237 Impressing Women
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 02:14:32 -0700
From: "Larry E. Carroll" <larrydla@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Impressing Women
A lot of men try to impress their partners (even the very first time
they dance with them!) by showing off all the figures they know,
including very acrobatic ones. This preening behavior must work to
some extent; it seems to be encoded in our genes.
I try to impress my partner another way. Instead of showing how good a
dancer I am, I show her how good a dancer SHE is.
But before you can insure she always dances well, you have to know
what she can do. I start with the simplest possible figure, that left-
right twisting of the upper body called the zarandeo, using it to judge
her embrace and adjust my own to her as needed. I may do a few
cadencias (steps in place) to feel how she follows - even if I have
danced with her for years. (Maybe she is tired or depressed or
otherwise not herself.)
For me THE BASIC is the walk, straight, curved, or in circles. I often
start doing that. There is a complete subtle universe in the simplest
figures.
For one thing, being exactly on the beat is satisfying. So is being in
the melody, such a part of the music that it feels as if the music is
dancing you. Also satisfying is exactly the right embrace - which can
change depending on the music. If the music has a darkly dramatic
sound, you can express this with a tighter embrace, longer steps, and
abrupt changes of direction. You can also use your upper body to
express the music, all the way from keeping it perfectly still to
fairly emphatic moves. All this (and more) is part of the language of
dance. Some of it is so subtle it is subliminal.
You can find out a lot about your dance partner with the basic walk.
What is her reaction time to a change in direction? How good is her
body control? Is she balanced over her feet? Is her embrace too rigid,
too flexible? And so on.
You can do a forward rock step with a half turn, then walk backwards
along the line of dance. Her reaction to the direction reverse tells
you something. So does how well she walks forward. (Of course you make
sure there is no one behind you while you are walking backward. It
would NOT impress her to crash into someone!)
Ochos are also very revealing. If she's new to tango, you can do
underturned ochos (which creates a zig-zag figure) and work up to
standard ochos. If she seems experienced, you might try standard ochos
then overturned ochos.
This evaluation may take place in just a few seconds. Or much longer.
Nor is it the only thing you will be doing. It may not even be a
conscious effort. Because you are dancing, not doing a clinical
procedure.
Usually I work gradually up the level of difficulty. So that she makes
no mistakes or very minor ones. This I hope will make her feel good
about her abilities, and feel safe dancing with me.
For any number of reasons you may not do anything beyond the
boundaries of what you believe she can do. For instance, when I danced
a couple of months ago with someone who told me she had recently lost
her father and she was missing him that night, it felt right to treat
her very gently, do nothing demanding, simply hold her and move simply
to the music.
But many women love a challenge. If you have succeeded in making your
partner unafraid of making mistakes, you might begin to push her
beyond her boundaries (but not too far beyond). You then become
co-conspirators, mistakes simply something that happens when you
play, and the recovery from mistakes an exhilarating experience.
And maybe several years from now a woman, a total stranger, will ask
you to dance. She dances very well and you have a great time.
And she says "I remember you from X's milonga. Do you remember me?"
And of course you will lie and say "I remember." And she says "I was
so depressed about my dancing. You made me feel so wonderful, like I
could do anything."
Larry de Los Angeles
https://home.att.com/~larrydla
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:53:37 -0700
From: JFA in Montreal <jf_avon@FREEDOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Impressing Women
On Fri, 21 Sep 2001 02:14:32 -0700, Larry E. Carroll wrote:
>I try to impress my partner another way. Instead of showing how good a
>dancer I am, I show her how good a dancer SHE is.
Dear Larry.
I am new to tango, having finished Level 1 and still unable to move around.
While some people are said to not be able to walk while chewing gum, I
personnally feel difficulty to walk if I had gum in the preceeding 24 hours...
Nevertheless, I'm eager and will persist in my efforts at learning tango, in
parts because posts like yours keep me focused on the ultimate goal
rather than on the mechanical aspects.
Your posts are, IMHO, gems that go straight to the bottom line of what that
fantastic metaphor we call 'tango' is.
Thanks for posting them !
Jean-François (in Montreal)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:00:47 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Impressing Women
Hi Friends,
Here's a quick (opinionated) interjection to Larry's note.
In the rituals and "conversation" of tango, neither sex has
a monopoly on trying to impress the other. I believe that
superficial, selfish following is as common as egotistical
leading. If the dance is a projection of our personalities,
then it can not be otherwise. However, I've observed with
good friends that "dance chemistry" is different from whatever
chemistry enables or disables personal relationships. If we
get along well with somebody, that doesn't mean we will be
able to dance well with them - and vice versa. I personally
find little gallantry in leading some kind of sugar-coated showcase.
