who teach
"fast and powerful" right away.
But you should not mark "fast and powerful" as the wrong dancing of
experienced couples.


=======================================================================

Floyd: ...I am liking the Vals more and more.., but it's only been for the
last
5-6 months since that interest really began. I'm working on rotation.
It's happening, but not smoothly as yet...

Igor: Ah, good ! To make the rotation smoother, I try to find that
centrifugal force, and try to keep it constant. It means the rotation is
smooth. After it is mastered, I go to acceleration in rotation, and then..
sudden stop. Whew... !

But I do not say this is the only one way to do it. As soon as it feels
nice, it is nice.


=====================================================================
Floyd: Those who cannot step nicely...? All the time.

Igor: Oh, I hope you have taught them how to keep rhythm...
Tango helps. It is forgiving. We can slowdown, or even stop at any time.
This dance is for everyone !
Even for those who like dancing fast and powerful.

PS. And the best way to civilize "mustang-tamers" is to explain them that
they still can use what they like, but done correctly. But that is just my
speculation. It might not work.


=====================================================================

>- Have you ever experienced personal discomfort dancing with advanced
>dancers of "other" schools than yours?

Of course... I have written about it.

Igor: Then you should not judge them so negatively.
You can say, "oh, they do not dance authentic tango", or "they are too old
fashioned - this is all boring stuff". That is a common skirmish between us.

But saying "he is too fast", and "he uses too much energy", and "he can lead
any beginner to "Wow" ( almost any ),therefore he can not be count as
experienced dancer. Experienced dancers dance only with one partner a night
( if they are lucky to get one ;)) )", and "ridiculous! He even like dancing
with ballroom dancers !!!" I guess is not fair.


=====================================================================
Igor:

>- Do you enjoy dancing with people from other schools, communities?

Igor: I do, if they dance..

====================================================================
Floyd:
You might help by describing exactly how you view 'heavy lead', and
what is happening when you are using it. At least tell me if you
disagree with my version being something that shouldn't be done? What
should I call my version if it is not the correct term. That might
actually be the answer, eh? To just call it 'horsing' the partner
around?

Igor: See more above. About naming. Hm... can not say it several words. I
believe it should not be mentioned at all. There is nothing to compare with.
Just people who do not know what is the lead, and what is the energy
transfer, and what is listening to a partner, and what is to do everything
in perfect time, with rhythm. There are certain ways to lead ( I know 3 ).
These are all complex processes.

I have heard a term "steering the wheel", but it might refer to something
different.

There is a term "week lead", may be you can use "overlead" ? I would use
"wrong lead". Because, any term besides "overlead", and "wrong lead" may be
associated with something useful, and therefore compromise that useful
thing. Power of words is incredible, we should use them very carefully.




=====================================================================
Floyd:
My problem is ... Speaking the same [with others] 'language'.
Understanding what others actually think in detail.
Except for reading the L's I haven't had the opportunity, you know?

Igor. That is everyone's problem. That one of the reasons we have Tango-L.
That is extremely useful for us to find the common language, eliminate
misunderstandings, and that is great that we have the Internet to help us.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If you are interested, I have some more written about it on my site:
www.virtuar.com/tango/. You will find it.
Igor.

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:22:52 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>, Tango-L <Tango-L@MIT.EDU>

Hello Floyd,

Whether you realize it or not, you are in a relatively rare
position ? that of a tango community leader. You will be
shaping a community and affecting future generations of
tangueros. You are not simply sharing your ideas, but you
are also establishing the norms for your community. This
is a responsibility that some teachers/organizers do not
realize until they end up with a community that may not be
what they originally envisioned. When it happens, they are
apt to blame the community and be blind to how their
actions built that community.

As you present your ideas via internet or classroom, I hope
you think about the type of community that you want that
goes beyond the dance skills. How do you want them to
interact? How do you want them to learn? What is the
essence of community?

Igor made reference to how opinionated your writings
appeared. I would add ?close-minded? and slightly
militant. I saw a lot of negativity. (That is based on
your webpage, not on your recent postings to Tango-L.) But
is that how you want people in your community to be? Do
you want them to be opinionated or open to new ideas? Do
you want them to be judgemental before they know anything
themselves? Do you want them to be stuck in the past or do
you want them to be in the present? Take a look at your
webpage and try to see what it tells a novice about your
community (not about tango but about the community).

We just celebrated the 5th anniversary of our tango group
and what I am most proud of is the positive culture our
community now has. The love of learning, the consideration
for beginners, the tolerance of different ideas, and the
gentle way people have of discouraging bad dancing and
encouraging good dancing. I would rather have this than a
community of super-talented dancers with no heart and no
sense of community. It?s okay to be vocal about what you
think (ask any Pittsburgher what I think and they can
probably tell you!). But I?d suggest doing so in a way
that is positive, not negative.

May your 5th anniversary be celebrating the type of
community that you want.

Trini de Pittsburgh

--- Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com> wrote:

>
> Hello all...
>
> I'd appreciate opinions on our 'How To' Tango lessons
> that are growing
> on the Buffalo Tango website.
>
> A lot of original thought has been put into them. At
> least in the
> effort to go a different way in the presentation of all
> that we've
> come to understand..., from this listserv and many other
> sources.
> There is a lot more to be covered. Along with small
> illustration
> pictures and perhaps short video demo clips being added
> too.
>
> But there's more than enough to understand what we're
> trying to do...
> I'm hoping everything is self explanatory, correct, and
> most of all
> that it's seen as an effective way for people to learn
> true
> improvisational Tango. Please let us know what you
> think.
>
> https://www.buffalotango.com/html/l_-_introduction.html
>
> Many thanks...
>
> Floyd
>
>
> Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
> * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *
>
>

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/




Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:43:27 -0500
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Cc: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>, tango-l@mit.edu


On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:26:56 +0900, you wrote:

>It all depends on whether he is leading her with his arms or with his body.

I have covered some of that too...

>I read that page of yours, Floyd, and it sounds to me like it was written by
>a ballroom dancer.

Hmmm.... Tango is the only dance I've ever done...
Other than goofing around and ' wedding' stuff.., you know?

My learning was not influenced by any other dance..

>When two people dance in a parallel system or in synchronicity rather than
>purely based on lead and follow as in tango, what you say would apply.

>But in tango, your description and criticism sounds like it is coming from
>a ballroom dancer.

Hmmm again... Not at all!

I'm afraid I don't understand the comparison either.

I don't have anything to say against ballroom. I don't do any of it
but do see, and know, many people who enjoy it. I just criticize
ballroom instructors for trying to teach AT their way.

IOW, I do know something about ballroom *methods*... My wife and I
signed up for 4 months immediately after I read the Natl. Geographic
magazine article. Then found they were teaching us something else.
Head snaps, etc. Not improv... All memorization. We hung around
until contract ended and split. Then there was the year I spent
teaching the ballroom instructor AT. A lot rubbed off during that
period, for sure. Along with gaining other insight over time, one
comes to understand the differences.

>I give you credit for admitting that you worked it out in your mind and
>actually have rather little practice and physical experience. (But still
>teach!)

Why not...? I don't buy into the Peter principal... I 'teach' to
the level I am good at. I hold workshops with good, imported, AT
instructors for whatever is beyond my ability.

My Tango education was different perhaps, but I have done constant
study over the years. Working out loose ends presented by various
instructors. I danced when I could. Took in workshops in nearby
cities. The L's has been active on my computer for 12 years. And so
on.

I admit to not being an 'advanced' physical dancer... My age is
probably the only factor against my getting to be one. Especially
since I'm very happy doing what I'm doing now. Promoting it for
others. Holding weekly dances and occasional workshops. I dance very
well and I'm happy to improve as those around me improve. I'll stay
ahead of them of course. :-)

Actually physical ability doesn't enter into 'understanding' Tango
anyway. That would be putting the cart before the horse.

>It sort of follows the same principles as wind surfing: you may have
>it worked out in your mind but if you have not developed the dancer's
>muscles to go with it.

That's where teaching myself to water ski comes in then... Because it
worked. I could do it first time by just understanding it. The
muscle part failed when I went to the extreme right away and tried to
do it on one leg only... That was awhile ago of course. Today I
would know better. :-) But it was the equivalent to trying to get
to the Tango level of Montreal or Miami in one class... Not going
to happen... But I do know *how* to get there.

>it would only work with someone you describe on your
>page: who knows her steps and needs very little lead.

Sorry. I guess it's a matter of semantics. But I don't think what
you just said is even Tango. At last as I read it. There are no
steps for a follower to 'know', are there?

