4203  I think that the nebula has lifted

Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 04:43:44 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] I think that the nebula has lifted
To: tango-l@mit.edu

When I read Derik's notes I knew he was upset about something but I was not
sure I quite understood the reason for his frustration; now after reading
Michael's last few notes I think I understand better.

When you exert an unjust tyranny, sooner or later there is going to be a
reaction that will oppose it, frequently not with moderation but like a
pendulum will shift in the opposite direction; to the other extreme.

We have many examples in society: China and Russia failed to adjust with the
times and kept their population in the middle ages, under tyrannical
exploitation well into the 20th century when many other countries had
changed to a more liberal form of government. The result was the terrible
communist revolutions that affected both countries: The pendulum shifted in
the opposite direction.

Here we have a tango community that apparently had been controlled by "close
embrace all the time dancers" who if I remember well used to write in the
list asserting that their's was the "real tango" the only one that could
offer all the benefits of the dance.

After long discussions on this list they finally accepted that tango has
many faces, many styles and they are all good and deserve respect but... the
same characters now come with the idea that "close embrace all the time" is
the only possible "social form of dancing tango".

Well, it seems that Derik was venting the frustration of a lot of people in
that community.

And...guess what he shifted the pendulum the other way. He brought Andres
Amarilla and started a group of Nuevo Tango dancers. If we were to accept
the description of Michael we have to accept that they are beginners in
that style....no problem they will continue to learn and they will become
good at it like anybody else.

Trina, (whom I know personally and had the pleasure of dancing with in close
and open embrace, is an excellent dancer and teacher), had the feeling that
Derik's was a "local" problem that had to be solved in his community but I
think that we all can learn something of this:

There are many tango styles as described many times before. When you "dance
socially" you do it following certain Etiquette rules: "the milonga codes".
It does not matter what style you dance; if you are able to follow those
rules, any social gathering to dance any style of tango is "Social dancing".

The gatherings can take place in a salon, a club, or a private home where
there is a celebration with a tango dance.

Summary: We have to abandon stupid dogmatism and finally accept the fact
that there are many styles of tango that deserve due respect.

....my final advise: careful because the pendulum may shift the other way
again.

Have sweet dreams, Sergio

For further information on the subject please see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Tango

Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:01:58 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] I think that the nebula has lifted
To: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>,
<tango-l@mit.edu>

Oh, no ! I think, now you did it, Sergio.
We had at last reached the point where I felt some hope that our "list
hog", the way I call him in my mind, as he has been hogging the list, and I
got several postings from him EVERY day for days in a row, might at last be
a little discouraged from posting like this.
Thank you Michael for outing on the list what is behind all this, and yes, I
vastly enjoyed Tine's response to this. I had been even weighing whether I
should contribute to the collection of donations proposed by Michael
Ditkoff, be it for a ticket to Paris, Galapagos or anywhere else.
And here comes Sergio, and I incredulously read him likening a small group
of close embrace dancers meeting in a little cafe once a week to the
communist regime of Russia and China. And as far as I recall, Sergio,
Michael Figart was never one of those on the list who militantly defended
close embrace as the only acceptable form of tango. He said, that he loves
to dance it, yes, but he was not getting on anyone's nerves about it, at
least not on mine, and I am not known for endless patience.
Well, Sergio, if this brings us another series of weeks or months of
receiving an avalanche of "utter guff" from our notorious list hog who you
now encouraged, it is all your fault.

Sorry, Derik, no hard feelings
Astrid

Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 00:19:41 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] I think that the nebula has lifted
To: tango-l@mit.edu


On May 2, 2006, at 10:43 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote:

> Here we have a tango community that apparently had been controlled
> by "close embrace all the time dancers" who if I remember well used
> to write in the list asserting that their's was the "real tango"
> the only one that could offer all the benefits of the dance.

Ummm...


Controlled communities a figment of the imagination?

What tango community are you talking about? I don't know of any tango
community that advocates or is controlled by "close-embrace all the
time" dancers. Can you name one tango community that has only one style?

I'm sure there are a few single-teacher communities. Some communities
only get one teacher from the nearest tango capital who presents only
one style. I have met people from some Midwest US communities who
have never seen milonguero. One teacher didn't know it existed.
Others didn't know what it was, but knew it was bad.

Personally, I have never seen a milonguero - only community.



Who ever said anything about the Real Tango?