With tango chemistry, you can tell most of what you need to
know even before the dance begins. When it seems that there
is a barrier of pretense and/or a fragile ego, then the "dance
chemistry" is being replaced by "personal relationship
chemistry" and Larry's suggestions seem quite appropriate.
But the best partners and their dances start with the music
and the relationship that matters is built by and within the
music. I hope we all recognize that our tango friends - and
dear, close-to-the-heart friends they can be - are made and
maintained on a level that is uniquely different from our other
associates. When the music starts I want to forget about
everything except an unpretentious musical conversation with
my partner. Then the experiments with our 'dance chemistry set'
are sure to be fun.
Abrazos,
Frank in Minneapolis
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:42:13 -0700
From: Ed Heede <cynthiab7@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: FW: Impressing Women
Hi Larry,
I have just joined this email list and am happy my first email is the
subject you've chosen; "Impressing Women".
In noting all you wrote on the subject I can't agree more with your
viewpoint. Having danced with you many a time I can vouch for the comfort
and ease I feel you provide in your approach to the dance.
Many women have been the victim of being taken for a roller coaster ride
while the man tries out every step he has learned all in one 3 or 4
minute
dance. This may be great exercise for the man but pity some of the women
who
have to do all they can to keep up. Don't get me wrong I love a challenge
and I appreciate that challenge after I have danced a few warm up dances
with especially a stranger. Off the cuff, a couple of the most memorable
impressions I can remember in my 9 or 10 years of dancing Tango are
these:
- When a man relaxes enough in his dancing, that I feel I will not be
forced
into the next step until the last step is completed.
- I love when a step "works" well with a particular dancer and we get to
do
the step again in the course of the dance, that's a treat.
- When a man stays true to his lead, without forcing the issue. i.e.not
pushing or shoving a woman into a step when he feels hesitation from her
or
that the step may not be working out well with a particular woman, maybe
she
cannot feel the lead. Instead he initiates the step and lets it flow, if
there is hesitation or trouble, let the moment go and maybe try again
another dance.
My favorite memories are these:
-Dancing once with a man who in his particular style chose to pause quite
a
few times in the dance and the pauses were I felt to better acquaint
himself
with how I moved, not so much to show off or act a certain way.
-Dancing with a man over the years and finding he had mastered different
patterns. Many men stick to the same safe moves and are very predictable.
Sometimes predictability is comforting and feels great. It's also so
exciting to dance with someone you've been dancing with for years, and
they
have changed their basic moves. Or they are able to go back and forth
between styles with ease.
Thanks,
Cynthia Brown
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:21:14 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Impressing Women
Frank Williams brings up some interesting points about "the rituals and
'conversation' of tango". It is true that neither sex has a monopoly on
trying to impress the other. I also like his analyses of the "dance
chemistry" being separate from "whatever chemistry enables or disables
personal relationships". I agree with his conclusion "best partners and
their dances start with the music and the relationship that matters is built
by and within the music." I also agree with "When the music starts I want
to forget about everything except an unpretentious musical conversation with
my partner. Then the experiments with our 'dance chemistry set' are sure to
be fun."
I would simply say that I have no interest whatsoever in "impressing" my
partners or anyone else for that matter. I find the beauty in tango is in
the experience of a great dance. For me the pleasure is in the act of
dancing. For me, the pleasure is enhanced or diminished by the "dance
chemistry" between the partners at that particular time. No two dances are
ever the same, even with the same partner to the same song. Anyway, I think
it is fairly pointless to try to impress anyone with any artificial
"posturing" or as Frank says"I personally find little gallantry in leading
some kind of sugar-coated showcase". Either it works or it doesn't, that is
about all. IMHO, if I spend any time trying to do anything that is not an
organic and integral part of the dance, I will only succeed in making a "bad
impression". If OTOH, I just dance my best dance, it will almost always work
out great.
Excellent impressions to all ;-)
Manuel
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 23:45:34 -0700
From: "Larry E. Carroll" <larrydla@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Impressing Women
A couple of men wrote in saying they saw no need to try to put out any
special effort for their partners. If they interpret the music well,
dance well, and have fun that experience alone should be enough to
impress the women they dance with.
Some men feel this way because they are lazy, of course. Others would
feel weak and unmanly catering to a woman's needs. And some do not
really care if their partners have fun - to them women are just
convenient meat puppets to fling about, stage props to these men's
quest for a good time.