>The steps be best agreed upon in advance. That may be the
>reason you don't enjoy dancing with women from other communities.

You're quite right. But it's not I who want the steps agreed upon in
advance. It's the followers. And who's fault is that? The
instructors who teach patterns instead of an ability to follow.

Some followers do not know some of the patterns or moves that I do.
They do not follow the leads. And it's their job to follow. Not to
agree with the moves first, eh? You know there is a lot said about
leaders needing to let the lady enjoy herself and to not 'teach'....
To accept it when they do not respond exactly as expected.... But
there is not much thought about, the other way around... That the
followers should let the leaders lead in peace too.., and that the
follower should not always stop them to ask for demonstratons, on
something that is new to them.. Just do your best, eh? :-)

But 'new' moves tend to throw some follower, and they stop to ask to
see the entire move before they can do it. Not bothering to simply
follow the lead. Which is there btw. Or they should just have
stopped and waited for one.

As you say.., when dancing with them the steps are best agreed upon in
advance. I have to learn what they can do... :-<

>Astrid

Anyway... Enough of me... I'm not important. What is important is
whether what I have on the 'How To' pages is good..., or not. What
should not be there... How can it be made better?

Many thanks for the thoughts Astrid.

Floyd

>> >"As for the other extreme, heavy lead, there are followers who want to
>> >be pushed and leaders who push. They go together.. They enjoy each
>> >other for their own personal satisfaction. But that way it only
>> >takes one to tango."
>> >
>> >I can dance with what you call "heavy lead". And I do enjoy it. You are
>> >very wrong that this way it is only takes one to tango. I assume you
>> >have no idea what it is about. That is why you talking so much about it,
>> >and used actually wrong term "heavy lead" which is has nothing to do
>> >with this sort of dancing.
>>
>> Tell me if I'm wrong but I expect you see the frame as being held firm,
>> with the follower closely enclosed in it, to the point she 'must' come
>> with you? Fine by me you know? It's the 'frame', and both can Tango.
>>
>> My very first time on water skis, with no snow experience either, I
>> had it all worked out in my head before ever getting into the water.
>> The feel of the strength of the rope pulling, the angles, the tilt
>> that the skis would need while still under water.. I went right up
>> and stayed up. Only falling when I tried to ski on one leg only, or
>> when they boat put me ito a very forceful whip. Both of them were
>> only a matter of not enough muscle.
>>
>> Eighteen months ago there was zero Tango in my area, so for most
>>of the 12 years I've had little opportunity to actually physically dance
>>Tango.., much less to 'branch out'.
>> Since then I've done a lot of improving in a more physical way. But
>> I'll admit the body still needs to catch up with the mind.
>>
>
>

Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:52:12 -0500
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:22:52 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>Hello Floyd,
>
>Whether you realize it or not, you are in a relatively rare
>position ? that of a tango community leader. You will be
>shaping a community and affecting future generations of
>tangueros. You are not simply sharing your ideas, but you
>are also establishing the norms for your community. This
>is a responsibility that some teachers/organizers do not
>realize until they end up with a community that may not be
>what they originally envisioned. When it happens, they are
>apt to blame the community and be blind to how their
>actions built that community.

I realize all of that. About the only worry I have right now is
that something I write here or in the 'How To' pages be taken
personally and negatively by any of the individuals who have become my
friends through Tango.

My thoughts come from 12 years and other cities too... So I hope
everyone knows that if they in particular didn't exist at all, I would
still have written the same thing. No one is to 'blame' for anything
negative. It's the way things go. Re bad instruction, dancing, and
the like... So many people want to get into the act before they know
what they're doing. The 'How To' is for everyone to have some common
reference point. Others have done their version. I can do mine,
eh?

So in fact I am trying to establish norms...

What you need to tell me is where I am wrong with what I have written.
That's what is most important and all I've asked for. What more
should I do? I want good methods put into what is taught in this
area most of all... If it does others some good elsewhere then all
the better. If what I have in black and white is found to be good by
the world, it will obviously go a long way towards that end.. So
please confirm or condem the writing in whatever way you wish.

But trust that I'm personally doing the best for our community, based
on what I know of the people here and what needs doing. I want
everyone to know the 'right' way. I figured with us coming into the
picture more than a decade behind most other communities.., we should
have a lot of the road already paved for us. We should not have to
reinvent the wheel, eh?

>As you present your ideas via internet or classroom, I hope
>you think about the type of community that you want that
>goes beyond the dance skills.

Why?

Just kidding... ;->

>How do you want them to interact?

I just want them to....

>How do you want them to learn?

>>From *experienced* AT instructors...

>What is the essence of community?

Everyone thinking the same.

I do think about it.

>Igor made reference to how opinionated your writings
>appeared. I would add ?close-minded? and slightly
>militant. I saw a lot of negativity. (That is based on
>your webpage, not on your recent postings to Tango-L.) But
>is that how you want people in your community to be?

>Do you want them to be opinionated or open to new ideas?

I want them to be opiniated.

They can have new ideas once they know how to Tango and the followers
tell leaders not to push them around. Until they get to the level of
Igor and learn where it *needs* to be done of course..

>Do you want them to be judgemental before they know anything
>themselves?

Who are they supposed to learn from?

>Do you want them to be stuck in the past or do
>you want them to be in the present? Take a look at your
>webpage and try to see what it tells a novice about your
>community (not about tango but about the community).

I don't want them to be swayed by people who have been around less
than a year. Or anyone who has less than altruistic aims.

You seem to be condeming me for something. Please be specific.
Is there something in the 'How To' that is not correct...?

My 'attitude' is just me. It can be accepted or not. I am sardonic,
sarcastic, dedicated, honest, direct, and a lot of other stuff that
most people can't handle at first. But it's all done in good faith
and good humor.

Overall, I try to make up for my faults by doing more good than bad.

>We just celebrated the 5th anniversary of our tango group
>and what I am most proud of is the positive culture our
>community now has. The love of learning, the consideration
>for beginners, the tolerance of different ideas, and the
>gentle way people have of discouraging bad dancing and
>encouraging good dancing. I would rather have this than a
>community of super-talented dancers with no heart and no
>sense of community. It?s okay to be vocal about what you
>think (ask any Pittsburgher what I think and they can
>probably tell you!). But I?d suggest doing so in a way
>that is positive, not negative.
>
>May your 5th anniversary be celebrating the type of
>community that you want.
>
>Trini de Pittsburgh

I don't know where you're getting the idea that we don't have those
nice facets here in our community too... We're the City of Good
Neighbors after all. :-) We are going less than two years now. I
have nearly 500 email addresses in the newsletter email list and there
were just under 900 unique visitors to the web site in December.
Another regular (monthly) dance venue started in December... We have
a practica on Wednesday, Thursday and Saturdays in three different
locations. We have put on at least 10 workshops in the last year,
including the festival with Daniel Trenner and Anne Sophis Ville...
There is much more coming in the new year...

I'm very happy with the way things are going.

Thanks for the guidance advice Trini, but you know I'll never
change... ;->

But I do like to be right, accurate and correct with what I put forth.
So anything specifically wrong with the 'How To' pages would be
greatly appreciated.

Many thanks...

Hugs.

Floyd

>--- Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello all...
>>
>> I'd appreciate opinions on our 'How To' Tango lessons
>> that are growing
>> on the Buffalo Tango website.
>>
>> A lot of original thought has been put into them. At
>> least in the
>> effort to go a different way in the presentation of all
>> that we've
>> come to understand..., from this listserv and many other
>> sources.
>> There is a lot more to be covered. Along with small
>> illustration
>> pictures and perhaps short video demo clips being added
>> too.
>>
>> But there's more than enough to understand what we're
>> trying to do...
>> I'm hoping everything is self explanatory, correct, and
>> most of all
>> that it's seen as an effective way for people to learn
>> true
>> improvisational Tango. Please let us know what you
>> think.
>>
>> https://www.buffalotango.com/html/l_-_introduction.html
>>
>> Many thanks...
>>
>> Floyd
>>
>>
>> Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
>> * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *
>>
>>
>
>
>PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
>Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
>https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
>
>
>
>
>Bored stiff? Loosen up...
>Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.

Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:14:55 -0500
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu


On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:07:21 -0800, you wrote:

>Igor: Ok, that sounds constructive.

<snip>

>Igor: I'll try, but I am just quickly answering your questions, it is by no
>means established and complete.

>What you might call "heavy lead" ( in relation to good dancers )

I was never referring to 'good dancers'.

