3914 How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:11:08 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
Madam,
Some people are born athletes. Some are not. Some are born dancers, some are not. These are natural traits, gifts, and one may not achieve the hoped for resultats, regardless of the effort put in.
One has to realize his/her own limitations, and be at peace. As the Greeks were saying, "Know thyself".
What amazes me is that you have continued teaching this person for one year, raising his hopes while being totally aware of his problem. The teachers that I know hold an audition for the prospective pupils, and reject those without talent.
I consider this case being on the border of ethical behavior.
Lucia
Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM> escribis:
Dear listeros,
Al and I are struggling with a challenge we haven't met before. One of
our students seems to have absolutely no sense of rhythm. We've been
working with D'Arienzo/Biaggi, etc, but so far to no avail. He is very
enthusiastic about tango, practices at home with his wife, has been
studying with us for a year, and is also a dear friend. This man is an
accomplished athlete (mainly golf and archery) and is extremely
disciplined. Has anyone had experience with this situation either
personally or as a teacher?
We truly don't want him to discouraged after all he has put into tango.
Advice???
Barbara
PS. Our website is finally updated; please visit it! We'll keep it
current with Puerto Vallarta tango news, and any links to tango in
Mexico we can find. Go to: www.tangobar-productions.com.
Abrm tu cuenta aqum
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:52:07 EDT
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
Lucia,
I swore that I would never rise to the bait, and feed the trolls, but
AUDITIONS to learn a social dance???? Is Argentine Tango such an elitist dance that
one has to pass a test to be able to learn and if they can't keep up your out.
You have to be joking.
I would agree that there are natural traits, that not all can run 4 minute
miles, nor can they be trained to do so anymore than the vast majority of us
could ever dance at the Bolshoi, no matter how much time we give to the endeavor.
But that does not mean we cannot jog or dance at a milonga. Some a better
than others, all that try are going to improve, maybe a little here and a
little there. All can have fun and enjoy the great music.
Teachers are great because they can take and improve someone who wants to
learn. Good teachers do not discourage any attempt to learn, they nurture it.
When they have problems getting a student to achieve a certain result, they
consult with peers to see what is in someone else's "Bag of Tricks" that might be
of help. If a student wants to learn they will. If they reach a point of
diminishing returns they will stop, but it is a teacher's duty to encourage NOT
discourage. Honesty is needed, you can't lead a student on, if you try it wound
not be for long, as they will see through your insincerity. The quest is the
goal not perfection.
If you were joking or being facetious, I apologize, as I missed it. But the
teacher student relationship is a nurturing relationship not one of homage.
Just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:05:41 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
Lucia wrote:
>Madam,
>
>Some people are born athletes. Some are not. Some are born dancers, some are not. These are natural traits, gifts, and one may not achieve the hoped for resultats, regardless of the effort put in.
>
>
One need not be the next Juan Carlos Copes to take tango lesson.
>One has to realize his/her own limitations, and be at peace. As the Greeks were saying, "Know thyself".
>
>
Possibly the limitation here is one in your thinking. It took me a year of
practice before I began consistently stepping on the beat. I'm sure
many other people have similar stories to tell.
In any case, people who struggle the hardest to learn, often turn out as
better dancers than the people with talent. They have to work harder
and practice longer for everything and in the end that polishes them into
diamonds.
>What amazes me is that you have continued teaching this person for one year, raising his hopes while being totally aware of his problem.
>
I suspect the student is also aware of the problem. So long as no one
is being deceived there's no cause for amazement.
>The teachers that I know hold an audition for the prospective pupils, and reject those without talent.
>
>
If it works for them fine. I suppose they have more people wanting to be
their students than they time to teach.
But then again, I've been to the websites of Gustavo Naveira, Luciana
Valle,
and many other prominent tango teachers from BsAs and without seeing
mention of such an audition.
Who specifically are these teachers you know that audition prospective
students?
>I consider this case being on the border of ethical behavior.
>
>
I think you're going overboard here.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:01:59 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
Thank you Bill.
The single most important trait to learn tango is desire.