But there is a good reason for a leader to not pay too much attention
to his partner. Leading a dance requires attention to many parts of
the dance; too much attention to any one of them will cause all parts
of the dance to suffer. And if he has a wonderful time, this emotion
may well infect his partner also.
Still, in the long run, part of being a leader is the responsibility
to judge what his partner can and cannot do, and adjust to her
abilities. If his partner makes too many mistakes, and it is the
leader's fault, eventually the woman will catch on to that. And the
word will get out to other women. Unless the man is utterly gorgeous
he will find it increasingly hard to get women to dance with him - and
maybe even then. Or women will dance with more or less obvious
reluctance.
Ultimately, a man needs to make sure both of them have a good time -
if not because of compassion, at the very least for coldly practical
reasons. In the end, we usually reap what we sow.
Larry de Los Angeles
https://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:15:43 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Men following (was impressing women)
First of all, I don't have any argument with Clayton or Larry about their
chivalry and their desire to treat their dance partners with respect and
care. I do however think that this whole topic is more than just a bit
redundant. The whole idea of the partnership dance of tango is about leading
and following, musicality, passion, etc. By the time anyone has learned the
basic rudiments of tango, one is aware that the man leads, the waits for the
woman to follow and then leads his next move, etc & on.
I do however have a couple of disagreements with the 2 gents in question.
First, I don't like the custom of calling men "leads" and women "follows".
Men are men and women are women and I don't see anything wrong in calling
them by their names. Why is it that we must allways be waltzing (no pun
intended) around the proper use of English?
Secondly, Larry was quite indignant about some of the replies to his thread
(I assume mine was one of those he responded to) and he actually said that
men are lazy if they don't try to impress their partners. Another thing that
crept into the discussion was that these men (who are not out to impress
their partners) were basically egoists who care for no one but themselves.
While he might be right about some men, I wish to respond and clarify my
position on this. I'm not lazy nor an egoist. I very much care about my
dance partners (for goodness sake, I chose them to dance!). I don't have any
problems with treating my partners and the rest of the folks on the dance
floor with kindness, respect and consideration. I also get plenty of
compliments from my partners, so I must be doing something right ;-). The
whole thing here is whether my purpose in dancing Argentine tango is to
"impress" my partner or somebody else. I believe that dancing is much more
that just a vehicle for "impressing" women, it is more than that, much more.
I respectufully submit that dancing skillfully, with musicality and passion
*and* dancing *with* one's partner will certainly impress that partner (and
probably whatever audience one has at that moment). OTOH, getting involved
in performing artificial gestures of chivalry or sugar-coated showcase
moves, is not what Argentine tango is all about. No amount of devices
intended solely to impress a woman will make the man a good A/T dancer.
Cheers,
Manuel
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:20:31 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Men following (was impressing women)
Manuel wrote:
>[H]e [Larry Carroll] actually said that men are lazy if they
>don't try to impress their partners.
Perhaps it is a bit discourteous for me to respond Larry's comments as
reported by Manuel, rather than Larry's original comments, but I must say
that I do not agree that a man must be lazy or selfish if he does not try
to impress his partner. Such a comment largely reduces tango to a mating
rituals. I think there is a much greater range of shared expression
available in tango than impressing one's partner.
As I recall, Larry once wrote that tango is a Rohrshack test.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 06:48:32 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Men following (was impressing women)
Steve wrote:
I must say
that I do not agree that a man must be lazy or selfish if he does not try
to impress his partner.
I think there is a much greater range of shared expression
> available in tango than impressing one's partner.
>
> As I recall, Larry once wrote that tango is a Rohrshack test.
>
Well, and as I recall , Larry wrote that for him, impressing his partner
means, showing her that she can dance, and then he went on to explain all
the little things a man can do to tune into a woman's way to move to make
the dance go more smoothly. Dressing that up as "impressing" was in my
opinion just a word game. A man who does not bother to do any of those
things and just starts dancing without regard to the woman's individual
qualities, is, well, not exactly lazy, but definitely not a good dancer.
Then Larry went on to explain, that the payoff for all this care is the
woman's gratitude for him giving her a good time. Again, what would you call
a man who is not ready to make an effort to give a woman a good time ?
This weekend I went to a workshop with Jorge Torres, and he picked a total
beginner from the group and made her dance with him. Very slowly, very
gently, occasionally stroking her hair and telling her that there was no
need to be nervous. Then he explained that it is the man's responsibility to
go down to the woman's level of dancing, if she has less experience than
him, because this is the only way to make it work.