>is a combination of lead, extra energy transfer, and a play with forces between
>bodies in the couple.

I understand that... I saw it last, in person, here in Buffalo, when
Daniel Trenner and Anne Sophie Ville were dancing.

>Little clarification:
>1. Lead is never "Heavy". It is a skillful combination of body positioning,
>rotations, small forces, supporting moves, and most important, ( for a
>leader ) receiving constant feedback from the follower. It is a mean of
>communication. It can not be heavy, because otherwise it can be confused
>with :

It seems the difference came from my term... In what I called 'heavy
lead'.. For what I'm talking about, what else is it. 'Strong' has
been mentioned and that is a more positive connotation, eh? I have
always referred to 'heavy' lead in a negative sense. I have defined
this term which I actually thought was my own term.., in a negative
way. I don't understand the problem with knowing it's wrong to do..,
as described.., for the reasons given...

I'm not disagreeing with what good dancers do.

>2. "Extra energy transfer". During a lady's move she can choose to make it
>without energy and with energy. If she chooses to do it with energy ( and I
>can provoke it), I can add some supporting energy to her move, which makes
>it more powerful and interesting. This energy flow itself can have a "shape"
>in time and therefore be a dancing figure.

For now I'll say that I understand the concept and accept it, as done
by advanced dancers. Certainly not nearly as well by me as you..,
but maybe we should start all over with what we're talking about.

I made a claim that some new and learning followers stop learning,
when they find that some leaders push them to where they want them to
be.. So the followers stop trying to learn to follow and expect to be
shoved into position.

Should I not call pushing and shoving the lady, 'heavy leading'..,
when she doesn't want to move on her own? That's all I'm asking
about...

>She does not have "to choose going with energy" to experience it. In any
>way, a man can provide energy for her "carring her" in the move. Like a
>baby. She flies! She makes movements easier than she would do it on her own!
>Shouldn't it be pleasant!? It is still "extra energy transfer", and at the
>same time lead too in the sense the lead can be applied at any moment during
>this move. It can be done moving in any direction: backward, side, side in
>rotation, and forward too.

You are talking about very good followers who are actually doing their
part, their own moves and putting themselves into the dance.. I'm
way back at the other end of the scale you know? Where the leader
pushes a follower around because she doesn't know how to, or even
wants to, bother following a lead by herself. The discussion is
going way to far afield...

>3. Play with energy and forces is when me or her do something unexpected
>with it. For example, I can rotate her at the end of an energetic move, or
>rotate her more than she expects. There are many many dozens of ways of
>play. Most simple of which is rotation of the lady in ochos by a man instead
>of her doing it herself. It is very different, and can be combined with her
>own rotation to produce synergetic effect so that we end up in performing a
>figure noone of us planned upfront. Or produce pulsating energy flow back
>and forth between us. All that is very interesting in dance.

I understand this fine...

>You probably think about beginners, who for some reason believe that the
>lead is pushing and pulling. That is of course wrong. All of this people, as
>it seems to me, have no sense of partner, they push and pull at the wrong
>moment, when she does not finish her little move. They do not lead. They
>compromise the method of dancing with power, but they are very beginners and
>you should not compare them and advanced dancers, who are mastering the way
>of dance with energy.

Now you're with me... But I certainly never did compare these new
dancers, and I might include 'ballroom method' instructors, with
advanced A/Tango dancers. My 'How To' is mostly for newbies and to
correct bad habits of those who have been around but gotten bad
instruction... It simply tells followers not to let the leader push
them around. To move under their own power, direction, and balance,
depending on the 'very subtle' leads they receive. That one can in
fact dance fairly well without touching at all... So! NO pushing
allowed... Nothing meant more than that, at the beginner level...

If the term 'heavy lead' is used nicely on another experience level, I
can change it in the 'How To'. But I expect still that it is the
term 'strong lead' that is used up there...

>With many partners, I practiced something which can be called pushing. Yes,
>it is real pushing, sometimes slow, week, sometimes sharp and fast. I do it
>mostly with my body, sometimes with hands. But that is the play to produce
>many effects. My partners love it. And I regret that many dancers still do
>not know what it is. And it looks like someone, like Floyd, thinks it is
>wrong.

That remains to be seen. We've been talking apples and oranges for
the most part.

>Some more about lead. It is possible to utilize very heavy forces for lead
>too. It is when a lady artificially makes her resistance high. She can
>resist me in many ways, and yes, I do have to apply force to start movement.
>Then at one moment she can go like a spring. All that done skillfully is
>very very interesting and pleasant... But is it still can not be called
>"heavey lead". It is not heavy.

I don't call it 'heavy lead'... I call *heavy* lead, 'heavy lead'...

>I can not continue about it. There is so much about it. Some time later, I
>may summarize my experience.

I'll offer you space on my website pages if you do Igor... Under
'Advanced' teachings... :-)

But of course I do know you have your own site too...

>Some more about it. It looks to me that there are schools who are plainly
>afraid to apply even a smallest pressure to a lead contact. What can I
>say... They loose so much !
>=========================================================================
>
>Floyd: Tell me if I'm wrong but I
>expect you see the frame as being held firm, with the follower closely
>enclosed in it, to the point she 'must' come with you? Fine by me
>you know? It's the 'frame', and both can Tango.
>
>Igor: No. May be this is a "frame" but this is not the way to lead. This is
>"ballroom" frame explained to beginners. And what do you mean "must go with
>you" !? It is the "heavy lead" in the worst sense !!!

My 'must' was in quotes. But it was referring to a good follower
who will know that she should, will not consider other directions to
go in, and will be doing it willingly... Not a heavy lead at all...
Just 'close embrace' kind of 'must'.

>Tango frame, at least in my understanding ( and not only ), is not an
>enclosure. No way !!! The partner is never "framed of freedom". It is at
>least(!) 2 points of contact. No matter where. At this points partners press
>against each other and variations of this pressure produced clear signal.
>This is the initial lead. Why two points? To lead rotations simpler. There
>could be many more of these points.
>
>Movement of these points is understood as a lead by many teachers, but this
>is not the best way to do it.
>Movement can be used, but not required for communication. Communication can
>be done without any movement at all. That is what I call "Full Contact" lead
>and follow. That allows dancing practically without moves. That allows
>dancing in the most confined places.
>
>Tango can be danced with just 2 pairs of fingers touched ( again, no need
>for any enclosure ), but this way it is impossible to transmit extra energy
>( see above ). Therefore we use more convenient embrace.

I have written about this too... Dancing without touching at all in
fact.

>So here, my point of view is in opposite to yours.

I don't see anything you have said as being opposite to mine...

>Note. Dancing with beginners is very different than dancing with advanced
>ladies. I do "frame them from freedom". Leading is not the only way to show
>what should happen, but restricting from what should not happen. Effectively
>blocking beginners from wrong moves is one of the skills a leader can
>master.

>=======================================================================
>Floyd:
>
>...Leaders and followers need to learn to lead and follow as individuals.
>So I'm totally ok with rewording everything to elimiate useage of
>'heavy lead' if you confirm another meaning to me.. That it's not as
>I have described it. I'll change my writing to "Do not horse the
>lady around.".
>
>Igor: .. that is ok name, as soon you refer to beginners. But I have met
>very few beginners like that. I have met several hard-core-mustang-rides who
>still the way they are. Who can convince them! They do not take classes any
>more. I think all teachers immediately would point out to this mistake. ( It
>is still not a good name. Even a horse is horsed gentle. I do not know what
>word to use. )

Grin... You seem to me to have come into Tango in an already
advanced area.., where instructors are most likely way above beyond it
too. Everyone should be so lucky.

>But in your writing you seem like you are against dancing with power at all.
>That what bothers me.

Not at all... Not at all...

>(PS after everything is written. Who about "Mustang-Tamer" ? )
>
>======================================================================
>Floyd:
>As for 'unforgiveness', I've seen a lot wrong in Tango teaching
>methods and I don't accept them any more. That would be like not
>caring about another's well being. I have had to go through bad
>teaching myself and I recognize it for what it did not do for me. It
>started on my own day one and I have wasted a lot of time since. It
>just took awhile to understand how bad it was. That people take years
>of going around through the back door of learning. But worse, still
>ending up thinking it was the only way to go? I don't agree with
>that at all.
>
>Igor:
>Still your rude rejection anything "ballroom" does not serve you well.
>Haven't you noticed? The best new people for tango are those who have
>ballroom experience. And other dancing, of course. Then go sportsmen and
>sportswomen, musicians..