I have seen many students who succeed because they want to, not
because they have native talent. Probably more than the reverse.
Yes, a good teacher is one who triggers that desire to succeed...and
gives them the foundation for it.
On Oct 24, 2005, at 7:52 PM, Bill King wrote:
> Lucia,
> ...I would agree that there are natural traits, that not all can
> run 4 minute
> miles, nor can they be trained to do so anymore than the vast
> majority of us
> could ever dance at the Bolshoi, no matter how much time we give to
> the endeavor.
> But that does not mean we cannot jog or dance at a milonga. Some
> a better
> than others, all that try are going to improve, maybe a little here
> and a
> little there. All can have fun and enjoy the great music.
>
> Teachers are great because they can take and improve someone who
> wants to
> learn. Good teachers do not discourage any attempt to learn, they
> nurture it.
> When they have problems getting a student to achieve a certain
> result, they
> consult with peers to see what is in someone else's "Bag of Tricks"
> that might be
> of help. If a student wants to learn they will. If they reach a
> point of
> diminishing returns they will stop, but it is a teacher's duty to
> encourage NOT
> discourage. Honesty is needed, you can't lead a student on, if you
> try it wound
> not be for long, as they will see through your insincerity. The
> quest is the
> goal not perfection.
> ...
> Bill in Seattle
>
>
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:04:31 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
Hola a todos!
Sean here.
Bill from Seattle, a self proclaimed rhythmically
challenged student, raised some great points in his
first post on this thread.
-thinking too much
-pressure from a follow, teacher or other
-balance
-the music can take over the lead
-be relaxed and enjoy
Aron is equally on the mark when he suggests
alternative music
As a reformed rhythmical basket case, I agree with
every point, and add the following:
Dance alone, every day, to music you love, without
anyone watching, and without caring if you are getting
it "right".
In my case, it took much longer than one year to learn
how to move rhythmically. I'm still learning to relax.
Lucia post is characteristically provocative, but I
hardly think it qualifies as trolling. She clearly
identifies her perspective as "The Contrarian view".
She raises a valid point about ethics. If people will
cool their flame jets long enough to think the idea
through, it is possible some useful discussion will
emerge.
Christopher has adequately defended Barbara's ethical
honor in this regard. So how about we let that matter
drop, and address the general question at the root of
Lucias comment:
At what point should a teacher send a student who has
not shown significant progress to someone else?
I think that in general, it ought to be much sooner
than one year.
Sean
P.S. My own provocative thoughts: Everyone can be
taught; it's just easier to teach people with a lot of
natural talent. IMHO, If the student is not learning,
it is the fault of the teacher. A teacher who
auditions students recognizes his own limitations, and
is doing a favor to those he does not have the ability
to teach.
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:16:11 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
>From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
>Madam,
>What amazes me is that you have continued teaching this person for one
>year, raising his hopes while being totally aware of his problem. The
>teachers that I know hold an audition for the prospective pupils, and
>reject those without talent.
>
>I consider this case being on the border of ethical behavior.
Wow Lucia, those are strong words to someone who's only asking for input
about how to teach a little bit of tango..... I wont argue about the
auditions, because if your intention is to create tango dancing superstars,
you'd be right in weeding out all but the best, but this is just about
social dancing. There is nothing unethical about imparting classes to
someone who wishes to take them. On the contrary, it's admirable that a
teacher has the patience and forbearance, and cares enough about their
pupils to continue their efforts to teach them against apparently
insurmountable odds.
Teach on Barbara!
Manuel
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:04:33 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
Lucia says: "Some people are born athletes. Some are not. Some are born
dancers, some are
not. These are natural traits, gifts, and one may not achieve the hoped for
resultats, regardless of the effort put in."
I can assure you that Lucia's view is shared by a great number of
Argentines.
When it comes to any artistic activity you are classified very early in life
as having aptitude and then you are encouraged to study and perfect
yourself or not having it and then you are discouraged and guided to do
something else.
People think that you are born with a genetical structure that will allow
you to exhibit certain skills but you may, on the other hand, congenitally
lack conditions to succeed in certain endeavors.