I don't know of anyone who claims that "close-embrace is the real
tango". This accusation is called a "Strawman Argument". In other
words, make up a stupid or easily-contradicted assertion, attribute
it to someone, then repeatedly attack it. A few individuals on this
list have flogged that dead horse for years. (Google it, and you will
see it is always the same three or four people.)

It is true, that social tango in the US in the late 90s was
frequently danced at arms length, something that would be very
unusual in Buenos Aires. But, I've noticed in the past 5 years that
more-and-more salon dancers are dancing closer.


Authenticity?

Same thing happened with the authenticity strawman. Nobody ever
claimed that one style is authentic and another is not, yet you hear
that accusation being repeated. (Google it if you want). Authenticity
is about emotion, musicality, energy, and what tango FEELS like, not
about a style.

It is true that if you want the Argentine women to dance with you in
a tradtional milonga of Buenos Aires, then you need to make a study
of what it means to "dance like they do in argentina". With the huge
percentage of nuevo and show dancers traveling in the US, it is
possible to learn tango, without learning traditional social tango
"like in Buenos Aires".

Yes, I know you can go to Buenos Aires and study with teachers,
attend practices, learn a lot of tango (or not) and never set foot in
a traditional milonga. I've also heard that some of the milongas
these days are half-foreigner, but I didn't see that personally.



Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207

Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 23:29:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] I think that the nebula has lifted

Sean here. Sergio's observations make a lot of sense.
Trini and I experienced similar opposition from the
other side when we first introduced close embrace
dancing to Pittsburgh's entrenched open embrace
community. We were violently opposed, and we fought
back with the same tired authenticity canard. (A tip
of the fedora to Tom for the cool phraseology.) To
make a long story short, we now start our students in
a rhythmic milonguero style (Miller-onguero?), and
then introduce them to salon open and close. The other
group starts their students in open, and then
introduces close. Both groups are exploring nuevo.
Several other groups have formed and offer classes or
host practicas. 'Most everyone goes to the milongas,
where milonguero, salon and budding nuevo dancers all
share the ronda, and mostly respect each other. The
local clown (yes, there is one everywhere) "lo mande
de florero". He has been trained to do his silly
tricks in the center of the floor, out of the way of
dancers.

Happy dancing,

Sean


--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:

When you exert an unjust tyranny, sooner or later
there is going to be a reaction that will oppose it,
frequently not with moderation but like a pendulum
will shift in the opposite direction; to the other extreme.

Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 11:44 PM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] I think that the nebula has lifted

When I read Derik's notes I knew he was upset about something but I was
not
sure I quite understood the reason for his frustration; now after
reading
Michael's last few notes I think I understand better.

When you exert an unjust tyranny, sooner or later there is going to be a

reaction that will oppose it, frequently not with moderation but like a

pendulum will shift in the opposite direction; to the other extreme.

We have many examples in society: China and Russia failed to adjust with
the
times and kept their population in the middle ages, under tyrannical
exploitation well into the 20th century when many other countries had
changed to a more liberal form of government. The result was the
terrible
communist revolutions that affected both countries: The pendulum
shifted in
the opposite direction

Here we have a tango community that apparently had been controlled by
"close
embrace all the time dancers" who if I remember well used to write in
the
list asserting that their's was the "real tango" the only one that could

offer all the benefits of the dance.

After long discussions on this list they finally accepted that tango has

many faces, many styles and they are all good and deserve respect but...
the
same characters now come with the idea that "close embrace all the time"
is
the only possible "social form of dancing tango".

Well, it seems that Derik was venting the frustration of a lot of people
in
that community.

And...guess what he shifted the pendulum the other way. He brought
Andres
Amarilla and started a group of Nuevo Tango dancers. If we were to
accept
the description of Michael we have to accept that they are beginners in

that style....no problem they will continue to learn and they will
become
good at it like anybody else.

Trina, (whom I know personally and had the pleasure of dancing with in
close
and open embrace, is an excellent dancer and teacher), had the feeling
that
Derik's was a "local" problem that had to be solved in his community but
I
think that we all can learn something of this:

There are many tango styles as described many times before. When you
"dance
socially" you do it following certain Etiquette rules: "the milonga
codes".
It does not matter what style you dance; if you are able to follow those

rules, any social gathering to dance any style of tango is "Social
dancing".

The gatherings can take place in a salon, a club, or a private home
where
there is a celebration with a tango dance.

Summary: We have to abandon stupid dogmatism and finally accept the fact

that there are many styles of tango that deserve due respect.

....my final advise: careful because the pendulum may shift the other
way
again.