I would say it is because anyone interested in dancing would be apt to
go into ballroom immediately... Ergo, they are coming from ballroom
when they learned to drop it in favor of Tango... Which is what
happens a lot now days, you know? But you can't give ballroom the
credit for them being good at Tango... They may in fact have been
even better if they came straight into Tango...

>=========================================================================
>
>Igor: - Have you ever danced Argentine Tango with an advanced ballroom
>partner, so
>>that she said "Wow!" ?
>
>Floyd: Do they? :-)
>
>Igor: Yes they do ! Find one and dance with her. And make her say "Wow!".
>When you will be able to do it,
>you will have some background to judge about "ballroom" dancers.
>Sorry, quite a rude answer.

Not a problem... Mine was too...

>==========================================================================
>Igor: - Have you ever "heavy" lead a beginner so that she said "Wow!"?
>
>Floyd: My version? Yes. I'm afraid so.
>But I try not to now. The wow is brought on for the wrong reason.
>
>Igor: Hm.. What is so wrong about it then? It is useful.. Are you sure it
>was "heavy lead" in my sense, not yours?

Yes... It was in my sense of the term'... I was 'helping' the student
in front of others. Just to keep her from feeling she was looking
dumb you know? ?? But now I try to not put them up there in front
of others as quickly as I have in the past..

>========================================================================
>Igor - Are you able to dance fast and powerful?
>
>Floyd: I'm happy with my speed and power areas, but I have a long way to go
>before I'm a performer. Although I have done demo's to large
>audiences...
>
>Igor: Oh, it has nothing to do with performance. You should feel the power
>inside!
>Going to extreme speed and you enjoying how quickly you with your partner
>react. Adrenaline !!!
>And sometimes great forces.

I love adrenaline. :-)

>( Note. Looking at many milonga dancers I have noticed they tend to dance
>milonga fast. But they do it with large steps and outcome is pretty ugly.
>They loose connection all the time. Unable to hold it. Sorry. Just a
>straightforward opinion. They do look like pushing and pulling each other
>like dolls. This is wrong. To master speed and power, first one should go to
>slow and small.
>This is difficult, but slow and very small steps milonga will give a key how
>to make it large and fast.
>This is the way I know ).

I think I'll stick to slow and small for a long time to come... Three
in a row knocks me out now. Ha!

>=======================================================================
>
>Floyd: Fast and powerful or hearing wow's
>are not a prerequisite to teaching beginners to Tango.
>
>Igor: May be not a prerequisite. Though, I have met great teachers who teach
>"fast and powerful" right away.
>But you should not mark "fast and powerful" as the wrong dancing of
>experienced couples.

Never... It has to be one of their signatures in fact..

>=======================================================================
>
>Floyd: ...I am liking the Vals more and more.., but it's only been for the
>last 5-6 months since that interest really began. I'm working on rotation.
>It's happening, but not smoothly as yet.
>
>Igor: Ah, good ! To make the rotation smoother, I try to find that
>centrifugal force, and try to keep it constant. It means the rotation is
>smooth. After it is mastered, I go to acceleration in rotation, and then..
>sudden stop. Whew... !
>
>But I do not say this is the only one way to do it. As soon as it feels
>nice, it is nice.

I'll work on that. Thanks for the tip. My interest was sparked by
watching Diego DiFalco and Carolina Zokalski. Who would you suggest
in additon to them? They will be in Ithaca for a workshop soon btw.
I'll be there....

>=====================================================================
>Floyd: Those who cannot step nicely...? All the time.
>
>Igor: Oh, I hope you have taught them how to keep rhythm...
>Tango helps. It is forgiving. We can slowdown, or even stop at any time.
>This dance is for everyone !
>Even for those who like dancing fast and powerful.
>
>PS. And the best way to civilize "mustang-tamers" is to explain them that
>they still can use what they like, but done correctly. But that is just my
>speculation. It might not work.

I'm trying another approach... That the followers read what I am
writing and learn it isn't the real way to go... Then to perhaps
tell the Mustang Tamers directly not to do it.. <g>

>=====================================================================
>>- Have you ever experienced personal discomfort dancing with advanced
>>dancers of "other" schools than yours?
>
>Of course... I have written about it.
>
>Igor: Then you should not judge them so negatively.
>You can say, "oh, they do not dance authentic tango", or "they are too old
>fashioned - this is all boring stuff". That is a common skirmish between us.
>
>But saying "he is too fast", and "he uses too much energy", and "he can lead
>any beginner to "Wow" ( almost any ),therefore he can not be count as
>experienced dancer. Experienced dancers dance only with one partner a night
>( if they are lucky to get one ;)) )", and "ridiculous! He even like dancing
>with ballroom dancers !!!" I guess is not fair.

Well, that's not what I wrote.. The problem I see is that every
community seems to learn a certain number of patterns and become used
to doing them.. This is caused by the teachers teaching those
patterns. And not teaching how to follow the lead.. So one might
follow any pattern...

The patterns should be left to the leader alone...

>=====================================================================
>Igor:
>>- Do you enjoy dancing with people from other schools, communities?
>Igor: I do, if they dance..

Yes... There are some who do. :-)

>====================================================================
>Floyd:
>You might help by describing exactly how you view 'heavy lead', and
>what is happening when you are using it. At least tell me if you
>disagree with my version being something that shouldn't be done? What
>should I call my version if it is not the correct term. That might
>actually be the answer, eh? To just call it 'horsing' the partner
>around?
>
>Igor: See more above. About naming. Hm... can not say it several words. I
>believe it should not be mentioned at all. There is nothing to compare with.
>Just people who do not know what is the lead, and what is the energy
>transfer, and what is listening to a partner, and what is to do everything
>in perfect time, with rhythm. There are certain ways to lead ( I know 3 ).
>These are all complex processes.

Forcing does exist for sure.

As confirmed by others in this thread who understood what I was
talking about.

The usual scenario is this. The instructor said if she does not move
correctly you give her a heavier lead. That is not what you think he
might have meant, Igor... Because the student is brand new and this
instructor doesn't know a lead from a tow truck. He just switches to
the tow truck method. And of course he then thinks he's a great
instructor because the folllower is now in the right place... :-)

Now I'm not specifically downing any Buffalo instructors, ok? Just
the bad ones wherever they might be. There are a few of them out
there. I would like followers to know this is not good for them
and to not allow it...

>I have heard a term "steering the wheel", but it might refer to something
>different.

>There is a term "week lead", may be you can use "overlead" ? I would use
>"wrong lead". Because, any term besides "overlead", and "wrong lead" may be
>associated with something useful, and therefore compromise that useful
>thing. Power of words is incredible, we should use them very carefully.

Hmm.. Are you ok with 'heavy' being the negative (my description),
and 'strong' being positive (your description)? With explanation? I
can make a big point of this distinction.

And when you 'summarize' I will link directly to it too... :-)

>=====================================================================
>Floyd:
>My problem is ... Speaking the same [with others] 'language'.
>Understanding what others actually think in detail.
>Except for reading the L's I haven't had the opportunity, you know?
>
>Igor. That is everyone's problem. That one of the reasons we have Tango-L.
>That is extremely useful for us to find the common language, eliminate
>misunderstandings, and that is great that we have the Internet to help us.

Totally agree... Nice talking this stuff out too...


Floyd...

>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>If you are interested, I have some more written about it on my site:
>www.virtuar.com/tango/. You will find it.
>Igor.

Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 19:55:52 -0700
From: bmichlig@usamontana.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Well, I am quite hesitant to post anything at all about anything at all on the list, being
as I have not yet had the opportunity to actually dance (but do read the list
voraciously, have for quite some time, and really want to learn to dance, and dance
well, given the constraints of time, money and location, the last being where there. is.
no. tango. at all.). But reading all the posts and responses has really got me thinking.

If I am new to tango, which I am, and looking for information, guidance, help,
instruction, experience, and even dances, and came across your site, I would, in all
honesty, seriously question my own sanity for wanting to do something so fraught
with infinite peril. What if I do it wrong? Accidentally learn from the wrong videos or
the wrong teachers? Need a more aggressive lead sometimes, or conversely wish
for a more responsive lead who can read what I'd like to do, and then "let" me do it?
Would I be shunned, shined on, dismissed or ignored? What if, with my limited
verbal and dance vocabularies, I am unable to communicate clearly - this is, in fact, a
given. I would anticipate, based on what I have read at your site, that the
consequences would be rather severe.