Accordingly and although education is free through graduate school. Many
people do not go to the University because they think that they lack the
necessary conditions.
People will say " He is very good for music" or " painting" or "dancing"
etc. or else they will say
"el no tiene oido para la musica" (he has no ear for music) , etc.
With respect to dancing if you are not graceful from the very beginning you
are classified as being "pata dura" (stiff legged). This classification is a
terrible handicap very difficult to overcome.
The frequent result is that you will never attempt to dance "because you are
convinced that you have no conditions".
In the States on the other hand it does not matter what natural ability you
have or you do not have, you are encouraged to continue and acquire the
maximum possible development within your possibilities.
Here however children are also classified into "gifted" and then they are
taught in a more accelerated form or "normal" or "handicapped" so that their
education is adjusted to their degree of intelligence.
Argentina has a tendency to mix children of different intelligence degree
because it is though that this mixture is a reflection of life in general
and prepares them better to live in society.
Especial education is provided for handicapped children.
The result of this mentality is that in the States you find a great number
of mediocre dancers on the floor. Although they may not be graceful or
gifted they manage to socialize and have great fun dancing.
In Argentina the number of such people is more reduced because the ones that
were not "blessed" by nature do not dance. So they will have to have fun
doing something different.
I hope that this helps to understand, best regards, Sergio.
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 02:30:00 EDT
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
Sergio,
Good comments, cultural differences are real and important aspects of life,
without a doubt. Ergo my comments on feeding trolls were an overreaction on my
part to comments that struck a nerve. Lucia, I apologize, but I can never
agree with the approach that segments elements of society early.
As to many mediocre dancers, that is probably true anywhere, and I would
venture to say in Argentina also, but less so. My cultural bias is to engage, to
try to bring out the best in a student (I teach skiing, not dancing but still
a movement based activity.) Most of the time my students won't try something
because their environment and attitude that has evolved from life experiences
has told them they can't do something or they are too old (my students have
ranged from 35-72). In some cases physical limitations do place a limit, but many
times it is creating a belief within them that they can. You can't tell them
that, you have to lead them there so they can experience it. You need their
trust, and you need to see their limits, but blending the two together helping
them to feel the confidence creates some really surprising results and some
excellent skills.
I hate prejudging someone's desire or creating an environment that will limit
their growth in any endeavor, it is a hot button for me. Lucia pushed it,
fairly and from a cultural point I missed, but none the less I can't accept the
viewpoint, only recognize it does exist and the basis for its existence.
Sergio, Thank you
Bill
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:20:51 -0600
From: Ron Weigel <tango.society@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
On 10/24/05, WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ... There is nothing unethical about imparting classes to
> someone who wishes to take them. On the contrary, it's admirable that a
> teacher has the patience and forbearance, and cares enough about their
> pupils to continue their efforts to teach them against apparently
> insurmountable odds.
>
> Manuel
I've had some students who learn tango very slowly in the beginning
but persist in their studies because of their love of tango and who
become good (some very good) dancers over time. I've also had some
students who learn rapidly in the beginning and then reach a plateau
beyond which they never progress. Many in the latter group stop
studying tango formally (in classes or workshops) after about 3-6
months. In a number of these cases, they appear to be overly confident
of their own abilities and do not want to be in classes with "less
skilled" students. There is a correlation with age here (first group
is older, second group younger) and, to be fair, the older students
continue to study longer because they have either more time or money.
I tell my students that the more I study tango, the more I become a
beginner. Tango has so much to offer that the more you study it, the
more humble you become in recognizing the limitations of your own
ability compared to what can be achieved.
Ron
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:15:55 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
According to my observation (not just in tango, but all other kinds of
dancing as well) 'born' talents are more prone to quitting dancing than
'flops'.
Most dancing talents I know started dancing as a child in academic form, or
at least with very strong encouragement (usually verging on the border of
forcing) on behalf of the parents. It is very rare that dancing talents who
start dancing at an older age will remain with dancing (or at least not with
ONE particular type of dancing).
