5208 Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:34:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Darlene Robertson <luv2dancetango@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hello All,
This is my first time posting... I don't like to be considered someone that "lurks" on the list without ever responding back... yes, I'm a bit of a voyeur. I enjoyed the Heel-Toe discussion that went on for far too long, etc. and was a bit dismayed that more of a discussion about "perverts" didn't linger longer. Such are the whims of a discussion list. Also, thankfully, most of us just have better things to do... like DANCE.
But I thought I'd give my answer to your question, Igor.
When I first started dancing tango a lot of women were nice and a lot weren't so nice to me. They have the basic societal issue of "competition" and were none too pleased there was yet another female to contend with. An attractive female the men wanted to dance with (no matter how unskilled I was) didn't help matters. I purposefully go out of my way to make sure that women, and especially attractive women, feel welcome and warm and accepted because of my lukewarm reception when I first started. I genuinely am happy to have them -- BTW, it doesn't matter what size you are, how old you are, how much money you have, etc. to be attractive. Just making the effort to look your best is all.
Here I am, a woman, about to tell you what I think men are up to. Sorry to burst some of your bubbles... we women are smarter than we look. We also may not be exactly right in all cases so this is just my opinion. Thanks for allowing me to share it.
Basically, men want to dance with attractive women that smell nice, are good conversationalists, etc. and make them feel good about themselves. When a guy is new, he doesn't have a clue about the "proper" embrace. A strong lead can take an inexperienced woman and make her look and FEEL great. A weak lead feels completely intimidated and like a blubbering idiot.
I have over many years invited, coerced and bribed (with the promise of a date, if you will, for some fellow that actually learned tango) many men to visit our community with the goal of adding them to the Argentine Tango herd. I have grabbed them from West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, Country/Western and my former boyfriend (before Tango became my "boyfriend"), Salsa. I've given free lessons, cheap lessons and encouraged them to go someplace else for group or private lessons, etc.
They're consensus? Gosh, I hope you're sitting down. They didn't like the music.
Okay, there, I've said it. Please don't get all your tailfeathers ruffled over yet another discussion about "traditional, alternative, neo, nuevo," etc. on me. This isn't about that well-worn topic. Of the 40 or so men, NONE liked the music. They danced the other stuff because it was what they could hear a beat to, or dance to without thinking or whatever. What does that tell me? These guys dance to get laid. The go to hold women. They're doing the same thing many of us single people are doing: they're looking for love. My fault that I didn't find a "dancer" amongst them -- I just didn't get that right!
Our AT is much more sacred than that. We cull the herd of the players pretty easily and quickly. You MUST become obsessed with the dance and to many of the men, they know they're goal was to meet a chick and move on to other things. How many of us know of a particular guy or gal that once they found someone (in whatever dance form / style it happened to be) they NEVER went to tango anymore? I can think of 3 couples from my former AT community. How many of us know a guy in our communities right now that really only dances tango as a means to find yet another vulnerable, gullible woman he has absolutely no intention of developing anything more serious with than an affair because he is a MILONGUERO in the worst possible way? And we "let" them do it because, dammit, they're good dancers!
Don't blame them. They have a goal. They've succeeded.
I always am excited when I meet a man that hasn't danced anything. He doesn't have any preconceived notions. These are our victims (oops, I mean... targets... oops, I mean... people of interest to focus our recruiting goals on).
We come to tango for many reasons.
We are the lucky ones that, for whatever reason we came to tango, FOUND tango. Who cares about finding the other things? Perhaps, we reason, we'll eventually find that. It is no longer the goal if it ever was.
When I was a cocktail waitress, in those crazy times known as the 80's, one particular evening a man, shirt open to the navel, hairy chest, gold chains, was "talking up" some women in my section. I came to their rescue and explained that since he came over to meet the women and he'd done just that, he should now move on. Well, he went and complained to the Owner (not just a bartender or manager, mind you -- I really ticked him off). The owner had a bit of a talk with me but did an about face when I simply explained to him my modus operandi -- I always concentrate on the women. If he doesn't have happy, attractive women in his establishment, he won't have any men. Folks, I didn't lose my job... lol ;)
Igor, this is the harsh reality of our societal existence: to "make tango more attractive to men" we just need to keep as many attractive females around. BTW, it wouldn't do us any harm to have really, hot, young, gorgeous men around, too, right ladies?