Floyd, I mean no harm or disrespect at all - and I am so glad that you have devoted
considerable time and energy and passion to getting all the thoughts out there, in
order to benefit us all. I truly sense a genuine care for what you do. And still, if I came
across your site, I'd probably look elsewhere for community. And I'd do so not
because the information you posted was incorrect or false or misleading, but rather
because of the tone.

It is such a difficult thing to communicate humor, especially one that could be
described as sardonic, in writing. All the winks and smiles and emoticons in the world
cannot really get that across. So the reader has only the plain old words to depend
on for everything - the facts, the nuance, the belief and the likely emotional state of
the writer are all captured in the words, for better or worse.

I would be frightened. I would be frightened enough to look for a different place,
group, website.

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but I thought that I'd tentatively offer up a
real, true "beginner's mind" sort of take on the thing.

Now, above all, one must be true to one's own heart and vision and passion. So, no
matter what anyone (most especially me) says, do that. But first decide if the image
you are presenting is the one that will really serve your own heart and vision and
passion the best.

With utmost respect and thanks -
Bridget in Montana.

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 23:32:04 -0500
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: febaker@buffalotango.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Hi Floyd,

I went to your website and started to read your "how to tango" section. I've
learned over the years to keep my opinions to myself, but since you asked
for feedback, I'll give you mine about some parts of your treatise.

The first thing I noticed is that you said that most tango teachers don't
know what they are doing. While it's possible that you might be right, it's
an unnecessarily insulting comment about all the other teachers out there.
Secondly, I read a lot of criticism and disparaging remarks about ballroom
dancing teachers and their methods. Again, I find that gratuitously
offensive. I don't know about other communities, but here in Atlanta there
are no ballroom teachers teaching Argentine tango. At times some teachers
might have tried, but there are so many Argentine Tango teachers around that
it would be a huge waste of time for the ballroomers to get involved. In
other words, at least in Atlanta the threat to the purity of Argentine Tango
by ballroom teachers is a non issue. Besides, I've gotten to know many
ballroom dancers and teachers over the years, and I found many of them to be
nice people, gracious, generous and respectful of the Argentine Tango.

While your comments about tango are mostly true and accurate, they come
accross as judgemental and presumptuous. Also, there is no need to put down
Salsa either. I don't understand why you find it necessary to slam Salsa. I
personally love to dance Salsa and I find it to be as challenging and
rewarding as tango when done to the right music with the right partner.

As you say, tango is all about the lead and follow. However, there are many
ways to impart this knowledge to people. Teaching them certain movements and
techniques is perfectly fine and should not be criticized. We've been
teaching and dancing for over 13 years and have had great success turning
out very good dancers by using many different teaching tools, including the
D8CB. Also, your analogy of tango and tennis might be a good one, but tango
could also be compared to downhill skiing, basketball, racketball or any
other number of sport activities. Sure they are done without much thinking
and rather fluidly and naturally. However, these activities are like tango
in that they must be learned and require a lot of skill and practice before
they can be done effortlessly. Anyway, leading and following are skills that
must be learned and developed. The natural born tango dancer is a rare
thing. There is no miracle "one lesson" system to teach it and it's a rare
follower who can actually follow even the simplest lead if they are totally
inexperienced.

I appreciate the effort you've put into this page and the obvious love you
have for tango. I can also simpathize with your desire to break through and
find a sure fire, simple way to teach people to really dance tango. Still,
you might want to go back and look over your writings. Perhaps it would help
if you try to put yourself into the place of your reader. Please consider
who this reader might be... Perhaps another teacher, maybe a ballroom dancer
or teacher... How about a Salsa dancer or swing dancer who's heard about
Argentineinte tango.... Maybe just some person who knows nothing about tango
and precious little about dance in any form. To some of these people your
words might be off-putting if not downright offensive. Maybe it's good to
remember the old adage about attracting more flies with honey than with
vinegar......

Cheers,

Manuel



visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com

Get in the mood for Valentine's Day. View photos, recipes and more on your
Live.com page.
https://www.live.com/?addTemplate=ValentinesDay&ocid=T001MSN30A0701

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:58:38 EST
From: Euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango


Floyd,

I will respond to your beginning. I have read most of the responses and
opinions. As the thread progressed I decided not to read your web site until I
reach a point where I was seeing a pattern. Then I would read what you wrote
and see if the comments were in line with the pattern.

First, nice job in organizing and laying out your ideas and your
interpretation of Tango. Second, for the most part I agree, not that that means
anything, but I find the underlying information valid and valuable. However, I think
your negative generalizations of preconceived stereotypes, like ballroom
instructors, majority of Argentine Tango Teachers don't know what there are
doing, etc., and pardon me for paraphrasing, but they cloud my acceptance of your
facts. If I did not have some experience and accept the fact that Tango has
not set requirement for patterns, everything can be changed at anytime
depending on circumstances, I would have certainly move on from your site and missed
the value.

I understand that you clearly, albeit, negatively laid out your approach and
bias, nevertheless I believe that most people looking to learn something
don't want to sift through the opinions all the time. It might be better to
state your points and assumptions and then proceed to provide clear and unbiased
instruction points, maybe breaking it up with an editorial sidebar if you
must.

I think you miss, seem to or ignore :) the background of most people that
choose to learn AT or any dance. The want to learn something or they are being
told they want to learn something (by a significant other). They need to leave
a class that they can repeat. The 8CB is something repeatable. Maybe it is
better said as you teach this it is only for the purpose providing you with a
beginning point and that it is not set in stone. Things change and Tango is
a dance of improvisation, beginning one with each other in concert with the
music. But the point is that people who take lessons need to believe they
are learning something. If they become bored they leave. A long learning curve
leaves only the hardy at the end of the day. That may be the object of AT
but I don't think so.

Finally, I agree with Bridget in Montana and with Manuel, its the tone that
is the downside, not being "outspoken" with the right placement I believe it
adds value. Heaven forbid that anyone on the 'L' be considered outspoken or
opinionated it never happens :).

In any case,
Just some thoughts

Bill in Seattle

PS Thanks for the hard work and the openness to ask and take comments.

In a message dated 1/16/2007 9:28:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
febaker@buffalotango.com writes:


Hello all...

I'd appreciate opinions on our 'How To' Tango lessons that are growing
on the Buffalo Tango website.

A lot of original thought has been put into them. At least in the
effort to go a different way in the presentation of all that we've
come to understand..., from this listserv and many other sources.
There is a lot more to be covered. Along with small illustration
pictures and perhaps short video demo clips being added too.

But there's more than enough to understand what we're trying to do...
I'm hoping everything is self explanatory, correct, and most of all
that it's seen as an effective way for people to learn true
improvisational Tango. Please let us know what you think.

https://www.buffalotango.com/html/l_-_introduction.html

Many thanks...

Floyd


Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *

Tango-L mailing list

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 05:00:41 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango

Floyd,

I think we are talking about two different types of
leaders. I was referring to the leader that motivates
people by example. The one that can exist without a title.
I think you're thinking of the titular one - one that
exists because he/she has the finances, has the title, has
whatever that give him/her some control. It is the
difference between a Martin Luther King and a George Bush.
The fact that you defined your community by its size
(number of email address and workshops) rather than by it's
quality is telling. There are lots of large communities
that are just awful.

And to use Daniel Trenner's name in the same page that
you're saying you want people to be opinionated? I think
he would be insulted since that goes against what he
teaches. He deserves better treatment. You might ask him
to review your webpage.

The overall impression I have from your responses (both
private and public) is that you are not really interested
in changing anything. That you are more interested in
hearing confirmation of your ideas rather than learning

>from good critical feedback. You said it yourself - you're

opinionated. You've a right to your opinions. So why
bother to ask anyone on this list for feedback? Compare
how you've answered with how Jeff responded to feedback on
his waltz. See a difference?

I only read the first page of your website (what tango is
not) and debated on whether it was even worth responding to
given your resistance to the simple idea that your webpage
was hard to read. (I think it took 3 posts until you
finally acknowledged that maybe you should fix this.) I
can tell you that your some of your opinions are based on
misunderstood myths. That it discourages women from
studying. That the reasons some customs took place might
be right for the time but may no longer valid in today's
culture. It's funny that you acknowledge that you have
little contact with experienced AT people, but it's okay
for you to be opinionated. Hmm.

Your aim is admirable, but the execution of what I have
read is not. You've asked for help with communicating
ideas. My suggestion is for you to explain your ideas to
someone else and have them write your webpage instead.
Your purposes might then be served.