My theory is that it is probably because they don't get a feeling of
accomplishment - it is too easy for them - so they look for something more
challenging, or simply will give a lower priority to dancing (for them it
doesn't require so much resources as other things afterall), so even if they
dance, they do it at a lower 'heat level' (it will be 'just' one of the many
things they do).
Many of those who may be considered talented NOW, started as average or
below-average dancers: or at least they THOUGHT they were when they started
dancing - a view which impressed itself on their dancing and learning at
that time. This was sometimes due to the fact that they had (or still have)
too high expectations from themselves, or simply they have some personality
(mainly self-confidence related) issues (or both), creating problems in the
learning process, resulting in the objective impression that they don't have
the talent.
As for teaching the untalented: although I've ecountered some quite hopeless
cases, I believe that anyone and everyone can be taught dancing. Obviously,
I tell these people what kind of problems they have and the fact that it may
take them longer to achieve the same level as others around them - but it
can be done. It is up to them to decide if they want it or not. Those who do
it improve as a person(ality) and as a dancer in parallel, overcoming
inhibitions, self-confidence problems, communication problems, behaviour
problems, along with improvement in coordination, rythmical sense, posture
etc. This usually improves their dancing as well.
Nonetheless, the biggest power is motivation. If a beginner has motivation
then (s)he will find the way to improve himself. It may be a long way, but
the results will be there.
Holding 'entrance exams' for social dancing is absurd. If there would be
such exams, social dancing would simply disappear or would be marginalized
as a historical form of dancing. [we enough problems with mass culture, it
would be utmost foolish to introduce something that could make social
dancing even less attractive to the general public as it is now] Not to
mention, that social dancing always included the untalented as well, because
it was about socializing and not art. Of course there were times when the
social requirement was to perform dancing as a sort of art, in these times
untalented people spent a lot of time (and money) to learn the dance...
As for cultural elitism: in Hungary we a have great deal of it. That is why
it is so hard to bring people in to tango classes - even when tango stage
performances are packed full, with the house sold a month before
performance.
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
* * * * *
https://www.milonga.hu/
"Follow those who seek the truth.
Run from those who claim to have found it."
"There is more than one way to cook an omlette."
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:39:18 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
Interesting.
Obviously, not everybody can be above average.
But, there is a characteristic of many people in the US that I call
"pseudo self-esteem". People who think they are talented, when in
reality they are average. Sometimes there is the attitude of "It
should take me only 3 or 6 lessons or the slightly more-enlightened 3
- 6 months." You have a huge washout after the first month. They
wouldn't approach martial arts or skiing or engineering that way.
Retention and then actual success requires first convincing people
that they CAN succeed, but also that it will take time and effort.
Perhaps unrelated, but men in the US are not very likely to take
private lessons, in comparison with women who are much more willing
to pay for and dedicate themselves to private lessons. Are men just
cheap? Or do they simply refuse to ask for directions?
On the other hand, Immigrants from Eastern Europe or Russia seem to
be much more driven to succeed by applying themselves through hard
work. I notice everywhere I go in the US that we have greater
proportion of Eastern European tango dancers than you would expect
based on population.
Sergio isn't completely correct, as I have in fact seen "dancers of
little talent" in Argentina... and I'm not talking about foreigners
clogging up certain milongas.
You can also see the cultural clash when Argentines come to teach N.
Americans. They frequently have no idea how to translate Tango to
this culture. Sergio's suggestion partly explains this. Also, if they
are very talented, as their stage credentials demonstrate, learning
came so easy for them, that it is hard to understand the difficulties
of mere mortals.
On Oct 24, 2005, at 11:04 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> Lucia says: "Some people are born athletes. Some are not. Some are
> born
> dancers, some are
> not. These are natural traits, gifts, and one may not achieve the
> hoped for
> resultats, regardless of the effort put in."
>
> I can assure you that Lucia's view is shared by a great number of
> Argentines.
>
> When it comes to any artistic activity you are classified very
> early in life
> as having aptitude and then you are encouraged to study and perfect
> yourself or not having it and then you are discouraged and guided
> to do
> something else.