As for men that aren't masculine enough... yup. This is tricky. I don't like to dance with effeminate men that are spaghetti noodles. You guys know what I mean because I hear you men tell me about so-n-so women, etc. doing that exact same thing. I've worked with a few of my gay friends (from when I modeled, etc. -- not from dancing, okay?) to "butch" up their walk, etc. but they are just of the stubborn variety (like us all, duh!) that think someone should love them for who they are (how sophomoric, right?) -- kidding. I think what women don't want is a guy that thinks he's straight that really is gay lurking (there's that word again) in tango parlors. We want men that are men that are good dancers.
Men want women that are women that are good dancers.
Bottom line: there's no easy answer here.
We already have alternative tango nights. We play stuff that borders on undanceable to the DIEHARD traditionalists (you know, the dancers that, more than likely have been to our sacred Buenos Aires and so therefore, "know" what tango really is, the ones that have completely forgotten what it was like when they first started dancing and someone was kind enough to focus on music they knew or could easily find a beat to, the ones that maybe were given patterns, the ones who now REFUSE to dance to alternative or with beginners). You people MAY be responsible for keeping tango elitist, snobbish, incestuous and inbred by sticking to your guns on this... maybe not.)
Maybe patterns are easier for our beginning men so we need to remember to listen to our students to find out what they need. I wasn't taught patterns until I started going to group lessons. Until then, all I did was dance.
Better dancers need to dance with beginners... both leaders and followers. Make people comfortable and feel welcome.
I owe a debt of gratitude to all the dancers before me. I don't have as much experience (only dancing AT 6 years). I try to be open-minded... thinking one day I may be exactly like them and unable to bring myself to dance ever again with a beginner -- I'm almost there, folks, really (and fearful of that, you have no idea). You'd have to know me to know my intentions with tango... but, generally speaking, being elitist isn't it.
I hope to see many of you at the Portland Tango Fest!
Abrazos,
Darlene
www.myspace.com/luv2dancetango
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 11:33:11 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Oct 2, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Darlene Robertson wrote:
> Hello All,
> ...
> I have over many years invited, coerced and bribed (with the
> promise of a date, if you will, for some fellow that actually
> learned tango) many men to visit our community with the goal of
> adding them to the Argentine Tango herd. I have grabbed them from
> West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, Country/Western and my former
> boyfriend (before Tango became my "boyfriend"), Salsa. I've given
> free lessons, cheap lessons and encouraged them to go someplace
> else for group or private lessons, etc.
>
> They're consensus? Gosh, I hope you're sitting down. They
> didn't like the music.
>
> Okay, there, I've said it. Please don't get all your
> tailfeathers ruffled over yet another discussion about
> "traditional, alternative, neo, nuevo," etc. on me. This isn't
> about that well-worn topic. Of the 40 or so men, NONE liked the
> music. They danced the other stuff because it was what they could
> hear a beat to, or dance to without thinking or whatever. What
> does that tell me? These guys dance to get laid. The go to hold
> women. They're doing the same thing many of us single people are
> doing: they're looking for love. My fault that I didn't find a
> "dancer" amongst them -- I just didn't get that right!
>
> Abrazos,
>
> Darlene
Thanks for this Darlene,
I liked all your comments, but in particular you make an important
point that so many men DON'T LIKE THE MUSIC (at first, I presume).
This is strongly related to the other two points: LACK OF CONFIDENCE
and RETENTION OF GUYS.
I define advanced tango as "simple things done well", but that is
also a definition of confident tango.
We've been throwing around the terms feminine and masculine, and
those are useful but loaded terms. A more specific and easier to
address issue is to address CONFIDENCE or lack thereof. Yes, tango
requires masculine guys, but at the basic level it isn't that these
guys aren't masculine. They feel tentative because they aren't
confident. Tango requires (the follower requires), that the man
proposes an idea, a step a sequence of steps or whatever. This is
daunting for the men at first, and the crux of the problem is
confidence vs uncertainty.