Happy community-building to all,
Trini de Pittsburgh


--- Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com> wrote:



PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/




Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:32:57 -0500
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: bmichlig@usamontana.com
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 19:55:52 -0700, you wrote:

>Well, I am quite hesitant to post anything at all about anything at all on the list, being
>as I have not yet had the opportunity to actually dance (but do read the list
>voraciously, have for quite some time, and really want to learn to dance, and dance
>well, given the constraints of time, money and location, the last being where there. is.
>no. tango. at all.). But reading all the posts and responses has really got me thinking.
>
>If I am new to tango, which I am, and looking for information, guidance, help,
>instruction, experience, and even dances, and came across your site, I would, in all
>honesty, seriously question my own sanity for wanting to do something so fraught
>with infinite peril. What if I do it wrong? Accidentally learn from the wrong videos or
>the wrong teachers? Need a more aggressive lead sometimes, or conversely wish
>for a more responsive lead who can read what I'd like to do, and then "let" me do it?
>Would I be shunned, shined on, dismissed or ignored? What if, with my limited
>verbal and dance vocabularies, I am unable to communicate clearly - this is, in fact, a
>given. I would anticipate, based on what I have read at your site, that the
>consequences would be rather severe.

Thats's Tango... There have been other posts on the L's in the past,
on how such a sweet, tender and sensually enjoyable dance can invoke
the high number of vitriolic remarks and comments that it does. It
reminds me of of Tango's beginnings. What I've read of how the
individual men's clubs fought to defend who owned what moves, etc.

But don't let that deter you in the least. IMHO it's mostly here on
the L's now that you come across these outward expressions of
'dislike' of some person or aspect. But that's good, I'm sure...
It's an outlet for that kind of thing, and an ability for real
learning too. People put their true feelings into their own
particular opinions. A lot of it is very good to know about.

But there is basically none of it at Milongas and other Tango venues.
People are all, outwardly at least, very polite, respectful and
mannerly towards each other. I think Tango venues are among the
most civilized of gathering that there are anywhere.

So it is all good in the end.. There are artists and there are
artists and I consider Tango an art form. Artistic minds are
sometimes tempramental, sometimes obsessive, and more. We need to
accept all of it..

>Floyd, I mean no harm or disrespect at all - and I am so glad that you have devoted
>considerable time and energy and passion to getting all the thoughts out there, in
>order to benefit us all. I truly sense a genuine care for what you do. And still, if I came
>across your site, I'd probably look elsewhere for community. And I'd do so not
>because the information you posted was incorrect or false or misleading, but rather
>because of the tone.

I've already made changes to the How To pages based on similar
suggestions over the last few days. I've removed all the smiley's
and * symbols that were in place to emphasize and denote. As I've
told others, I do tend to do this kind of re-writing anyway, as what I
re-read sinks in, and the humour or intensity of feeling that was
there at the beginning wears thin in my own mind. Second and third
and fourth, etc. readings all require changes. :-)

But at least I get it out there because of those original feelings.
I'm expressive. I said it on the first page. I am what I am.. Some
just need to add that grain of salt.

>It is such a difficult thing to communicate humor, especially one that could be
>described as sardonic, in writing. All the winks and smiles and emoticons in the world
>cannot really get that across. So the reader has only the plain old words to depend
>on for everything - the facts, the nuance, the belief and the likely emotional state of
>the writer are all captured in the words, for better or worse.

Ah.. There you are. What you speak of are gone for the most part.
But do understand there are curmudgeons and the like out there. Some
highly successful and paid well to entertain. Some people enjoy that
kind of humor. I know I do. Both to be, even if in my own mind..,
and to listen to those who are. Everyone is different. Keep lots
of salt on hand... ;-)

>I would be frightened. I would be frightened enough to look for a different place,
>group, website.
>
>I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but I thought that I'd tentatively offer up a
>real, true "beginner's mind" sort of take on the thing.

I'm not asking for any particular responses... Only that they remain
within the pale. I thank you for yours...

>Now, above all, one must be true to one's own heart and vision and passion. So, no
>matter what anyone (most especially me) says, do that. But first decide if the image
>you are presenting is the one that will really serve your own heart and vision and
>passion the best.

I'm working on it.. Believe me.

>With utmost respect and thanks -

>Bridget in Montana.

Likewise Bridget.
And I'm glad to learn it's not so cold up there after all. :-)

Floyd


Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:52:37 -0500
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu



On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 23:32:04 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi Floyd,
>
>I went to your website and started to read your "how to tango" section. I've
>learned over the years to keep my opinions to myself, but since you asked
>for feedback, I'll give you mine about some parts of your treatise.
>
>The first thing I noticed is that you said that most tango teachers don't
>know what they are doing. While it's possible that you might be right, it's
>an unnecessarily insulting comment about all the other teachers out there.
>Secondly, I read a lot of criticism and disparaging remarks about ballroom
>dancing teachers and their methods. Again, I find that gratuitously
>offensive. I don't know about other communities, but here in Atlanta there
>are no ballroom teachers teaching Argentine tango. At times some teachers
>might have tried, but there are so many Argentine Tango teachers around that
>it would be a huge waste of time for the ballroomers to get involved. In
>other words, at least in Atlanta the threat to the purity of Argentine Tango
>by ballroom teachers is a non issue. Besides, I've gotten to know many
>ballroom dancers and teachers over the years, and I found many of them to be
>nice people, gracious, generous and respectful of the Argentine Tango.

I have no negative feelings about ballroom dancing. I have never done
any of it myself and have no interest. So I've not said a word
about it, either way, per se... Nor of the people who enjoy it. Only
those who teach AT using ballroom methods. Teaching patterns,
memorizing, and the like. This obviously does not include all
instructors.., but are you saying it is an ok way to teach Argentine
Tango? I'll read on to see.....

>While your comments about tango are mostly true and accurate, they come
>accross as judgemental and presumptuous.

The particular words you chose are nasty sounding but in fact.., why
would anyone promote something that is true and accepted, but think
they must leave it open to the possibility that it is not true and
maybe totally false?

And if you agree with what I write, aren't you then too? How can one
not be confident... Why should being 'definite' about something not
be allowed? Using these nicer words, to me it seems to be not such a
bad way to think...

>Also, there is no need to put down Salsa either.

I have not 'put down' Salsa. Where do you get that idea? Salsa is
street dance too, but everyone seems to be learning it from ballroom
teachers... It seems to be a dance that can be taught that way.

So I suggest to people who don't want to learn improvisation, or how
to lead and follow step by step.., to switch to another dance. Salsa
is actually a very positive alternative.

>I don't understand why you find it necessary to slam Salsa. I
>personally love to dance Salsa and I find it to be as challenging and
>rewarding as tango when done to the right music with the right partner.

Many people miss points. There are those out there who want to change
Tango to suit themselves in particular. Something more akin to
ballroom... It is they to whom I am talking when I might sound
disapproving. Not Salsa dancers themselves.

>As you say, tango is all about the lead and follow. However, there are many
>ways to impart this knowledge to people. Teaching them certain movements and
>techniques is perfectly fine and should not be criticized.

Why not?

>We've been teaching and dancing for over 13 years and have had great success
>turning out very good dancers by using many different teaching tools, including the
>D8CB. Also, your analogy of tango and tennis might be a good one, but tango
>could also be compared to downhill skiing, basketball, racketball or any
>other number of sport activities.

Exactly... And in none of them do you watch your feet or memorize
where to put them...

>Sure they are done without much thinking and rather fluidly and naturally.
>However, these activities are like tango in that they must be learned and
>require a lot of skill and practice before they can be done effortlessly.

What is needed to be learned is that one follows the true lead only...
The ball, the hand that's reaching out to tag, the slope and the
moguls, And I agree one needs practice 'how' to move... Just not
'where' to move....

>Anyway, leading and following are skills that must be learned and
>developed. The natural born tango dancer is a rare thing. There is
>no miracle "one lesson" system to teach it and it's a rare follower
>who can actually follow even the simplest lead if they are totally
>inexperienced.

Many of my students can Tango suprizingly well in one lesson. They
do need to practice fluidity and finesse to various degrees, but they
understand the concepts and the basics, including how to follow
correctly, and they do them rather rather nicely.., all things
considered.

>I appreciate the effort you've put into this page and the obvious love you
>have for tango. I can also simpathize with your desire to break through and
>find a sure fire, simple way to teach people to really dance tango. Still,
>you might want to go back and look over your writings. Perhaps it would help
>if you try to put yourself into the place of your reader. Please consider
>who this reader might be... Perhaps another teacher, maybe a ballroom dancer
>or teacher... How about a Salsa dancer or swing dancer who's heard about
>Argentineinte tango. Maybe just some person who knows nothing about tango
>and precious little about dance in any form. To some of these people your
>words might be off-putting if not downright offensive. Maybe it's good to
>remember the old adage about attracting more flies with honey than with
>vinegar......