Astrid
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:51:59 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Men following (was impressing women)
I agree that most couples must typically dance tango at the level dictated
by the less skilled/trained/experienced partner, and creating an enjoyable
experience for one's partner is part of dancing tango. Nonetheless, I
hestitate to identify a skilled male dancer who dances for his partner's
enjoyment (as well as his own) as motivated by "impressing women." I do
not see it as dressing up the argument. Rather I see it as reducing the
argument to a less sublime level.
Someone could easily counter that some men choose to impress women by
creating an enjoyable dance for her, while others do so through fancy
steps. Of course, the proof is in repeat dances....
I recognize that all social dancing has a very strong element of mating
ritual to it, but also I think that a couple dancing tango is capable of
expressing a much wider range of human experience and feeling--to touch at
the hearts and souls. Consequently, I have reservations about the use of
words "impressing women" to recycle arguments that have been advanced on
this forum many times.
I also have some reservations about an instructor plucking a beginning
woman out of a class and demonstrating the ability to dance with her. It
can be a way to assert dominance. It can also give the wrong message to
the students. It can tell the male students, "You are not good enough to
do this (but I am)." It can tell beginning women, "You do not have much to
learn (if you dance with someone as skilled as I am)." Within a little
time, the women may begin complaining that the men are not capable
dancers.... and the men may begin to disappear....
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 20:42:53 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: women
Thank you, the guys, for some dialogue
(about women).
And, I am sure, there must be hundreds of
responses from women on the list that I have not
seen yet in the past few hours because I receive
the list in condensed format.
Or maybe no women responded. In a list that
is 1200 strong worldwide.
WOW!
I like tango because I can do whatever I want
in tango. I can either go to the milonga as a
sexy woman, or I can go as a spinster.
I can dance with men either way.
I like it.
Thank you, Deborah in San Francisco, USA
(a town of strong women and beautiful men)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 00:52:08 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <melinda.bates@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: women
OK, I'll comment.
I am enchanted by a dance experience in which I am cherished. The man
understands (delights in) his role as leader. But in order to do that well,
he must first determine what kind of partner I am. Otherwise, the
experience is impersonal :o(
He might as well be doing dancercize.
That first dance in the tanda is where we find out: How's my balance? How
do we fit together? (Osvaldo and Lorena or Mutt and Jeff?) How well do I
follow basic steps? Well enough to try some more interesting patterns? Do
I wait for his lead, or anticipate with my steps :o( How closely do I
choose to hold/be held? Am I animated or subdued tonight? Responsive to
the music? Do I take advantage of his pauses to play?
All these factors, and many others (please fill in your own blanks here)
influence his leading. When a man adjusts his dancing to accommodate me in
this way, he "impresses" me very much. We may or may not be engaged in
romantic rituals, but I'll always delight in dancing with him. And I'm
guessing that dance is as deeply satisfying to him as it is to me. (When
the music ends, and you both stop, speechless and dazed for a moment, in my
book that's a great dance experience!)
happy tangos from a community with many "impressive" men,
Melinda
----- Original Message -----
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:55:16 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Men following (was impressing women)
Hi friends,
This interesting discussion about impressing people, as begun by Larry,
has more or less evolved into statements about the meaning of the dance.
Astrid makes a load of good points and so did Larry. For beginners,
the meaning is doubtless very different from many seasoned veterans. I
would never criticize a leader who remembers their earlier travails and
is sensitive to beginner's issues. One can lead generously or selfishly
at any level, IMHO.
Astrid wrote:
> This weekend I went to a workshop with Jorge Torres, and
< snip >
> he explained that it is the man's responsibility to
> go down to the woman's level of dancing, if she has less
> experience than him, because this is the only way to make it work.
I have one nit to pick here. Getting beginning followers to dance
acceptably is NOT the same as leading advanced followers at a beginning
level. (Duh!) It's a special skill that experience teaches and the
results of which Astrid and Larry sketch from their personal
perspectives. I once asked an unfamiliar partner to dance immediately
after she left the floor with Gavito. From what I saw, I looked forward
to the dance. Whew, was I surprised to find that she couldn't walk or
pivot on her own! I had to re-work the parameters of the dance very
quickly and obviously fell short of that follower's expectations!
[...also proof of Gavito's generosity and skill in that social setting...]
By carefully reinforcing the physically intuitive aspects of tango so
that a beginning follower can move around the floor, you haven't
necessarily made them dance tango. They start to become tango dancers
when you reinforce their taking a chance to somehow express or interpret
the music they hear. To me, providing these kinds of "bait" for raw
beginners is teaching pure and simple, which can feel more like a craft
than an art - enjoyable, hopefully generous, but sometimes lacking emotion.