>
> People think that you are born with a genetical structure that
> will allow
> you to exhibit certain skills but you may, on the other hand,
> congenitally
> lack conditions to succeed in certain endeavors.
> ...
>
> I hope that this helps to understand, best regards, Sergio.
>
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:07:56 -1200
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
Tom Stermitz wrote
> Interesting.
>
> Obviously, not everybody can be above average.
>
Everybody is above average in Lake Wobegone, MN.
Michael
Washington, DC
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:54:42 -0600
From: Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck <paulnkaren@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
This post is from Karen:
No Sean, we won't just let that matter drop & go on to "the general
question." ;-)
Barbara states that their student is also a good friend. That, combined with
awareness of the problem by both student & teachers, clearly removes the
"ethical" issue. Still Lucia chose to challenge Barbara's integrity,
gratuitously IMO, cultural differences not aside.
The notion of all instructors auditioning students in the real world of
teaching a SOCIAL dance is unlikely (to be kind); if implemented I'd suspect
it had more to do with the instructor's ego: screening for the best &
brightest as evidence of their own "excellence" -- something of a hedged
bet?
In discussions with AT teachers re students who "don't get it" more than one
related holding back from "releasing a hopeless case" only to have that
student thank them later, saying that tango was the one thing that helped
them through a very difficult time in their lives. Anyone may surprise our
expectations; reminding ourselves of this keeps us humble.
Sending a student to someone else presumes certain conditions. One would be
that there is someone else to send them to (which is probably not the case
in Puerto Vallarta).
In communities with a number of AT instructors, I am wondering what kind of
hold Sean is imagining an instructor has over their student that would
prevent them from seeking other instruction if their current instruction
isn't working for them? I doubt they've signed an expensive contract, and
most class series are 6-8 sessions or less.
I've co-coordinated a weekly class (on-going, all levels, drop-in) for the
past 4 years. The few occasions we've suggested someone go elsewhere/leave
include: when we very strongly feel there's a bad match in temperament; when
someone is consistently argumentative or otherwise disruptive to others;
when their comments/behavior indicate a preference for different style of
dancing or teaching. We've had "hopeless cases" come back to us after months
elsewhere or dropping out altogether. Some progress (amazingly) on their
return & others may still (in our opinion) be hopeless, but as long as they
have the will to get it, we won't turn them away.
Karen Reck
Albuquerque, NM
https://www.tangodowntown.net
P.S. Susana Miller's arms or hands-linked-line-across-the-floor rhythmic
walking exercises are very effective. And as others have said, listening to
the music as often as possible is invaluable.
> Lucia post is characteristically provocative, but I hardly think it
> qualifies as trolling. She clearly identifies her perspective as "The
> Contrarian view". She raises a valid point about ethics. If people will cool
> their flame jets long enough to think the idea through, it is possible some
> useful discussion will emerge.
>
> Christopher has adequately defended Barbara's ethical honor in this regard.
> So how about we let that matter drop, and address the general question at
> the root of Lucias comment: At what point should a teacher send a student
> who has not shown significant progress to someone else? I think that in
> general, it ought to be much sooner than one year.
>
> Sean
>
> P.S. My own provocative thoughts: Everyone can be taught; it's just easier
> to teach people with a lot of natural talent. IMHO, If the student is not
> learning, it is the fault of the teacher. A teacher who auditions students
> recognizes his own limitations, and is doing a favor to those he does not
> have the ability to teach.
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:51:13 -0700
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
Dear Listoros, ...some quotes ==>
* The race is not always won by the fastest runner but sometimes by those who just keep on running.
* Life's battles don't always go / To the strongest or fastest man; / But sooner or later the man who wins / Is the man who thinks he can!
* A quitter never wins and a winner never quits"
Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck <paulnkaren@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:This post is from Karen:
No Sean, we won't just let that matter drop & go on to "the general
question." ;-)
Barbara states that their student is also a good friend. That, combined with
awareness of the problem by both student & teachers, clearly removes the
"ethical" issue. Still Lucia chose to challenge Barbara's integrity,
gratuitously IMO, cultural differences not aside.
The notion of all instructors auditioning students in the real world of
teaching a SOCIAL dance is unlikely (to be kind); if implemented I'd suspect
it had more to do with the instructor's ego: screening for the best &
brightest as evidence of their own "excellence" -- something of a hedged
bet?
In discussions with AT teachers re students who "don't get it" more than one
related holding back from "releasing a hopeless case" only to have that
student thank them later, saying that tango was the one thing that helped
them through a very difficult time in their lives. Anyone may surprise our
expectations; reminding ourselves of this keeps us humble.
Sending a student to someone else presumes certain conditions. One would be
that there is someone else to send them to (which is probably not the case
in Puerto Vallarta).
In communities with a number of AT instructors, I am wondering what kind of
hold Sean is imagining an instructor has over their student that would
prevent them from seeking other instruction if their current instruction
isn't working for them? I doubt they've signed an expensive contract, and
most class series are 6-8 sessions or less.
I've co-coordinated a weekly class (on-going, all levels, drop-in) for the
past 4 years. The few occasions we've suggested someone go elsewhere/leave
include: when we very strongly feel there's a bad match in temperament; when
someone is consistently argumentative or otherwise disruptive to others;
when their comments/behavior indicate a preference for different style of
dancing or teaching. We've had "hopeless cases" come back to us after months
elsewhere or dropping out altogether. Some progress (amazingly) on their
return & others may still (in our opinion) be hopeless, but as long as they
have the will to get it, we won't turn them away.
Karen Reck
Albuquerque, NM
https://www.tangodowntown.net
P.S. Susana Miller's arms or hands-linked-line-across-the-floor rhythmic
walking exercises are very effective. And as others have said, listening to
the music as often as possible is invaluable.
> Lucia post is characteristically provocative, but I hardly think it
> qualifies as trolling. She clearly identifies her perspective as "The
> Contrarian view". She raises a valid point about ethics. If people will cool
> their flame jets long enough to think the idea through, it is possible some
> useful discussion will emerge.
>
> Christopher has adequately defended Barbara's ethical honor in this regard.
> So how about we let that matter drop, and address the general question at
> the root of Lucias comment: At what point should a teacher send a student
> who has not shown significant progress to someone else? I think that in
> general, it ought to be much sooner than one year.
>
> Sean
>
> P.S. My own provocative thoughts: Everyone can be taught; it's just easier
> to teach people with a lot of natural talent. IMHO, If the student is not
> learning, it is the fault of the teacher. A teacher who auditions students
> recognizes his own limitations, and is doing a favor to those he does not
> have the ability to teach.
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:35:45 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A question of Ethics
I disagree. There is hope for the rhythmically challenged. It is
unethical to make promises you cannot keep, but also unethical to tell
someone they cannot learn something, when the only truth is that you
have not been able (or think you will be unable) to teach them.
I have seen people start with total inability to find rhythm in music
(even marching), let alone distinguishing tango rhythms. After good
teaching, commitment and time, they can suddenly 'find the music' and
start dancing tango musically - sometimes after years of effort.
Dancing tango does not require native talent. Talent will make it much
much easier and quicker, and increase the chance that you become
expert. People without existing dance skills, musicality, athleticism
etc can learn to dance tango well. I have seen it.
As for teachers auditioning students - well it depends what the teacher
wants to do. If you want to only produce exceptional dancers, then
audition. But an excellent teacher can teach almost anyone - though
they cannot teach everyone to be exceptional!
And almost anyone can teach an exceptional student.
my 2.2 c
Gary
who can dance tango a bit now
On 25/10/2005, at 11:11 AM, Lucia wrote:
>
>
> What amazes me is that you have continued teaching this person for one
> year, raising his hopes while being totally aware of his problem. The
> teachers that I know hold an audition for the prospective pupils, and
> reject those without talent.
>
> I consider this case being on the border of ethical behavior.
>
>
>
>> Dear listeros,
>> Al and I are struggling with a challenge we haven't met before. One of
>> our students seems to have absolutely no sense of rhythm. ...