I never try to attract quantity... Tango isn't for everyone and I
don't want those 'others'... I always try to tell starting students
that some will become hooked and others will not like Tango at all.

The pages were written for those just starting, and also very much for
those who need to overcome their tendency to think about their feet. I
don't teach anyone to do 8cb's at all.., but rather to go by
themselves and go crazy walking all kinds of erratic directions. To
free the minds away from everything except complete and total
randomness.

But.., that every step needs to retain Tango style... Stay on balls
of feet... Brush ankles during any amount of pivoting, or not, and
then to step in any of the three directions, from whatever direction
they end up facing.

My favorite example of the errors of their ways, is to have a follower
do a gancho on my left side and then immediately lead her to walk
straight at me so that I might give her a gancho to her extended left
foot. Nine out of ten times the follower will try to step in front of
me. They ignore the leads as given because they have not learned to
pay full attention to them *only*.., and to never try to second guess
the leader. When the follower finally listens and tries things my
way, she walks into me, I do the gancho, and her eyes light up....

All in all my pages are for people with this kind of thinking to work
on... They need to become better. Whoever or 'whatever' they are.

>Cheers,
>
>Manuel
>
>visit our webpage
>www.tango-rio.com

I appreciate there are many out there who teach and will continue to
teach their way... Mine is just different. It seems to work well
for me and the people I teach.

Floyd


Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:56:28 -0500
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: Euroking@aol.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:58:38 EST, you wrote:

>
>Floyd,
>
>I will respond to your beginning. I have read most of the responses and
>opinions. As the thread progressed I decided not to read your web site until I
>reach a point where I was seeing a pattern. Then I would read what you wrote
>and see if the comments were in line with the pattern.

>First, nice job in organizing and laying out your ideas and your
>interpretation of Tango. Second, for the most part I agree, not that that means
>anything, but I find the underlying information valid and valuable. However, I think
>your negative generalizations of preconceived stereotypes, like ballroom
>instructors, majority of Argentine Tango Teachers don't know what there are
>doing, etc., and pardon me for paraphrasing, but they cloud my acceptance of your
>facts. If I did not have some experience and accept the fact that Tango has
>not set requirement for patterns, everything can be changed at anytime
>depending on circumstances, I would have certainly move on from your site and missed
>the value.

But let me ask you... Since beginners have no idea that what's
expressed is NOT true. This being more or less the reverse of what
you are saying, experience wise... Wouldn't it amount to the same
thing in the end..? That they would continue reading, accepting, and
gaining the value?

Only those who already have their own contrary opinions would likely
be the ones to find fault... ??

>I understand that you clearly, albeit, negatively laid out your approach and
>bias, nevertheless I believe that most people looking to learn something
>don't want to sift through the opinions all the time. It might be better to
>state your points and assumptions and then proceed to provide clear and unbiased
>instruction points, maybe breaking it up with an editorial sidebar if you
>must.

There is to be a lot of 'breaking up'... Especially adding jpg
illustrations, etc. Smaller more specific pages... Etc...

However, re the 'What Tango is not' beginning...? Many instructors
make large points of clarifying to new students how their subject is
not at all like other subjects which may appear similar. My
beginning with an explaination that Tango is not at all like
conventional ballroom is certainly not out of line in this way... It
is obviously worthwhile to clear the decks as it were, before starting
to teach something brand new. I tried to do it humorously but I do
march to a different drummer.... So we're trying to find out what
needs to be improved on. As I've told another, my attemps at
defending myself are just to make 'conversation' and cause a little
back and forth... I'm not truly disagreeing with anything anyone
says... I'm looking for input for the best outcome.

>I think you miss, seem to or ignore :) the background of most people that
>choose to learn AT or any dance. The want to learn something or they are being
>told they want to learn something (by a significant other). They need to leave
>a class that they can repeat. The 8CB is something repeatable. Maybe it is
>better said as you teach this it is only for the purpose providing you with a
> beginning point and that it is not set in stone. Things change and Tango is
>a dance of improvisation, beginning one with each other in concert with the
>music. But the point is that people who take lessons need to believe they
>are learning something. If they become bored they leave.

>A long learning curve leaves only the hardy at the end of the day.
>That may be the object of AT but I don't think so.

It is the object of my teaching.

For instance.., I do not believe in putting fences up to barricade
continuously increasing slopes that lead to cliffs. Those who get
close enough to lose their balance and fall over are the dumb ones..,
and this in the end improves the breed... Ha!

A little rough? <g>

But it is sadly true in many ways. By making things safe and easy,
for anyone to be able to do, we are homoginizing everything to pap.

>Finally, I agree with Bridget in Montana and with Manuel, its the tone that
>is the downside, not being "outspoken" with the right placement I believe it
>adds value.

>Heaven forbid that anyone on the 'L' be considered outspoken or
>opinionated it never happens :).

Ha!

But as I've said many times now... Things will come to be worked out
nicely, I'm sure... I can deal with consensus...

>In any case,
>Just some thoughts
>
>Bill in Seattle
>
>PS Thanks for the hard work and the openness to ask and take comments.

You're entirely welcome and I appreciate yours...

Floyd


Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:46:18 -0500
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 05:00:41 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>Floyd,
>
>I think we are talking about two different types of
>leaders. I was referring to the leader that motivates
>people by example. The one that can exist without a title.

I don't have a title. Yet I exist...

Actually I don't consider myself a 'leader' in this case anyway.

> I think you're thinking of the titular one - one that
>exists because he/she has the finances, has the title, has
>whatever that give him/her some control. It is the
>difference between a Martin Luther King and a George Bush.
>The fact that you defined your community by its size
>(number of email address and workshops) rather than by it's
>quality is telling. There are lots of large communities
>that are just awful.

You seem to be hung up on the term 'leader'... Is that what you
consider yourself? I don't have that opinion of myself at all... I
am a promotor, an organizer, a do gooder, for the sake of things I
like and want to see more of.., for my own benefit mostly. Tango is
my hobby. As with stamp collectors who have to buy the stamps, I am
ok with spending money on my hobby too... I've put a lot of time and
energy into other things as well... Twenty years attempting to
restore a 215 ft historic steam ship. I've worked at food co-ops,
and several other volunteer type things. No pay ever... Just for
fun, experience and to see things that I think would be nice to have
more of...

I have been several 'leaders' actually. You'd be surprized... I
was elected to these offices because people knew I was able to get
things done..

Besides quoting facts.., I did ask why you think we do not have the
nice qualities you mentioned. I'll ask again... It is my way of
saying you are assuming we do not. But in fact, we do all right in
those areas too.. If I need to say so.

I'm not really looking for a personality profile here. What's the
point of it and where are you trying to go with it? I'm happy with
myself and what I do. It seems others are too because we have had
tremendous Tango growth in this area over the last 18 months. Btw, it
is not just me doing it now either. It has started to spread out and
be taken on by others too. That's very cool... I can lay back a
little.

>And to use Daniel Trenner's name in the same page that
>you're saying you want people to be opinionated? I think
>he would be insulted since that goes against what he
>teaches. He deserves better treatment. You might ask him
>to review your webpage.

Come on now. First of all, the two paragraphs were entirely
different contexts... No relation or connection in any way... So
your use of 'same page' is ambiguous.

Beyond that, Daniel and I, with Anne Sophie included, all got along
famously the two days they spent with Carol and I. You wouldn't
believe how well. He and I agreed on most everything... Basically
he was my first instructor many years ago and I consider that I bonded
to him... His thinking and style. He being my first view of Tango.
I have no idea what you mean by my going against his way of teaching.
I teach very much like he does. And he certainly does have his
opinions too. Some developed more recently that we got into then..
To not have opinions is to be wishy-washy...

>The overall impression I have from your responses (both
>private and public)

They were one and the same. One copy to you and one to the L.

>is that you are not really interested in changing anything.

Not true... I am in the process of following up on suggestions. Some
already done.

>That you are more interested in hearing confirmation of your
>ideas rather than learning from

>good critical feedback.

That's an oxymoron... :-)

But still, I do listen to what people say.

>You said it yourself - you're opinionated. You've a right to your
>opinions. So why bother to ask anyone on this list for feedback?
>Compare how you've answered with how Jeff responded to feedback
>on his waltz. See a difference?