Best regards,
Frank - Minneapolis
--
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:49:37 -0400
From: elizabeth telson <telsone@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Impressing Women
I'm too new to this, so I hesitate to put my two cents in, but I shall since
I couldn't resist. First of all, although my teachers make me do all the
fancy figures, I actually just adore walking the walk. It allows me to get
a feel for my partner (especially when I am dancing with someone I have
never danced with) and really enjoy the music.
I don't mind completing figures. However, the dance floor has been very
crowded during the few milongas I have been to which leaves very little room
for the fancy stuff. Of course, there always seems to be a couple or two
who must demonstrate their abilities.
I know this may sound strange, but you can blame it on my newness. I
actually prefer to dance "serious" stuff at the practicas after classes as
opposed to when I go to milongas. I'm not a "show" dancer although my
teachers do run me through the paces at class. When I dance on my own time,
I like it simple so I can enjoy the atmosphere and the melody rather than
concentrate on what fancy stuff my partner plans on leading me through.
Since I am so new, I realize the few I have danced with are trying to
ascertain where I am, I suppose, as far as my abilities. I must say they
have been wonderfully supportive and in spite of my beginner status, they
have gently pushed the envelope at times which, in the long run, is to my
benefit -- (let's me know I can do the fancy stuff if I have to -- smile).
I know that may sound selfish and naive to the more experienced dancers, but
that's just me, and that's my two cents (smile)
Truewater2@icqmail.com
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:02:30 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Impressing Women
>I'm too new to this, so I hesitate to put my two cents in, but I
>shall since I couldn't resist. First of all, although my teachers
>make me do all the fancy figures...
>I don't mind completing figures. However, the dance floor has been
>very crowded during the few milongas I have been to which leaves
>very little room for the fancy stuff...
>I'm not a "show" dancer although my teachers do run me through the
>paces at class...
>When I dance on my own time, I like it simple so I can enjoy the
>atmosphere and the melody...
Why on earth are you learning fancy figures if you enjoy the
atmosphere, melody and simple walking steps?
If your local milongas are crowded, why don't your teachers teach you
what works on your local social dance floor?
There is no reason to study show tango if your goal is to dance socially.
It sounds like your teachers are "making you do" what THEY like to
do, rather than teaching you what you want...let alone teaching what
actually happens at a milonga.
A high percentage of the traveling Argentines have their primary
credentials as stage tango dancers. Many of the teachers around the
US were attracted to tango as a performance art, not as a social
dance.
Teachers don't always explain what is social tango and what is
performance. It is like the ballroom studios that teach some kind of
exhibition salsa, and then when you go out to the local latin club,
and people look at you like, "What planet did you come from?"
You don't say what city you live in, but if your milongas are that
crowded, then probably you can find different teachers.
Here's a suggestion:
Look for the better dancers who have a style that is more like what
you want to do.
Watch the women as they dance with the men. Are there quiet smiles on
their faces? Are their eyes closed in a dream world?
Ask the women which of the men dance the nicest.
Ask them who teaches it like that.
Life's too short for bad tango dances.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:13:24 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Bashing teachers (was: Impressing Women)
> >I'm not a "show" dancer although my teachers do run me through the
> >paces at class...
Oh right, here we go again "my mean, awful teachers are making me learn that
*evil* show tango"
> >When I dance on my own time, I like it simple so I can enjoy the
> >atmosphere and the melody...
Seems like you already know what you want and already know how to dance. You
could easily correct your situation, why are you posting your complaints to
the list?
Now, Tom Says:
> It sounds like your teachers are "making you do" what THEY like to
> do, rather than teaching you what you want...let alone teaching what
> actually happens at a milonga
snip
> Teachers don't always explain what is social tango and what is
> performance. It is like the ballroom studios that teach some kind of
> exhibition salsa, and then when you go out to the local latin club,
> and people look at you like, "What planet did you come from?"
The problem here is that *teachers* are getting painted with a broad brush.
There are many excellent teachers doing their job all over the US and the
world. Why always focus on the alledged missdeeds of a few folks (who do not
even have the chance to present their side of the story) and cast aspersions
on many people?
> You don't say what city you live in, but if your milongas are that
> crowded, then probably you can find different teachers.
Now, that is a good suggestion. If indeed you really need more teaching,
find somebody better suited to your predilection. If you are not pleased
with your teachers, tell them, not the tango-l. If they are professional
they'll listen to you and teach you what you want. If they can't or wont,
vote with your feet and go somewhere else.
Cheers,
Manuel