I've taught for ten years, which is important because I've tried and
abandoned many things with a specific goal of creating better
retention of the men. Women are important, but they have more
patience, can learn quickly in privates, and in general have an
easier time with tangoat the beginning. Retain the men, and we'll
retain the women.
In my experience, the single most important driver for retaining the
guys is whether they feel confident. Secondly, the foundation for
confidence is understanding the music. You can draw a big fat arrow:
MUSICALITY => CONFIDENCE => RETENTION => HAPPY WOMEN.
Teaching Musicality.
So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the
beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat
and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign
genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they
have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements
relate to it.
Musicality is when your energy matches the musical energy, the surge
at the beginning of the phrase, the suspension at the end, the flow
and "wave" of the waltz, the staccatto of D'Arienzo, the walk of Di
Sarli, the drama of Pugliese.
Confidence is when you just know what to do in your bones.
I'm sometimes accused of "just teaching walking" because I present
tango steps or vocabulary more slowly than some teachers, but that is
a misunderstanding because I'm teaching a MUSICAL way of walking,
which some might call dancing.
It is no wonder that some dancers like alternative music because they
can hear it, move to it be inspired by it. Watch a North American
dance to blues or R&B. That is the "music of our people"; it makes
sense to us, we can just feel what to do. In fact I use alternative
precisely for this quality of creating confidence... "Hmmm, I guess I
CAN dance".
Teaching steps.
Steps? Steps don't equal tango; steps are just the things you do once
you know tango. This is perhaps why in Argentina you can start with
the steps. Culturally, they already know tango, what is sounds like,
looks like, feels like, so they just need to know what to do.
I know, you have teachers who present lots and lots of steps. This is
so typical of new teachers and Intermediate dancers. Let me show you!
This is an ocho, this is a volcada, this is a shoe shine, this is a
whoop-de-do. They are teaching at the level they are learning, not
the level where a beginner is learning.
Teaching lots of steps keeps the guys in a constant state of un-
confidence and un-ability. It is deceptive, perhaps. They feel like
they are learning, and maybe they keep taking classes always seeking
the answer. But what is the question? CONFIDENCE, not stuff. These
guys end up long-term intermediates randomly zig-zagging around the
middle of the floor. I've tried to teach some of the musicality, and
they just don't get it because their brain is so full of stuff, that
they can't comprehend the essence.
Look at milongas or practicas in communities dominated by fancy tango
(nuevo, fantasy, neo, non). You have lots of women, and not so many men.
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Denver, CO
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 11:43:10 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
"This guy says, "I'm perfect for you, 'cause I'm a cross between a
macho man and a sensitive man." I said, "Oh, a gay trucker?""
[]
Judy Tenuta
At 11:33 AM 10/2/2007, Tom Stermitz wrote:
>On Oct 2, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Darlene Robertson wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> > ...
> > I have over many years invited, coerced and bribed (with the
> > promise of a date, if you will, for some fellow that actually
> > learned tango) many men to visit our community with the goal of
> > adding them to the Argentine Tango herd. I have grabbed them from
> > West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, Country/Western and my former
> > boyfriend (before Tango became my "boyfriend"), Salsa. I've given
> > free lessons, cheap lessons and encouraged them to go someplace
> > else for group or private lessons, etc.
> >
> > They're consensus? Gosh, I hope you're sitting down. They
> > didn't like the music.
> >
> > Okay, there, I've said it. Please don't get all your
> > tailfeathers ruffled over yet another discussion about
> > "traditional, alternative, neo, nuevo," etc. on me. This isn't
> > about that well-worn topic. Of the 40 or so men, NONE liked the
> > music. They danced the other stuff because it was what they could
> > hear a beat to, or dance to without thinking or whatever. What
> > does that tell me? These guys dance to get laid. The go to hold
> > women. They're doing the same thing many of us single people are
> > doing: they're looking for love. My fault that I didn't find a
> > "dancer" amongst them -- I just didn't get that right!
> >
> > Abrazos,
> >
> > Darlene
>
>Thanks for this Darlene,
>
>I liked all your comments, but in particular you make an important
>point that so many men DON'T LIKE THE MUSIC (at first, I presume).
>This is strongly related to the other two points: LACK OF CONFIDENCE
>and RETENTION OF GUYS.
>
>I define advanced tango as "simple things done well", but that is
>also a definition of confident tango.
>
>We've been throwing around the terms feminine and masculine, and
>those are useful but loaded terms. A more specific and easier to
>address issue is to address CONFIDENCE or lack thereof. Yes, tango
>requires masculine guys, but at the basic level it isn't that these
>guys aren't masculine. They feel tentative because they aren't
>confident. Tango requires (the follower requires), that the man
>proposes an idea, a step a sequence of steps or whatever. This is
>daunting for the men at first, and the crux of the problem is
>confidence vs uncertainty.
>
>I've taught for ten years, which is important because I've tried and
>abandoned many things with a specific goal of creating better
>retention of the men. Women are important, but they have more
>patience, can learn quickly in privates, and in general have an
>easier time with tangoat the beginning. Retain the men, and we'll
>retain the women.
>
>In my experience, the single most important driver for retaining the
>guys is whether they feel confident. Secondly, the foundation for
>confidence is understanding the music. You can draw a big fat arrow:
>
>MUSICALITY => CONFIDENCE => RETENTION => HAPPY WOMEN.
>
>
>Teaching Musicality.
>
>So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the
>beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat
>and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign
>genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they
>have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements
>relate to it.
>
>Musicality is when your energy matches the musical energy, the surge
>at the beginning of the phrase, the suspension at the end, the flow
>and "wave" of the waltz, the staccatto of D'Arienzo, the walk of Di
>Sarli, the drama of Pugliese.
>
>Confidence is when you just know what to do in your bones.
>
>I'm sometimes accused of "just teaching walking" because I present
>tango steps or vocabulary more slowly than some teachers, but that is
>a misunderstanding because I'm teaching a MUSICAL way of walking,
>which some might call dancing.
>
>It is no wonder that some dancers like alternative music because they
>can hear it, move to it be inspired by it. Watch a North American
>dance to blues or R&B. That is the "music of our people"; it makes
>sense to us, we can just feel what to do. In fact I use alternative
>precisely for this quality of creating confidence... "Hmmm, I guess I
>CAN dance".
>
>
>Teaching steps.
>
>Steps? Steps don't equal tango; steps are just the things you do once
>you know tango. This is perhaps why in Argentina you can start with
>the steps. Culturally, they already know tango, what is sounds like,
>looks like, feels like, so they just need to know what to do.
>
>I know, you have teachers who present lots and lots of steps. This is
>so typical of new teachers and Intermediate dancers. Let me show you!
>This is an ocho, this is a volcada, this is a shoe shine, this is a
>whoop-de-do. They are teaching at the level they are learning, not
>the level where a beginner is learning.
>
>Teaching lots of steps keeps the guys in a constant state of un-
>confidence and un-ability. It is deceptive, perhaps. They feel like
>they are learning, and maybe they keep taking classes always seeking
>the answer. But what is the question? CONFIDENCE, not stuff. These
>guys end up long-term intermediates randomly zig-zagging around the
>middle of the floor. I've tried to teach some of the musicality, and
>they just don't get it because their brain is so full of stuff, that
>they can't comprehend the essence.
>
>Look at milongas or practicas in communities dominated by fancy tango
>(nuevo, fantasy, neo, non). You have lots of women, and not so many men.
>
>
>
>
>Tom Stermitz
>https://www.tango.org
>Denver, CO
>
>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:40:23 -0400
From: "Endzone 102" <endzone102@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<694bf47d0710021140h694a58bfg588296a2e8e58387@mail.gmail.com>
On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
>
>
> Teaching Musicality.
>
> So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the
> beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat
> and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign
> genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they
> have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements
> relate to it.
>
> Musicality is when your energy matches the musical energy, the surge
> at the beginning of the phrase, the suspension at the end, the flow
> and "wave" of the waltz, the staccatto of D'Arienzo, the walk of Di
> Sarli, the drama of Pugliese.
This tends to be the thing I find most guys around here struggle with.
In ballroom dances, there's a known timing that you can find in the music.
With Argentine Tango, there isn't. AT is more about feeling the music.
That's a difficult concept to get across sometimes, especially when you're
also trying to teach them how tango works. This gets more problematic when
the music branches out away from traditional tango music.
-Greg G
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:07:17 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Usually, I shy away from posting on Tango-L but what Tom Stermitz wrote
about equating masculinity to confidence was so bang on and astute that I
had to pipe in and say "yes! that's all one needs to find masculinity -
confidence."
My least favourite leaders are the tentative insecure ones. Their leading is
weak. Weak core, spaghetti arms, muddy cues, weak axis, weak balance, weak
grounding. They either are too weak or too aggressive in their leading, both
signs of lack of confidence.
So, essentially, weakness in leading is not masculine. Lack of confidence is
not masculine. Worse of all are leaders who can't stop apologizing. Please
just cut that out. A simple squeeze or stroke is more than apology enough.
Signed,
One who "has been to our sacred Buenos Aires and so therefore, "know" what
tango really is".
Enter to win a night a VIP night out at TIFF
https://redcarpet.sympatico.msn.ca/
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:30:44 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
I understand there is a problem, but disagree that it has to be a
problem.
Argentine Tango seems so improvisational and flexible that you can't
find the structure. Specifically, the phrasing structure of Tango is 4
+4=8. This is easy count and easy to match with simple steps. But
when you have too many steps, you lose the musicality. That is why it
is so hard to teach musicality to intermediate and advanced dancers.
The cool thing is: IT IS VERY EASY TO TEACH MUSICALITY TO BEGINNERS.
On Oct 2, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Endzone 102 wrote:
> On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Teaching Musicality.
>>
>> So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the
>> beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat
>> and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign
>> genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they
>> have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements
>> relate to it.
>>
>> Musicality is when your energy matches the musical energy, the surge
>> at the beginning of the phrase, the suspension at the end, the flow
>> and "wave" of the waltz, the staccatto of D'Arienzo, the walk of Di
>> Sarli, the drama of Pugliese.
>
>
> This tends to be the thing I find most guys around here struggle
> with.
> In ballroom dances, there's a known timing that you can find in the
> music.
> With Argentine Tango, there isn't. AT is more about feeling the
> music.
> That's a difficult concept to get across sometimes, especially when
> you're
> also trying to teach them how tango works. This gets more
> problematic when
> the music branches out away from traditional tango music.
>
> -Greg G
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:35:52 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Thanks for recognizing the point I wanted to make.
Let's start with confidence, and then masculine might mean something
additional. That additional could be very interesting, but I think it
is more subtle, complicated and cultural. Confidence as a foundation
allows us to go on to other aspects of masculinity.
Also, Femininity isn't about sugar and spice and pinkness. It is more
of a diva-like quality. But, that is a different topic.... maybe.
On Oct 2, 2007, at 1:07 PM, Caroline Polack wrote:
> So, essentially, weakness in leading is not masculine. Lack of
> confidence is
> not masculine. Worse of all are leaders who can't stop apologizing.
> Please
> just cut that out. A simple squeeze or stroke is more than apology
> enough.
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:49:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective - strong
lead, no arms, etc.
To: tango-l@mit.edu
--- Darlene Robertson <luv2dancetango@yahoo.com> wrote:
When a guy is new, he
> doesn't have a clue about the "proper" embrace. A strong
> lead can take an inexperienced woman and make her look
> and FEEL great. A weak lead feels completely intimidated
> and like a blubbering idiot.
Shudder. There's that phrase "strong lead", again! I was
too busy to put in my 2 cents worth last week, so here it
is. Choosing words is extremely important since they can
connote different things to different people. I find that
"strong" implies the use of strength, which is something I
dislike in a lead. Tell a beginning male that a lead needs
to be strong and he's likely to think of pulling or pushing
the woman into place. (And it can suggest to the woman
that she needs to be pushed into place.)
A "clear lead" is what is needed and connotes a better
sense of the masculinity desired in tango (as opposed to a
big bruiser of a linebacker, for example).
What is a "clear lead"? It's simply when every part of the
man tell the woman the same thing. His chest, his arms,
his hands, his earlobes, etc. send her the same message.
This is masculine. This is not the wishy washiness of the
chest saying one thing and the arms saying another thing
and the hands saying yet something else.
Which is why leading with no arms is helpful as an
exercise. It's hard for men to learn to control different
body parts all at once. Much easier for them to master
control over their chest first if they also don't have to
worry about their arms and their hands.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 01:25:32 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: Endzone 102 <endzone102@gmail.com>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hi Greg,
I'm always puzzled by statements such as yours. I appreciate your contribution and courage to post your opinion, but I have to wonder what tango music you are talking about.... Maybe you are trying to find a steady, easy to follow beat to the music of Hugo Diaz' harmonica.... Otherwise I cannot believe that you can say that there is no known timing in Argentine tango music. ...The beat of danceable tango music is so pronounced and overpowering that you have to dance rhythmically.... The 4x4 and 2x4 of the tango is incredibly strong. Milonga and vals are also extremely rhythmical and the beat or timing is very easy to feel...
Still, I do believe you. I've met a number of guys and women who have the hardest time finding the rhythm of the tango. I don't know what it is, but some folks just have a hard time with music... I've taught in many classes by having the people tap their foot to the strong beats in tango, I've had them snap their fingers and even clap their hands to the beat. They seem to get it, but immediately after the exercise, they dance completely off the beat. It's amazing really, I wish there was something that could be taken or inhaled to make the beat accessible to more people... Please, try listening to Rodriguez of the 50's, Darienzo from the 30's and 40's, and definitely good old Di Sarli from the 50's. If you don't hear the the timing pretty soon, please go to some teachers and ask them to work with you to help you find and use the beat of the tango. I guarantee you that there is so much rhythm in tango that it's practically impossible to ignore.
Cheers,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:40:23 -0400
> From: endzone102@gmail.com
> This tends to be the thing I find most guys around here struggle with.
> In ballroom dances, there's a known timing that you can find in the music.
> With Argentine Tango, there isn't. AT is more about feeling the music.
> That's a difficult concept to get across sometimes, especially when you're
> also trying to teach them how tango works. This gets more problematic when
> the music branches out away from traditional tango music.
>
> -Greg G
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:38:09 +1000
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA014F2EA888@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Greg,
If you find dancing to the rhythm difficult you could try dancing to the melody instead. Personally I find that more difficult, but I think followers like it because there are a lot more pauses and slow steps for them to embellish. Just try listening for the voice or the violins and go with that part. A good song to try would be something like Pasional.
In terms of finding the rhythm, try anything by D'Arienzo, Biagi or Rodr?guez where the beat is pretty strong. I would defy anyone not to find the rhythm in El Recodo where Biagi must have told his piano player to beat the piano like a drum. Plus it is one of the best tracks for dancing anyway. I just wish someone would invent a time machine so I could go back and hear those guys live.
Victor Bennetts
-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of WHITE 95 R
Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2007 3:26 PM
To: Endzone 102; Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
Hi Greg,
I'm always puzzled by statements such as yours. I appreciate your contribution and courage to post your opinion, but I have to wonder what tango music you are talking about.... Maybe you are trying to find a steady, easy to follow beat to the music of Hugo Diaz' harmonica.... Otherwise I cannot believe that you can say that there is no known timing in Argentine tango music. ...The beat of danceable tango music is so pronounced and overpowering that you have to dance rhythmically.... The 4x4 and 2x4 of the tango is incredibly strong. Milonga and vals are also extremely rhythmical and the beat or timing is very easy to feel...
Still, I do believe you. I've met a number of guys and women who have the hardest time finding the rhythm of the tango. I don't know what it is, but some folks just have a hard time with music... I've taught in many classes by having the people tap their foot to the strong beats in tango, I've had them snap their fingers and even clap their hands to the beat. They seem to get it, but immediately after the exercise, they dance completely off the beat. It's amazing really, I wish there was something that could be taken or inhaled to make the beat accessible to more people... Please, try listening to Rodriguez of the 50's, Darienzo from the 30's and 40's, and definitely good old Di Sarli from the 50's. If you don't hear the the timing pretty soon, please go to some teachers and ask them to work with you to help you find and use the beat of the tango. I guarantee you that there is so much rhythm in tango that it's practically impossible to ignore.
Cheers,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:40:23 -0400
> From: endzone102@gmail.com
> This tends to be the thing I find most guys around here struggle with.
> In ballroom dances, there's a known timing that you can find in the music.
> With Argentine Tango, there isn't. AT is more about feeling the music.
> That's a difficult concept to get across sometimes, especially when you're
> also trying to teach them how tango works. This gets more problematic when
> the music branches out away from traditional tango music.
>
> -Greg G
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:09:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Good suggestions, Victor.
I'd also suggest Francisco Canaro to find the rhythm.
IMHO, no other orchestra is clearer and with such
consistency of music.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
> If you find dancing to the rhythm difficult you could try
> dancing to the melody instead. Personally I find that
> more difficult, but I think followers like it because
> there are a lot more pauses and slow steps for them to
> embellish. Just try listening for the voice or the
> violins and go with that part. A good song to try would
> be something like Pasional.
>
> In terms of finding the rhythm, try anything by
> D'Arienzo, Biagi or Rodr?guez where the beat is pretty
> strong. I would defy anyone not to find the rhythm in El
> Recodo where Biagi must have told his piano player to
> beat the piano like a drum. Plus it is one of the best
> tracks for dancing anyway. I just wish someone would
> invent a time machine so I could go back and hear those
> guys live.
>
> Victor Bennetts
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 04:22 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Manuel wrote:
> I've taught in many classes by having the people tap their foot to the
> strong beats in tango, I've had them snap their fingers and even clap
> their hands to the beat. They seem to get it, but immediately after
> the exercise, they dance completely off the beat. It's amazing really,
More amazing is the number of class teachers that continue to use this
bankrupt method even after having noticed how ineffective it is.
> I wish there was something that could be taken or inhaled to make the
> beat accessible to more people...
There is such a thing, Manuel. It is called dancing.
You dance with them. You feel the beat, they feel you, and through the
connection they get to feel the beat.
--
Chris
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 01:54:00 -0400
From: "Bruno Afonso" <bafonso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<4f5d14730710032254j686c914fue7cffa32dc1b4c6b@mail.gmail.com>
Hi,
I believe you always need to take into account how much each person
you are teaching actually "knows and breathes" music.
There's a couple of aspects that are important to me:
1) A good leader should be able to interpret the music and dance
accordingly. (let's assume for now that the person has basic skills to
do that). One of the hardest part is to transmit that interpretation
to the follower in a non-imposing way. It's hard to search for
alternatives interpretations when it is not working with the follower
while you are in the middle of the music. But that's why we need to
practice more :-) Getting to know more and more the follower helps of
course.
2) Interpreting music at a non-basic level. After a while it's easy to
dance to the beat, as in a step in a beat or similar. The hard part is
to start playing with the beat. This playing w/ the beat allows you to
"flow" through the music and be creative and putting those flashy
moves of 15 "steps" in a musical context. One can imprint a slight
vals flavor in a normal 4/4 by swinging 3 on 1 beat or on 2. Why not
go for 3 + 2 and get a salsa'esq flavor for an instant?
When I started out I was amazed at how people could dance/ do moves
not on the rhythm. But I've learned that definitely not a lot of
people have the background experience to actually understand what's
happening at a rhythmical level or even tonal or timbric. We're all
different and we all can improve in multiple dimensions. The more we
listen and dance, the better we will get at it.
I've found that some followers don't enjoy so much as others when I
play a bit and don't do a "standard" interpretation. Others say they
love it. That's the tao of any human interaction I guess :-) I'll go
back to lurking mode.
peace
b
On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> I understand there is a problem, but disagree that it has to be a
> problem.
>
> Argentine Tango seems so improvisational and flexible that you can't
> find the structure. Specifically, the phrasing structure of Tango is 4
> +4=8. This is easy count and easy to match with simple steps. But
> when you have too many steps, you lose the musicality. That is why it
> is so hard to teach musicality to intermediate and advanced dancers.
>
> The cool thing is: IT IS VERY EASY TO TEACH MUSICALITY TO BEGINNERS.
>
>
> On Oct 2, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Endzone 102 wrote:
>
> > On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Teaching Musicality.
> >>
> >> So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the
> >> beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat
> >> and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign
> >> genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they
> >> have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements
> >> relate to it.
> >>
> >> Musicality is when your energy matches the musical energy, the surge
> >> at the beginning of the phrase, the suspension at the end, the flow
> >> and "wave" of the waltz, the staccatto of D'Arienzo, the walk of Di
> >> Sarli, the drama of Pugliese.
> >
> >
> > This tends to be the thing I find most guys around here struggle
> > with.
> > In ballroom dances, there's a known timing that you can find in the
> > music.
> > With Argentine Tango, there isn't. AT is more about feeling the
> > music.
> > That's a difficult concept to get across sometimes, especially when
> > you're
> > also trying to teach them how tango works. This gets more
> > problematic when
> > the music branches out away from traditional tango music.
> >
> > -Greg G
>
>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 01:54:00 -0400
From: "Bruno Afonso" <bafonso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<4f5d14730710032254j686c914fue7cffa32dc1b4c6b@mail.gmail.com>
Hi,
I believe you always need to take into account how much each person
you are teaching actually "knows and breathes" music.
There's a couple of aspects that are important to me:
1) A good leader should be able to interpret the music and dance
accordingly. (let's assume for now that the person has basic skills to
do that). One of the hardest part is to transmit that interpretation
to the follower in a non-imposing way. It's hard to search for
alternatives interpretations when it is not working with the follower
while you are in the middle of the music. But that's why we need to
practice more :-) Getting to know more and more the follower helps of
course.
2) Interpreting music at a non-basic level. After a while it's easy to
dance to the beat, as in a step in a beat or similar. The hard part is
to start playing with the beat. This playing w/ the beat allows you to
"flow" through the music and be creative and putting those flashy
moves of 15 "steps" in a musical context. One can imprint a slight
vals flavor in a normal 4/4 by swinging 3 on 1 beat or on 2. Why not
go for 3 + 2 and get a salsa'esq flavor for an instant?
When I started out I was amazed at how people could dance/ do moves
not on the rhythm. But I've learned that definitely not a lot of
people have the background experience to actually understand what's
happening at a rhythmical level or even tonal or timbric. We're all
different and we all can improve in multiple dimensions. The more we
listen and dance, the better we will get at it.
I've found that some followers don't enjoy so much as others when I
play a bit and don't do a "standard" interpretation. Others say they
love it. That's the tao of any human interaction I guess :-) I'll go
back to lurking mode.
peace
b
On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> I understand there is a problem, but disagree that it has to be a
> problem.
>
> Argentine Tango seems so improvisational and flexible that you can't
> find the structure. Specifically, the phrasing structure of Tango is 4
> +4=8. This is easy count and easy to match with simple steps. But
> when you have too many steps, you lose the musicality. That is why it
> is so hard to teach musicality to intermediate and advanced dancers.
>
> The cool thing is: IT IS VERY EASY TO TEACH MUSICALITY TO BEGINNERS.
>
>
> On Oct 2, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Endzone 102 wrote:
>
> > On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Teaching Musicality.
> >>
> >> So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the
> >> beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat
> >> and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign
> >> genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they
> >> have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements
> >> relate to it.
> >>
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:58:26 -0300 (ART)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
To: Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Achhh.. The pleasures of dancing with a weak man.....
Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com> escribi?: Usually, I shy away from posting on Tango-L but what Tom Stermitz wrote
about equating masculinity to confidence was so bang on and astute that I
had to pipe in and say "yes! that's all one needs to find masculinity -
confidence."
My least favourite leaders are the tentative insecure ones. Their leading is
weak. Weak core, spaghetti arms, muddy cues, weak axis, weak balance, weak
grounding. They either are too weak or too aggressive in their leading, both
signs of lack of confidence.
So, essentially, weakness in leading is not masculine. Lack of confidence is
not masculine. Worse of all are leaders who can't stop apologizing. Please
just cut that out. A simple squeeze or stroke is more than apology enough.
Signed,
One who "has been to our sacred Buenos Aires and so therefore, "know" what
tango really is".
Enter to win a night a VIP night out at TIFF
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