Isn't gaining information, advice, and ideas how one forms their
opinions..? How do you come to like or want one thing or another?
One learns from various inputs and then decides or 'opinionates' which
feel best overall.

As for responding? I respond in kind.

>I only read the first page of your website (what tango is
>not) and debated on whether it was even worth responding to
>given your resistance to the simple idea that your webpage
>was hard to read. (I think it took 3 posts until you
>finally acknowledged that maybe you should fix this.)

This is a waste of quality time, but I'll explain again..

Outputting a web page and having your design appear exactly as
intended in all the various browsers of the world, with their
individual features, user selected options, etc. is a virtual
impossibility. One does not make immediate changes to suit a couple
of complaints, which will more than likely cause just as many or more

>from those previously good. I simply waited for more of a consensus

on what was wrong, to gain an idea of what should be done about it
Since some individuals even refused to enlarge their text size to see
what helped, I didn't especially need to consider them either...

>I can tell you that your some of your opinions are based on
>misunderstood myths.

Is that your opinion?

What 'myths' are you referring to?

>That it discourages women from studying.

I see that... But others will.

>That the reasons some customs took place might be right for the
>time but may no longer valid in today's culture. It's funny that you
>acknowledge that you have little contact with experienced AT people,
>but it's okay for you to be opinionated. Hmm.

Hmm. I had little ability to 'dance' it... Not a real problem now.
Because you know, for instance, Freud didn't have much contact with
othes in the field either, when he came to understand the concepts and
principals of psychology.

>Your aim is admirable, but the execution of what I have
>read is not. You've asked for help with communicating
>ideas. My suggestion is for you to explain your ideas to
>someone else and have them write your webpage instead.
>Your purposes might then be served.
>
>Happy community-building to all,
>Trini de Pittsburgh

My purpose is being served. I am learning many things...

Floyd



Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:32:03 -0500
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: febaker@buffalotango.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

>Many of my students can Tango suprizingly well in one lesson. They
>do need to practice fluidity and finesse to various degrees, but they
>understand the concepts and the basics, including how to follow
>correctly, and they do them rather rather nicely.., all things
>considered.
>

That's wonderful. I've only seen very few people over the last decade or
better who could tango surprinsingly well in one lesson. ....

>I never try to attract quantity... Tango isn't for everyone and I
>don't want those 'others'... I always try to tell starting students
>that some will become hooked and others will not like Tango at all.
>

Since tango is not for everybody (nothing is for everybody anyway), we think
it's better to cast a wide net and attract many people so a larger number
will remain after the inevitable attrition....

>The pages were written for those just starting, and also very much for
>those who need to overcome their tendency to think about their feet. I
>don't teach anyone to do 8cb's at all.., but rather to go by
>themselves and go crazy walking all kinds of erratic directions. To
>free the minds away from everything except complete and total
>randomness.
>

I guess I missed your point. I did not realize your entire treatise was an
admonition about not looking at one's feet while dancing tango ;-). All
kidding aside, one of the first things we teach people is "not to look at
their feet". However, I think that "total randomness" might result in total
chaos. For me (my opinion only), tango is a very structured dance in that it
most be danced to some wonderful music with a very nice rhythm. IMHO,
totally random movements would result in a chaotic mess. Also, the LOD must
be respected and randomness of movements on the dance floor will inevitably
result in a bad dancing experience for all the people involved. I was taught
by master teachers who I really respect and believe that tango has a code.
The essence of tango is in the turns which are the famous molinete. The
woman generally dances around the man as the man dances around the floor
along the line of dance. The 8CB is nothing more than the first 3 steps of
the womans' turn to the left of the man as the man moves forward along the
dance floor. Why should these 3 perfectly good steps be demonized? If one
does not teach the grapevine turn, how can learn to do it? If they cannot
perform turns, I don't think they can really dance tango... Anyway, good
luck with your efforts to educate people. I think it's great you are turning
out good tango dancers and growing your community. I'll be sure to get in
touch if I'm ever in your area and If you come to Atlanta it will be my
pleasure to meet you and show you around.

Best,

Manuel

Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into
something more.
https://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_gratitude&FORM=WLMTAG

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:54:24 -0500
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@buffalotango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to Tango
To: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:32:03 -0500, you wrote:

>>Many of my students can Tango suprizingly well in one lesson. They
>>do need to practice fluidity and finesse to various degrees, but they
>>understand the concepts and the basics, including how to follow
>>correctly, and they do them rather rather nicely.., all things
>>considered.
>>
>
>That's wonderful. I've only seen very few people over the last decade or
>better who could tango surprinsingly well in one lesson. ....

Believe what you will... I am referring to followers mostly, of
which there are by far more of, but many do understand the four basic
leads, how to move with Tango style (balls of the feet, ti che's
moving into one's space, extended backsteping), their axis and
dancing under own control, etc., enough to move very nicely on the
floor and to dance.., to the extent of walking, following grapvines,
going to the cross (auto or led) and more.

Of course there are those 'others' too. ;-/

>>I never try to attract quantity... Tango isn't for everyone and I
>>don't want those 'others'... I always try to tell starting students
>>that some will become hooked and others will not like Tango at all.
>
>Since tango is not for everybody (nothing is for everybody anyway), we think
>it's better to cast a wide net and attract many people so a larger number
>will remain after the inevitable attrition....

Whatever is comfortable. We've never not had at least one new person
to our free basic class in all the 90+ weeks we've given them. Week
before last there were 10 people. Last week 6. It is easier to
teach smaller numbers of course so I perfer 'fewer' at a time. Both
weeks, most stayed on the entire night and danced. Enough of them
come back to keep our community constantly growing..

>>The pages were written for those just starting, and also very much for
>>those who need to overcome their tendency to think about their feet. I
>>don't teach anyone to do 8cb's at all.., but rather to go by
>>themselves and go crazy walking all kinds of erratic directions. To
>>free the minds away from everything except complete and total
>>randomness.

>I guess I missed your point. I did not realize your entire treatise was an
>admonition about not looking at one's feet while dancing tango ;-).

Not just not 'looking'. I said not *thinking* about them. It's a
much tougher nut to crack for those with other dance experience..

>All kidding aside, one of the first things we teach people is "not to look at
>their feet". However, I think that "total randomness" might result in total
>chaos.

I tell followers to follow... I tell leaders to do the random thing
(with complete Tango 'style' of course). On their own and with no
music... It seems to work well and gives a clearer understanding of
complete improvisation based on their own whims. And how to move out
of corners too. <g>

>For me (my opinion only), tango is a very structured dance in that it
>most be danced to some wonderful music with a very nice rhythm. IMHO,
>totally random movements would result in a chaotic mess. Also, the LOD must
>be respected and randomness of movements on the dance floor will inevitably
>result in a bad dancing experience for all the people involved. I was taught
>by master teachers who I really respect and believe that tango has a code.
>The essence of tango is in the turns which are the famous molinete. The
>woman generally dances around the man as the man dances around the floor
>along the line of dance.

The random thing is done as practice (homework) to condition and open
the mind to improv. Certainly not meant to be applied to a dance,
with a partner, with music, on a crowded dance floor.

A lot (10%?) of my first time students understand and can do the
molinete by the end of the first hour. Maybe 90 mins... ?? <g>
When I get very good learners, I go long....

>The 8CB is nothing more than the first 3 steps of the womans' turn to
>the left of the man as the man moves forward along the dance floor.

>Why should these 3 perfectly good steps be demonized?

>If one does not teach the grapevine turn, how can learn to do it?

You haven't read my 'How To' pages... ;-)

For a follower, there should be no such thing as a grapevine.

All of this is in the 'How To' pages.

Especially here
https://www.buffalotango.com/html/l_-_lead.html
for what you ask above.

To be sure, it's only how and what *I* teach and think...
I'm certainly not saying other methods can't work too...

>If they cannot perform turns, I don't think they can really dance tango...
>Anyway, good luck with your efforts to educate people. I think it's great
>you are turning out good tango dancers and growing your community.
>I'll be sure to get in touch if I'm ever in your area and If you come to Atlanta
>it will be my pleasure to meet you and show you around.

>Best,
>
>Manuel

I've spent a lot of time in Atlanta in the past. A couple times a
year for 2-3 weeks at a time during most of the 80's. I enjoyed
Atlanta even without Tango. I'll certainly look you up if I stay or
go through again.

Good tangos...

Floyd

>Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into
>something more.
>https://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_gratitude&FORM=WLMTAG

Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * *